A In the second lino of paragraph 6 the word "frequently". The last word in the third line from the end of paragraph six there is the word "in charge" which has already been mentioned. Paragraph 7, third line at the end, "spotted fever" again. In the 4th lino "in order to contrast". In the 7th line "previous" - the third word. Paragraph 8, the last word in the first line "purposes".
Q In other words "for the purpose of"?
A Yes. Then in the 4th lino of paragraph 3 "human beings". I had not hoard of this expression before the trial. I thought the translation for "menschen" was people.
Q Did you understand what the word "human" or "humans" meant?
A Not "human beings".
Q Did you understand what the word "human" or "humans" meant?
A It says "human" here.
Q Did you understand what that meant?
A Yes, I understand that.
I know the word today, of course.
Q Did you know it then?
A I didn't know what "beings" meant, that "human beings" was the same thing as people.
Q But you did know what "humans", h-u-m-a-n-s, meant?
A Humane?
Q Very well.
A On page 3, the last word in the second line from the bottom "request". And, the last word on the page "referred". On page 4 the word "notified" in the second line. "Request" the first word in the 4th line I have already mentioned. In the same lino "at random". I never hoard that in my life. And the last word in that lino "roster". In the 7th line "event". In the last line "requested" again. In the 9th line "substitutes" and the next word in that line that I didn't know was "provides". The 10th line "victims". In the 11th line "approval".
In the 12th line "check to ascertain". And the last word in the paragraph "requirements". Paragraph 9 on page 4, the last word in the heading "extermination". And the third word in the first sentence "aware". In the second line the word "extermination" occurs again. The first word in the third line "deficient". The sane word occurs again in the 7th lino. In the 10th line the word "extermination again. In the 11th line at the beginning of the sentence "accordance". In the last line on this page the word "extermination" again.
Page 5, first sentence "exterminated". The first three words in the third line "issue falsified statements". Paragraph 10 the last word of the heading "means". In the 5th lino the word "average" and the next word "hence". In the same line the word "envied". In the 7th lino the word "traitors". In the 8th line the word "grapevine". In the 9th lino the word "traitors". In the 10th and 11th lines the word "statements" is repeated. Paragraph 11 the third word "instance I supervise".
Q Now, just what is the word "instance" or the word "supervised"?
A Both.
Q In the 7th line, paragraph 11, "performed" .
On page 6, in the 5th line "supervision" and "means" in the 5th line.
Q And then, I Believe you said, at the Saturday session, that in the final paragraph Below Paragraph 12 you did not understand the words "affidavit" , "voluntarily" , " reward" and " threat".
A That is right.
Q Did you understand the word "duress" , D U R E S S ?
A I can't say today. It's possible that I connected it with the French word for hard which is "dure" .
Q Very well.
Now, let me ask you this. T here are several words in this paper signed By you which you did not understand at the time you signed the paper. Can you say that you did not understand the import of the words from the general context of the paper?
A I pm sure that I did not understand the full significance. It was read to me and I read it myself, perhaps a little superficially. I knew what it was about, But I did not understand the exact meaning of all the individual words. I Believed at the time that I had understood the meaning But, Because I could speak a little English and could carry on a little conversation, I may have over-estimated my understanding.
Q Very well.
And you say that you did not understand the words "spotted fever"?
A I had never heard it Before.
Q So that, as a matter of fact, wherever the words "spotted fever" appear then the Tribunal is to understand that you did not understand its connotation, is that correct?
A I can not say for certain. I am sure I did not know the word itself, But it is possible that I did understand the context. I can not say for certain. I only know that I did not know the words, but it might be that I did get the meaning of it because there's the word "fever" .
Q You understand then the general connotation of the word "fever"?
A Yes. As I know now, through the trial, this is the wrong expression in English. It should be typhus I have discovered.
Q Then with the words eliminated from this paper you signed, I am going to read into the record the paper or affidavit as it now is is with the deletions which you say were not understood by young.
