They were supposed to be obtained now, and then there is the figure of 250,000 a special demand 1906-A made by Hitler personally, which arose from the meeting of the 4th.
The idea was that these people were to be used for anti-aircraft construction work on behalf of the population, and I think that Hitler on that occasion said, "I want 100,000 of those in Vienna alone to be taken from the population there to make bunkers for the population. This total figure then was four million fifty thousand, and I wrote below that Fuehrer conference, "The Fuehrer Conference Special." On the right hand side you will find the figure which had been previously inserted with a typewriter. These figures gave the total figures of laborers in Germany at the time. At the head there is Agriculture, then Forestry, then Armament and War Production, and, then under numeral III and so on, I think I don't need to go into this in detail, but it is quite interesting, I thought, the total, as then being mentioned, which at the time was on 31 May 1943, was actually available. I presume that was the last account that was available, which were up to date, something which at first was something one could not justify, either, because that particular fact after all was not available, and changes taking place, as you know, were very rapid. Altogether 35,901,000 workers were available in Germany. This built up in male Germans about fifteen-one-half million, and the female just fourteen million, a total of not quite thirty million. Then follows the foreigners, male 3,119,000 and the female 1,460,000. Then follows the column Prisoners of War, 1,585,000, and then we come to the new column, that is, who is going to get these workers during the first quarter of 1944. Sauckel's figures named the amount for Agriculture, and to him what could be drawn into that figure. Speer's Armament Department so far as these figures meant had obtained these figures previously from Sauckel, and they had put them here in the document, so that we can see that Agriculture was asking for 200,000. Forestry and Timber industry was 48,000; Armament and War production, including those of coal and iron, and all of that, and also the building industry, and the power industry have 1,700,000 and then an additional 100,000 with reference to the place at the bottom was for removal of air raids, and they would fall outside the Reichsministry for Armament and War Production. In other words, outside of the actual organization of Speer's sphere, this one point certainly did not account to Speer the air force figures, that is obtained altogether in this industry in the Speer Department, because it is not listed and the air force industry, its command of the organization did come under Speer's Ministry.
Then follows Traffic, 70,000 and then comes Distribution, that is Commerce, Banks, Insurance and such, 60,000. That is followed by the Administry figures. From that figure for Administration Civilian and Administration Military, the Military Administration is asking for 126,000. This is a certain total regarding the demand for the first quarter of '44, at the bottom was about 2,104,000 and this was the form in which it was handed to me for that meeting. That is right at the side, and then the discussion showed in Administration, after that named figure I asked -- first, Mr. Backe if he was in actual need of this 200,000 people straight away, he answered yes because these are people I have placed at the disposal of Armament workers for the winter, but in addition I need another 200,000 for the rest of the year, that is later on, not during the third quarter. Immediately preceding they did make a new request which did not interest us a bit. Then followed Forestry, 48,000. I did account for what it was. Then there are two columns, and down there in my handwriting, one is Alphos the Chief of Forestry 25,000 and one is 15,000. Mr. Sauckel is stating those figures talked of Forestry, and when I calculated on 40,000 I then saw that 8,000 can be saved in this connection.
Then followed point three, Armament and Work Production, where it states at the bottom 1.7 millions. Following that I have written at the top of the document "Immediate requirements 544,000." Then the remark further to the right is not connected with this. That was some additional calculation I made later, which does not belong to this story -- this part of the story. Your Honors will be able to see from the figures at the bottom of the second sheet, that instead of 1.7 millions, I only put down 544,000, as being justified, from my point of view; and the figure which is below 1.7 millions in the entry which was made of 100,000 required, in that form I accounted approximately for 15,000, but actually it was 14,735; this reduction I made. The figures for the Transport System, 70,000 I struck off, after having discussed it with the experts.
