A Yes, absolutely.
Q In such experiments were discussed, in other words, the point of their altitude, in going to sea rescues, were those human experiments or were they only discussing the technical side of the question, which, for us, was the important thing and which we were responsible for.
Q Witness, the question of the flak, ack ack, antiaircraft was discussed several times today. Who was in charge of the flak as a branch of the Luftwaffe, the G. L. or who was it?
A The ack ack was under the Luftgaus as far as it only concerned the hone defense. Apart from that they had a flak course or ack ack course at the front. These flak courses were under the air fleets which fought at the front, and apart from those the army, for its own protection, had its own flak which was called the army flak, or army ack ack.
Q The home flak, Witness, according to your statement, was under the Luftgau. These Luftgaus were they now under the G. L. or Milch respectively?
A No, the Luftgaus were under the Luftfleet of the Reich in Berlin, or Reich Luftfleet shortly before the end of the war. There was another supervision later on. They were never under the G. L. it was a troop, and no troop was under the G. L., but only officers and departments of the ministry and their testing department.
Q The airfleet Reich, was that under the G. L. then?
A No, it was under Goering immediately, just as all the other fleet chiefs.
Q Did the G. L. have anything to do with the flak, with the home flak which had to be set up for the defense of the factories, or who was it ordered that?
A That had been ordered by Hitler himself. In the first order, that was issued by Hitler, I was present.
That was the 4th of November, 1941 at the headquarters in eastern Prussia.
Q It set up the number and the driving. In other words, had nothing to do with the factory?
A No, nothing at all.
Q Of the factories there were home flaks. You mentioned that before, factories that were manned by factory workers?
A Yes.
Q Who were they under, under the factories?
A No, they were also under the Luftgaus.
Q In other words, there was an additional force?
A Yes. They had only a few soldiers, the gunner, the battery leader and their own officers. The others were soldiers or civilians who only worked during alert times and were always present at night. Apart from those there were all the Luftwaffe aids. These were the young pupils.
Q These civilians during the time you were there at the home flak, were they on the same basis as the soldiers?
A Yes.
Q Witness, this morning you spoke about the Jaegerstab meetings. The prosecution asked you who presided during those Jaegerstab meetings when Milch was present. Would you like to repeat your answer?
A The presidency was always in Mr. Sauer's hands. In other words, Mr. Sauer was the president during those meetings.
Q Was that the practical chairmanship or do you mean that Milch was there as an honorary title?
A Yes, he was the chairman, but the meeting was led by Sauer.
Q In other words, do you want so say that, practical chairmanship?
A Yes.
Q Witness, I shall now come back to the speech to the Air Ordnance Quartermaster Generals. The prosecution mentioned to you a number of passages or sentences which were said, that the international law did not play any part and that these foreign laborers should be whipped and similar remarks. You said that you never heard anything about those things. Does that mean that you never heard it or do you mean that you never remembered?
A I cannot remember these words. For instance, the word "whip", I cannot remember that, because had it been used, then I am sure that I would have remembered. I never heard that.
Q Were you constantly present during that particular speech?
A Yes.
Q Witness, you spoke of female Ukranians. Do you know on what sort of planes these women worked?
A Most of the time they worked on transport planes.
Q Witness, another term was used before, that foreigners were employees of the Luftwaffe. Was such a formulation correct?
A No, one cannot say that. They were employees of the firm. By Luftwaffe employees we mean something entirely different, for instance, a clerk in the ministry, but these people are not employees of the Luftwaffe, but only employees or workers of the respective firms to which they were assigned.
Q Now, my last question, witness. We shall come back to that letter. These letters which you signed, did you read them?
A No, one could not do that. For instance, these travel orders, these last travel orders which I mentioned, I just glanced through them, that's all. I had given orders to my adjutant to look through the things in order that there should not be certain travel orders which had been smuggled in there for people who did not need them absolutely, to take them out, and he showed me those travel orders in particular. As far as the rest is concerned, I just signed them without even looking through them, without even reading them, because it was absolutely impossible to go through every travel order and to examine it.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: May I ask a question please?
