In other words, there can't be any connection between the two, and therefore I assume this because the figure as such was not known to me.
Q. Then below that Gablenz says, "We should not be sorry if Sauckel not only took care of getting the workers but also of distributing then. That way we would fare better."
A. Yes. Well, by that he means Sauckel assorts that he had brought in so many people; however, we would appreciate it if he could possibly take care of the distribution as well. That at least would mean something to us. However, there seems to be some sort of doubt here as far as Sauckel is concerned.
MR. DENNEY: The next document, if your Honors please, is NOKW 412.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Mr. Denney, before you reach this one, I would like to put a question to the witness.
MR. DENNEY: Yes, your Honor.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You state that you did not mean what you said there in language that was quite clear that you would have so many people shot if they failed to do certain thing.
THE WITNESS: No, I never thought that or even intended to do that.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Curiosity consumes no as to what would happen if an officer inferior in rank to yours took you at your word and actually executed a number of these workers or prisoners of war. Would that officer then be punished?
THE WITNESS: No one was there who would have been in a position to do so. Apart from that all those who were under my orders knew me and my way of handling things.
They know exactly that I didn't mean it the way I said it, and apart from that they always laughed about my remarks if I ranted against the above mentioned.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: In other words the comment of the Field Marshall in a matter of this seriousness was really of no value?
THE WITNESS: Because the people knew that I get excited very easily about certain things, and these incidents here have been selected and sub 2124(a) mitted, of course, from every one of these meetings which took place twice a month, for instance from Flick's report and from some of the ether reports, maybe once or twice.
The nature of many of the reports which I received caused some of those outbursts or explosions, and then I used to fly into a rage as soldiers would, that is, I would just get mad, that is all. However, I never intended to carry out any of these threats and I spoke to my subordinates about this occasionally. They pointed out to me that I used such strong words. They knew exactly from my words that this was not meant seriously. They knew exactly that no suck order had been given and that no one over was punished at my instigation, not even then whom I perhaps would have been justified, if only for the very simple reason that I did not have the authority to punish.
THE PRESIDENT: You want to ask a question?
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Mr. Denney read this paragraph to you, Exhibit 140. I understood you to say this, that the paragraph did not contain your attitude there, that you never gave suck an order, that when you were worried you sometimes used strong language as a soldier would. Didn't you say that?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Well, now, whether you meant it or not, you did say these things, and by so doing you counselled and advised others under you at a meeting which you presided over to do suck things. Whether you meant it or not you did that, didn't you?
THE WITNESS: No, I never gave an order by using such words because my people spoke with me, and after all they implied from my words that I never meant them seriously. 2125
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Didn't you say, "I would hand the workers together and have fifty percent of then shot. I would then publish this fact and compel the other fifty percent to work by beating if necessary." Did you say that or not?
THE WITNESS: I do not remember to have said that. However, three days ago I believe I said that I never knew afterwards when I had such 2125(a) outbursts of rage because I had that rusk of blood to my skull owing to that injury I had, and I couldn't remember what I said at that particular moment.
I just burst out in rage.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Well, if you did say that, you were advising and counselling others to do that, were you not?
THE WITNESS: No, that was not a counsel or an advice to any one, on the contrary. I was known for the fact that if someone had done suck a thing I would have intervened and taken care of the matter.
Q. (By Hr. Denney) Did you attend a meeting of the General Luftzeugmeister on 18 August 1942?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Document NOKW-412, which we offer as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 141 for identification, being a partial translation of an excerpt from the General Luftzeugmeister Conference of the 18th of August 1942. The defendant is speaking. "As soon as the figures for August are ready I request an exact account for my report to the Reichsmarshall and also for the conferences which I want to hold with Sauckel and Spoor beforehand. This account is to show how the labor question has developed, how great the fluctuation is and which nationalities it involves, what real requests we now have to make in the different sectors in order to cover tho needs for specialists and for skilled and unskilled labor, low many of them are foreigners, etc. What happens to those who leave the industries. Are they being compelled to work elsewhere? Are they, as I proposed, under control in the camps supervised by the SS and considered as being in mild concentration camps or are these gentlemen allowed to remain outside and do as they please?" You were referring to labor figures there, were you not?
