THE PRESIDENT: Just a minute. Go ahead.
DR. BERGOLD: That is sufficient. I have no further questions to put to the witness, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you want to cross examine the witness, Mr. Denney?
MR. DENNEY: Yes. Could we adjourn now?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, recess until 1:30.
THE MARSHALL: This Tribunal is in recess until 1330 this afternoon.
(Whereupon recess was taken at 1330 hours, same date).
AFTERNOON SESSION (The Tribunal re-convened at 1350 hours.)
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal Number II is again in session.
KARL WOLFF - Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. Witness, were you a member of the NSDAP?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you become a member?
A. I joined the Party in October 1931, both the NSDAP and the SS.
Q. And you also remained a member of the Party and of the SS?
A. Yes, up until the end of the war.
Q. And over the years your relationship with Himmler became a very close one, did it not?
A. From 1933 up until the outbreak of war, it was very intimate, daily contacts. From the beginning of the war onwards, from 1 September 1939 until 18 February 1943, we were separated because I was in the Fuehrer's headquarters. I saw Himmler there once a week and talked to him over the telephone or personally.
Q. You did not go to his speech to the generals of the Waffen-SS which was made in Poszen in October of 1943?
A. No, sir. I was then in Italy, fighting and did not take part in the meeting as I can prove.
Q. Did you ever see a copy of that speech?
A. To the best of my knowledge and remembrance, no.
Q. Did any of your brother SS officers ever report to you what Himmler said about you at that speech?
A. No.
Q. You were the Supreme SS officer in Italy?
A. Yes.
Q. Starting in 1943, when?
A. Yes, from 9 September 1943.
Q. Until what date?
A. Up until I was taken prisoner on 13 May 1945.
Q. And as such you had complete power over all SS and police units in Italy?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know a man named Harster?
A. No. Do you mean the SS Obergruppenfuehrer and Lieutenant General of the Security Police Officer Wilhelm Harster?
Q. Did you know him?
A. Yes, of course. After all he was my subordinate officer and commanding officer of the Security Police in Italy.
Q. Did you know a man named Kappler, who was under him?
A. Yes, of course. He was formerly police attache with the German Embassy in Rome, and after the so-called Bodoglio surrender, he was handed over to me as he knew Rome best of all, and there he became the commander of the Security Police in Rome and was, as such, under me.
Q. The Italian capitulation, the so-called Bodoglio capitulation, occurred in, roughly, August of 1943?
A. As far as I remember, the secret surrender, which was kept a secret from the German Axis partner, was 1 September, and the application of the surrender was announced on 8 September.
Q. And after that Kappler came up to Rome, where he was chief of Police under you?
A. He was chief of the Security Police in Rome, and, as such, was subordinate directly and immediately to SS Obergruppenfuehrer Dr. Harster, the commander of the Security Police in Italy, who in turn was my subordinate.
Q. You were the top SS man in Italy?
A. Yes, that is correct.
A. You told the Court that you had been a good SS man and that you were proud of everything that the SS had done; that they were a fine organization.
A. I am sorry, I did not hear the beginning of the sentence, only the end.
Q. You told the Court that you were a good SS man and that you were proud of everything that the SS had done during the war.
A. Yes, what the SS did under my orders and under my responsibility.
Q. And you were responsible for whatever they did down in Italy during the period September '43 to April '45?
A. Of course I admit that I am responsible in that sense and to the same extent as Field Marshal Alexander is responsible for the Italian theater of war and should be made responsible for every single mistake, every single offense committed by people, by Allied troops under his command.
Q. That is what they made you a general of the Waffen-SS for, wasn't it, to be responsible?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. You remember an incident that took place at the Ardeatime Caves on 24 March 1944?
A. Yes, I do.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Court, I made every effort to make it quite clear now what purpose Mr. Denney has with these questions. I stated before that within the framework of cross examination the usual thing is to put questions which really belong to the original interrogation. Incidents in Italy have, in my opinion, nothing to do with the present trial -- nothing at all. The credibility of a witness can be tested in another manner. In particular it needn't be tested by discussing incidents which have nothing to do with the material under review. I therefore protest against this manner of cross examining and I leave it to the wisdom of the Court to find out about that.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honor please, this man has told the Court what a fine organization this is that he represented. Dr. Bergold let him continue at length on direct examination, a long tale as to how he was the best man to speak for the SS and wasn't allowed to do it, and he may have left the impression with the Court that this SS to which he belonged was, in fact, some sort of an aid society.
