THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will admonish the witness to answer the questions as simply as possible, and the Tribunal also admonishes Mr. Denney to watch his rising blood pressure.
MR. DENNEY: Mr. Denney apologizes to the Tribunal for the rising blood pressure.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q The report on the experiments which were made in Nurnberg in October 1942 was put out under your direction, was it not?
A. In the year 1943, the report was drawn up in my office. By the middle of February, it was not yet ready when I wrote to Himmler.
Q. On the printed report it states, "Published by the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe and Sponsored by the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe."
A. Under my direction, on my responsibility, the report -- the meeting was held.
MR. DENNEY: This is Document NO-288, which will bear the Exhibit No. 130. Letter dated 6 November 1942, signed by Sievers. He writes, "To the Reich Business Manager of the Ahnenerbe." And it has to do with the transfer of Dr. Rascher to the Waffen-SS.
"The various experiments conducted by Dr. Rascher in Dachau in connection with the 'Ahnenerbe' show that:
"1) the fact that he has to be detailed from the Luftwaffe in each instance;
"2) the fact that, in addition, the assistance of the Luftwaffe has to be requested "cause increasing difficulties.
It can really be called a regular tug of war, through which, it is true, we have so far always succeeded in carrying out the experiments ordered by the Reichsfuehrer-SS. Recent developments show, however, that this situation is unbearable, and it appears more and more that the competent offices of the Luftwaffe do not like the experiments, the importance of which is at once obvious, to be carried out by the SS. This attitude appears clearly in the letter of 10 October 1942 from the Chief of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe, Professor Dr. Hippke, to the Reichsfuehrer-SS. Further evidence: During the conference, 'Hardships of the Sea and Winter' of the 26 and 27 October 1942 in Nurnberg, the report was delivered mainly by the Stabsarzt of the Luftwaffe, Professor Dr. Holzlohner, who was absolutely opposed to human experiments, but who tried to claim for himself the credit for the SS experiments in Dachau.
"The chief of the German Experimental Institute for Aviation Research (that's the DVL), Captain Dr. Ruff, delivered the report on the high altitude experiments before the German Academy for Aviation Research on 6 November 1942 860 A 'because persons who were not members of the Academy could not report' and 'in order to make up for the poor report given at General Field Marshal Milch's.'"As has already been demonstrated, new questions continuously arise from the experiments carried out so far by Dr. Rascher, the solution of which is in the interests first of the conduct of the war, and then of the nation's health in general.
In order to carry out those experiments free from all hindering influences, it would be best to transfer Stabsarzt Dr. Rascher to the Waffen-SS, to put him in the Staff Department of the Waffen-SS with the Personal Staff of the Reichsfuehrer-SS, and to assign him to the Institute for Military Scientific Research."
Signed: Sievers; dated: Berlin, 6 November 1942.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q. Witness, the Tribunal understood you to say that only condemned prisoners, that is, those who were condemned to death were used in any of these experiments at Dachau, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever go to Dachau and see what subjects they were using for these experiments?
A. No, I did not do that myself because both the leaders of the experiments and Rascher, so far as I knew then, were sticking to their obligations in this regard. The situation in which I might have interfered, at the time at which I might have, was only a maximum of three weeks, because the letter to extend these experiments--the letter to Wolff--was written at the end of April, and by the middle of May, Ruff had already told me that the experiments were over. Consequently, I had only a period of roughly three weeks, but I did not go there during that time, nor did I hold it to be necessary since I thought that these experiments were not all dangerous, so there was nothing new about them.
Q. I understood you to say that these prisoners were promised to be pardoned or their lives saved if they went into these experiments voluntarily
A Yes, that was one of the basic conditions.
Q Were any of then ever pardoned?
A Yes. It was told me. How many, I don't know, but it was told me that the prisoners were pardoned and were permitted to take service on the front -- something which they wanted particularly to do. My collaborators told me that.
I, myself, was never in Dachau.
Q. Do you know the names of any prisoners who were pardoned, who went through any of these experiments?
A. No, I don't. Wolff would probably be able to tell you that. He was conducting these experiments.
Q. That is all.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Dr. Hippke, who determined which inmates in the concentration camps were death-deserving and asocial?
A. That must have been decided by the SS. The direction of these experiments lay in Himmler's hands; whom he had commissioned to choose these who volunteered, that I cannot say. I assumed that it was Rascher and the Director of the experiments who knew that.