A. I an referring to various things here. I wanted to have a general synopsis with reference to the extraordinarily bad labor situation, and I wanted to got help from Goering because we did not get enough workers, and therefore I wished to discuss it with Spoor also --- hero I come to a special part which can be soon from the last few pages -namely that a part from the general labor question the fluctuation was also being discussed, and the term fluctuation includes also the slackers or shirkers. Those are people I wanted to have taken care of by the SS, namely these 2127 (a) people who are idling away their time and who do not wish to work, but also in the case of this question nothing ever was proposed to the higher-ups or instigated by us.
Q. You say here how many of them are foreigners?
A. That applies to a compilation having the nature of a statistic, and I want to report to Goering on this statistic. These foreigners have nothing to do with the slackers I mentioned before.
Q. Did they submit the report to you, which you request here?
A. No, I can't recall that.
Q. Well, you said that this was a very grave question, the trouble between the workers, and you were going to take it up with Goering, with Sauckel and Speer.
A. Well, will I have to look it up, whether there had been a discussion with Goering with regard to this question. We have occasionally tried by telephone to obtain a definite date, however, we never succeeded in getting it.
Q. You don't have any present recollection of having seen Goering about this?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Now, perhaps you can tell me what a mild concentration camp is?
A. These were the camps mentioned before, whore people were sent to for a period of two months to be "educated" that is only slackers. At least these people aught to have been sent there. That camp was some kind of institution which according to information from the SS existed theme, however, we never sent such people to these camps.
Q. How did you learn of these mild concentration camps?
A. I know that at the Fuehrer headquarters once, at quite a large gathering, I believe Himmler was there himself -- it was said that the problem of the slackers had been solved because he took care that in his special camps, the supplementary rations over and above the normal rations were only given to the worker on condition that they achieve a normal output.
If they had mild concentration camps they must have had concentration Camps that were less mild.
A. No, that has nothing whatsoever to do with that. That is just a term used here once with no significance whatever.
Q. The only kind of concentration camps you knew about were mild?
A. I repeat, I have only seen the concentration camp Dachau, in 1935. That is the only thing I know about a concentration camp, and the only thing I saw of a concentration camp in all that time.
Q. You never heard about anybody being sent to one?
A. Sent where?
Q. To a concentration camp.
A. Well, of course I knew as well as everyone else in Germany, that people were being sent to concentration camps. They had to be sent there.
Q. What kind of people were in concentration camps?
A. I cannot give you any information about that. I do not know that. I only Can say that of the people I have seen in 1935.
Q. What kind of people did you see in 1935?
A. Criminals, political prisoners from the SA, for the most part.
Q. Did you see any Jewish people there?
A. Yes, indeed. We saw one or two barracks with Jews. However, they also had long sentences. However, I particularly emphasized that I had not seen everything, and do not believe that in 1935 anyone had been locked up yet because of their race or belief, and I assume that this occurred much later as a natter of fact.
Q. You said in 1935 you saw two barracks of Jewish people?
A. I said one or two. I can't remember very well.
Q. Let's say one then. They were segregated, the Jewish people at Dachau, in 1935, weren't they?
A. I think so, yes, they were segregated into groups according to the nature of their crimes. That Was as far as I can recall.
Q. You knew throughout the war the only people who were in concentration camps were political offenders similar to the members of the SA who probably were put there as a result of the putsch involving herr Rhoen, or continual offenders, or were criminals.
A. I believe that they were segregated according to the type of crime. I didn't say that two barracks were only full of Jews, but I said that there were also Jews in one or two barracks.
Q. Well, will you answer my question then? As far as you knew to the end of the War the only people who were in concentration camps were political offenders similar to the people they had there following the Rhoen putsch or people who had committed offenses similar to that or they were criminals who had committed very serious crimes?
A. I can again repeat only that I cannot toll you, that I did not see it, and that nobody ever told me who in particular had been sent to these camps.
Q. Did nothing ever come to your attention before the end of the war which gave you any information as to who was being sent to concentration camps?
A. With reference to such questions many things were said but nothing was authentical, nothing was clear. Nothing but rumors.
Q. Well, perhaps we Can pass to another document. The next document is--were you at a meeting of the General Lufzeugmeister on 26 August 1942?
A. No, I was not, at least not according to ray notes.
Q. Your notes could be wrong.
A. Of course, it is quite possible that I have omitted something. I couldn't swear to that. However, on that day I noted many other things which enable me to recall these events quite clearly.