He has told where he was, and I submit that I am allowed to interrogate him as to how it happened in some of the places where he had the command.
Dr. BERGOLD: May it please the Court -
THE PRESIDENT: I am about to rule. Of course your philosophy, Mr. Denney, is that two wrongs make a right, because without your objection the witness wandered off into immaterial fields on direct examination, he ought to have the same latitude on cross examination. Logically, this position is not defensible. On the other hand we are - well, call it arbitrarily, if you wish, going to give the witness, and give you, some latitude, within limitations, in inquiring as to this defendant's background, having in mind that we are not here trying the SS.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. Do you know how many people were killed in the Ardeatime Caves?
A. Yes, about 335, and if I may say something about this -
THE PRESIDENT: No, don't. Just answer the questions.
THE WITNESS: Yes, 335, roughly.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. Some of them were Jews?
A. As I remember it, I heard about this only after the end of the war, as far as I remember, and to the best of my conscience.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Court, I still can't see what that has to do with my trial. Did I misunderstand the Court's ruling?
THE PRESIDENT: The Court's ruling was that this line of questioning would be permitted within very definite limitations and not permitted to go too far. One of the reasons for the ruling is that you yourself permitted the witness to wander into strange fields, and as we say in America, "Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander."
THE WITNESS: Personally I have no objections, for my conscience is completely clean in this particular matter.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. You never heard anything about this affair until after the war was over?
A. Yes; yes.
Q. And you didn't go to Rome on the 25th of March, 1944?
A. I flew to Rome, and I said -- perhaps I may point out what I said in London -
Q. Tell me what you remember. I don't want you to read to me.
A. I only want to give the number to avoid misunderstandings. This is record 1338B of 7 September 1946. Everything is contained in there, but I shall be glad to tell it from my memory. The reprisal measures taken in the case Ardeatime near Rome were taken only -
Q. Wait. The only question that is now pending is whether he went to Rome on a certain date. Answer that question. Did you go to Rome on the 25th of March, 1944?
A. As far as I know, as far as I can remember, probably even on 24 March. Probably on 24 March, possibly on 25 March. In the evening I arrived from Verona by air to Viterbo on the day, on the eve of the official funeral of the 32 or 33 victims of this foul attack made by people on a police troop which had the order to look after law and order in this open city of Rome and to protect the Vatican.
Q. So you got there on the 24th or the 25th?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. And did you cause any investigation to be made of this incident? You can answer that very simply. Did you cause any investigation to be made of this incident?
A. No, because I was not competent at that time, for the unit which had carried out the reprisal measure, or which had been the victim of the attempt was exclusively under the command of the commandant of the General of the Luftwaffe, Meltzer, who already has been sentenced to death, as well as the C-in-C of the 14th Army, also sentenced to death, Col. General von Mackensen. If I had anything to do with it, I would have been called into that trial myself.
Q. You didn't do anything about it; the answer is no, is that right?
A. No. As I said, I was not competent.
Q. Now turning to these letters that you had to do with, some of which you addressed -- were addressed to you and some of which were signed by you to Dr. Rascher -- Dr. Bergold, I wonder if you could give him Document No. NO-308 Will you get it from Dr. Bergold, please?
The letter of 16 April 1942 to Hippke. It is Page 9 in Document Book 5-A.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Witness, I will not prolong the episode which you just testified to, but I would like to put one question only. As commanding general of the SS troops in Italy, when you arrived in Viterbo and learned of this incident, could you have ordered an investigation even though the area directly involved was under the jurisdiction of General von Mackensen?
THE WITNESS: No, I wouldn't have been in a position to do so. No. And may I add that when I arrived in Viterbo the sentence had been carried out. I was faced with facts when I arrived.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You say the reprisals had already been committed?