EXAMINATION BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q You would distinguish, would you not, between a mere formal routine signing and the signing of a rather important communication?
A Yes.
Q So that if there was placed upon your desk a letter of some importance, indicating some policy, you would read it carefully and then sign it. That is true, is it not?
A Yes, I usually carried it out in the following way; that important things were shown to me by the man who was working on it, and I signed them in his presence. The things which were less important were put in certain folders on our table and in the evening I looked through them and signed them. What I mentioned last were those big heaps of travel orders. There it was a routine matter, nothing else.
Q (By Dr. Bergold): Witness, did you look through all those letters in the folders?
A Well, it all depended. In other words, if I was tired on that particular day, then I could not read through everything. I only looked at the letterhead, whom it came from, and then I signed it. We had so much work to do at the time that it was absolutely impossible to read every single letter in itself.
DR. BERGOLD: I have no further questions to put to the witness.
MR. DENNEY: I have one question, Your Honors, which I forgot to put to the witness.
RECROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:
Q You have your soldiers' book with you, do you not?
A Yes.
Q And there are some ten commandments for the German soldier just inside on the front page, are there not?
A They are not in my booklet, but I do know them.
Q You are an old soldier. You learned those when you first went in the Army, didn't you?
A Thirty years.
Q Well, tell the Court what those ten commandments are.
A They say the following, approximately: The fight has to be led in the chivalrous way.
The fight is to be fought in uniform. Prisoners who surrender are not to be shot or killed. The Red Cross is to be observed. Neutral territory may not be stopped on or flown over. Prisoners of war are to be treated in a humane way; their belongings belong to them, and they will stay with them and also their ranks and decorations. The fight is not against the civilian population; the civilian population is to be treated well, particularly the honor of the women. No looting must be done. Reprisals may only be carried out on orders of the higher leadership. Requisitioning and confiscations can only be carried out on proper orders and only be paying those people. That's about the contents, generally speaking.
Q Do you know whether or not the SS had similar principles?
A I do not know that. I never had anything to do with the SS.
DR. BERGOLD: No further questions, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal may escort this witness from the courtroom.
(Witness excused.)
DR. BERGOLD: May it please this Tribunal, I would appreciate it if Mr. Milch could be called to the witness stand.
ERHARD MILCH, the defendant, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE MUSMANNO: The defendant will raise his right hand repeat after me. I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The defendant repeated the oath.)
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, I do not have to tell you the same thing I tell all the other witnesses; namely, that you should speak slowly and all that. You have heard that several times.
Give your full name.
A Erhard Milch.
Q When and where were you born?
A On 30 March 1892, in Wilhelmshaven.
Q Who were your parents?
1696a
A. My father was a clerk with the Jar Navy, with the Kriegsmarine, and my mother was born Vetter.
Q. What education did you have?
A. I attended the gymnasium in Wilhelmshaven, and then from 1905 on I went to the Joachimsthalsche gymnasium in Berlin.
Q. When did you mat riculate?
A. In February, 1910.
Q. What did you study then?
A. I didn't study, but four days later I went to the First Infantry Artillery Regiment in Koeningsberg in Eastern Prussia, and I joined that regiment as a cadet.
Q. Did you ever receive a personal bonus for saving somebody's life?
A. Yes, in 1907, by the Government Counsellor, von Stralsund.
Q. That was At the time when you were a soldier?
A. No, in 1907. I was still in school then. I was in the third but last class.
Q. Would you now tell us briefly your military training?
A. First of all I was in the Regiment for eight months. Three months out of that I had recruit training, basic training, and then I joined the battery. In the autumn of 1910 I attended the Kaiser maneuver in Eastern Prussia, Oh the 1st of October 1910 I visited the War School in Anklam. After nine months there I passed the officers' examination. Then I returned to my regiment and on the 18th of August through a special order then I became Lieutenant. My licence became two years older. Three years in sequence I trained recruits and in 1913 I went through an additional course for artillery officers in the artillery school in Jueterberg in Berlin, and there I reported for the first time in the airfleet. However, later on I didn't get the permission from my commander.
