I certainly do not know of one.
Q Even though you realized that Hitler was leading Germany into stark annihilation and destruction, and even though all the generals were of that same belief, you yet upheld this fetish of an allegiance which was destined, and very clearly so, to bring unparelled misery to the people that you professed to be faithful to?
A Your Honor, I personally did not claim the right to say that my judgment was right and that Hitler's judgment and the judgment of all those who were next to him was wrong.
Q Then, you modify your statement that Hitler was wrong? You say that he might have been right?
A No, no, I am not saying that. What I am trying to say is that it was my point of view that the question whether the head of the state was to be over thrown or not was a matter for the constitution, and that for this eventuality the constitution and the powers of the state contained the means through which in such cases there could be intervention, but then it could not be the task of any individual general to take steps in such questions, which were, after all unlawful.
Q You don't mean seriously to tell this Tribunal that you had constitutional government in Germany and that you would have to await the results of election to displace a man who was leading you into abysmal disaster?
A No, no, that is not what I want to say. All I want to say is that something like that ought to be in existence; such institutions ought to be there, and, of course, apparently it was not possible, although, formally, the parliamentary system had been maintained, and, of course, there were ministers who, according to the constitution -and, this constitution had not been abolished in our country, you must remember, not formally speaking, that is -- who according to the constitution had the duty in their individual spheres to look after the interests of the people to the best of their ability.
Only the soldier in our country had no political functions.
Q We'll sum it up this way, then, and see if you agree with the statements. That although you know as early as November 1941 that Germany was bound to destruction because of having entered a war, although you were more convinced of this when war was declared against Russia, and that no doubt at all remained in your mind after Stalingrad, that your people were doomed to a defeat with all the misery which accompanies it.
2259A knowing all this, you yet continued with all your energies and all your intellectual forces to carry on this war, which could only bring more misery to your people, is that correct?
A. I continued to do my duty as I had sworn to do, and may I , Your Honor, put one question? I have now spent two bitter years thinking it over in activity. What could a man like me have been able to do in practice?
Q. There were many things you could have done. In the first place, you could have discussed with your brother generals how to remove this madman from the leadership of your nation. That is one thing you could have done. You did not line up with the generals who attempted to eliminate that Memicidal maniac in July 1944, did you?
A. No.
Q. No, the only way that you demonstrated your desire to help your people although you know that a continuation of the war could only bring them further misery, was to bring in more slave workers -- to threaten with machine guns , the hangman's noose, whips, and all other dire tortures and eventualities if they did not work. That is the way you attempted to dimish the horrors which were facing your people; is that correct?
A. No, that is not correct.
Q. Tell me one thing which you did which helped your people, to whom you profess such allegiance and whom you say you wished to help, when you know a continuation of the war could only load to the further tortures and horrors which your attorney so graphically described just a few minutes ago.
A. Of course, I could not foresee everything that happened or that could happen. Secondly, I myself considered it to be my duty to use all my force and power to create a home air defense for Germany so that our home country should not be destroyed. Had this plan succeeded, then Germany would have achieved a final position without the home country being destroyed, on the basis of which peace negotiations could have been possible. The awful thing about it all to no is that this effort of mine --- and as I have told you this effort was 2260(a) by no means a miner one -- nevertheless had failed, a thing which I recognized at the beginning of 1941.
At that time, considering the possibilities I had at that time, I had nothing left but to try to retire.
Q. To that extent it merely meant a continuation of the war, only on defensive lines?
A. In order then to make peace.
Q. Now, you say you could do nothing. Could you not have resigned? Could you not have tendered your resignation? Could you not have indicated that morally, spiritually, religiously , honestly, and according to all your conscientious scruples, you could not continue with a war that was encompassing the horrible destruction which we see on all sides of us here in Germany to say nothing of all of Europe?
A. All that I told Hitler personally on 5 March.
Q. Why couldn't you have resigned after Stalingrad?
A. I tried that, but it was not possible. It was not accepted.
Q. Why wasn't it possible? Why couldn't you write out and say, "I, Ehard Milch. Hereby resign"?
A. That was turned down. It was said "It is out of the question".
Q. Out of the question? Why? It was within your power to stay away from the office; you could have stayed away from troops. It wasn't really a matter of papers. It was a natter of will . You could have withdrawn from the war.