THE WITNESS: Everything had happened before I even arrived at Viterbo. May I ask about this letter, about this document which has been given to me? May I also see a photostatic copy, because on this copy I cannot see the important evidence, my initials, also notes which are very important for me.
MR. DENNEY: We don't seem to have a photostatic copy here, on the English copy there is a note up in the upper right hand corner which says:
DR. BERGOLD: There should be a copy with the Secretary General.
A It is very important for me that I see the photostatic copy because I need it; from there I can see the really important data. It was shown to me once before in London; it should be available.
THE PRESIDENT: Shall we send for it?
A I would be very grateful.
MR. DENNY: If it is not too much trouble, I would appreciate having it.
THE PRESIDENT: Will the Secretary General get that document, please.
MR. DENNEY: NO. 318.
BY MR. DENNEY: (Continuing)
Q Perhaps you can turn the letter which you have admitted signing to Milch, dated 21 November 1942, or 27 November 1942, as the case may be, in which--Page 179 of Document Book. 5 A, Your Honors.
A Yes.
Q At the beginning of the second paragraph you state-- the research is concerned with the reaction of the human organism at great heights and with the symptoms brought on by cooling the human body by immersion in cold water for a long period; and similar problems particularly necessary for the Luftwaffe can be carried out especially efficiently in our organization because the Reich Fuehrer SS has accepted the responsibility for supplying death deserving social persons and criminals in the concentrations camps for these experiments. What do you regard as social criminals who could probably be made the subject of one of these experiments?
A Did you ask me with regard to death deserving criminals and a social character?
Q Yes.
A I should say first, I am not a general police, certainly not of the Security police, neither am I in the civil service in the ministry of justice; I am 1251 a only an active soldier.
In my lay-man opinion I can only say that I can only see a criminal as one with so many offenses to his record, who has committed crimes deserving death.
Q. Then, if they survived these experiments you would put them into the Wehrmacht; if they would survive the experiments, did you?
A. It is his business if he volunteers for these things, in the interest of the fatherland, his own motives. Everybody obeys his own instinct; either you risk your life, or as a slacker, you remove yourself from your patriotic duty. That is the same in all countries and in this case in Germany. These death deserving and asocial persons had the decency to put their lost life at the disposal of the Fatherland, and thereby win the honor to fight cleanly and freely at the front.
Q. Now, when was Rascher transferred to the Waffen SS; do you recall?
A. As far as I recall, not when I was in office, for I said this morning that on 18 February 1943; I fell ill suddenly, fell ill so suddenly that I could not travel and had to undergo a serious operation and I believe to recall that after that time the transfer, I believe that up to that time the transfer of Rascher from the Luftwaffe to the Waffen SS had not happened yet. That becomes clear from my statement in the record also.
Q. Going back to this paragraph we have just read, you used the term "asocial persons and criminals" and it seems to me that the definition you have given us is one of criminals. What is the difference between them?
A. Well, as I said before, I am not a member of the security police nor am I a legal expert. I cannot speak about the legal aspects here. I could imagine here that a criminal -- I'd much rather not give the definition here which would he inadequate because I am not an export.
Q. Is an asocial person referred to as a Jew or a foreigner; could it mean a Jew or a foreigner?
A. I believe that in every country, in every race, there are good and bad elements, and,therefore, the question of the prosecutor does concern probably all nations and all races.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Witness, the prosecutor wanted to know what you meant when you wrote these words in this letter.
A Just a moment, I have to say this about my letter --
Q Now stop.
A Yes.
Q Just answer the question: When you used the words in this letter death deserving and asocial persons, did you mean Jews and foreigners?
A I did not dictate that letter myself, and as I said once before -
Q I understand that you say you did not write the letter, but you signed it.
A Yes.
Q And it is your work and phrase, it's your words; what did you mean by those words when you signed the letter?
A I said that probably I did not read the letter in detail and, therefore, this question is quite unnecessary. I made no searching investigation whether there were foreigners or Jews, and I could take the easy way out and say simply in this case no; but my conscience and oath demands from me that I do not believe that I read the letter carefully; as I said this morning; and I did not think about this point of Jews and foreigners; it did not occur to me.
THE PRESIDENT: That answers it.