Q. Well, then, whichever inmates were designated by Himmler as death deserving and asocial were proper subjects for these experiments?
A. No, of those decided on by Himmler, Rascher and the experimental leaders could only make a choice; namely, they could choose volunteers who were condemned to death. The choice was made by Rascher and the man in charge of the particular experiment.
Q. Well, Rascher and his associates merely picked out any men that Himmler had designated as death deserving and asked them to volunteer for these experiments?
A. They haad to ascertain whether they really met the conditions that I set. IF they did, then they could take a necessary number of these people for the experiments. They had to be in a good state of physical health. They couldn't be people who were in any way weak or who were not appropriate for these experiments. They had to be such people, otherwise there would have been no parallel with pilots. Their nature had to be like that of pilots.
Q. They had to be good specimens?
A. Normal, average, but no really sick people because then the results of those experiments would be fallacious.
Q. Is it your belief today that in all these experiments, only one possible death resulted and that one was denied by Rascher?
A. No. Now I know that there were a great number of fatalities which because of secret-private experiments on the part of the SS-- came about. There was a lot of double dealing here. On the one hand, there were perfectly ordinary and regular experiments carried out on which reports were given to me and then there was a second secret experimental group which Rascher carried on within the framework of the SS and which was strictly kept from our knowledge. This double dealing was car ried on by Rascher, who was not only of a pathological nature but also of a criminal nature. That is the explanation.
Q. Then, your eyes are open today?
A. Today, my eyes are open, yes; and I am horrified by what I found out.
THE PRESIDENT: The court is about to recess until one-thirty. Will you have another witness ready at that time?
DR. BERGOLD: I wanted to read a few documents this afternoon and then first ball my witness. However, I still have a few questions to direct to the witness here.
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess until one-thirty.
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal is recessed until onethirty this afternoon.
(The Tribunal recessed until 1330 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The Tribunal reconvened at 1330 hours.)
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal Number 2 is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Please proceed.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honor please, the document which was last referred to, which is Document Number NO 401, the report of the conference in Nurnberg--I was under the impression that Dr. Bergold had offered that, and the only reason that we didn't have it was because it has not come down from the document room, and hence I did not offer it because there is no sense in getting it in twice. I just want to make sure that if Dr. Bergold does not plan to offer it, why then, of course, we do, but he questioned the witness about it, and I just wanted to have that on the record because we don't have it in shape to present it now.
THE PRESIDENT: It was merely referred to; it was not handed to the Court, was it?
MR. DENNEY: I did not hand it to the Court, no, Your Honor, but I thought Dr. Bergold was going to.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, may it please the Tribunal, I intend introducing it. I have completed Document Book 2, which I have already had since Monday of last week. That is, I turned it in for translation, but unfortunately it is not yet finished. I just heard that it will be ready within twenty or thirty minutes and will then be introduced.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honor please, I w,as not in any way quarreling about it. I just wanted it to appear on the record why we had not and to make it clear.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
ERIC HIPPKE -- Resumed RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, the Prosecutor today mentioned the conferences during 1941. He asked you if at the time they spoke about high altitude and freezing experiments.
I want you to clarify the fact if in 1941 freezing 865a experiments were being discussed.
A. No. In 1941 we spoke about high altitude questions only.
Q. Witness, the Prosecution also showed you this morning the letter of the defendant of 20 May 1942 and in this connection mentioned your statement concerning the conference of 31 August, during which conference Milch asked you concerning the freezing experiments and their significance. Do you remember that?
A. Yes. I do.
Q. Now, I would like to submit to you, or read to you, from the letter of the defendant Milch of 20 May 1942: "On the other hand," it says, "the execution of other experiments, the sea-distress for instance, is of importance. These are carried out by that office." Do you believe that the defendant Milch, who is not a physician, by the expression concerning sea-distress, had to know that these were chilling experiments?
A. No, it was clear that it was just a cooperation between them and the Luftwaffe, between the SS and the Luftwaffe.
THE PRESIDENT: Wait just a minute. I did not get anything from that answer. I did not get any meaning out of that answer. What was it again, please?
DR. BERGOLD: I had asked the witness, Your Honor-
THE PRESIDENT: (Interposing) No, it is the translation which wasn't clear to me.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Would you repeat your answer?
A. It could only be seen that a cooperation between the Luftwaffe and the SS was taking place. The sea-distress questions concerned such experiments, and cannot be seen from this fact.