Q Witness, what political education did you have during your military career and as a young officer?
A When I was an officer, and even when I was at home, the questions were to be true to the Kaiser and fatherland and true to my home country. That was the only political education I ever got. The soldier should not deal with political questions, and he has no right to vote. I never understood anything of politics and I did not know anything about it.
Q Was that the general military training concerning the policy which was usual in Germany?
A Yes, it was usual in Germany, and the Kaiser was the only one who wad our superior commander and he was the only one we were responsible to. All the other political institutions had no connection whatsoever to us, and there were no superiors for us. The education in that direction was stressed by the higher-ups.
Q Witness, we have repeatedly mentioned here -- or, witnesses have repeatedly mentioned --- that you used very strong words, strong expressions. Did you learn those when you were a young soldier?
AAt that time it was used among soldiers -- words were not placed on a golden scale. Everywhere and always we swore a lot; we cursed a lot. However, I can assure you that it was never meant in a bad way or serious way. Our soldiers were very willing in spite of that fact.
There were certain abuses of the disciplinary regulations. The official legal way was, during such abuses, to punish them with arrest. That is, he was put in prison for one, two, three days, and sometimes for several weeks In my regiment, as well as with all other regiments of Eastern Prussia, the young soldier was not afraid of -- as he was very scared of an arrest; because, then, after the first year he could not be promoted to corporal; and, after the second year, could not be promoted to NCO.
I never punished a man with arrest for that very simple reason. However, I told him my opinion about his small incident, and sometimes by using strong words so that it actually worked on him, and so that no repetitions occurred. Otherwise, I would not have been able to protest him from being punished with arrest. That is sufficient.
Q Witness, what were you used for during the first war?
A On the first of August, I became Adjutant of the Second Battalion of the Regiment, and used as such. The Battalion consisted of four batteries and one night ammunition column. Very soon we went up to the front in the East where the Russians had penetrated at several points. My battalion fought in the battle of Gumbinnen on the twentieth of August 1914. Then Tannenberg, Villerstellen and Tisset, etc., etc. In the winter cf 1914-15, we returned to eastern Prussia and we occupied the so-called Angerab position. From that position, in February, 1915, we started the winter campaign, the winter battle; and we ended this winter battle in Poland which, at that time, was Russian territory.
Q Witness, can you give us the whole thing in broader lines? We do not want a war history; we just want the broad outlines...
A Well, we had a position-warfare down there, and the great battles were over. I dad not like it any more in the artillery. It was interesting enough, however, and I availed myself of the first opportunity to join the Air Force. I succeeded in doing so the first of July, 1915; after having received my basic training, I went to the Verdun front in autumn, and stayed there during the battles in 1916.
In the summer of 1916 my Group was transferred to the Some, when the Allied attack there had been on for fourteen days.
In the winter I had a greater command which had something to do with organisation and training. In 1917 I was Deputy of Flight, Group Commander, which was near Lille. That Group dealt with long-range reconnaissance. Then, in the spring of 1918, I was put on the General Staff List as candidate. As such, I was put in charge of an infantry company near Arras, Later on, I was put in charge of a field artillery battery, a so-called sturm (accompanying) battery, escort battery. From there on I was put in charge of a flight group, as the commander of it. As far as calling up was concerned, to general staff meetings, did not take place because the war had already progressed too far, I was very glad that I could stay at the front. My Group was in Flanders, in the sector of Ypern. From there on, during the last weeks of the war, I was put in charge of the command, commander of the fighter group which consisted of four squadrons. And I remained in that position --- or, in that position somewhere, the revolution and the collapse took place. I marched back with my troops and took care of the demobilization as had been ordered. And I took that in Graudenz on the Weichsel.
Then I put myself at the disposal of the General Command of the Seventeenth Corps, and was then by the Chief of Staff of the General Command, used for my first political task.