BY MR. DENNY:
Q We now have the photostatic copy, No. 318, Your Honors.
(No. 318 handed to witness) Have you read it?
A Yes, I have read it.
Q Did you write it?
A I have signed it; it came from Obersturnbannfuehrer Sievers; it was submitted to me for my signature, and I had no misgivings to sign it as it was purely concerned with the prolongation of an order which started before I took over office.
Q. All right; now, the letter of 20 May, 1942, which is on page 19 in the document book 5-A; that is the letter of 20 May 1942, to you from the defendant. Page 19 in the English Document Book, and I don't know the page in the German book. 343 A PS. In this letter it speaks about a telegram of 12 May; do you recall that telegram?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you remember its contents?
A. I believe that it was a telegram to Field Marshal Milch requesting the prolongation of the orders of Rascher's in the low pressure chamber. I did not myself send that telegram or see it myself; it was sent by Dr. Brandt, the personal expert of the Reich Fuehrer SS, without my knowledge, nor was it signed by me. In any case this document submitted to me now, the reply of Field Marshal. Milch to me has not been initialed by me; all others have my initial "W", with the green pencil. Therefore, I can prove that I never saw the outgoing telegram which was an urgent telegram from Himmler's headquarters to Milch which are 45 kilometers apart, nor the reply which is quite clearly shewn by the stamp on Milch's letter dated 20 May. I said so in detail on 21 November, 1946, in London.
Q. We then turn to Exhibit No. 261, which is about six pages later, on page 24 in the same English Document Book. It is a letter dated June 4, 1942. Now, if Your Honors please, it is Exhibit 89.
A. Unfortunately, it is not here in my book -- I cannot find it.
Q. It is No. 261 - Exhibit 89.
A. Thank you.
Q. Did you receive that from Field Marshall Milch?
A. The Document, which has just been handed to me, I did not see to the best of my knowledge and conscience, nor was it shown to me in connection with the documents which were identified as complete in London. It was probably sent to SW-11, I was not present in the Headquarters of the Reichefuehrer SS and I was not present then.
Q. You never saw that letter?
A. To the best of my knowledge and belief, no. Would the Prosecution/perhaps submit me the photostatic copy and not purely a copy so that I can see my own initials on the Document as then I can say with 100% certainty as I would like to give my answer with 100% certainty.
Q. The photostatic copy of Exhibit 89, Your honor, is submitted to the witness.
You will recall your letter to Field Marshall Milch, Exhibit 118, No. 239. Did you receive a letter from a man named Horff Von Horff, an SS Brigadefuehrer Major General of the Waffen SS shortly before that?
A. May I see that Document please? Also tell me how the name of the SS Brigadefuehrer is spelt.
Q. The name is von Horff.
A. Before November 27th? The 23rd or 27th of November perhaps?
Dr. Bergold, I cannot see my way through your files as my thumb has been hurt. I cannot find the photostatic copy of the Document.
Q. I am just inquiring if you received a letter from von Herff?
A. I seem to remember, without a photostatic copy, I can hardly say I think it is possible, but I cannot say with certainty. If I see a photostatic copy I can give an answer with 100 certainty.
Q. Unfortunately, I do not have a photostatic copy of it, so I cannot show 1255(a) it to you.
A. I am extremely sorry to cause so much trouble to the Prosecution, but after all those things are important. Please what is the date?
Q. November 25th.
A. Yes, I now have the letter .. I have read it.
Q. Have yon received the letter?
A. Yes.
Q. I will read it now:
"Today I received your letter, addressed to General Field Marshall Milch in matters of experiments for the aviation, carried out by SS Untersturmfuehrer Dr. Rascher. At the occasion of a visit to Dachau, I personally had the opportunity to meet Dr. Rascher and to familiarize myself, strictly and confidentially , with his experiments. I am happy about your letter to General Field Marshall Milch and I agree emphatically to the opinion of the Reichsfuehrer SS in every way. The misconception of the importance of those experiments for tho Luftwaffe is simply incomprehensible, as they save0 the lives of so many of our gallant fliers.
"Following your letter, there is no immediate action for me to take for the time being, but I'll gladly intervene as the Reichsfuehrer SS desires. We absolutely have to have Dr. Rascher released in tho interests of our SS Schutstaffel and also of our flying comrades.
