Q Did they have any guards around them?
A I never saw any guards.
Q And when did you first find out that concentration camp laborers were being used in aircraft factories? Was that in March 1944?
A I was then on an official trip to increase fighter production.
Q Now, just answer the question. I asked you when the date was? Was it in March 1944 that you -
A Yes; that was in March 1944.
Q In March 1944 you first found out that concentration camp inmates were being employed in the air armament factories?
A Yes.
Q And you didn't report this to the defendant?
A No, because then, when I returned in May -
Q You've already told us that the reason you didn't was because there was a change. The only thing I'm asking you is to confirm what you said. You did not report it to the defendant?
A No.
Q And, so far as you know, the defendant never know anything about concentration camp inmates being employed in Luftwaffe factories, or air armament factories?
A I cannot say that, of course.
Q Well, do you know that he did know that they employed concentration camp inmates?
A No; that I didn't know .
Q He never told you: "Haertel, we have down here a certain number of concentration came inmates", did he?
A No.
*---*
Q And you never heard him talk to any body also about concentration camp inmates?
A No.
Q And you never heard the defendant say anything about turning any kind of workers over to Himmler?
A No. I never heard anything about that.
Q You never heard of the SD handling workers, any kind of workers?
A I never heard anything about the SD.
Q Did you know what it was?
A Oh, yes.
Q They were some of Himmler's characters; were they not.
A Oh, yes that is well known.
Q And I believe you said that in the Generalluftzeugmeister meetings they never discussed labor?
A Oh, yes; workers were discussed, of course.
Q Well, what did they say about them, when they talked about then?
Did they talk about foreign workers?
A. In the first place, the figures were important to us, not what type of workers we were getting; whether they were foreign or were German.
Q. Well, then you never discussed foreign workers there. You just discussed figures?
A. Yes, we discussed figures quite independent of the type of the worker.
Q. You never discussed foreign workers, you discussed figures.
A. Well naturally, we were told that we have so and so many foreign workers but requests were always figures, and never type of workers.
Q. So then you know that you did have some foreign workers?
A. We did not request foreign workers. We did not apply for foreign workers. We only drew up figures of our needs and sent it on to Sauckel. What we were given was outside of our influence.
Q. I asked you whether or not you know that you had foreign workers, and I'm still waiting for an answer.
A. Foreign workers were used in the air armament; yes.
Q. So far as you know they were all volunteers.
A. I did not say so. Where the workers came from, whether they were volunteers or not, was not know to us.
Q. Well did it ever occur to you that perhaps you might have some forced laborers there?
A. It was not known to me. I never paid any attention to it.
Q. You stated that the defendant thought that the war was lost. When did he thinks the war was lost?
A. He did not say that; that the war was lost. I said before that he attempted to make such hint, and that very undirectly, he dropped small hints which showed his opinion.
Q. Well, you picked the small hints up and pieced them together, and figured out that the defendant thought the war was last. Now when did you came to that conclusion?
A. I cannot of course, give that precisely here, but after Stalingrad the first misgivings occurred.
Q. When was Stalingrad?
A. Well Winter 1942 and 1943.
Q. About the Russians who were used in the anti-aircraft; on gun batteries; how many of them were used to you knowledge?
A. I do not know about this because it was not our field of duties.
Q. Well; did you ever see any of them in a gun battery?
A. I was never allowed to enter a anti-aircraft position. We had no permission to do that.
Q. You said that the defendant ordered you to attend the Jaegerstab meetings and to report to him?
A. Yes.
Q. How many of the Jagerstab meetings did you attend?
A. Roughly, I should say I attended 90 percent of the meetings, with the exception of these held in March and the beginning of May 1944--during that time, I was on a journey.
Q. Did you ever see the defendant there?
A. Very rarely at the most four or five times.
Q. So you went to 90 percent of the meetings and-
A. Yes Q. --you saw him there four or five times?
A. Yes.
MR. DENNEY: I have no more questions, Your Honors.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q You said just now that from March to May you didn't take part in the meetings.