Likewise, with the Banks and Commerce, to ask for 60,000. I struck that out, too, because I saw that number was not justified for the war. Then in the case of the Administration, the demands were being made by representatives who were present, and who were stating that it was with those figures they could not do anything, which was out of the question, and then there is Public Administration, which had the figure 0 before in addition in the document now suddenly demanded 62,000, and for the Military Administration the demands were made from 130,000 and that was an increase of 4,000, and set at the bottom of this were the stab and anti-aircraft auxiliary figures. The OKW were asking for 80,000, and out of that figure 46,000 of this went to the antiaircraft auxiliary, who were, of course, the German girls - GL, to be asked for by that Ministry there, which was in that connection an increase, so that in the end we arrived at an increase of 192,000, and that is the figure I put down in that manner, because I could not make any reduction for the OKW and my own Ministry in this connection, because on the one hand I could not overlook the reality and necessity of this request, and, secondly, because we were interested in the German girls who were possibly not employable in other spheres, since Hitler in the war employment of German women, even at this particular time, had imposed and was maintaining far reaching restrictions.
If Your Honors will then take the second page, which is executed on the typewriter and which, as I said, I could not check since it seems to have appeared later, then Your Honors will find on the left under the heading of "Necessary Requirements for the Fourth Quarter", inserted with the typewriter, the same figure which I had inserted in handwriting in the older copy, namely, 2,137,000.
In the following column final requirements are listed, and there my figure of 650,000 is calculated more accurately at 645,000, and that is put at the top as the final requirements of the Plenipotentiary for Labor; that is, Sauckel. But, opposed to my statement from the first sheet where 645,000 was meant to be the total of that calculation, one apparently obtained new figures from Sauckel, so that only 645,000 Germans are shown at the top.
In connection with them, I am perfectly convinced that there is a mistake of logic on the part of Speer's Planning Office, because quite certainly it was impossible to raise so many Germans during that particular quarter.
Then at the bottom Polish seasonal workers for agriculture are listed, amounting to 60,000. As has once been explained in this courtroom, even in peacetime seasonal workers were always coming from Poland; harvesters, that is, and the total number of suck workers exceeded the figure of 60,000.
Then there is the new insertion on the returns from the armament and agricultural system, the figure of 200,000, so that final requirements here amount to 905,000, which, however, could, not in reality even be remotely expected. However, we did not have any documentary evidence of our own; not even Speer did. This had to be accepted in the shape in which Sauckel or his representatives reported.
Q Witness, perhaps at this point there could be a short interval, for presumably this is going to take ten minutes, is it not? Just as Your Honors wish, of course.
THE PRESIDENT: Let's go on for ten minutes.
A. The only possible comparison necessary is that of the three small columns on the right which deal with the first quarter in 1944. There appears 1910-A quite suddenly and contrary to the statements which I had made during the meeting, under agriculture an additional 130,000, for the group dealing with the use and distribution of foodstuffs, so that agriculture suddenly leaps up to 330,000.
My estimate had not been accepted by Speer's Ministry, and I think that is clear proof that the figures which I had put it and suggested originally did not represent instructions or orders but merely proposals and that Speer's official considered himself to be completely at liberty to deviate from those proposals of mine without informing me personally of such action. This is nothing extraordinary. It was a perfectly ordinary procedure.
Then follows the list by industry with 40,000 in accordance with the proposal, and then comes the large scale reduction for armament and war production, where my suggestion of 544,000 is adopted. The reduction I made for the traffic system was understood, I assume, because the 85,000 had been put under the Air Raid Precautions, which is only 1,700,000, and they put 85,000 at the bottom. During distribution my proposal is followed, and that figure is struck off.
For public administration the reported figure of 62,000 had somehow been reduced to 27,000 in Speer's department in the meantime, but my other figure of 130,000 for the military administration is now suddenly increased to 165,000, because, as it says at the bottom under Remarks, the German Red Cross is asking for 35,000 Red Cross auxiliary workers. However, in order to stay within the 192,000 which is the total, one is shortening the administrative figure so that the final figure remains the same in this column.
The total at the bottom, including everything, however, departs from 2,400,000 and goes down to 1,291,000.
Now, if my suggestion had been followed, then it would have decreased to 950,000, so that Speer's Ministry was considering approximately 550,000 more than what I had said to be justified, and this meant the last word on this question having been spoken. My suggestion had been partly met, but I had been particularly interested in reducing the figures for armament and war production, and that I had been successful with.
