DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Tribunal, I am very sorry to have to inform you of the fact that no witness is at our disposal at this moment, because the witnesses whom I applied for have not arrived in Nurnberg yet, neither the main witness, General Vorwaldt nor the very important witness General Westhoff, who could probably inform us of the shooting of Russian officers. These gentlemen at this moment are in either British or American captivity.
The free witness Kalk informed two days ago that he did not come to Nurnberg because he is now the administrator of three hospitals, and he is one of the few who are still in Berlin, so that there would be quite a danger to the population there if he left. As the interrogation or examination of the witness Kalk is quite long, I would have to go to Berlin with my secretary, which would necessitate an interruption of the trial. That is the situation at the present moment.
I have one more request to this Tribunal. I would appreciate it if the Tribunal would see to it that a copy of the English record is submitted to me. In one of the records which I glanced through with my secretary we found quite a few mistakes. We found no fault with the interpreters, but the so-called C-office was translated as "Sea-Office"S-E-A Office, or "Lake Office" and this is quite a serious mistake because one would actually think that this C-office had something to do with the sea distress experiments. They connect this with the sea, and it has no connection with sea but only with the letter "C", in the alphabet .
These mistakes, of course -- I would like to look through them so that when the Tribunal passes sentence, it does not have a report which contains such mistakes.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you got a copy daily of the German transcript?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, indeed I do. I receive it with a delay of approximately five to six days. That is quite usual, though, and I am not com plaining about that.
However, I would like to have an English copy in order to climinate or find out these mistakes, because 1300 A this Tribunal has to base its sentence on the English record and not on the German record.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you wish the English copy from now on, or do you want the back copies?
DR. BERGOLD: I would like to have them from the beginning in order to glance through them and find very serious mistakes. Small mistakes can not be avoided, and I am not blaming anybody about that. In other words, I am not trying to play teacher here. However, serious mistakes which give the case a different meaning have to be clarified
THE PRESIDENT: Your request is reasonable, and it will be arranged that you be furnished an English copy of the testimony, together with the German.
DR. BERGOLD: Thank you very much, Your Honor.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honor pleases, I think the Secretary General can arrange for that.
THE PRESIDENT: From the Document Division?
MR. DENNEY: Through the distribution center, If Your Honor pleases.
THE PRESIDENT: That's Mr. Niebergall.
MR. DENNEY: I believe, Mr. Niebergall. I think the actual physical work and handling is taken care of by Mr. J. Millard, if Your Honor please.
DR. BERGOLD: Thank you very much Your Honors. Thank you very much.
THE PRESIDENT: We're attempting to guess, Dr. Bergold, when this trial will be concluded as far as the taking of testimony is concerned. Can you give us some indication of the number of witnesses which you will call?
DR. BERGOLD: I would like to call General Vorwaldt, Colonel Petersen, General Raeder, that is the Marshal who knows exactly the question with regard to the death sentences, the witness Brandt, who played sick yesterday, the witness Xaver Dorsch, the man with the subterranean buildings, General Westhoff, and today - I just found out about it today I asked for two further witnesses, namely, General-Admiral Schniewindt from Garmisch, and Lt. General Engel from Camp Allendorf. These two gentlemen were present at the Schmundt conference. I just found out their address. The witness Brauchitsch told me their address.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the importance of the inquiry into who was present at the Schmundt conference?
DR. BERGOLD: It has an importance for the following reason: namely if, according to the opinion of the prosecution this slave labor plan was already planned within the framework of Germany or not, it is a question of the conspiracy in the first place.
If I can prove with these witnesses that these Schmundt records are false in quite a few points, then, in my opinion, and I 1302 A also take it that it will lose in your opinion, as well, its probative value.
THE PRESIDENT: Will it be your claim that Milch was not at that conference?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, indeed; he was present. However, the record is wrong. It contains many points which were only written later on in falsification of history, as statements made by Hitler, allegedly, that is. We think that this record was only written in 1940, and it contains a series of wrong statements and could not be used for history; in other words, in order to show that Hitler could see in advance what was com ing. This conference was of different contents than the one on the record.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, your position, then is that Milch was there?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes; it is.