A Yes, from the beginning of March up to the beginning of May; only after that.
Q Only after that?
A Yes.
Q One more question: did you report about the film to Milch?
A No.
DR. BERGOLD: No further questions.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q Referring to the film that you saw; was the subject either Dr. Rancher or Dr. Romberg?
A I don't know either of these people.
Q You say the defendant Milch threatened to shoot and kill you?
A Yes, he said so quite frequently; he threatened that quite often in discussions.
Q Do you know about him saying that he was going to have to kill two Russian officers who escaped?
A Russian officers? I know nothing of this incident.
Q You never heard of that?
A No.
Q Did you know that Polish and Russian foreigners worked in the air armament plants?
A Russian workers did work in our armament factories Yes.
Q Do you know of any of then being killed?
A I don't know of one single case.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: That is all.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Do you speak Russian, Polish or Rumanian?
A I speak a little Russian.
Q Do you understand these languages?
A Yes, a little.
Q But none of the workers ever stopped you and complained that they were not being fed or cared for?
A No.
Q What do you think would have happened had one done so?
A The members of the firm would have taken proper measures on the basis of the complaints.
Q Proper measures.
AAny bad management would have been immediately stopped.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Bergold, have you any other witnesses now except the witness Eschenauer?
DR. BERGOLD: Eschenauer tomorrow, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: That will be the last one until the defendants in Trial No. 1 are produced?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes. Tomorrow I shall read from my document book about two, which will take a little time.
THE PRESIDENT: And you will call Eschenauer as a witness?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you please have the witness ready the first thing in the morning?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, I will.
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess until that time.
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal No. II will recess until 0930 13 February 1947.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 13 February 1947, at 0930 hours.)
Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 13 February 1947, 0930, Justice Toms presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal 2. Military Tribunal 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the court.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Court, I have, first of all, a technical question. You told me that tomorrow and Monday the defendants from case number one may be called. May I call them in a sequence as I think fit or has Court Number One made a ruling as to the sequence?
THE PRESIDENT: Court Number One will not be in session and you are at liberty to call the defendants in whatever order you wish.
DR. BERGOLD: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: I remind you, Dr. Bergold, that the Defense Information Center must be informed of this.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, only I didn't know whether the order was left to me or whether there was a ruling.
THE PRESIDENT: You may choose your own order. Be sure to notify the Defense Information Center.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes. Good. I now ask permission to call the witness Eschenauer.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will summon the witness Eschenauer.
ARTUR ESCHENAUER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Witness, you will raise your right hand and then repeat after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, would you please reply to my questions slowly so that the translators can follow you? Also, would, you please pause after each question put to you so that the translators can finish translating my question?
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honor please, the witness has just taken papers from his pocket and put them on the desk there. I suggest that he testify from him memory and not from something that he has written up or that someone may have written up for him.
THE PRESIDENT: The Court has no knowledge of what the papers contain. If the witness uses them --
MR. DENNEY: The witness has now put them away.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honors, in Germany you are usually allowed to note down brief words.
THE PRESIDENT: There is nothing of object to nor rule upon yet.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, will you give us your Christian name end second name?
A. Artur Eschenauer.
Q. When were you born?
A. January 23, 1906.
Q. Please remember to pause. Don't start at once. What was your last position in the German Wehrmacht?
A. I was a colonel, and in the last five weeks I led the liaison staff SU.
Q. Please explain the initials "SU". We are not familiar with these military initials.
A. After the occupation of Germany a liaison staff of the Quartermaster General in the Northern Area was formed.
Q. Since when were you active with the Quartermaster General?
A. From 1 April 1941 up to the capitulation I was subordinate to the Quartermaster General.
Q. Do you know the defendant Milch?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Can you see him in the Court? Will you please point him out to (The witness complied.)