I believe, Mr. President, that in the Tribunal's final study of this document if it is in the record in this form it may be of some aid to the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: You're right, sir.
JUDGE SEBRING:
"I, Waldemar Hoven, being sworn, depose and state:
"1. I was born in Freiburg in Breisgau on the 10th of February 1903. I attended high school but did not complete my education until many years later. Between the years 1919 and 1933 I visited Denmark, Sweden, United States, and France. In 1933 I returned to Freiburg and completed my high school course end then attended the Universities of Freiburg and Munich. In 1939 I -medical studies and the Waffen-SS as a physician. The last rank I held in the Waffen-SS was Hauptsturmfuehrer. In 1944 I had the Allgemeine SS." Incidentally, for the sake of the shorthand reports, wherever I make a pause will be the place where there is a deletion of a word.
Beginning with the second paragraph:
" 2. In October 1939 I was - an assistant medical officer in the SS Hospital in the Buchenwald Concentration Camp and held, that position until 1941 when I was -- the Medical Officer of the SS troops stationed in the camp. At the end of 1941 I was transferred to the camp hospital and became the Assistant Medical Officer therein. This hospital was for the inmates of the Buchenwald Concentra tion camp.
In July 1942 I was elevated to the position of Chief Physician and thereby had the full responsibility for the innate patients in the hospital. I held this position until September 1943 when I was arrested by the SS Police Court of Kassel and remained under arrest until 15th of March 1945.
" 3. Due to my various positions in the Buchenwald Concentration Camp during this period of nearly four years I became - with all phases of the medical activities therein and am hereby able to make the following statements:"
"FEVER AND VIRUS EXPERIMENTS "4. In the latter part of 1941 an experimental station was established in the Buchenwald Concentration Camp in order to determine the of various fever vaccines.
This department was called the ' Fever Experimental Station' and was under Dr. Ding, alias Schuler.
This experimental station was set up in Block 46 of the camp. The Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS in Berlin, under the command of Dr. Joachim Mrugowsky, received all the reports of these activities and Dr. Ding took orders from Mrugowsky. In the early days, that is, between 1941 and the summer of 1943, Dr. Ding had many meetings in Berlin with Dr. Karl Genzken concerning his work at Buchenwald in connection with the fever experiments. Dr. Ding told me that Dr. Genzken had a special interest in these matters and that he sent him reports at various times. Dr. Ding also said that Dr. Karl Genzken was one of his superiors. From my association with Dr. Ding I understood that Fever Experimental Station' was as follows: Reichsarzt SS Grawitz, Genzken, Mrugowsky, and Ding.
"5. I can that Dr. Genzken gave orders to Dr. Ding in January 1943 to enlarge the experimental station. At this time Block 50 was cleaned out and made into a station for the production of the various vaccines to be used in the experiments at Block 46. From this time on the experimental station was know as 'Department Fever and Virus Research of the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS'. Then in the summer of 1943 Dr. Genzken turned all his duties over to Dr. Mrugowsky and from that time on Genzken no longer actively participated in these matters. I can recall meeting Dr. Mrugowsky in the home of Dr. Ding on one of his visits to Buchenwald.
"6. I was associated with Dr. Ding at Buchenwald, we became 'friendship of expediency'. I discussed matters with Ding and visited his experimental station from time to time. As a matter of fact, Dr. Ding had to go to Berlin for discussions with Dr. Mrugowsky and others nearly three days out of every two weeks, and on such occasions I was the Fever Institute.
However, when Ding went to Berlin, the experiments were discontinued until he returned.
"7. The experiments at Block 46 in the Buchenwald Concentration Camp were conducted as follows: One group of victims were first vaccinated with the fever vaccine and then infected with the fever virus. the effectiveness of the vaccine another group of inmates were merely infected with the fever virus without any vaccination. Between the autumn of 1942 and the summer of 1943 about 500 inmates of the Buchenwald Concentration Camp were used in these experiments. During my time about ten percent of the total number of the inmates used died as a result. heard that a larger number of the victims died after my time; that is about twenty percent.