Most of all, if you consider that fluctuation figure, it had, at any rate, amounted to more than 60 per cent of the total requisitions -something shown in the first column -- and if you consider a fluctuation of 2.5 million of these Hitler workers, that is, 1.3 million workers whom Speer had newly acquired and 205,000 of Hitler's other workers, this meant nothing more than that 540,000 for armament and war production were already in existence through transfers, amounting to 550,000 people who were already there, whereas Sauckel was faced only with the task of newly producing 250,000, approximately, for that quarters, but I have said that if he was supplying 40,500 for January and was not supplying many more for February and March, he would probably supply 50,000, and that meant that an increase of the program through Hitler for the armament program could not be carried out and must, therefore, be pictured in that manner in the reports from the Central Planning Board.
At the side of this column on which I have just reported there is another column containing suggestions for allocations. It ends at the bottom, 950,000 which can be expected for allocation, and that figure corresponds with the left hand side where once again, as was to be expected for the first quarter, 950,000 are quoted.
If I look at this, I become aware of the fact that on the right hand side one first of all proceeded to say, "Let's give these people about 900,000 in order to meet their most urgent demands," but one also says that armament and war production are not going to get the 544,000, but only 400,000, and administration -- that is all these girls for antiaircraft work which were to be 192,000 -- they were only to get 55,000, so that at the bottom through these reductions we arrive at 905,000, and that is the figure which on the left hand side Sauckel's man had probably inserted after the meeting of 16 February and submitted to Speer's Planning Office as their total which they were hoping for and had to expect.
Finally, with reference to this part of my testimony, may I say that with reference to the second thing which, of course, I must have had a copy of, I did not take cognizance of it at all. So far as I was concerned, the 1912 matter was settled when the meeting was over, and all I had to know about the whole problem was clear:
Namely, an increase of the armament program was not possible, that I as the responsible person during Speer's absence, would no longer distribute more steel, as had previously been the situation, and thirdly, that I had the inner satisfaction of being able to show these various people, with reference to their high figures, that I could push them down and that I was able to prove to them that their demands were excessive, and fourthly, I knew now that Sauckel's figures were untrue and that the next time when Speer or I reported to Hitler I could now give an accurate report of this, namely that the increase of the armament production is not dependent on the raw materiel allocations nor is it dependent on Speer's production of raw materials. After all, I did have to protect Speer when he was absent. The reason for the lack of increase is contained solely in the question: Sauckel can not furnish any more workers. We can not increase our worker total; according to these figures we are already in difficulties. Regarding the combating of fluctuations, I must point out that from now on the armament program, too, will decline, because figures relating to workers will have to decrease as times goes on.
THE PRESIDENT: There.
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal is in recess for fifteen minutes.
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal No.2 is again in session.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, you told us now about the way this session was carried out, mainly the 53rd Session of Meeting of the Central Planning Board, and that was later on either confirmed or partly altered. Now I want you to finish your statement concerning the 53rd Meeting and to go into details.
A. For the time being I must rectify a certain figure. I have said before that Sauckel in January, in reality would have only brought 14,500 people. However, I looked it up in the records and there were only 13,500 people. From this record, it can also be seen what we thought was the main thing of the whole work. I say that, "For the time being, the defense -- the home defense -- must be brought into order," and by this I mean the air defense. "Only then, we have the possibility to have a basis on which we can rearm and be able to wage a war and which we can live on and be able to continue our work. And it is here that the Luftwaffe must come into action by throwing the enemy out of the home land. We must see to it and try to avoid that the armament industry and whatever goes with it, namely the homes, etc., are not destroyed. The destruction of the homes and of the living possibilities for the workers are bottlenecks against which we have to fight." I must point out this sentence because I will show later on that this was one of the points of my main program. In this record, there are many words which come from me which point to the question of the unit statistics.
I say, for instance, "It is important that clear terms are created, not only for ourselves but also for the gentlemen higher up." By that I meant Hitler and Goering. And then I suggest, "Couldn't the Planning Office," namely, Speer is meant by that, "together with the Plenipotentiary for Labor, and you, General Waeger," that is the Armament Staff or Office of Speer," "Couldn't you clarify the question of the terms which we have to enforce here?" And in order to get a clear cut picture, namely what is the assignment, what is the additional demand - in other words, multiplication - what is the fluctuation, etc., etc., when this is cleared, we have a secure basis for our discussion.