A. In that form, according to the military conceptions in Germany, Your Honor, that was an impossibility. A German soldier could not do that.
Q. You would have been executed; is that what you are loading up to?
A. That might not have been the main point as far as I was concerned. It would rave been utterly useless.
Q. Then you were not honest with yourself, because you were convinced that it was unjust war, that it was an incorrect war, that it was a suicidal war, and yet, with all that, you lot every possible energy that you possessed -- and you had many -- to a continuation of that war.
A. Your honor, whether I am convinced of something or not convinced, 2361(a) that is not a question for the soldier, and it is not tho decisive point for him not to do his duty.
Everyone who is a soldier must do his duty. I bad tried many a time to offer my resignation.
Q. You did eventually offer a resignation which was accepted?
A. No, no, I did not clearly make my exit, but through initiating a reorganization of the entire armament program, which succeeded, it was through that that I organized myself out.
Q. Now to another subject: In explaining many extravagant utterances, utterances of fearful punishment to workers, were not meant. What you made these statements because you say that you were horribly depressed; is that correct?
A. About what? I failed to understand.
Q. You say that you were very much depressed, and because of your mental depression you uttered these remarks in anger.
A. That was the exterior cause, the external cause. That was a disease of mine which I bad at the time, which was brought on through that.
Q. You were depressed because Germany was losing the war?
A. Yes.
Q. You were not depressed because Europe had become a slaughterhouse and that human dignity had been defiled as it never had been before since nan know shame; you weren't depressed at that , were you?
A. Oh, yes, those two things were closely connected as far as I was concerned.
Q. You were concerned about what was happening to the human race in general, were you?
A. I was worried about tho entire war and the entire excesses of the affair, and all the dreadful things which this war brought upon us and which it would further bring upon us.
Q. And being so concerned, you would order further excesses against the foreign workers by ordering machine guns and the whip and the hangman's noose?
A. No such order was ever passed on. Never was such an order as much as issued. They were purely figures of speech, without any serious background.
2262(a) I did neither want anything like that in reality, nor did I at any time give such an order.
Q. And do you think that those remarks contributed to the tranquility of the situation?
A. You mean in my case? They were explosions, and somehow they gave me relief.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is recessed until 1330 hours.
AFTERNOON SESSION
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. BERGOLD: If His Honor has no further questions, I would like to put one question.
THE PRESIDENT: Judge Phillips has some questions of the witness.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q. Coming back to Prosecution Exhibit No. 3, Document L-79, which is known as the Schmundt Report, I understood you to say, witness, that you attended that meeting?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Were you there during the entire meeting?
A. Yes, I was present at the entire meeting.
Q. And you heard what was said there?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And, after hearing that, I understood you to say that you had no idea that Poland was going to be attacked, or that war was imminent?
A. Yes. There was no mention of an attack which was to take place. I understood before, after Goering spoke - did I hear that correctly?
Q. I asked you the question, if you did not state on your examination, that after hearing this speech of Hitler's, that you had no idea that Poland was going to be attacked, or that war was imminent.
A. Yes, no mention was made that Poland should be attacked.
Q. Was Hitler's speech read or was it delivered without manuscript?
A. Without a manuscript; it was improvised.
Q. Was the report or stenographer present to take it down?
A. No, there was not.
Q. Did you receive a copy of it after it was written up?
A. No.
Q. You had never seen the so-called Schmundt Report until after this trial began?
A. I saw it in the first Nuernberg trial.
Q. Well, since these trials began?
A. Yes, I saw it during the Nuernberg trial.
Q. I'll ask you if it wasn't divided up - the speech - into various categories, beginning first with what had happened since he, Hitler, had become the Fuehrer in Germany, and then, the other possibilities that could be attained in Europe, then the attack on Poland, then what the struggle would be like, then the question as to whether or not it would be a long or a short war, then a discussion as to England's weakness, then a discussion as to the consequences of what would take place, then a discussion as to the unrestricted use of all resources, then the plan of attack, then the working principles of how ultimate victory would be attained? Now, do you tell the Tribunal that you heard none of those things discussed in this speech?
A. Some of it had been discussed, but in a different sense from what the record says.
Q. Well, do you know who would have made such a record as this and kept it in the German files of the Reich Ministry?
A. I believe there was only one copy, which was with Hitler's staff. I don't believe that anybody else received a copy of the record.