"8. The selection of inmates to be used for medical experiments in Block 46 by the 'Institute for Fever and Virus Research' was as follows: Whenever Dr. Ding needed for his work, was made to the office of the Camp Commandant and to me for action. Usually a man named Schober, an SS Hauptsturm fuehrer, me to select the necessary number of prisoners for these purposes. In accordance with this I selected various inmates from the camp. They were placed on a list over my signature and returned to Schober, who often removed certain names from the list for political reasons. In the that particular prisoners were removed from the list, I was to select in order Dr. Ding with the desired number . After I returned the completed list to Schober, it was given to Dr. Ding . He made a final , from a medical point of view, the physical condition of the selected inmates and to determine whether or not they met his .
TRANSFER OF INMATES TO THE BERNBURG
EUTHANASIA STATION
"9. I "became in 1941 that the so-called 'Euthanasia' program for the the mentally and physically was being carried out in Germany. At that time the camp commander, Koch, called all the important SS officials of the camp together and informed them that he had received a secret order from Himmler to the effect that all mentally and physically inmates of the camp should be killed. The camp commander stated that higher authorities from Berlin ordered that all the Jewish inmates of the Buchenwald Concentration Camp should be included in this program. In these orders 300 to 400 Jewish prisoners of different nationalities were sent to the 'Euthanasia Station' at Bernburg . A few days later I received a list of the names of those Jews who were at Bernburg from the camp commander and was ordered to of death.
I obeyed this order. This particular action was executed under the code name '14 f 13'. I visited Bernhurg on one occasion to arrange for the cremation of two inmates who died in the Wernigerode Branch ( ) of the Buchenwald Concentration Camp.
THE KILLING OF INMATES BY PHENOL AND OTHER.
"10. In the camp we had a great many prisoners who were jealous of the positions held by a certain few of the inmates, that is, some of the political prisoners held key positions and were able to get better living conditions . Hence, many of the prisoners these positions and made every effort to discredit the men who held the key positions. Such actions became known to the men in the key positions and then such were immediately killed. In each case I was later notified in order to make out the death of the prisoners killed. These did not indicate the actual cause of death, but were made out to indicate that the prisoner died of natural causes.
"11. In some the killing of these unworthy inmates by injections of phenol at the request of the inmates. These killings took place in the camp hospital and I was assisted by several inmates. On one occasion Dr. Ding cane to the hospital to witness such killings with phenol and said that I was not doing it correctly; therefore, he some of the injections himself. At that time three inmates were killed with phenol injections and they died within a minute.
"12. The total number of traitors killed was about 150, of whom 60 were killed by phenol injections, either by myself or under my in the camp hospital, and the rest were killed by various such as beatings, by the inmates.
"The above written in the English language, consisting of five (5) pages, is true and correct to the best of my knowledge and belief. This was given by me freely and , without promise of and I was to no or of any kind."
I believe that completes the affidavit as it is, Dr. Gawlik, with the words omitted that the witness said he did not understand or fully comprehend their import.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Witness, have you recently examined the original of your affidavit?
A. The original? No.
Q. Are you aware of the fact that in paragraph 4 after the words "Spotted Fever Experimental Station" in the document which you have there appear in parenthesis the words "Fleckfieber Versuchsstation", with some other German words, including again "Fleckfieber and Virus Forschung"? Are you aware of the fact that those words appear in German after the English words "Spotted Fever Experimental Station"?
A. Since you remind me of it, Mr. President, I remember. I understood Judge Sebring to tell him what words I do not know and I had never heard the word "spotted fever" before.
A. Are you aware of the fact the words in German which I have endeavored to read appear in your original affidavit?
A. Yes.
Q. Then you understood perfectly well what the words "spotted fever" in English meant, because they were translated in German immediately following those words in English?
A. Judge Sebring asked me what it was. I did not know.
Q. I understand that.
A. I knew that this was about the typhus experimental station, yes.
Q. And when you signed this affidavit, you knew the German words translated "spotted fever experimental station" appeared in the affidavit which you signed?
