Q Witness, the prosecutor wanted to know what you meant when you wrote these words in this letter.
A Just a moment, I have to say this about my letter --
Q Now stop.
A Yes.
Q Just answer the question: When you used the words in this letter death deserving and asocial persons, did you mean Jews and foreigners?
A I did not dictate that letter myself, and as I said once before -
Q I understand that you say you did not write the letter, but you signed it.
A Yes.
Q And it is your work and phrase, it's your words; what did you mean by those words when you signed the letter?
A I said that probably I did not read the letter in detail and, therefore, this question is quite unnecessary. I made no searching investigation whether there were foreigners or Jews, and I could take the easy way out and say simply in this case no; but my conscience and oath demands from me that I do not believe that I read the letter carefully; as I said this morning; and I did not think about this point of Jews and foreigners; it did not occur to me.
THE PRESIDENT: That answers it.
BY MR. DENNY:
Q We now have the photostatic copy, No. 318, Your Honors.
(No. 318 handed to witness) Have you read it?
A Yes, I have read it.
Q Did you write it?
A I have signed it; it came from Obersturnbannfuehrer Sievers; it was submitted to me for my signature, and I had no misgivings to sign it as it was purely concerned with the prolongation of an order which started before I took over office.
Q. All right; now, the letter of 20 May, 1942, which is on page 19 in the document book 5-A; that is the letter of 20 May 1942, to you from the defendant. Page 19 in the English Document Book, and I don't know the page in the German book. 343 A PS. In this letter it speaks about a telegram of 12 May; do you recall that telegram?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you remember its contents?
A. I believe that it was a telegram to Field Marshal Milch requesting the prolongation of the orders of Rascher's in the low pressure chamber. I did not myself send that telegram or see it myself; it was sent by Dr. Brandt, the personal expert of the Reich Fuehrer SS, without my knowledge, nor was it signed by me. In any case this document submitted to me now, the reply of Field Marshal. Milch to me has not been initialed by me; all others have my initial "W", with the green pencil. Therefore, I can prove that I never saw the outgoing telegram which was an urgent telegram from Himmler's headquarters to Milch which are 45 kilometers apart, nor the reply which is quite clearly shewn by the stamp on Milch's letter dated 20 May. I said so in detail on 21 November, 1946, in London.
Q. We then turn to Exhibit No. 261, which is about six pages later, on page 24 in the same English Document Book. It is a letter dated June 4, 1942. Now, if Your Honors please, it is Exhibit 89.
A. Unfortunately, it is not here in my book -- I cannot find it.
Q. It is No. 261 - Exhibit 89.
A. Thank you.
Q. Did you receive that from Field Marshall Milch?
A. The Document, which has just been handed to me, I did not see to the best of my knowledge and conscience, nor was it shown to me in connection with the documents which were identified as complete in London. It was probably sent to SW-11, I was not present in the Headquarters of the Reichefuehrer SS and I was not present then.
Q. You never saw that letter?
A. To the best of my knowledge and belief, no. Would the Prosecution/perhaps submit me the photostatic copy and not purely a copy so that I can see my own initials on the Document as then I can say with 100% certainty as I would like to give my answer with 100% certainty.
Q. The photostatic copy of Exhibit 89, Your honor, is submitted to the witness.
You will recall your letter to Field Marshall Milch, Exhibit 118, No. 239. Did you receive a letter from a man named Horff Von Horff, an SS Brigadefuehrer Major General of the Waffen SS shortly before that?
A. May I see that Document please? Also tell me how the name of the SS Brigadefuehrer is spelt.
Q. The name is von Horff.
A. Before November 27th? The 23rd or 27th of November perhaps?
Dr. Bergold, I cannot see my way through your files as my thumb has been hurt. I cannot find the photostatic copy of the Document.
Q. I am just inquiring if you received a letter from von Herff?
A. I seem to remember, without a photostatic copy, I can hardly say I think it is possible, but I cannot say with certainty. If I see a photostatic copy I can give an answer with 100 certainty.
Q. Unfortunately, I do not have a photostatic copy of it, so I cannot show 1255(a) it to you.
A. I am extremely sorry to cause so much trouble to the Prosecution, but after all those things are important. Please what is the date?