DR. BERGOLD: Please out on the record that the witness recognized the defendant.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will so show.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, in your position with the Quartermaster General were you a subordinate of Milch?
A. No, I was never his immediate subordinate.
Q. Did the Quartermaster General - was he subordinate of Milch?
A. No, he was not of Milch either.
Q. To whom was the Quartermaster General a subordinate?
A. He was under the chief of the General Staff of the Luftwaffe and was his subordinate.
Q. And to whom was the Chief of the General Staff of the Luftwaffe subordinate?
A. He was subordinate immediately to Goering.
Q. You could say, therefore, you had no subordinate relations, as it were, to Milch?
A. Never.
Q. Witness, can you tell us from when and where Milch was concerned with the armament in the war?
A. Milch took over after the death of Udet. He took over concerns of the GL. That was in November 1941.
Q. In your own office with the Quartermaster General did you have official relations with him?
A. Yes, that was because of the whole manner of my activities which led to intimate official cooperation between the General and myself.
Q. Will you please describe to us what these official relations were?
A. My field of tasks comprised questions of armaments and equipment of the Luftwaffe. The office requested war equipment for aircraft and instruments for the ground services - it was the General Staff of the Luftwaffe. The applying office was the GL. This shows the necessity for a mutual official contact.
Q. Do you know when Milch resigned from these armament tasks?
A. Yes. The beginning of this occurred when the Jaegerstab was founded. He finally resigned as far as I know in June. The beginning of his resignation goes back further and was known to us outsiders from about April or the beginning of May.
Q. You said with the foundation of the Jaegerstab Milch's resignation started. Will you please explain that opinion?
A. The Jaegerstab was founded. Field Marshal Milch took part in the first talks and conferences held by the Jaegerstab but then he didn't turn up any more nor was he asked for his opinion on things to be planned.
Q. Can you tell us reasons which led to the formation of the Jaegerstab?
A. As I saw it, this was a final effort on the part of Milch to express his opinion on the necessity for the defense of the Reich and then, in effect, by taking over the responsibility for the building of fighter aircraft and transfer the responsibility to the Ministry of Armament in order to exploit the bigger powers of the armament industry. So this is new -
Q. You say the bigger power of that ministry. Were they at his disposal earlier?
A. From the conference, the so-called GL conference in which he took part, I could see quite clearly that he made demands repeatedly to be supported in his program and he made these demands in the armament industry but they were never met. The promises given to him were never met and the result was that he believed he should turn away the shame on the lack of defense of the Reich from the Luftwaffe by making the armament industry responsible for this state of affairs.
Q. Who was the real leader of the Jaegerstab? He planned the Jaegerstab or somebody else?
A. That was exclusively Saner.
Q. You said just now he wished to turn away from the Luftwaffe the shame of the lack of Reich defense. Did he make any efforts for the defense of the Reich before? Was he not more anxious to produce bombers and offensive weapons?
A. I could say this about this, that after he took over the office of GL, Milch pressed very strongly the question of the defense of the Reich in order to get his production factories and the labor for them to protect these people. This aim was to produce more and more strongly the more the enemy intensified his attacks on the Reich territory.
Q. Did he get the approval of his superiors for his plan to produce more fighters?
A. There were very strong conflicts for this program. He himself asked GL - this was probably in Autumn 1943, either in October or November. He drew up a program in which he pressed ruthlessly for the production of defensive aircraft up to a figure almost incredible at that time; namely, 1,000 aircraft per month, with certain limitations, however, and at the expense of the bomber arm. That program I was given simultaneously with the order of the Chief of the General Staff to draw up an estimate about this program for him. In order to make this program debatable, even, I had to take its basic condition that the bomber position should be kept on its present level. I was able to draw up a counter proposal which provided for 800 fighters. This estimation was drawn up by my then chief of office and myself and we passed it on to the chief of the general staff, who, despite misgivings on his part as far as the success was concerned, all the same was quite ready to press it through. After a few days I was told that this program had not been accepted. He dictated me the final figures, which provided for 400 fighter aircraft only. He himself, with his own conviction for the increase of the defense of the Reich, had not had any luck with Hitler or Goering or both of them. In the final drawing up of this program, of which Field Marshal Milch disapproved strongly, these figures of fighter aircraft were raised a little above the figure of 400.