A. As far as I can remember, I had read "spotted fever". I probably read the German "Fleckfieber and Virus Forschung", and I probably just ignored the "spotted fever".
Q. But those words were in the affidavit in German when you signed it?
A. Yes.
Q. In paragraph 5, beginning with the second sentence it reads in English in the affidavit before you, "From this time on the experimental station was known as 'Department for Spotted Fever and Virus Research of the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS'." Following those words in your original affidavit appear in parenthesis those same words in German, "Hygiene Institut der Waffen SS - Abteilung fuer Fleckfieber und Virus Forschung". Do you remember that?
A. Yes, that is right.
Q. Now, you had every opportunity, witness, to correct your affidavit, did you not?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember making any corrections in it?
A. Yes, I did.
THE PRESIDENT: In the last sentence in paragraph five appears the affidavit as originally prepared, quote, reading the last sentence: "I can recall meeting Dr, Mrugowsky in the home of Dr. Ding, on one of his many visits to Buchenwald." The word "many" is eliminated by a line having been drawn through it and in the margin following that line appear your initials "Dr. Hn". Does that to you indicate that you objected to the word "many" and asked that it be eliminated?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: And it was eliminated and you initialed the margin to show that you had asked that it be eliminated, is that correct?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Referring to paragraph 11, that paragraph begins; "In some instances I supervised the killing of these unworthy inmates by injection of phenol," Following the word "phenol" appear in handwriting the words "at the request of the inmates". Your initials, "Dr. Hn", follow that addition. Does that to you indicate that you requested the addition of those words "at the request of the inmates"?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: It then appears, witness--- Just a moment, there is another addition. At the close of paragraph 2, the last line reads, referring to yourself: "And remained under arrest until 12 September 1944." The affidavit was originally written with that date "until 12 September 1944"; that date was changed in handwriting to 15 March 1945. Is that the correct date when your arrest was terminated, 15 March 1945?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: That addition in handwriting is followed by your initials, "Dr. H.". Does that indicate to you that you corrected the affidavit by asking that the correct date be added?
THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you remember that you were requested to initial with the words "Dr. H." or Dr, Hn." every page of this affidavit?
Every page of this affidavit, as shown in the photostat, at the bottom of the page appear the initials "Dr. Hn.".
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Those were your initials and you initialed every page?
THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Do not the facts which I have just referred to indicate that you read this affidavit very carefully?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, it was read aloud to me and I followed it, as I said on Saturday.
THE PRESIDENT: Does it not indicate then that you paid attention to it when it was read to you and considered the language of the affidavit carefully and made corrections, which you felt were necessary in order to make the affidavit complete and correct?
THE WITNESS: I do not believe, Mr. President, that I read it very carefully. I made these corrections, just the ones that appeared to me and came to my attention, this date for instance.
THE PRESIDENT: Does it not also indicate that the person who read you the affidavit was anxious to have the affidavit prepared exactly as you wished it by adding corrections which you suggested?
THE WITNESS: As to the word "friendly" I objected and no changes were made. This is on page 3, the sixth line from the top; it says "very friendly". I objected to that for "Zweckfreundschaft".
THE PRESIDENT: But other suggestions which you made were followed, were they not?
THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Does it occur to you now, or did it occur to you then, that if there were any words in the affidavit, which you did not fully understand, that the meaning would not have been explained to you?
THE WITNESS: No, I cannot say that. I think the reason was I should have demanded that I be given the affidavit to study it carefully and would be given enough time to read it through. It was possibly my fault;
I failed to make that demand. I had the impression that the man who was making the affidavit was in a great hurry; he kept offering me the fountain pen, and that is why I signed it. Perhaps I was a. little careless. It wa.s also a fact that my interrogator had the impression from what I told him that I spoke English and after a few days he gave me a part of the affidavit, my life history, in German, not in English like this affidavit, but in German. There it was discovered that, although I read the English version of the affidavit before, I saw so many mistakes when I saw it in German that we had to rewrite it.