Q Witness, before we reach that point, I would like to ask you a question which I would like to interpolate here. Were you ever wounded during the first war?
A Yes; I had several wounds, but they were rather of a Slight kind. I could stay with my troops.
Q Witness, before you describe to us your activity after the end of the war, with these political tasks, I would like you to tell me what was your opinion about the loss of the war in general.
AAs every other soldier, I was very very sad about it. We never expected such an end. And we never found out how such an end actually occurred 1700a I knew one thing, however.
Namely, we had been beaten on the field; that the war, speaking militaristically, had come to an end, and that the revolution was just a small addition to the whole fight. The war would have been lost even without the revolution.
Q You know that in Germany they were speaking of having been stabbed in the back. Do you agree with that?
A No, I don't, because one could not reproach the German people for that. During the war there had been certain revolts at certain points, but they were of only small importance; and the strikes which took place towards the end in Germany were, according to my opinion, only the reaction of the terrific starvation which had taken place due to the blockade all over Germany.
Q In other words, you are of the same opinion as the militaries that the ammunition workers' strike lead to the end of the war?
A We soldiers thought that this was just propaganda.
Q Tell me, were you of that opinion already at that time -- or is it your opinion today?
A I would not state my opinion at that time if I would not have felt the same way at that tine already.
Q What was your nickname because of your political opinion and attitude within the circle of the land-owners?
A The Red Captain.
Q Tell me, now, about your first political tasks.
A In the field of the Seventeenth Army Corps, on various points, armed bands had formed themselves. They were soldiers who had returned from the war and who did not agree with the situation prevailing at the time. They wanted to fight for their rights with the weapon in their hand. Their political knowledge, however,was not sufficient to tell of whom they wanted to fight against.
They were fighting against everyone and everybody who did not grant them whatever they wanted to have. I went to see the leaders of those gangs. There were three actions I carried out altogether; and I had to convince the captains of these gangs, or the commanders and the chiefs, that they were wrong in their ideas and that they should lay down their weapons; otherwise the general command of the 17th corps would take action. I was all by myself at that time; and no troop could have been put at my disposal in order to enable me to carry out the task. With the help of the Social Democrat fundtionaties I succeeded in quieting down these gangs. In all three cases they dropped their weapons; and then I had the general command get them. These actions lasted over a period of several weeks because sometimes the first attempt was not very successful.
Q Witness, could you stay in the Reichswehr which was then instituted?
A Yes. When the action which I have just described was ended, I applied for use at the front as a customs guard. I was there in charge of an air group, a fighter group or something, until the end of the boundary protection; and only at this point the question arose of who was to join the Reichswehr. I was offered the opportunity of taking over a flyers' group of the 17th corps and an army which at the time was expected to contain 200,000 men. I accepted that offer.
Then, however, only 100,000 men were allowed us by the peace treaty and that without flyers. I was put in charge of an infantry company; but before I could take it over, I was offered a larger group of planes or flyers, which was working and in cooperation with the Landespolizei which had been created at that time. This was not a transfer to the police but only a command. Nothing happened, however, with that matter because the police were allowed to have police air force units and so-called air police, although they were not allowed to have the planes. Thereupon, I renounced taking this command. I did not want to stay in the army any longer. In the meantime the first fi* beginnings of a commercial airline were being put into execution.
Q Witness, we shall come back to that later.
DR. BERGOLD: I would ask the Tribunal that we have a recess.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
THE MARSHAL: The tribunal is in recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.) 1702
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, you have explained to us your attitude with regard to the military losses in the First World War. Now what attitude did you adopt with regard to the Versailles Treaty?
A. The Versailles Treaty was not considered by me to be a good treaty. This treaty could not bring peace to Europe. That Versailles Treaty would lead to numerous difficulties.
Q. Witness, please describe to us how you went into the aviation business after your remaining in the German army forces that were sent out by you.