Q. Can you tell us what reasons were given by Goering and Hitler for turning down this program?
Why did they want more bombers?
A. The reason was, in the mentality of these people who believed to press through the war in the east and finish it with all offensive weapons at their disposal in order then to have their back wall free to turn on the other enemies.
Q. Witness, do you know that Goering reproached Milch for keeping production too law although he, Goering, had put the necessary labor at his disposal?
A. These reproaches were raised frequently by Goering in talks in some of which I took part, mostly, however, statements, and the discussion had to be broken off. Goering was very indignant and could not be persuaded, and he asked for the matter to be cleared up otherwise.
Q On what did Goering base his figures on the labor which he put at his disposal?
A. I couldn't say that in detail. In any case Goering probably received his figures from the Party Chancellery or other Party offices. I, myself, in my own field of tasks, had an eternal struggle for the correctness of my figures and the correctness of figures applied from other offices.
Q. Do you know that Sauckel always explained to the offices concerned that he had supplied large numbers of workers?
A. I cannot speak about this as I never saw Sauckel or met him.
Q. How did you judge the question of labor in the Luftwaffe industry?
A. In the general conferences the question of workers was frequently discussed and it could been seen that to extend these programs or carry them out not enough labor was at our disposal. The main struggle was made to preserve management's skilled workers, for whom Milch sought, and on the other hand the struggle between OKW to obtain as many fighting people from the industry. Milch himself knew how to form his own Luftwaffe personnel, or from his own pilots to obtain about 40,000, or from soldiers on leave another 30,000 soldiers. In other words 70,000 men, as they figured it out. He withheld all those people from active service.
Q. All these were German workers?
A. Yes, they were German workers who sometimes worked on airfields and had been called up and who, by his intervention or other measures which I do not know in detail, went into the industry and were kept in the industry up to his resignation.
Q. Do you know that Milch had anything to do with forced labor on the part of foreigners?
A. I know nothing about this. In any case in the talks in which I was present this was never discussed.
Q. But you knew that the Luftwaffe industry kept foreign workers?
A. That was known to me.
Q. Can you tell us what attitude Milch took toward foreign workers?
A. I can recall that in several cases Milch helped to achieve increased production by giving additional food and facilities for enjoyment, including films, film shows, and so forth, so that these people would work more actively and production would increase, as he himself wished, after being told by industrialists, "You must give us the means", and he was to see to it that they were given the means.
Q. The defendant, at a meeting of the Central Planning Board, said that foreign workers should be whipped so that they would work. Is that his real attitude, or how would you say that such a statement came about?
A. I didn't hear that statement myself. I was not present at that meeting where apparently he said so. But I can well imagine that, as an impulsive character, he talked himself into a certain excitement, and whenever he did that he used expressions which went far beyond the conventional courtesy, including those present. In most cases he apologized almost immediately and said he didn't mean it, they shouldn't take too serious a view of it.
Q. You don't think that this remark about whipping - do you think that is the same sort of thing when he said, "I will hang people."?
A. This hanging and shooting business seemed to come easy to him but nobody took it seriously, all the more, as he had hardly the power to hang people.
Q. So you only saw Milch make efforts to obtain as favorable conditions as possible for foreign workers?
A Yes.
Q. Thank you. Do you know that he was even opposed to the recruiting of large numbers of foreign workers into factories?
A No, he was opposed to that because he knew very well that thereby production would not increase. He has been the head of the Lufthansa for far too long a time not to see things very clearly.