Q. November 25th.
A. Yes, I now have the letter .. I have read it.
Q. Have yon received the letter?
A. Yes.
Q. I will read it now:
"Today I received your letter, addressed to General Field Marshall Milch in matters of experiments for the aviation, carried out by SS Untersturmfuehrer Dr. Rascher. At the occasion of a visit to Dachau, I personally had the opportunity to meet Dr. Rascher and to familiarize myself, strictly and confidentially , with his experiments. I am happy about your letter to General Field Marshall Milch and I agree emphatically to the opinion of the Reichsfuehrer SS in every way. The misconception of the importance of those experiments for tho Luftwaffe is simply incomprehensible, as they save0 the lives of so many of our gallant fliers.
"Following your letter, there is no immediate action for me to take for the time being, but I'll gladly intervene as the Reichsfuehrer SS desires. We absolutely have to have Dr. Rascher released in tho interests of our SS Schutstaffel and also of our flying comrades.
"With cordial greetings and Heil Hitler, Yours, V. Horff."
What was he talking about in that letter as being strictly confidential and the misconception of the importance of the of the experiments as they save the lives of so many of your gallant fliers?
A. No doubt Dr. Rascher was given orders by Himmler, not when I was present, but during one of his talks, to treat these experiments strictly confidential. Strictly confidential is a different thing from "Top Secret" and that is an important linguistic point. It should be strictly confidential, which was observed. I can find nothing the matter with that. Equally obvious it seems to me is the fact that the experiments -- the high altitude experiments for which innocent doctors of the Luftwaffe volunteered should now be carried on by volunteers from concentration camps, who thereupon found their release from the concentration camps and they are allowed probationally to serve at the front.
1256(a) May I point out, because the Prosecution does not possess of this letter a photostatic copy, that this is the only letter in the entire correspondence which contains definitely my "W". This letter I really saw myself.
It is the only one.
Q. How many of these letters did you really see?
A. I surely saw that one and perhaps I can show to the Prosecution my "W" which is the initial I always put on a letter, which I actually saw myself.
A. A lot of people were writing to you and you did not see any of the letters, is that right?
A. As one reached Himmler's field headquarters and especially when these letters were sent out only with my signature, because the Reichsfuehrer SS was an important office,and,they, wrote to people in equally high positions of equal rank and these letters were signed by me as the chief of his personal staff.
Q. You were the liaison man between Himmler and Milch in these medical experiments; were you not?
A. No, that is not correct in the way you put it because a liaison officer would mean that I completely and entirely was constantly informed on the material of those experiments then I would have worked in a responsible position. That I can prove is not the case. For a period of about a year I really only sent one letter to Hippke and that was since 1942, and then the letter to Field Marshall Milch of the 25th or 27th of November, 1942, both of which I signed myself, otherwise nothing. I was purely a signing officer, but not an expert and it is said here I was an export on the matters.
Q. Did you ever have anything to do with deportation of Italians to Germany?
A. I recall vaguely and I believe it was in September of 1943, September or maybe October, in the early stages when I was assigned in Italy, but was not experienced yet.
An order came from Berlin, as I recall it, from Himmler, that Jews in Italy should be deported to the Reich. As I recall it, from Himmler, that Jews in Italy should be deported to the Reich. As I recall it, a total of about 1,050 Jews were taken from the whole of Italy, surely not a big percentage and not a very big figure, according to the order of the security police. They were collected by the command of the Security Police and in accordance with the order were taken to the Reich.
Q. Do you over recall seeing an order from Himmler, having to do with the substitution of Poles for Jewish labor? People taken out of occupied Poland, particularly for use in armament firms?
A. To the best of knowledge and belief, I cannot recall at all 1258(a) an order to concentrate on a matter where Poles should have been substituted or employed.
Q. Do you recall having anything to do with the famous picture, known as "Adam and Eve" when you were in Italy? Do you recall a telegram from Himmler about that?