I wish to remind you of the discussion of the Reichsmarshal in Obersalz 1914A berg where there was a meeting--rather, the meeting did not succeed due to these unclarities and nothing happened therefore.
These statistics have to be based on that, and I might add at this point, apart from this conference in the Obersalzberg with Goering, there was one or more other discussions with ministers. They all failed because everyone who was there started out from a different basis, namely, it was the Tower of Babel. Every one of them spoke in a different language a language which the other one couldn't understand, and there was nobody there who could have interpreted. Sauckel's deputies also answered on these wishes that the Gauleiter Sauckel, as of the first of January 1944, intended to create such statistics. It was, according to our opinion, a little bit late.
Then, concerning the fighters, Sauckel's deputy, Mr. Berk said once, "Sauckel has actually brought three million additional workers for the industry in Germany than they had before." I believe that Sauckel, in the Spring of 1942, had been appointed. We were then in February 1944; in other words, it was a month and a year, and ten months of his office. Mr. Kehrl from the Planning Office of Speer says, "He has no new figures," when Sauckel had been there for one year. There was only one million. However, in 1943, the whole thing with the labor assignment became worse. "He wants to say that; however, he doesn't express it. It is absolutely impossible that in these ten months two million additional workers could be brought, and he could not possibly have brought that figure. And then later on I shall come back to a figure which will stress that point.
The gentlemen were getting excited, and I try to calm them saying again that, "The figures, no matter how inaccurate they are, are insufficient." I still think it's a progress because the figures we had so far were still more inaccurate and worse. Then there was, where we urge him to give us more accurate figures--that means Sauckel's deputy, Berk--"That the wage scales with the foreign exchange situation do not have a sufficient urge for the workers from the East, namely, to volunteer for the Reich." In other words, because of this foreign exchange, these people did not want to come to Germany.
This is one of the typical ways how Sauckel's people spoke in these meetings; namely, that they repeatedly expressed the point mainly that these foreign laborers 1915A came on a voluntary basis--absolutely voluntary--and if not their wishes were fulfilled on the monetary or foreign exchange question or problem, they would not fulfill their wishes and would not come.
Then again comes General Waeger from the Armament Office, by using strong words and expressions of indignation, when they say to those higher-ups, "You have received 160,000 people assigned to you." However, in reality, there were only 13,500. Sauckel's deputy says, "I have to reserve myself the right for those figures." However, he is not in a position to conceal those figures, and apart from that, he only brought 145,000 instead of 160,000, which he said. I asked General Waeger if these 13,500 laborers or workers were additional ones; in other words, if they were new workers, and he says, "No, not at all; all together. Whatever was brought in by red slips." in other words, the people who had already been working in Germany were comprised within that figure of 13,500. Then, in order to show you how very unclear these terms were, the fluctuation consisted of two parts; namely, a real one and a faked one. I asked, because this is not very clear to me, "What is the real fluctuation?" By that I mean these people who actually come from the whole working process, while the faked fluctuations were those who went from one factory to the other. Nobody could answer my question.
Then it is in the record again just like in any other record, that a request was made by me that we first of all must organize German workers. I say to that, if we looked at all these figures which were submitted to Sauckel, one gains the feeling that these labor requirements are absolutely impossible in their nature. It concerns the four million which we requested.
And I continue, it strikes me here that the house economy has an additional number of workers, 810,000. I might add here that apart from those forms which we have here, there were five or six large charts which had been pointed on the wall and which contained all sorts of statistics. That is where I was able to get that number, namely, the figure of 810,000. They were on the wall during the meeting of the Central Planning Board. The most interesting of them all is the last figure, namely, that of the employed German Women.
It is absolutely in favor of the mobilization of the German women for work and for armament. That can be seen. I continue, we have to say that these Russian prisoners of war, officers, namely, are right, to have been given the possibility to look around or look about in Germany.