Q. So you want the Tribunal to believe that Hitler would make a false copy of this speech and keep it in his headquarters, and that was the only thing that was done?
A. I say I don't believe that there was another copy, because I never heard anything about it, and Hitler never would issue any reports on his conferences, even in other cases, and it is my conviction that the report was put together later on, after the event, in order to falsify history.
Q. That's your opinion?
A. That is my opinion, yes.
Q. But if the Tribunal finds this report to be true, you were one of the planners, the instigators, and one who started the war, is that correct?
A. I'm not of that opinion.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: All right, that's all.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Just a few more questions. I might say that neither defendant nor counsel must assume that these questions by me are being put hostilely, but only for the purposes of arriving at the truth, for the utmost clarification. As one of you phrased it - I don't quite understand the meaning of the phrase - "You don't like to have the cat run around the hot porridge." I don't know what it means, but I presume it means you want clarification and that is what we are striving at.
DR. BERGOLD: I understood that already this morning.
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q. Very well. Witness, you stated that it was a bad and ugly thing for prisoners of war to be used as they were used in the war?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Yes. And then you explained that Russia had denounced the Geneva Convention and, while that did not permit you to maltreat Russian prisoners of war, it did not prohibit you from using them in the war effort, that is correct?
A. Yes, it is. I'm not sure that the translation came through quite well. May I repeat that the fact that Russia no longer belonged to the Geneve Convention did not permit us to mistreat prisoners but it did permit us to use them for work.
Q. Yes, that is what I said. But how do you explain the use of the Polish prisoners of war and the Italian prisoners of war and the French prisoners of war, prior to the agreement with the Vichy government?
A. In the case of the French prisoners of war, the work concerned, as far as I know, because at that time I was not really connected with GL questions. After the Armistice --
Q. Well, I said prior to the arrangement with the Vichy government. Whatever prisoners you captured before the surrender of France.
A. I don't believe that they were assigned to work before that. Of course, I cannot say that precisely.
Q. Very well, then, let us exclude the French prisoners then, and direct our attention to the Polish prisoners.
A. The Polish prisoners of war, before I became GL, were made into civilian workers. That meant to them the end of their prisoner of war time.
Q. Very well, that's your explanation and that's all I desire. Now, you are not charged with being a lawyer -- not that necessarily is an offense -- but you have made reference to international law in some of your speeches. Now, you sent prisoners of war to Braunschweig which you knew was a target for air attack on the part of the Allies.
A. The barracks was not in Braunschwieg itself; it was about 15 or 20 kilometers outside the place. It was away from the attacks, and that the stay there was quite pleasant is shown by the fact that the troops which were there in the barracks did not wish to leave it, and the conversation quoted here refers to a dispute between one Luftwaffe Department that was responsible for the fighters, and myself who wished the barracks to be free in order to house the workers there.
Q. Well then, if I misunderstood your explanation as to why you sent them there, then there is no point in my pressing it. If I understand, as you say now, that you sent them there because it was such a lovely location, wonderful accommodations, good food, and they enjoyed it, and you did it out of a benevolent and humanitarian impulse and not as a matter of carrying on the war, then of course, there is no point to my interrogation on this subject.
A. Your Honor, the workers were to go there because outside Braunschweig a workshop was to be built near the barracks and that barracks were therefore so suitable, but there was no worry that the barracks would be attacked from the air.
Q. Very well. I will read to you, just because I happen to have the book here and you may or may not be familiar with this provision in the Geneva Convention, that "no prisoner may be sent to an area where he would be exposed to the fire of the fighting zone."
Now, whether living 15 kilometers away from a target is considered within the area or not is a matter of interpretation, and we will leave that subject.
A. May I make one point here?
Q. Certainly.
A. In Germany there was no place where bombing attacks might not be expected.
2268(a)
Q. Very well. Now, you were opposed to the war from the very outset. You said you did not believe in war as soon as 1920 or in that period you believed that a war in Europe would be a madness.
A. Yes.
Q. And yet in spite of this conviction you allowed yourself to join a Party that was war mad; you helped to build up a fighting air force; you yourself participated in 40 sorties; you led an air fleet over helpless Norway and you carried on right to the very end against what you knew to be inconsistent with your principles.