A. At the beginning of the air traffic, probably with the end of the war, and then in 1921, there arrived on the scene a number of airway companies. I got into touch with one of them, since this company turned to eastern territory, as the first company, and it made this territory, or it started there. I was offered the management, the aviation management of this company at Danzig. The North German Lloyd at Bremen was back of the corporation, as well as the Junkers, Dessaru, and the Albatros works at Berlin. I accepted this position and resigned from the armed forces.
Q. And what were your activities in the commercial company?
A. In the beginning I had to deal with the aircraft and their departure at Danzig, the aeroplanes that used to arrive from Berlin through Stettin, and they left Danzig for Koenigsberg and back.
Sometime later it became important at Danzig, which had now become L free city, that a subsidiary company should be formed, which was a small limited company, the management of which, simultaneously with the other tasks, I was working on. Later the management of the entire route from the technical point of view was handed over to me, so that the clearance offices in Berlin, Stettin, and Koenigsberg were also under my jurisdiction.
Then we started flying to Lithuania and to Kowno, and there we received a concession to extend our lines to that point. The same applied a little later to Latvia, to Riga, that is. In the winter traffic was discontinued at that time for reasons of weather, and during that period I used to work in the central offices in Berlin or during later winters in the factory at Dessau.
In 1922 the shareholders parted Company. The Junkers works retained their part of the service, whereas the North German Lloyd and the others began an enterprise of their own. The Junker works had approached me at the beginning of my activity, and I remained with Junkers. In 1922 I received instructions to get in touch with foreign commercial aviation companies, which were taking up close connections with the Junkers Works. These foreign corporations were buying Junkers aeroplanes. At that time the first real commercial planes in Europe were the Junkers planes, while the remaining commercial traffic was handled by means of converted combatant aircraft.
The first corporation I visited was the Swiss air company, called Ad/Astra at that time. I intended to assist the chiefs of that company in starting air traffic. This air traffic was then connected with the air traffic handled by the Junkers firm, but they understood their business well enough, so that it was more a question of a friendly visit which has continued amongst the survivors up to this day.
Subsequently I had a similar task in Austria and, following that, in Hungary. Later, during the following year, the same applied to Sweden, but as early as the autumn of 1922 I met a few Polish industrialists and was in turn led to the forming of a Polish company, which, however, was buying German material from Junkers, which was being used on the routes Danzig, Lemburg, Cracow. For the first eighteen months, as long as I myself was at Danzig, I was the technical chief for this Polish company, too; that is to say, simultaneously.
In this manner I used to make frequent journeys to Poland in order to negotiate with these business friends of ours on the spot. That was not a particularly easy affair at the time, particularly so far as the Poles were concerned, because these Poles depended upon Trance, and pressure was applied to them not to buy German material.
In the spring of 1924 -- and just previously I had been called to the central office in Berlin in order to take over the entire management, the flying management of this firm -- I was offered to take over a command in South America. In 1923 the Junkers Works had started a flying expedition there, but that had got stuck. Junkers were afraid that through this they would suffer considerable loss of prestige for their firm, and so they gave me the assignment to take over a certain number of aircraft and continue this expedition.
I left in February of 1924, going to Pernambuco, Bahia, where I took over the old expedition, or rather, liquidated it. I went to Rio, and from Rio I went by air to Buenos Aires, taking along these aircraft. There the first foundations were laid for local airways companies, which, of course, during subsequent times, using German equipment, German aircraft, supplied particularly by the Junkers firm and the firm of Dornier, continued to work, and later in the case of the Hansa, this led to the traffic being handled jointly, mostly only for mail, which twice weekly went from Berlin via Rio de Janeiro, Buenos Aires, to Chile, and the remainder of the American west coast.
In the autumn of 1924. Professor Junkers had gone to the United States, following an invitation by Henry Ford. Ford at that time was interested in the construction of aeroplanes, and he wished to establish closer connections with Professor Junkers in that field. As technical advisor, as it was called there, I was called upon by Professor Junkers.