Upon the question which struck him most, he said in Russia, they wage a war with 100 per cent of their population, whereas, in Germany, not even 40 per cent is used. Then I say that is not due to the German people because the German peoples acts in such a mature way, particularly in larger cities, that one can only praise them.
Then I return to the figure of the maids. This figure, in my opinion, is much too high. 950,000 Germans are included. Sauckel's deputy says to that the Fuehrer is against the assignment of women labor for biological reason. I told him what I was trying to do was to follow Hitler's decrees or directive, namely, to activate these women in such a way that they can take the place of men. This should be possible without any difficulty.
After that passage, I say, in the Luftwaffe, for instance, I have found out that Junkers, with respect to the figure of women he had before the war, not even been able to keep up that figure. In reality, the number of German women who today are at the disposal of the war economy is not quite as high as what other countries are able to produce, and what actually would be 1917A necessary in our country also.
There are still reserves which Sauckel could actually activate. With reference to the entire picture, I could see from the chart which was on the wall, that the armament and the war production figures sunk from 100 during peace time, until 89. That is the percentage.
I mentioned here that additional German people or German forces could be mobilized in the Ministries.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Bergold, this has deteriorated into a trial of Sauckel's business acumen. It is far beside the point in which we are interested. I think you should bring it to a conclusion fairly quickly. It is interesting to know what difficulties the armament ministry had, but that is not the purpose of this Tribunal. Much of this material was no connection whatever with what we are determining. I suggest that you make it brief. I think you will have to take charge of the examination and not let the witness have his head.
DR. BERGOLD: I wanted to do that, Your Honor. I thought it too long myself. I wanted to stop it.
Q Witness, we are not so much interested in all these details; that is not the question. I want you to look at the 54th Session or 54th Meeting. There was another discussion there concerning labor assignments. Why is that such a short time after the 16th of February there was another meeting concerning labor assignment?
AAfter the 16th of February, it had not been possible to be able to get some sort of a result from Hitler. When he gave his consent, the increase of armament stopped. Sauckel, in the meantime, had returned from Italy on the 29th of Feb. I was called to the meeting of the first of March suddenly. That invitation also came from Speer's Ministry. Speer was in a hospital that evening, approximately 80 kilometers from Berlin. Speer told me that Sauckel had started this counterattack against Hitler by declaring that the bringing of workers from the exterior, from abroad, was failing due to the fact that Speer had protected factories both in Italy and France.
Q Just a moment. I would like to have one thing corrected. The witness said Sauckel went over to attack--by that he did not mean counterattack 1918A against Speer and Milch.
AAnd Speer then asked me to defend Speer's factories and ours. The whole meeting concerns this question:
Sauckel wants to have the protected factories eliminated and Mr. Kehrl and I are working against him. Sauckel says if these protected factories are left alone, then the whole labor assignment will collapse.
Q Just a moment, Witness, would you answer this question at this point: Did the Luftwaffe, with reference to protected factories, install them before Speer took them over, or did that happen at the same time? Did it happen to many of them or all of them?
A The Luftwaffe in 1941 already installed protective factories in France. And the whole time, they fought against taking workers from France. Speer at that time took over the system. I repeat, Speer took over the system from us. Our system was comparatively small. It confined itself to the industries producing planes in France. Speer's building up of the whole affair was a little more difficult. In order not to be able to get laborers from France into Germany he transferred civilian production to France, also for the German population.
Q Thank you. Continue.
THE PRESIDENT: That is where the trouble comes, you see. You just turned him loose now. You told him to continue. Ask him a question, then you will keep him controlled.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honor, I just interrupted him in order to be able to clarify the question of the installment of protected factories. He declared that the struggle of the 54th Session or Meeting, only concerned attacks by Sauckel. To protect the attack of Sauckel on these protected factories, Sauckel said to the Fuehrer, "It is not my fault. I am guiltless. The blames lie on the protected factories." I wanted him to explain this in detail.
THE PRESIDENT: Let us make sure of this. The protected factories were those from which the workers could not be drafted or taken?
DR. BERGOLD: That is correct. They could not be drafted from there.
THE PRESIDENT: And Sauckel had been attempting to get workers from the protected factories in France and elsewhere?