A. I recall the incident very well of the two world famous paintings "Adam and Eve" which, as I think, were originally located at tho Ufficiae in Florence, I cannot recall, a telegram of Himmler in this connection. I remember , however, apart from these paintings 600 further world famous paintings by Tizian, Raffael, Boticolli. The most famous creation cf the Ufficiae which I saved on my own initiative from shall fire and which I prevented from being transported to Switzerland, as the Duce wished, and from being transported to Germany as some German Departments wished.
Q. You put them under German protection; did you not?
A. As a trustee and that is how I regarded myself when I was the highest SS officer in Italy, my art experts SS Standartenfuehrer Dr. Alexander Langsdorff and Professor Reidemeister, who worked under me in my military administration, I said take those pictures and put then under the protection of my trusteeship. Not a single one was missing when we capitulated in Italy, just as nothing was missing from the collection of gold coins of the King Of Italy, which represented the value of some one hundred million lire and they were untouched when taken over by the Americans.
THE PRESIDENT: Need you ask him anymore about his activities in Italy? We will have the answer following the recess. (A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal Number 2 is again in session.
Q Witness, will you turn to Document 1317 PS, which is page 145 of Your Honor's Document Book 5-B. It is Exhibit No. 111, Dr. Bergold, Now, incidentally, Witness, when you were in London in November you were given copies of many of these documents, were you not?
A Yes, November 1948.
Q By Colonel McClellan?
A I got hold of a number of documents which/I mentioned or which preceded that written statement of mine.
Q And, you had ample time to go over them over there?
A In November, yes.
Q Will you turn to page 111 of Document 1617 PS, I think the soldier has just given it to you; did you ever see that letter before?
A To the best of my knowledge and belief, I did not see it. I believe that this document which has just been submitted to me is the draft of the letter which Dr. Rascher submitted to the Reichsfuehrer for his signature, and sent it to Fieldmarshal Milch. This letter, Himmler had already started to correct it in its original, and among other things he erased this sentence, in the first and second lines, "You will recall that through SS Obergruppenfuehrer Wolff particularly recommends to you for your consideration the work of a certain Dr. Rascher, who is a physician of the Air Force on leave." He crossed out here, "through SS Obergruppenfuehrer Wolff". He wanted to show that, it could clearly be seen from the photostatic copy, that not I told Fieldmarshal Milch who Dr. Rascher was. I only twice sent a promulgation of a report which had already taken place on 16 April 1942 to Hippke, and a half a year later, toward the end of November, the letter to Fieldmarshal Milch concerning the transfer of Rascher from the Luftwaffe to the SS, but I never recommended Rascher' s work to Fieldmarshal Milch.
Q Now, then later in the letter he refers to "non-Christian physicians." That is down in paragraphs 2, 4, 6, 7. At the end of the paragraph, "I suggest that the liaison between you and Wolff and nonChristian physicians should be----"1260 A A (Interposing) Yes, yes, yes, indeed! I knew that at that time I did not see the draft because it was never presented for the signature nor for sending it, but only the writer--in other words, the chief secretary of the Reichsfuehrer, Dr. Brandt, was an accurate basis for that letter which I wrote to Milch, in the second half of November.
Q Then, turning to that other letter, the one which you wrote to Milch, page 179, Exhibit 118, the one we were talking about before. This is the second paragraph in the letter. I think it is on the second page of the German original, the second paragraph from the top.
A Yes.
Q The part where he does not wish that you and he should become angry about the developments. He is of the opinion that it will take at least another decade until we eliminate such narrow mindedness from our people. What were you talking about in that letter narrow mindedness?
A I already mentioned that I did not set up the letter myself. I just signed the letter myself, and probably as I mentioned this morning, I just glanced through it. Maybe I just signed it without having glanced at it, without having read it, due to the fact there was a small slip attached to it; therefore, I am very sorry not to be able to answer this question.
Q You may not have known what was in the letter at all?
A Yes, indeed, that is possible. I do not ascertain that, however, as Dr. Brandt mentioned, who is in the prison jail, according to my opinion, I am sure Dr. Brandt will testify to the effect that he used to present all these letters which were not drawn up by myself, but which had to be signed by me, that he would just submit them to me in order to facilitate my work. He would use a small slip of paper for that work. I want the Prosecution and Tribunal to remember that Dr. Brandt for a period of ton years was Himmler's right-hand, and in these ten years there was not one single case of abuse of Brandt toward me, and I could not sign the amount of signatures that had to be signed daily, and it is not possible that I could have signed all these letters, and glance through them at the same time.