Q. You were also under the impression that the word "chilling" was hoard by Milch on 31 August for the first time?
A. Yes, it was heard by him for the first time on that day because this term did not exist prior to that date.
Q. Thank you. Did you know, witness, that Rascher sent his own father to the concentration camp?
A. No, I did not know that.
Q. Witness, I shall come now to Exhibit No. 128, which was shown to you this morning by the Prosecution. This is a report of Rascher concerning his conversation with you.
According to this report, you are to have said: "You must be clear that the medical officer corps of the Luftwaffe will no longer cooperate with you, and that you will have scientific enmities from certain gentlemen", and I shall skip a few words, "That is, will have a fight in the scientific connection, and you will not have to expect such a fight."
A. These terms were not used by me.
Q. Are you of the opinion that they contain a threat and that it does not quite coincide with the fact that you said that you were rather nice?
A. At that time I did not make any threats and I wasn't nice to him either I was just factual.
Q. Witness, according to the statement made by Rascher, you are to have said that you and Romberg carried out, or were ordering, experiments over 21,000 meters of 21 kilometers. Is such a statement correct compared with your letter of the 6th of March, just six days prior to that, where you state: "For the time being, this work however, can no longer be carried out because, for a continuance of the work, we need a low pressure chamber, which not only produces stratospheric altitudes, but also stratospheric temperatures."?
A. They do not quite coincide. I explicitly said that this work of Dr. Romberg and Ruff would start right away, not of Rascher, who had nothing to do with that any longer.
Q. I still don't understand that witness. You say that experiments were carried out over 21,000 meters and would be carried out very soon, and six days prior to that, you write: "These experiments cannot be carried out before they cannot be executed because we do not have the chambers."
A. I'm not speaking of over 21,000 meters. Rascher was the one who said that. We did not want to carry out experiments over 21,000 motors. We were only talking about freezing experiments in connection with the altitude experiments below 21,000 meters. In other words, the whole thing is wrong.
Q. Witness, Rascher speaks of being in a position to be promoted very fast with you, rued the SS there would be difficulties for the promotion. Did 868a you ever discuss such questions with him, or did you ever have an oralreport or a talk with him?
A. I see here that there is a distortion here, that, I regard as desire to reach as high a rank in the SS - or rating as possible.
Q. I have a last question to you, witness. This morning, the prosecution asked you when was the first time you spoke about these experiments with your superior in 41. As the question was not answered, due to some difficulty, I shall ask you again, explicitly. This letter to the defendant -- was this said to the defendant or to the supervisor, Ruedel?
A. It was made to my supervisor. This remark was made to my direct superior, who at that time was General Ruedel, so that I do not doubt that the report went to Ruedel, and not directly to Milch, who at that time was no longer my immediate superior.
Q. Do you know if the report then went down to Milch?
A. That I do not know personally, because it was absolutely a matter concerning Ruedel.
DR. BERGOLD: I have no further questions to this witness.
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q. Witness, in a letter which you wrote to Himmler, you stated that the freezing experiments led to results of practical use. Can you tell the Tribunal very briefly now, just what were those practical uses that you mentioned?
A. The following things were the practical results: We knew now that people who had been saved from the water alive could only be revived by the use of hot water of 40 degrees - they could only be treated this way - and we thus succeeded in saving their lives, whereas, in a greater percentage of cases, in spite of all the attempts that were made to save their lives, we did not succeed in doing so. That was absolutely new for us. Apart from that, we understood, through the experiments, that the use of medicine, drugs, did not help at all.
As a matter of fact, they didn't help at all. We finally found out that the speed with which the doctor must help after the saving must be a great one because, afterwards, the rescued ones die within half an hour after the rescue. Finally, there was something else that was practical, or practically important; that such people who had been rescued unconsciously, and who were stiff in their muscular systems, were still to be saved; that, on the contrary, people, the muscular systems of whom was lax, were dead, and that a rescue was absolutely unnecessary and useless. In other words, while a man was still stiff in his muscles, then everything should be tried in order to revive him. Finally, we found out that the protective suits had a very very great practical importance; that furthermore demonstrated what ought to be changed on those suits, suits, namely, that the pilot in the protective suit had to float vertically and not horizontally, so that his neck wouldn't be exposed to the cold water, because, should the neck be exposed to the cold water, there was a great danger of death. All this was absolutely new for us, and, therefore, of greatest practical use, and immediately after the conference, we made use of it. I personally saw to it that in the fiord of Oslu the hot water was used, in a motor torpedo boat, through the fact that the radiator water, which was about 40 degrees, could be used on the rescued persons.