Q. This is an excerpt from the conference of the Generalluftzeugmeister on 16 august 1942 which the original records show was presided over by the defendant. It is Document NOKW-416, and it is offered as Exhibit Number 142 for identification. On the first page Frydag is speaking; "Another Important consideration is the letter which you yourself have signed, Field Marshal, dealing with the expiration of the labor contracts of the foreign workers. The investigation has shown that, for instance, the firm Junkers Aero Engines loses 38% of its foreign labor on account of the expiration of the labor contracts, while the IFA loses 34%, the Hakenfelde plant for aeronautic instruments 42%, the United German Metal works 17%, Arado 18%, DaimlerBenz, Genshagen 26% and Heinkel, Rostock 10%."
And then you spoke: "The Reichsmarshal wanted to bind these people by law at one time; that was one idea. The Fuehrer's plan would be more favorable. Re wishes that these workers be gradually all replaced by Russians for whom there is no longer such a thing as expiration of contracts."
Then someone interpolated, "But there is a certain transition period."
Then Brueckner spoke up: "You, Field Marshal, have yourself put your signature to this matter. The contracts are to be extended until 1 October 1943. I hope that it will be done." Do you recall that?
A. I remember the fact itself. I remember that I had made a metion, through Goering in this particular case, that from that source negotiations should be taken up with all those laborers whose contracts would have expired. You can see from the words mentioned by Brueckner how important this question is and he mentions our request to extend the contract at least until the 1st of October, and Brueckner says that he hopes that it could be done.
Q. The extension in all cases was, of course, voluntary?
A. It should be voluntary, yes, because the fact that the contracts expired and the ensuing calamity sufficiently proves that the contracts in question wore voluntary contracts That is, if the contracts were initially entered into voluntarily so far as the workers were concerned, they were voluntary?
A. Yes, otherwise they couldn't possibly terminate their contract it says explicitly here by expiration of labor contracts." They were voluntary contracts which at the time as far as I can remember, had boon signed for a period of six months. That was a very short time because the people in question had to be trained at first and then we had the bad luck that at a given date a particularly large number of the workers terminated their contracts and it was quite natural therefore that we could only suggest that these contracts be renewed or extended.
Consequently we expressed the desire for a minimum length of time as of 1 October. From Brueckner words, "I hope that it will be done," can be seen clearly that this was not for us to decide, but that he just hoped that this matter will be dealt with favourably by the competent agencies.
Q. Well, then we go on. Frydag says: "An altogether false picture is given by the file note according to which 403,000 workers have been assigned while in reality we have only an asset of 60,000. That is another piece of luck for if we had not got the 90,000 FL workers free, in spite of the assignment we would still have a deficit of 30,000 for the entire Luftwaffe."
And then you said "it is true that a number of these people have been drafted Into the armed forces, but I consider the others I'll arrive all the same at a monthly total of about 30,000 who slack and move around from job to job. According to the suggestions of the Relchsmarshal these people are to come under the c care of Himmler and are to be handled quite severely there. What has been done so far in this regar? Brueckner you know about this matter, don't you?"
2133a Brueckner:
"Yes."
"You do not seem to be informed quite correctly. Some time ago we were quite irritated about the fact that so many workers move about from one factory to another, most of them are anti-social elements who do not like to work and whom the firms are possibly glad to get rid of because they do nothing but complain and grumble, do no proper work, are constantly late, shirk work where they can, pretend to be sick, etc. These people were supposed to be handled more severely and about a year ago the Reichsmarshal issued an order and gave the Ministry of Labor the job of dealing with this matter firmly. Then the Ministry of Labor issued an explanatory order which was nothing but a sabotage of the order and tie desire oppressed by the Reichsmarshal, I reported to the Reichsmarshal in the very words which I have just used -- that in this case his will was clearly being sabotaged by some lawyers or other poor fellows and that I asked him to take measures against it. He told me that he would talk the matter over with Himmler. That is, I had suggested to him that this matter could only be settled with the help of Himmler's organization. The armed forces are not in a position to do it. The suggestion had been made that the armed forces should take care of these people in camps but these workers are not ready for that. They have not been condemned and in no way violate the existing laws, but act only against their country which certainly does not yet come within the sphere of the old legal nonsense. That is why Himmler should get these people into his clutches because he can treat them inside the low. My suggestion was that the people should be put into the camps or, in part, just get numbers. The person involved could have a passport in man has been ill, or late thirty times in one month, then the SD takes him along and gives him a job in which he has to work fourteen hours a day and where he is treated in the way he deserves if he is not willing.