Q What was the name-
A (Interposing) I cannot see anything negative in that.
Q What was the name of your particular assistant, Captain Heckenstaller, was it?
A Heckenstaller, yes, indeed.
Q And, as far as you recall now you never got any advice that the pressure chamber was going to remain in Dachau for an additional two months period?
A May I ask the Prosecution when I heard, that or whether I was not to have heard that, and at what time?
Q. I say, as far as you can recall now?
A. Yes.
Q. You never knew that the pressure chamber was to remain available for experiments for an additional two months period?
A. Yes. Pardon me, but when was that application to be made with the low pressure chamber to be kept there for two more months? We have a letter later on, from November that I take it, that the Prosecutor maybe means something that happened in the summer or perhaps in the spring.
Q. I am going back to the spring, sometime in May or June.
A. According to the best of my knowledge and belief, I cannot remember having heard anything in that respect, because all this correspondence I have not seen, and that I did not see.
Q. You only went to Dachau once in February 1942 with Himmler?
A. In this the experimental business, yes.
Q. Do you remember any other time in 1942 when these experiments were going on?
A. No, at no other time was I there when they had experiments; only I had been in Dachau several times, namely, in peacetime. In other words, I was there accompanying Himmler in order to convince myself everything was in order, was clean, and that the food was good, and that the health of the inmates was good. However, never at any other time did I participate in experiments on human beings, or had anything to do with it.
Q. You never heard of any deaths in connection with the Dachau experiments?
A. No, only now after the capitulation.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you find that the food was good and that the health of the inmates good at Dachau?
THE WITNESS: Yes, indeed. It was so clean that one could actually cat off the floor. The inmates were all very well fed, as well as the people of the Curate of the Catholic and Protestant Church, who were in termed there stated that five years of Nazi concentration camp is about the same as one year in an internment camp after the capitulation.
Q. What was the date of your visit?
A. The last time according to my recollection, that was the Spring 1939, I did make this statement, and during one of my former visits there, as precisely as possible.
Q. The last time that you were at Dachau was in 1939?
A. Mr. President, it is practically impossible without this diary of mine, but if I had my diary I would be able to tell you with one hundred per cent certainty, as I know, however, the whole correspondence of the Reichfuehrer-SS and of his people--of his personnel staff is in the Huff Hauser; it was found in the Huff Hauser and my official diary should also be there, the diary until 18 February 1943.
Q. Was your last visit at Dachau after the war started?
A. Just a moment. According to the best of my knowledge, in November 1939, on the occasion of the activating of the so-called Deathhead Division, Totenkopf Division, which was the Third Motorized SS Division, and the French campaign, which was put into action for the first time under command of Obergruppenfuehrer Eicke-
Q. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Did you not say that you went there with Himmler to observe the high altitude experiments?
A. Yes, what I just said now was in no connection with the high altitude experiments which I had mentioned. Of course, I did participate in this high altitude experiment.
Q. Then you were in Dachau in 1942?
A. Yes, of course.
Q. Well, now, when you went over there in 1942, were the inmates well fed, and healthy? That was your last visit, was it?
A. Yes, that was my last visit in Dachau, indeed.
Q. At that time you found the floor clean enough to eat on, and the inmates were well fed and healthy, and they told you so?
A. Yes, because they had the work, and as everyone knows, one can only work if fed accordingly.
MR. DENNEY: No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Denney, will you explain an exhibit, I think it is No. 111, a draft of a letter, Document No. 1617-PS, which purports to be a letter which was drafted by Rascher, and sent to Hitler. -to Himmler to be signed by him, and forwarded to Milch through the channel -- or purported channel.
MR. DENNEY: That is what this witness said, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: It is not signed.
MR. DENNEY: No, Your Honor, this copy that we have was taken from Himmler's files, and it was put in evidence in the first case, and we have never been able to find the original.
THE PRESIDENT: Is it your impression that it was drafted and prepared by Rascher?