When I arrived, Professor Junkers had already left for Germany, and his arrangements with Ford had not been concluded. I paid a short visit to them, and their factories were shown to me by one of Ford's collaborators, and for the first time in my life I saw manufacturing that used moving belts going on. I was deeply impressed by this visit, since it was put on a basis completely different from that which I had previously seen in Germany.
I was given the order to return to Germany. This was at the end of 1924. In Germany I worked in the future in the central offices under the directors. I was not a member of the board of directors, of course. I worked under the two presidents of the company, and I was given the task to take charge of the management of all the flying business, technical questions, questions of passengers and freight and mail. The financial matters were not dealt with by me.
At that time there were two commercial air traffic companies in Germany, the only two remaining out of the original thirty-four. Both companies, Junkers alone on one side, and all the other large banking corporations and shipping companies on the other, as well as various other big firms such as the AEG, for instance, were involved in a considerable competitive struggle against each other. The government got fed up with this, and when Junkers get into financial difficulties, due to reasons other than air lines, since the sale of air craft was not really a good business in Germany at the time with the military buyer completely lacking, the government used the opportunity to force a fusion.
On that occasion the government turned down both the presidents of the Junkers corporation, and the shareholders chose me as the director who had to join the new company on behalf of the Junkers.
The presidents of the other company remained in office, and that meant that there were three of us. The new corporation was called the Deutschelufthansa, German Lufthansa; this company began to operate in the autumn of 1925, but the official formation date was January 8, 1926. I was in charge, in this board of directors of three, of technical questions and the flying business itself. Some one else was in charge of the financial and. commercial problems, and the third -
Q. This is not so important. Please continue.
A. I considered this work which I joined, having at my disposal an excellent staff, the task for life. I made particular efforts and was known amongst all commercial air companies abroad for the principle that air traffic should be formed, in the first place, considering safety as the first question. This was the first time blind flying came up; let us say flying without visibility to the ground, and it was then that this was developed into a secure matter. All instruments which were being developed, for this purpose were properly developed by us.
In 1928, I think it was, difficulties arose between the government of the Reich -- that is to say, the Reich Ministry for Traffic, which had jurisdiction over us -- and the Reichstag. This was due to political problems which I do not wish to go into in detail but which can be attributed, to the traditional, historical development of air traffic. ihe Reichstag reduced the central subsidy by half, which brought the company into a financially very difficult situation, particularly since it had been deeply in debt before. In the course of this affair the commercial head retired, and the board of directors gave me the task to retain the technical supervision and also to take over financial affairs A (Continued) They insisted, even when I told them that I hadn't even been able to read or understand a balance sheet.
"Please, will you be more brief?" I mentioned this because this led me into a very comprehensive condition in this company which brought me even into closer contact with the work there.
Q What were your intentions in connection with the building up of the air traffic?
A The task was to create a reasonable participation on Germany's part in the developing of air traffic in Europe. Air traffic can always only be an international affair, but particularly in Europe where the distances are extremely short. It wasn't the purpose of the air traffic to connect small towns and small places, but to connect the centers, the large centers of economy. This collaboration in Europe, even after 1926, was probably an example. Very nearly in all other countries a large company with one ownership had developed, and these companies, amongst themselves, were closely inter-connected. We had a so-called international air traffic association to which we all belonged, and in which all joint questions were discussed twice really during meetings. The places for these meetings always changed so that other countries and their institutions too could be seen. During this collaboration, a particularly intimate collaboration had developed with the French, with the Air France, but also with all the other groups, the British Imperial Airways, and whatever the names were. I don't want to list them all. Everywhere close friendship had developed. There was competition. Everybody wanted to produce the best technical results, and our German roup was certainly on the same level with all the others in Europe. There was not any kind of competition financially speaking. We had equal tariffs for passengers, freight and post and mail , just as the national corporation always cleared all foreign aircraft on its own territory The French company flying to Berlin, for instance, did not need to have personnel in Berlin except a general representative who looked after their special interests. The chief representative of the French corporation beyond that was the German Lufthansa, and vice versa.