THE PRESIDENT: But what the Schmundt transcript of what was talked about is incorrect?
DR. BERGOLD: That is correct; yes. The prosecution submitted it, and therefore I assume that the prosecution attaches a probative value to it; otherwise I am sure they wouldn't have submitted it. Mr. Denney -- I don't think he would put a task on his shoulders witch is not necessary.
MR. DENNEY: Your Honor, please, all those questions were thrashed out with the Internation Military Tribunal -- it was signed by him, it was found in the German archives, and that is true. Now, I haven't objected to his calling Raeder, to testify with reference to what happened, I haven't objected to his calling Vorwaldt to come in and say he wasn't there, but if we're going to have a long parade of these people coming in and attacking this thing, I submit that it ought to stop.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please this Tribunal, it is correct that members of the Internation Military Tribunal ruled to that effect. However, all those points of evidence which I submitted had not been submitted by the German defense at the time I was in Berlin, in general, about this record, and nobody tried to check up on these records.
Therefore 1303 A I'm of the opinion that if I want to bring now evidence against the accuracy and value of this record, which evidence was not introduced in the first score - and therefore was not examined - then I think that I should be permitted to do so, because, in my opinion, it would be contrary to justice to overrule such an exact evidence.
It cannot be a prejudice, that mistakes that were made by defense counsels in different courts must be used for all future defendants. Milch, at the time, could not defend himself, and the proof that he believes that he can introduce now, he could not introduce at the time. That, in my opinion, should be permitted him, even according to the Charter.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, of course, the fact that some of your witnesses are somewhere in the custody of either the British or American military authorities doesn't help us much in determining when they will be here present as witnesses.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please this Tribunal, I understand that. However, it is outside of my jurisdiction and outside of my possibilities to make a statement to that effect, because this is a matter which concerns the military administrative officials exclusively, as this Tribunal already has asked for the witnesses to be brought to Nurnberg. I do not know the military office which I can apply to, and I can assure you that they wouldn't even listen to me.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, is the conclusion this: That you have no witnesses today?
DR. BERGOLD: No; I have no witnesses for today.
TIE PRESIDENT: What about tomorrow?
DR. BERGOLD: I don't know if anybody will come till the afternoon. I know as little as before. That is the unfortunate thing about it all. We don't get anything at all as defense counsels; we're only put before facts. The witness is here or he is not here; that as all. The witness Raeder, for instance -- he was here, I spoke to him, he was approved by this Tribunal, and in spite of that he was taken away.
All this is outside of my jurisdiction. I only learned about these things when the witnesses already appeared.
1304 A
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honor please, the statement that he has just made about the witness Raeder, isn't so. He refused to call him. He could have called, him, and said "I won't call him."
DR. BERGOLD: Oh, no. Oh, no; that isn't right. The witness Raeder had been granted me, I spoke to him, and before he could be called he suddenly disappeared. Lt. Garrett told me that.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, Raeder is the man who was shipped to Garmisch by mistake, wasn't he?
MR. DENNEY: I thought he was taling about Adamiral Raeder -- he was out here in the hall yesterday.
DR. BERGOLD: No; I'm speaking about Raeder -- Raeder.
MR. DENNEY: Oh, I don't know anything about him. And I must say that we don't have anything to do with it.
THE PRESIDENT: Whom do you mean by "we"?
MR. DENNEY: The prosecution.
THE PRESIDENT: The United States doesn't want to spirit any witnesses army.
DR. BERGOLD: I'm quite sure of that.
THE PRESIDENT: This seems to involve some inquiry that shouldn't be made in open court. If Dr. Bergold and Mr. Denney would be good enought to go from here to the Court's Chambers, we'll see if some of the practical aspects of this difficulty can't be ironed out. Do you expect to learn this afternoon whether you'll have a witness ready for tomorrow morning?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: I'm trying to determine until what time we should adjourn. I think we'll call it tomorrow morning and hope that it won't be time wasted. The Tribunal will recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30.