A. When I joined the Party in 1933 nobody said one word about a war. Nobody wanted war. If the Party had said it wanted war, the whole of the German people would not have joined the Party.
Q. You do not believe that Germany was preparing for war? You state that as a fact?
A. I state here that in 1933 and the following years, when the Party -- and even before 1933 --- when the Party received so many members, not one word of war was mentioned.
Q. Did you believe as late as 1937 that Germany was headed for war?
A. I am firmly convinced of that; Germany did not want war.
Q. And in 1938?
A. Even there I believe Hitler was so powerful at that time that his will could decide that question. And I was convinced that at that time Hitler did not want war; that he wanted by bluffing to obtain the extension of Germany.
Q. Well, you did not believe that Germany was prepared for war as late as 1933 and the early part of 1939?
A. That is my opinion, yes. Germany was not prepared -
Q. Germany was not prepared for war and yet Germany defeated Poland in 18 days; defeated the British forces in six weeks; overran Holland and Belgium in a few days; brought France to her knees in two months; defeated Denmark and Norway almost immediately, and this was all done without any preparation for war?
A. I didn't say that Germany wasn't armed. Germany had rearmed but armament does not necessarily mean that you intend war. According to the dictum, "Para Bellum" if you want peace, prepare for war. If you want peace, prepare for war. Be armed. That is how I thought the armament was meant. When I say that Germany was not prepared for war, events of this war proved this; that Germany was far too weak for a war because the politicians had to expect that they would not only have to fight a small part of their enemies; that even the more powerful nations than Germany would join in such a war. That had to be expected after the experiences of 1914, and against such a power Germany was not prepared.
I could give you any amount of examples of this, but I don't think that we have enough time for that.
Q. Very well. Now -
A. If I may say one point? All of us were extremely surprised that Polish resistance was so small and even more surprised that the French Army, which was numerically equal to the German Army, should have attacked us at the same time when we were busy in Poland.
Q. So when you saw that you could pluck one fruit easily, you then decided to pluck fruit from the whole orchard of Europe?
A. War went on, in the West in the spring, but all I can say, I personally had no influence on these events.
Q. You were a Field Marshal. How many Field Marshals were there?
A. I became a Field Marshal after the French campaign, and at that time twelve were appointed after that campaign.
Q. How many generals were there?
A. I am not able to give you the figures in detail, several hundreds I should say.
Q. Several hundreds. How many Hitlers were there?
A. One.
Q. One Hitler. Now all you generals and field marshals combined, with the reins 2270(a) of the war wagon in your hands.
Were you unable to unseat Hitler if they had a will to do so?
A No sir, that was not possible; firstly, because the German people at that time believed in Hitler. They had no idea what Hitler was to do later on, and the German people would never have understood if anything had happened to its Hitler, and the generals never discussed this point during the war. There was no conspiracy among the generals, not even against their own government. If I said this morning, that after Stalingrad there was the general conviction among the higher officers that the war would end badly, we did not discuss it at the time, but only when I was taken prisoner when I discussed this with other generals, I heard that they shared my view at that time.
Q So you were willing to follow this man ever the brink of ruin, rather than to do something to save your country and your people?
A I believe I said with emphasis, and I personally know that it is so, that I did what I could within my power in order to influence Hitler directly or through my superior officer, Goering, to give him my clear opinion irrespective of my person or what would happen to me. That I regarded as my duty as a soldier and a Field Marshal, but it was not my duty as a soldier for myself alone to start an action which would have been against my oath.
Q To whom was your oath?
A I swore this oath to Hitler and -- and to the German nation.
Q To one human being with all the frailties -
A The oath also applied to the whole of the German people. The German people had to have a chance to express their opinion, and as long as the German people followed Hitler, I could not leave my national community. Apart from that it would not have served any purpose if I had taken a step which you described this morning; nobody would have heard a word about that. The German press propaganda wireless would have referred with one word to it, that a general differed from his leaders and took the consequences.
Q It occurs to me, and we will leave the subject after this question, that with all your abilities and your energies, if you had hurled yourself into a movement to stop the war, as you directed all your efforts toward carrying it on, mercilessly, that you could have eventually convinced many of your brother generals who already shared your opinions to do something to throttle the man who in turn was strangling Germany.