MR. DENNEY: I don't know, sir. I don't know who prepared it. All we know it was in Himmler's files, just as it is stated, and then it is the other exhibit 118, letter dated 21 or 27 November 1942, which the witness sent to Milch, which is substantially the same with some changes. That is as close as we have been able to account.
THE PRESIDENT: In any event, it is doubtless natural that Himmler would write such a letter to Milch.
MR. DENNEY: Yes, to Milch, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Who intended it for him?
MR. DENNEY: Who intended it or drafted it, we don't know.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Witness, I understand you to say that you were in Dachau in 1942?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. And you got a fairly good view of the camp, of the entire camp?
A. We journeyed through the camp very slowly as usual, and we went straight to that low pressure chamber, which was set up in front of the inmates barracks, from which those inmates volunteered for these experiments.
At that time we did not visit the whole camp, because we were mostly interested in these experiments.
Q. You have already testified of theextremely immaculate condition of the camp?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you also visit the extermination sections of Dachau?
A. I learn for the first time here that there was an extermination division in Dachau, Your Honor.
Q. You did not know of the crematory in Dachau when you were there in 1942?
A. No. How was I to know that?
Q. Yes. You knew that the floors were clean enough to eat from, but you did not know -
A. Yes.
Q. (continuing) -- that they were killing people by the hundreds, or thousands in gas chambers, and then cremating them there right on the premises. You did not know that?
A. No, indeed.
Q. But you did know of this extreme purity of the floors on which one could have his dinner.
A. Yes, that is for this reason, Your Honor, because I thought of it myself, as I was in the barracks with these inmates at this time, inside of the barracks, and some distance from the barracks a pressure chamber, and there were clean places on the floor where they could dress. I took a look at these barracks, in other words, these barracks where they slept, and the toilets, and the washing facilities in these barracks, that is how I know it.
Q. And you know nothing about the crematory there at Dachau?
A. No, I don't.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Very well.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please this Tribunal, concerning the truthfulness of this witness, I would like to state that as far as I am informed, these crematories were only set up later on, in other words, not in 1942, not already from the very beginning, Your Honor, were the crematories in the concentration camp of Dachau or in any other concentration camp set up, and one should not consider the final situation of this development compared with the early status of this camp, or with the status to which it was a submittal.
Personally I have no further questions of the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Bergold, in 1942 the war had been in progress three years. The invasion of Poland and the Russian campaign had started.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, correct. Early in 1942 the Russian campaign had been going on for half a year. I have no further questions of the witness,your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may be removed.
THE WITNESS: May I ask you one more question, if this Tribunal is of the opinion that the assumption of the statement that I was mentally sick is correct or not, because it is of great importance to me that this be cleared completely. This statement here that I made, I want to know if it is taken into consideration, and if it is valid, or not?
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, this Court has no authority or right to determine the question which you ask, officially. My colleagues and I are willing to state, however, for your consolation, that your attitude on the stand, the readiness with which you answer questions, the ease with which you understand what is being said, and answer any inquiries, persuades us, personally, that you are an intelligent, sound-minded nan.
THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.
(The witness was excused.)
DR. BERGOLD: May it please this Tribunal, for today I have nothing at all to state. I have neither a document nor a witness, and therefore could you postpone it until tomorrow? However, I do have a request. From those witnesses which were granted me, quite a number of important witnesses have not been transported to Nurnberg as yet, in particular, the witness Vorwald, who, for a long period of years, was the closest cooperator of the defendant and who could clarify most of the points; who, so to say, was a sort of deputy to the defendant and I would appreciate it very much if this Tribunal itself would make the suggestion that the transportation of this witness to Nurnberg be expedited.
THE PRESIDENT: Where is the witness new, Dr. Bergold?
DR. BERGOLD: According to the last news which I received, I understood he was in British captivity in the so-called Muenster Camp of the Lueneburger Heide.
THE PRESIDENT: How far is that from Nurnberg?
DR. BERGOLD: It is approximately the same distance -- if you know Hanover, Your Honors -- I don't know if you do -- it is approximately the distance from here to Hanover. It is on the way from Berlin to Hamburg,that is called the Lueneburger Heide.
THE PRESIDENT: You say he is in the British Zone?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, indeed; as far as I know; that is, in British captivity.