Q Witness, your reply was a little confusing. I asked you whether you know that he was opposed to the leading into factories, and you said no. That is not the correct reply to my question.
A I wanted to say he did not advocate this because he did not expect increased production.
Q Is it correct that at the end of 1941 when Milch was to go with the office of GL, the air armament was weak?
A Unfortunately, yes.
Q. Was his citing for increased interest in the production was his citation for increased production the result of that, or did he merely wish to enslave foreign workers?
AA reply to that question goes beyond my competency. I can only give my impression that I am of the opinion that he wished to enslave foreign workers, but he looked on the GL office and concentrated on it more strongly in order to increase the production.
Q Did the German Armed Forces know at that time that the American Air Armament figures were very much higher in relation to the German figures?
A The Luftwaffe knew that.
MR. DENNEY: Your Honor, I don't mind this witness being lead, but when he is asked what the knowledge is of what the German Armed Forces know, that is objectionable. This man is a colonel, and he can be asked what he knows, but my goodness, let's not get out of this witness the knowledge of the Wehrmacht.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, it is a fact that the point is why Milch wished to increase production, and that the American figures were really higher is not the opinion of him but what the Germans believed.
MR. DENNEY: Now what Germany believed but what did Milch believe.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: But that is not what you asked him.
DR. BERGOLD: All right.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Please confine your reply to Milch. What did Milch think of the American figures, what did Milch think the American figures were?
A I can not say this because I have no knowledge.
THE PRESIDENT: He answered the question by saying he can not say what Milch thought.
989 a BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Please tell, witness, whether the Luftwaffe Office had finished material at their disposal?
A Yes, they had material, but that went to a different part of the Ministry. How that material came to the factory I could not say.
Q Witness, when you cited an increasing production, were you given this enemy figure for comparison?
A Yes, in some cases I did some myself; these were materials which I received from the Swiss figures published by Henry Kaiser.
Q Was he present at that talk?
A No, he was not present.
Q You believe, in other words, that he had no idea how strong the enemy airforce was?
A No, no, I could not say that. Naturally, he had a certain idea, because he himself had thought of the figures, which he did not get from me.
Q But you do think he was informed?
A Yes, he certainly was informed.
Q Witness, to increase the Fighter Staff Army, was that meant for offensive warfare, or to defend the homeland?
A Milch looked on it as a defensive army for the homeland, in order to safeguard arms production.
Q Witness, do you know of the Central Planning Board?
A No. I heard the term but what it really was I could not say, because we were sorry to see that up to the end of the war there was no coordinating office.
THE PRESIDENT: Now just a minute. He said when he answered your question that he did not know of the Central Planning Planning Board, period.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, a document has boon submitted in which the Central Planning 990 a Board is described as a coordinating office for the whole German War Industry.
Was there such an office, really?
A No, we were sorry to say that there was no such coordination office which would coordinate the request for service of the Wehrmacht and the coordinating with the potentiality of material available.
Q Witness, in these conversations, it was usual in Germany to take down verbatim the record of it; was it known to you?
A Yes, it is.
Q You yourself were present at the conversation?
A Yes.
Q Did you ever check up or road through these records?
A Yes, that was one of my obligations, to read through these records, be cause it very often lead me to take certain actions.
Q What was your impression of the exactitude of these records?
A The records which were taken down by the stenographers were verbatim, and afterwards were worked on in an abridged form , or submitted to other offices, and were not always according to what had been said, particularly one of these last meetings, when those conferences were held with several persons speaking at the same time, or when discussions were very excited. I myself in two cases had to insist that the record should be changed, because my own words had been taken down completely contrary to what I had said before.
Q Do you know also that when Milch used strong language, for instance, that the stenographers were told "Don't put that down", or "Don't put it in this form."
A Oh, yes, that happened usually when he had used a few strong expressions, or had exploded in an unpolite manner.
Q You were present at conferences of the Jaegerstab?