Q. Very well. Do you know Walter Neff?
A. No. I don't know Walter Neff. I only heard that he was one of those released from Dachau, who participated in the experiments and I know that he's here in jail, because, in the corridor I noticed his name.
Q. You do not know that he has testified that the subjects of these experiments were not volunteers?
A. Would you repeat the question, please? No; I didn't know that. I never heard about that.
DR. BERGOLD: I am through with the witness. I have no further questions, Your honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The I Marshal may remove the witness.
(The witness was removed.)
870 a
DR. BERGOLD: I would appreciate it if we could call the witness RICHTER: since document Book 2 is not ready yet.
THE PRESIDENT: Here, is the Marshal.
DR. BERGOLD: May I call in Witness Richter? May it Please this Tribunal, I am calling this witness a little earlier than I expected, for the following reasons: When the Tribunal granted me permission to call this witness there was no time during the session yesterday so I could finish my own personal affairs, therefore, I was not in the courthouse.
I just heard that this witness, who is 71 years of age, due to a long-chain of bad happenings, for which nobody is responsible, is badly billeted, in an absolutely cold room and his food situation is not very clear. I therefore want to enable this poor old man to be in a position to return to his home at once. After a consultation with Mr. Denny, Mr. Denny has agreed, and I now ask the Tribunal for permission to grant me my wish now.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Denny, do you object to Dr. Bergold calling this witness at this time?
MR. DENNY: No, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. The Marshal will please produce the witness Richter.
THE MARSHAL: "Richter"?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
(At this juncture the Marshal left the room and returned with a male person, who took his seat in the witness chair, the marshal adjusting the witness' ear-phones to the witness' head)
THE PRESIDENT: Will the witness stand, please?
(the witness stands)
The PRESIDENT: Raise your right hand.
(The witness raises his right hand)
THE PRESIDENT: Repeat after me: "I swear by God" -
(The witness repeats the words in German)
THE PRESIDENT: --the Almighty and Omniscient," -
(The witness repeats)
871 a
THE PRESIDENT: -- "that I will speak the pure truth"-
(the witness repeats)
THE PRESIDENT: --"and will withhold" (the witness repeats)
THE PRESIDENT: --"and add nothing."
(the witness repeats)
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down. Proceed.
KARL EITEL RICHTER, the witness, thereupon testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, if I ask you now, I want you for technical purposes, to make a certain pause between my questions and your answer, a few seconds, so that the translator can finish the translation of your question, before they interpret your answer?
A Yes.
Q Witness, tell the Tribunal your first name and your middle name, if any, and your last name?
A Karl Eitel Richter.
Q When were you born?
A On the 3rd of February 1876.
Q That was your position,--the last position you held with the government in Germany?
A I was Director of the Ministry; with the Aviation Ministry, as the Personal Reporter of tho Defendant Milch, Field Marshal Milch.
Q Can you recognize the defendant Milch in this room?
A (The witness nods his head in the direction of Dr. Bergold)
DR. BERGOLD: I wish tho record to show that the witness recognizes the defendant.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will so show.
(pause)
THE PRESIDENT: The witness will please repeat what his position was with the German Government.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Will you tell the Tribunal what was your last position?
A. Director in the Air Ministry and Personal Reporter of Field Marshal Milch.
Q. How long have you known the defendant Milch?
A. Since 1919, approximately.
Q. How long have you had to do with the official business of the defendant, in what capacity did you have official dealings with him?
A. At that time, as far an I can remember, I was made Hauptman-
Q. Answer the question again?
A. I was Ministerial Personal Adviser at the Reich Office for Air navigation and Motoring.
A. How long have you been personal adviser of the defendant Milch?
A. It was either 1937 or 1938.
Q. What was Milch's position at that time?
A. I can't tell you that exactly, what rank the defendant had at that time; maybe he was a General, or maybe he was a Major General; I don't know.
Q. I did not ask you about the rank; I asked you about his "position"?
A. Secretary of State for Luftwaffe, the Luftwehr.
Q. Do you know the former Director of Aviation, Hippke?
A. Yes, I know him all right.
Q. Was Hippke under the defendant Milch?
A. For a certain time, yes.
Q. Please state the date, from when to when?
A. I am afraid I can't do that, because I do not know.
Q. Is it right to say that he was no longer under Milch, is that correct, when the Luftwehr was placed under General Raoder?
(no response)
Q. Is that correct?