THE PRESIDENT: I will ask the secretary during the recess to procure the original of this affidavit. I assume it is available in the office of the Secretary General. I would like to see it.
The Tribunal will now be in recess.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. HOFFMANN (Counsel for the defendant Pokorny): Mr. President, I ask that the Tribunal excuse the defendant Pokorny from attending this afternoon's session so that he may prepare his case.
THE PRESIDENT: At the request of the counsel for the defendant Pokorny, the defendant will be excused from attendance before the Tribunal at this afternoon's session in order that he may consult with his counsel in preparation for his defense.
You will return to the secretary the original affidavit and the photostat copy. Counsel may proceed.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. When did you see what the affidavit that you had signed really meant?
A. I saw its precise meaning when it was read into the record. Counsel, I should like to state that on Saturday when the Tribunal asked me to pick out the specific words that I had not known the meaning of, I interpreted that task very strictly, and chose only those words the meaning of which I had not known at that time, and those regarding which I felt any doubt at all, I assumed that I did know the meaning.
Q. Now, you said here that you didn't know the meaning of the word "affidavit". Did you then know what significance this paper that you signed had?
A. I don't believe I knew very well what I was signing, otherwise I should have had it put to me in German.
Q. You have now stated in paragraph number 6, in the second sentence, that you didn't know the meaning of the word "frequently". What you wanted to say was "I discussed the problems with Ding," or rather as it stands in the document, "I frequently discussed matters with Ding."
A. Yes, that is so. It is true that I did not discuss these things frequently with Ding because Ding very soon saw that I didn't know very much about them, nor did they interest me.
Q. What do you have to say about the next sentence. It also says in that same sentence we just mentioned, under number 6, that you visited his experimental station from time to time.
A. Yes, that is so, I did that. Frequently I visited the experimental station.
Q. What was the purpose of these visits?
A. My workshops were there. Moreover, I inquired as to the welfare of the prisoners who were accommodated there.
Q. Please take a look at number 8, which concerns itself with the selection of inmates for the experiments, and please describe now what your activities were in the selection of the experimental subjects.
A. You mean I shouldn't correct the errors in this point 8? I shouldn't discuss this paragraph number 8?
Q Yes, of course, you should and set the matter straight.
A The Gestapo did not or the camp leaders undertake the selection of the experimental subjects. One day a representative of the foreign political prisoners came to me and I was told that there were political prisoners among the experimental subjects, They asked me to see to it that these persons should not be used in the experiments. I think there were two or three prisoners in question. I then went to the SS office, I don't know whether this was the Camp Commandatur or the Gestapo Department. I went to whichever it was. I went to the SS man who had the list of intended experimental subjects and told him that these foreigners, in other words, these prisoners in question were not really suitable subjects.
Q Is it true that because No, 8 contains a lot of words you don't know that it here says something you didn't mean to say at all?
A That is so, but aside from that I had the feeling that the interrogator or the translator did not understand me correctly or did not translate correctly because I never said I selected the prisoners. I did say that the prisoners had asked me to intercede.
Q Now take a look at the sentence that has Schober's name in it and tell us what was his activity precisely?
A It was Schober who wanted to include the political prisoners in the experiments. He was inclined to cross, it says here, he wanted to climate the political prisoners from the list and put in professional prisoners and criminals but it was just the opposite what he did.
Q Please take a lock now at No. 2. To what extent is No. 2 actually erroneous and to what extent does it need further elucidation?
A In October 1939 I became assistant medical officer in the SS hospital but in the Buchenwald concentration camp that is not quite correct because the SS hospital had nothing to do with the concentration camp.
Q What should be differentiated between here?
A The concentration camp is to be kept separate from everything that existed outside of the protective custody camp.
Q Where was the SS hospital?
A It was outside.
Q And as Assistant Medical Officer in the SS hospital whom did you have to treat?
A The SS guards.
Q And did you have anything to do with the concentration camp?
A No.
Q Did you ever enter the so-called protective custody camp?
A No, no one could, because you needed a special pass to do that and only the camp doctors had it.
Q Now take a. look at No. 3. To what extent does No. 3 need to be explained or corrected?
A The same is true here. "Due to my various positions in the Buchenwald Concentration Camp during this period of nearly four years I became acquainted with all phases of the medical activities therein and am hereby able to make the following statement." That is not true, four years, it began in January 1941.
Q And when did it end?
A On the 12 day of December, 1943.
Q What did you become then?
A Then I was taken prisoner by the Gestapo.
Q I come to another point now, other experiments, did you know that in Block 46 experiments were being carried out with yellow fever, paratyphoid, A and B, typhoid, diphtheria, small pox and so forth?
A No.
Q The witness Kirchheimer testified here, page 1325 in the English Transcript, that in Block 46 there were also experiments with yellow fever?
A Of that I know nothing.
Q I shall put document No. 571 to you, Exhibit 285, page 13, correction, page 14, document book 12. These are only reports. From the entries of 10 January and 24 March you can see that other experiments were carried out in Buchenwald. Did you in any way participate in the yellow fever experiments carried cut on 425 experimental persons?
A No.
Q Did you hear anything about those experiments?
A No.
Q Did you select any of the subjects?
A No.
Q Who did?
A I cannot tell you of my own knowledge.
Q Who carried out the experiments?
A I assume it was Dr. Ding.
Q Did you carry out experiments in typhoid and paratyphoid?
A No.
Q Did you select the subject for them?
A No.
Q You know Exhibit No. 265, Ding's diary, did you see this diary during your activities in Buchenwald?
A I did not know the thing existed.
Q When did you first see it?
A During this trial.
Q Was one of the experiments mentioned here carried out by you?
A Not one.
Q According to this diary, page page 48, document book No. 12, from the 19 to 25th November, 1943, four persons were experimented on with incendiary bombs. Where were you during that time?
A I was under arrest by the Gestapo?
Q According to the diary there were also two poison experiments carried out. Where were you at that time?
AAt that time I was also under arrest by the Gestapo.
Q Did you take part in the phosphorous incendiary bomb experiments?
A No.
Q According to Kogan these experiments were carried out in the spring of 1944. Where were you then?
AAlso under arrest by the Gestapo.
Q I shall put No. 571 to you, exhibit 285, page 15, in the document book 12. According to this document a gangrene experiment was carried out on 15 experimental subjects on the 8th of November. Where were you then?
A In the Gestapo jail.
Q How about the blood plasma experiments which Kogon says here were carried out in January, 1944. Where were you then?
A Under arrest by the Gestapo.
Q What do you know about the transfer of blood experiments?
A Nothing, because I was in the Gestapo jail at that time.
Q Do you know Dr. Rose?
A I know Rose was in Buchenwald but I cannot recall ever having seen him there.
Q Were you the doctor who conducted Rose through the experimental station?
A No.
Q Did you ever participate in any way in the experiments in Sachsenhausen which took place on the 26 October, 1944?
A No, I was in the Gestapo jail at the time.
Q Did you cooperate in Vernet's experiments?
A No.
Q Where were you when they were being carried out?
A In the Gestapo jail.
Q Did you have anything to do with the Ellenbeck experiments?
A No, I was at that time in the Gestapo jail.
Q Mr. President, as my next document I shall put in the affidavit by Reinhold Schittenhelm, it is Hoven document No. 14, pages 16 and 17 of the English document book, to attest to the credibility of this affidavit and to prove Schittenhelm has the necessary knowledge I direct your attention to the first paragraph of the affidavit. Let me point out Schittenhelm is a French citizen who was arrested for espionage in 1940 in France and was placed before a German court martial, Exhibit No. 3, your Honor, and that from January 1943 until his liberation by the United States Army was an inmate in the concentration camp. In other words this man is a person who would have no inducement to protect an SS doctor.