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal is in recess until 0930 tomorrow morn ing.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 21 February 1947, at 0930 hours."
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the Matter of the United States of the American against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 24 February 1947, 0930-0945 hours, Justice Toms presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.
Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Tribunal, this morning there is one witness at our disposal for examination now, General-Admiral Schniewindt. As far as General Westhof is concerned I must do without him because he does not know anything with respect to what I wanted to examine him. It is for me very difficult to clarify this. The only witness General von Grawitz is in Yugoslavia and all of the people who are in charge of the PWs of the OKW -- I tried to get them over there by Weshof declared that he only joined in March. He told me the name of another witness who is sick in Garmisch whereupon on Saturday I immediately sent my assistant Dr. Milch to Garmisch in order to get an affidavit from him. Further, the witness Dosch and the witness Engl have arrived but I couldn't examine them so far. Therefore, I propose that after the examination of General Schniewindt the Tribunal take a recess until 1:30 this afternoon which would enable me to examine these two gentlemen shortly, and furthermore I suggest that the witness Brandt be brought in this afternoon. He has now declared himself ready to be examined today. I also spoke with Dr. Kauffmann, his defense counsel. He will also be here and he agrees with it. It will be necessary that your Honor discuss the matter with the gentlemen from Court I so that Brandt will be released downstairs and can be used this afternoon.
That is Case I upstairs. That's all we have for today.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you get the affidavit from the witness in Garmisch?
1306(a)
DR. BERGOLD: No. My assistant went there. He will be back today.
THE PRESIDENT: Could you perhaps examine the witness Brandt after you have finished with Schniewindt?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, but, of course, we have to have the permission of the President in Case No. 1.
MR. PRESIDENT: Well, I will arrange with Judge Beals of Tribunal I and we will take Mr. Brandt whenever he can be released. That will depend upon Judge Beals' determination. Are you ready now for the witness Schniewindt?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will bring into the Courtroom Admiral General Schniewindt.
OTTO SCHNIEWINDT took the stand and testified as follows:
THE PRESIDENT: Raise your right hand and repeat after me. I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, will you please state to this Tribunal your full name?
A. Otto Schniewindt.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Bergold, please warn the witness to withhold his answers as you usually do.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes. Witness, I ask you to speak slowly in order to enable the translator to follow you and I will ask you every time that I ask you a question to make a short interval before you answer in order to enable the translators to finish with the translation of your answer.
Witness, when were you born?
A. On the 14th of December, 1887.
Q. What was your position and your rank you last held in the German 1307 (a) Wehrmacht?
A. From the Summer of 1944 I was in the Leader Reserve Fuehrer Reserve -- and prior to that I was Troop Leader.
Q. And your rank?
A. Admiral General -- General Admiral.
Q. Witness, do you remember that during a conference in the Fuehrer's headquarters on the 23 May 1939 you were present?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Witness -- may it please the Tribunal, I am referring to Exhibit No. 3, Document No. L-79, from the Document Book No. 1-A of the prosecution. The so-called Schmundt matter. Witness, first of all I want to ask you could you or can you now state whether Field Marshal Goering, at that time he was Field Marshal, whether he attended this conference?
A. I must state he was there then I would have said the three Commanders-in-Chief of the Wehrmacht branches -- if you ask me was Field Marshal Goering there then I stop for a little while and I can't swear to it.
Q. That is, you cannot say with certainty?
A. No, not with certainty. In any case the whole purpose was to give Hitler's opinion to the leaders of the several branches of the Wehrmacht.
Q. Go into details. Witness, could you give me a general view of your discussion on this conference and the purpose Hitler called this conference?
A. That is a question which I did not concern myself with very much in 1939 and which last year when I was here as a witness, I already discussed with other members of this conference; neither did I discuss the whole idea nor can I draw up exactly what the purpose of this conference was. Some of the ideas were discussed there and their ways and their tendencies by the whole thing was so unclear that at the time together with Grossadmiral Raeder, after the conference I asked myself 1308 (a) What was the purpose of this whole thing together with Grossadmiral Raeder.