The Reichsmarshal has approved this suggestion. Nevertheless I have not yet seen anything of the kind being carried out."
Brueckner; "I know that such labor camps have been established."
Milch: "In that case I want you to tell me exactly during the next conference where these camps have been established, who is in charge of them, and how do we get these honorable gentlemen who do not want to work into them. In the Luftwaffe alone there were 30,000 last month. If we take the same figure for the army we have already 60,000. If you look at the total loss Germany has about 100,000 of these anti-social creatures who run around free, doing their duty neither at the front nor as workers at home. It is a simple matter to have these people t ken care of somehow by the SD. It has only got to be taken in hand. I want to have a report on it as soon as possible. Otherwise I will talk to Himmler about it myself and see that this matter is taken very firmly in hand. I see in these people the greatest danger for the home front."
Do yon recall saying that?
A. Not those actual words, and here again the experiment counts. However, I believe that in no place was it expressed in such a clear manner what kind of people these people were, and I believe that there is no other country in the World which, with reference to its own citizens who commit sabotage actions during the war, would not hold at them very firmly, because not only the loss of laborers is concerned here and to be regarded, but also the very bed example which these people give and this above all, the change of the good morale of millions of good people.
I repeat that they are criminals and pimps, and moreover as far as the rest are concerned, this order Was not addressed to us but to the Labor Ministry, as I found out later on; namely, by Goering himself.
And the Labor Ministry didn't do anything about this natter but they suggested to us 2135 (a) armament office, that we should institute camps on our own.
That was not our "business, however, because the Labor Ministry had to assign the people and also to care for them. That they wanted to drag us into this matter was wrong.
Q. Well now, you told. Brueckner to get you a list of how many of these camps had been established and who was in charge of them and how the people got into them. Brueckner told you that he knew the camps had been established.
A. I think that this was never put into execution because I told Brueckner later on, "This is none of our concern. We will not have anything to do with it."
Q. When did you tell him that, right after the meeting?
A. I think so because I know that this was never submitted to me and that we did not deal with that question apart from the fact that we used a lot of strong words about it. The question of the slackers, according to my recollection, went on until we gave it up later on because we, on our part, could not do anything about it.
Q. Did you tell the rest of the people at the meeting to nay no attention to this?
A. The other people had nothing whatsoever to do with it,and they did not receive any order to do so.
Q. What did the camps do then? Did they just sit around until the end of the war?
A. Yes, well, they had to discuss other things. This was just on the side. The main purposes were material questions, execution of our material program, or of our research program and to discuss these points.
Q. Well, what about these camps that had been set up that you asked Brueckner to investigate?
A. No such camp was ever instituted with us.
Q. Now, over on page 2102, it seems you have a little bit different idea about the extension of these contracts - page 6 of the original, your Honors.
You are speaking again and you say here: "You must get as many Russians in as possible. For a time compulsory extension of the contracts may help. But they cannot all be forced, for instance, it is not possible with Italians, Hungarians, and Rumanians. Furthermore, it has to be considered that the workers become unwilling and bad tempered when they are forced. Fundamentally you have always to reckon on an additional 20% in this distribution which includes altogether 43% foreigners, on account of the poor wartime capacity of these people. The desired output, after all, is based on the normal working power of a German. You have to add 20% in order to achieve the same result."
Ceyka: "We could always lower their rations in their home countries a bit; then they would have more incentive to work here."
And then you speak: "Yes, they must be better off here than at home. Verwald, you will clear up the matter of the 177 with Heinkel."
Vorwald: "Yes."
"When should the planes get to Oranienburg?"
Vorwald: "In September."
"Tell these gentlemen that I will accept no excuse if the planes do not come in September."
Frydag says: "He can make it by September, with the people from the concentration camps."
And then you say: "He could have had the people from the concentration camps half a year ago. That goes to prove how sleepy even normally active firms are if something new is involved."
Apparently you were going to extend the contracts of the Russians compulsorily. You weren't going to give then an opportunity if they, in fact, had any contracts.