"With cordial greetings and Heil Hitler, Yours, V. Horff."
What was he talking about in that letter as being strictly confidential and the misconception of the importance of the of the experiments as they save the lives of so many of your gallant fliers?
A. No doubt Dr. Rascher was given orders by Himmler, not when I was present, but during one of his talks, to treat these experiments strictly confidential. Strictly confidential is a different thing from "Top Secret" and that is an important linguistic point. It should be strictly confidential, which was observed. I can find nothing the matter with that. Equally obvious it seems to me is the fact that the experiments -- the high altitude experiments for which innocent doctors of the Luftwaffe volunteered should now be carried on by volunteers from concentration camps, who thereupon found their release from the concentration camps and they are allowed probationally to serve at the front.
1256(a) May I point out, because the Prosecution does not possess of this letter a photostatic copy, that this is the only letter in the entire correspondence which contains definitely my "W". This letter I really saw myself.
It is the only one.
Q. How many of these letters did you really see?
A. I surely saw that one and perhaps I can show to the Prosecution my "W" which is the initial I always put on a letter, which I actually saw myself.
A. A lot of people were writing to you and you did not see any of the letters, is that right?
A. As one reached Himmler's field headquarters and especially when these letters were sent out only with my signature, because the Reichsfuehrer SS was an important office,and,they, wrote to people in equally high positions of equal rank and these letters were signed by me as the chief of his personal staff.
Q. You were the liaison man between Himmler and Milch in these medical experiments; were you not?
A. No, that is not correct in the way you put it because a liaison officer would mean that I completely and entirely was constantly informed on the material of those experiments then I would have worked in a responsible position. That I can prove is not the case. For a period of about a year I really only sent one letter to Hippke and that was since 1942, and then the letter to Field Marshall Milch of the 25th or 27th of November, 1942, both of which I signed myself, otherwise nothing. I was purely a signing officer, but not an expert and it is said here I was an export on the matters.
Q. Did you ever have anything to do with deportation of Italians to Germany?
A. I recall vaguely and I believe it was in September of 1943, September or maybe October, in the early stages when I was assigned in Italy, but was not experienced yet.
An order came from Berlin, as I recall it, from Himmler, that Jews in Italy should be deported to the Reich. As I recall it, from Himmler, that Jews in Italy should be deported to the Reich. As I recall it, a total of about 1,050 Jews were taken from the whole of Italy, surely not a big percentage and not a very big figure, according to the order of the security police. They were collected by the command of the Security Police and in accordance with the order were taken to the Reich.
Q. Do you over recall seeing an order from Himmler, having to do with the substitution of Poles for Jewish labor? People taken out of occupied Poland, particularly for use in armament firms?
A. To the best of knowledge and belief, I cannot recall at all 1258(a) an order to concentrate on a matter where Poles should have been substituted or employed.
Q. Do you recall having anything to do with the famous picture, known as "Adam and Eve" when you were in Italy? Do you recall a telegram from Himmler about that?
A. I recall the incident very well of the two world famous paintings "Adam and Eve" which, as I think, were originally located at tho Ufficiae in Florence, I cannot recall, a telegram of Himmler in this connection. I remember , however, apart from these paintings 600 further world famous paintings by Tizian, Raffael, Boticolli. The most famous creation cf the Ufficiae which I saved on my own initiative from shall fire and which I prevented from being transported to Switzerland, as the Duce wished, and from being transported to Germany as some German Departments wished.
Q. You put them under German protection; did you not?
A. As a trustee and that is how I regarded myself when I was the highest SS officer in Italy, my art experts SS Standartenfuehrer Dr. Alexander Langsdorff and Professor Reidemeister, who worked under me in my military administration, I said take those pictures and put then under the protection of my trusteeship. Not a single one was missing when we capitulated in Italy, just as nothing was missing from the collection of gold coins of the King Of Italy, which represented the value of some one hundred million lire and they were untouched when taken over by the Americans.
THE PRESIDENT: Need you ask him anymore about his activities in Italy? We will have the answer following the recess. (A recess was taken.)