I was of the opinion that the idea of the whole was that Hitler had to introduce all the military leaders into the political situation -- that there was a certain tension in there and the tension was to be expected and that everybody had to be ready, militarily, that is, and things would be necessary to be kept under strictest control with regard to the military and political matters within the next few months. He, Hitler, that is, intended to create a special I don't know what he called it -- but it was a student committee, a special conference for studies of various questions. That particular committee was to examine all military questions and issue all of the necessary decrees to the Wehrmacht parts or branches in order to be ready for any event. Fleet Admiral Raeder and I agreed at the time that the latter in the first place was to be considered the sense of the whole speech held by Hitler. At the time he wanted to have this committee in his hand and hold it there and he knew, he was clear about it, that this would be an institute which would enable the Commanders-in-Chief of the Wehrmacht to understand the situation because after all, this could become a control office, so to speak.
That, in a few words, was the tendency. Hitler at the time, of course, endeavored, with respect to this institute, to make it as realistic as possible for the commanders of the Wehrmacht, namely--in my opinion and in Reader's opinion-that severe tensions were to be reproduced, so to speak, in order to convince these leaders of the Wehrmacht of the necessity of such an institution. Of course, at the same time, we spoke of the powers of the various nations--that is, we also spoke of the military power of various nations in Europe at the time, with which there could be friction some time, or where friction could be expected.
Hitler then, in a more or less expert way, gave his decisions on the power of various military units and the power of arms of other nations. However, how precise these statements of Hitler were at that time, I am in no position to say today. In any case, it was a speech which took place within a period of one and a half to two hours, and it was a concept of the whole situation as Hitler imagined it at the time, or as he wanted to suggest it to the military leaders.
Q. Witness, did you gain the impression that the aggression against European countries was already announced by this conference?
A. No, under no circumstances.
Q. Witness, I now come to some details of this question.
According to the Schmundt minutes, Hitler, on the occasion of listing the results of the first World War on warfare, is supposed to have said, under point 4, the following:
"If the Army, together with the Luftwaffe and the Navy, has taken the most important positions, then the industrial production is no longer thrown into the battles of the Army, but is of benefit to the Airforce and the Navy.
Witness, can you remember that Hitler explained his views in that manner at that time, or does the possibility exist that this point of view came up later?
A. Today, of course, I cannot remember which sentence was used, or which words were used, or if such an idea was expressed in this way or in some other way. If this idea was expressed at that time--that is, in May 1310 (a) 1939--I did not know it, and I do not believe it either, because I do not see any logical connection between what at that time was the general idea of the leadership, and the sentence you just read to me.
There is no connection between the two.
However, this problem played a very important part. Approximately after the completion of the war against Poland, in other words, I believe around the time of the Western offensive--it could have been before, prior to that, but it also could have been after that--at that time, for a commander-inchief of the Navy it was very clear that one hope that Hitler had after completion of the war against Poland was to be able to conclude a peace with the Western Powers. After that-namely, when this hope could not be fulfilled--that is why, at the time, Rear Admiral Raeder did not miss one single opportunity, with the Ober Commander of the Wehrmacht or with Hitler himself, in order to make suggestions to them that under all circumstances more rearmament capacity should be obtained in reenforcing the submarine weapons or U-boat weapons. If I tried to remember when these discussions took place, I would like to say it was around March 1940 and autumn 1940. At that time Hitler told Rear Admiral Raeder that if the Army fulfills its duties-namely, to bring the Western campaign to a successful conclusion--then the time would come where greater parts of the armament capacity could be transferred to the Navy and, as far as I can remember, also to the Luftwaffe, namely, the Junker 88 program.
Q. Thank you. Witness, a little further on in the same document Hitler speaks under number 1--it is the next number, after four:
"1. In order to judge the weapons and their effect correctly, for instance: