By saying "I", "I" in this case or in similar cases, refers to the ministry as such. It also said, "Very soon I shall ask these two gentlemen to make a report before my gentlemen of my office-- with or by us-and showing a film." I can not remember this statement or massage, either. I did not write it myself. That I just state there as paragraph 1. Then, later on, I added the following words, "Hoping to be able to sec you during my next visit at your headquarters, I remain, yours as ever, etc., with kind regards..." because the last signature had been signed in a different manner by Hippke. And with this friendly gesture, namely, that I will go and visit him, I "wanted to tame Himmler's nervousness, shall we say by saying that I will come myself, meaning that we will then be able to discuss everything. We don't have to write here much more than that because the way it says, that is, in the first paragraph, was not very polite or could be regarded as impolite by Himmler if one knew him and his susceptibility.
Q Witness, why do you say you had taken knowledge of the report?
A Hippke -- ho was the one who had taken knowledge of the report, and when he had taken knowledge, the Minister or his deputy writes, "I took knowledge."
Q Witness -
A If, for instance, the Ministerial Director of the Ministry takes a trio and visits a factory, then the minister writes, "I, during my trio to the factory so-and-so, I found out the following" --not he was there but one of his higher ranking people in his ministry. However, that is the German ministerial style which was being used and has been used since, particularly with the old ministries.
Q Witness, then later on did you discuss the matter with Himmler?
A No, after this particular incident, as far as I can remember, I never heard anything at all about this. As for the showing of the film I knew nothing about it. That I was the one who wrote the distributer for sending all these reports in, one of those young doctors testified here in 2044A Court.
That would have been the same as if the King of Siam would have been forced to wipe his own room and keen it clean, because I never had to do with such questions of the ministry. And I would have told them my opinion if they would have asked me to such a thing.
Q Witness, didn't you discuss the matter with Wolf?
A Only to the effect, namely, that when Wolf told me everything worked out fine, and the Luftwaffe certainly is glad about it, and satisfied, and that above all, everything is all right between you and Himmler now. And I told him, "Yes, indeed," I had to think it over twice before I could answer. He meant, I know, where it was, though. It was on the seventh of September, 1943 namely in the Fuehrer's headquarters in *inniza, where I, while leaving my quarters there, my billets-- we had our own billets there, namely, the Guest House-no, it was 1942. I am sorry; I made a. mistake-- on the seventh of September.
That was at the time when I went to see Hitler about armament questions or, rather, I had been ordered to see him there. I met Wolf there; and I believe that he walked those fifty or seventy maters with me up to the Fuehrer's Villa, if you want to put it that way. We wanted to discuss things for a little while. However, when I got there, I was called in immediately because Speer was already there with Hitler. That is why I could not discuss things in detail with Wolf. That is the only thing I still can remember; that is, that once, without mentioning the word experiment, we had spoken about the troubles of the relationships between Himmler and myself and the gentlemen in my office. I deduced from that Himmler then felt better about me.
Q. You say, Witness, that you were not present on the 11th of September when they showed the film?
A. No.
Q Didn't you actually ask for the showing of the film?
A. No, I knew nothing about it. Had I known that then, of course I would have invited Mr. Hippke as Number 1 guest; and I can see from here on this document that he was not present.
Q. Where were you on the 11th of September?
A. On the 11th of September I was not in Berlin at all; I was in Rechlin. I had not been in Berlin the night before either; and then I was in Neuruppin where I met Speer later on. On the 12th of September I came back to Berlin. What has been stated is also wrong-that I had seen Goering on the 11th of September and had been ordered there for an oral report. I did not see Goering on the 11th of September, 1942, but the first oral report I made was on the 13th of September with Goering.
Q. Witness, did you discuss the question of the experiments with Goering?
A. Yes.
Q. Concerning these Dachau experiments?
A. No, I only explained to him--yes, with reference to the Dachau experiments. However, I didn't tell him anything about Dachau because I was not too clear myself as to where these experiments were being carried out; and I only told him that Himmler, I believe, had written in his letter that he wishes me to inform the Reichsmarshal as well, that is, Goering.
I was worried for fear if 2046A Himmler should address the Reichsmarshal and perhaps ask him that orders should be issued that this low pressure chamber be out at his disposal again, that Goering then would be able to order it.
Having a knowledge of the whole matter, I had to prevent this.
Therefore, during this long oral report I told Goering towards the end, "As far as this is concerned, Himmler asked me to inform you of the fact that the SS carried out experiments for us and the SS, and of course, wants to be praised for it." I expressed the minister's thanks to him "The medical inspector was not very glad about the experiments. He did tell me that everything was all right. Nothing had happened, however, if he docs not want to continue them because after all Hitler's impression would be that we were not able to carry out such things. Apart from that, Hippke would like to keep the chamber because he needs it himself, the chamber meaning the low pressure chamber; and he did not want to put it at anybody's disposal anymore. It is possible that Himmler will ask you questions as to that."
Goering answered me: "Very well, I am cf your opinion. We'll take care of our things ourselves; and Hippke can keep his low pressure chamber." That's how Goering, who had known nothing about this question before the whole matter was taken care of, reacted.
Q. Witness, did you ever hear anything about the freezing reports?
A. After these things I neither received a report from the medical inspectorate nor from any other agency. The only thing which I forget to mention is that Hippke on the 31st of August said with reference to this whole freezing business, "Nothing will be of benefit to us: and so far I think that the means which our grandmothers gave us were good enough." They had only found out that there were interesting things which had come out during these experiments, mainly from the scientific point of view.
Q. Witness, were you at the Nurnberg conference on the 26th and 27th of October?
A. No; and I would like to know from you what I was to do there. It was purely a session or meeting for special doctors. There were many more important sessions and meetings of a military kind which I did not attend in my position as inspector general; and after all you should not forgot what tasks I had.
Q. Witness, do you remember the letter of Wolf of the 27th of November, 1942?
A. No; and I think it impossible that the letter went to me; that it came to me directly and personally. I believe this because of the date of the 29th of November. From the 1st and the 5th of December I was not at the Reichs aviation Ministry. On the 30th I had been there for a very short time; and all I dealt with was with the trip from the 1st to the 5th of December to Rome. I had very important conferences there with reference to coming production with the Italians; and I also had special orders to discuss there with reference to Rommel, who had just come back from Africa. So that the letter of the 27th of November which was at Berlin either on the 28th or the 29th at the latest was automatically sent to Hippke due to my absence there.
Q. fitness, Hippke testified in this court that ho had only received this letter from you in February.
A. Yes, well, in any case the letter was not with mo until that date. Who kept it I do not know. Some office probably kept it or mislaid it. That was not possible with me. I had no records in my ministry; I had: no files. table was always clean when I left the office in the evening. There never was one single sheet of paper that remained on the desk. In other words, if there was anything the ante-room would have taken care of that anyway; and as I said before I was not there when the letter was supposed to have come and. I don't care if my ante-room, namely, the files which we have there, or Mr. Hippke's office is responsible for this.
Q. Witness, did you receive a letter from Himmler around the same time?
A. No. I saw the records here for the first time; and Himmler's letter, which came as a draft without a date and which was included in the letter drawn up by that notorious Mr. Rascher, who had sent it to Himmler,--this letter seems to have been sent on to Wolf to be answered and to be sent on.
Wolf, with reference to this draft by Rascher, actually used everything verbatim, with the exception of those religious questions which Mr. Rascher had interpolated. He left those out because Wolf know" us officers bettor and he knew definitely that we did not like funny jokes about religion. Wolf guessed right; and he left that out.
2048a
Q. Thank you. Witness, with the exception of Mr. Rascher, did you also know Mr. Ruff and. Mr. Romberg?
A. I mot Ruff once before the war due to the fact that I had given a special flyer's prize to him and. to a few other young fliers. He was a very good pilot, and. ho distinguished himself by carrying on selfexperiments. That, according to my recollection, is the only time that I ever saw him and spoke to him. As for the other man, Romberg, I never knew him before these trials, and I never saw him. Also, I never heard his name.
Q. Witness, in the time that followed, did. you ever find out that Rascher was to be transferred to the SS?
A. No, I know nothing about it.
Q. Did you over do anything about this matter?
A. No. And. I may add. to this also, such inferior questions wore not under my jurisdiction and. did. not belong to my sphere of tasks.
Q. Witness, couldn't one say that because the medical inspectorate was indirectly under your orders that you should have dealt with this whole question a little bit closer?
A. As I was not in charge of these medical questions, I had nothing to do with it. I may add. one thing, that Hippke came to see no with reference to the fact that I mentioned. The fact that Hippke came to see mo with this letter goes to show that he was not on good, terms with the SS and that therefore he came to see mo in order to get help from me by having me sign for him.
On the other hand, however, I was convinced that the SS had not written to me because the SS did not know our competent agencies, and that the officers did not know the competent officers or agencies of the SS. I knew nothing about their organizations and branches, and apart from that Himmler if he ever wrote anything, or said something, he only addressed himself to Goering, or maybe sometimes to me. To Himmler I was just a small man. However, Hippke did not exist at all for him.
Q Witness, did you at any time give orders about medical experiments, or of any other kind, fur Rechlin, or for technical things -
A No.
Q (continuing -- or medical things?
A No, never. That the Benzinger who has been mentioned hero repeatedly was actually unknown to me. However, Rechlin for me amounted to a material for me of ninety-nine percent research. I never saw at all what Benzinger had figured himself, and I never visited his factory which he was supposed to have out there. I made out one thing in reference to low pressure chambers, it was absolutely unknown to mo that we had a mobile pressure chamber, which had been at the disposal of the DVL. That was outside my interest, or anything about that matter.
Q Witness, how far were you interested in those high altitude experiments in question as GL?
A We were interested in the real altitude tests as 1 know it exactly, because I want to state this figure as 13,500 meters, and we added 500 meters in order to get a square figure. However, we knew that this last 500 meters which I had mentioned, we were not too interested in that. We were only interested in the first place in cabin planes, too, after a certain test had been carried out on 388-cabinsuit, whether it did not succeed or fail, because a person could not move properly the way those suits were, due to low pressure up there in the air is felt much more than here on the ground.
Q Witness, were you in charge of the DVL?
A No.
Q Did you have certain powers with reference to disciplinary powers in reference to the DVD?
A No.
Q Did you assign the personnel of the DVL?
A No. I know many things about the DVL, exactly, because up to 1933 my position as director of the German Lufthansa I was present, as already I was part of the Board of the DVL. It was an incorporated association, and had a certain board, which consisted of many industrialists, which at that tine consisted of Professor Junkers, Professor Dornier, Professor Heinkel, and Mr. Heinkel and several other gentlemen and myself. There was also somebody from the German School for Traffic. The money for the flying tests of the DVL carried out material tests for at least ninety-nine percent cane from the Transportation Ministry. That was the purchase. They bought service, and the German Association for Aviation delivered then research notarial, or results. That was the only connection which we had with then, namely, that they bought. However, a registered incorporated association is not in a subsidiary position for an organization in Germany. When I came to the Ministry later on as Secretary of State, I automatically moved out of the Board of DVL, because I represented the government, and that would have interfered with the freedom of the facts.
Q Witness, how was the research work, or how was it organized within the framework of DVL.
Was it under the RLM?
A. When I took over my position as Chief CL, I started a chain organization, a basic chain organization. During that occasion I also created a special department called "Research" which was under the Ministrial Director Baeumker.
Q. Baeumker?
A. Baeumker, and I just dissolved that immediately because it was there without reason to exist. The Rt-H could not possibly give orders for research, neither for us nor for outer persons in Germany. A great number of research institutes were working, which most of them belonged to some university, or to Kaiser Wilhelm Institute, or to some other free organization. For instance, for the Luftwaffe over twenty such institutes worked, and then we had one of them, namely, one of the most important ones at Adlershof. During the conference of the Deputy of the Reichsmarshal for these questions, or with delegates, rather, I agreed to create a research committee of the Reichsmarshal, and these were not under the Reichsmarshal, but they wore free collaborators. This committee consisted of four persons, the president being Professor Prandtl in Goettingen, the most famous streamline expert in Germany, and also Professor Seewald from the technical high school in Aachen, and also Professor Georgii from the technical high school in Darmstadt. Then associated not to be a professor but as principal, Beeumker for the economical question of this research committee. The professors were not in a position, for instance, to give a special report. These things were too far from them. However, these people had to be compensated for cash expenditures, and Baeumker was one who was supposed to take care of that. Baeumker was not a scientist, nor was he a technician either. He was just a clerk, an administrative clerk.
Baeumker preferred then to take care of the research of the Jews into Bavaria, of which he took very good care of the administrative part.
Q Witness, just a minute here. This chart as it appears on the wall, is it right?
AAs far as facts are concerned with Foerster, Foerster was under my orders, and Hippke was under the first order, that is correct. Everything else on this map is wrong. The lefthand side was all directed by Hippke. I don't know it very well, despite the fact I notice the organization at that time was entirely different; and that on. the right hand side, it is nothing but pure fancy without even showing a trace of correctness. I know the righthand side very wall, the people named there are entirely of different tasks, it had nothing to do with research work, and even up there, the way these "brown" offices are drawn up are certainly wrong.
Q Witness, Rascher referred to you as the third witness. Can we not draw a conclusion that you did know him?
A I don't know him, and the first thing I over heard about that man, that was during my examination hero in Nuernberg in 1945. At that time I had asserted I did not know or met him, and did not know his name. Then much later I found out that he had been shot by the SS, namely, I found that out a very short while ago, and the only way I found out any thing about him and of his misdeeds was through those records here, and then I can remember very well that such a criminal of his vanity would have gladly played with my name, so to say, as names were not protected from such things in Germany.
Q Thank you. That is enough. Were you in charge of the Sea-rescue service?
A No. It was under the Quartermaster General.
Q Witness, the last question on this. You heard Herr Becker-Freyseng testify here that Kalk on 11 September called you up by telephone, and asked you in reference to Rascher's film, and what was going on. What could you understand from this question of Kalk's asking you that; wasn't Kalk an expert, and asking you that question?
A. It was on 11 September at about four o'clock. I saw from these records here that Kalk participated in the showing of the film. I can imagine -- this is an assumption though -- that he suddenly heard that the man who had a film was there. Later on he referred to him as the competent adjutant of Hippke and was convinced that this film came from Hippke. That is the only thing I can imagine in this whole connection Kalk was my personal physician. He was with me often. However, for the main thing, he was chief physician of two great hospitals in Berlin. Ho was a civilian doctor and only in officer of the reserve during the war.
Furthermore, in the Medical Inspectorate ho was being used as a consulting internist with Hippke, and in that capacity he went on trips quite often. He was one of our most favored German internists, and he is an expert on all fields with reference to liver diseases and also others.
Q. Thank you; that is enough.
A. That is the reason I did not see him for weeks and weeks. When we were together, we never discussed medical questions. He was a very good pilot, however, and I always put one of my personal planes at his disposal. We discussed only things in connection with flying, in which he was vory deeply interested. However, he knew exactly want my opinion was of the general situation and of my attitude toward my superiors.
Q. Thank you; that is enough. Witness, a very few concluding questions, I am afraid, however, that I shall not be able to get through today. Witness, can you tell me how often in the period 1939 to 1945 you went to see Hitler, Goering, Himmler, or any other SS leaders?
A. Yes, I am in a. position to do so on the basis of the notes that I made daily. I shall give you just a general idea of the whole thing now. I drew up a plan for the years 1939 -- or rather, from 1939 no 1945, which was the time when I was captured. That is six and a half years, approximately at least.
I went to see Hitler 48 times altogether; namely, in general discussion, that is, where other people were also present -- soldiers or officials, etc, 19 times; when I was Inspector General for the Air Forces, eight times;
as Air Ordnance Master General 12 times; when I was in the Central Planning Board, nine times. It occurred often that I discussed two or three tasks at the same time. However, here I have only mentioned the main things.
With Goering I was there at the same time 153 times from 1935 until 1945 -- six and a half years. That is approximately 20 times a year. Also, in general discussion, namely, where other people wore present, 78 times; as Inspector General, 39 times; as GL, 35 times, and with reference to Central planning Board questions, once.
I was with Himmler once in 1939, once in 1940, twice in 1941, namely, with reference to personnel questions. Then in 1942 I did not so him at all. In 1943 I saw him once when he was at Speer's, and once I discussed the general situation with him. That was the question of home defense. Then I met him in 1944 once at Hitler's headquarters. Altogether, this is seven times in those six and a half years.
With reference to all three of these personalities here, Hitler, Goering, and Himmler, I saw them more often than I have said, during official matters, receptions, etc., or during burials or during special banquets. However, I wrote down all these cases in which I had spoken with those men, whether personally or officially.
With reference to the other SS leaders, I met Wolf during the war three times, Heydrich, twice. Both times there were personnel questions regarding my proteges. Daluege, four times, of which three times occurred within a period of three days, one after the other. The question was that the police ham taken over the executive powers of the civilian air raid precautions, the alarm question and the order in air raid shelters, etc, which were before at the Air Ministry. However, it had. been turned over to the police in 1940. It was an agreement which Goering had reached with Himmler without asking us for our consent or advice.
Then in 1943 I met Heydrich's successor, Kaltenbrunner, twice, and here, also, I noted personnel questions concerning the men in my Ministry. That is altogether four persons concerned, and I saw them only six -- twelve times in those six and a half years.
The reason was that I saw these people very seldom.
Q. Witness, I shall come back now to your curriculum vitae. On what occasion was there a final breach between you and Goering?
A. That is a question which is a little difficult to answer because the relationship was a continuous action. From 1937 on the relationship was sinking. In 1941 it looked a little bettor when I was ordered to take over the office of the GL. This lasted for a few months, and then it become worse. After Stalingrad it deteriorated much faster. Then shortly after the formation of the Jaegerstab I received evidence that my wish to withdraw from the Armament was also Goering's wish with reference to me, without his knowing my intentions. In March 1944 he asked Saur for all questions of the Luftwaffe, and not all the questions which were in direct connection with Saur, namely, production, but also questions of development. That facilitated my withdrawal on 20 June.
I may add that Saur could not possibly change this if the Reich Marshal ordered him. He then had to carry it out.
Then there were considerably difficulties with Goering in 1944, or rather, already in 1943. I forgot to say that. That was on the occasion when we showed our equipment in Insterburg, where I was treated in such a way that I could not help but excuse myself with Goering and took off immediately in my plane. A little while later he spoke to mo about it. Then we had several differences.
The reason with me was air defense or no air defense, and I had reproached him of being too soft toward Hitler and that, on the other hand, ho did not permit us to be harsher in our dealings with him. That for me was always the reason. It had. not boon in the personal field. We were strangers to each other. However, I did not mind it, and I did not wish to belong to the closer inner circle of Goering.
During the whole spring of 1944 there was considerable tension, and, of course, I did not act correctly at all times, and I was a little bit too harsh towards him.
Then, on 18 April he called no to Obersalzberg. We had a discussion which lasted for two hours and in which on his only Bodenschatz took part. I was not to take anybody along. He started reproaching no. Then, as we happened to be alone, so to say, I answered the sane way. For instance, he asked me if it were true that I used frank words about him. I said, Yes, that that could be quite possible, and I wished ho would tell no more in detail what it was all about. He gave no a piece of paper on which he had many instances written down from those examples. I could see that my telephones were being monitored. That was the proof, and I reproached him for that. Then I told him that in reality I was harsher than I had actually said over the telephone, and I also told him ay opinion.
THE PRESIDENT: At that point, we will adjourn until tomorrow naming at 9:30.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is recessed until 0930 hours tomorrow morning.
(At 1630 hours, 17 March 1947 a recess was taken until 0930 hours, 18 March 1947.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 18 March, 1947, 0930 hours, Justice Toms, Presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal No. II. The Military Tribunal is now in session. God save the United States of America, and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the courtroom.
ERHARD MILCH - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, yesterday the last question raised here was the conference of the 18th of April, 1944, during which your relation with Goering deteriorated in a decisive way. Will you please continue explaining to us this development?
A. I rejected Goering's reproaches, and I even made my own reproaches to him, and especially I discussed the question that he did not sponsor the air defense in a sufficiently strong manner and that now he could already see the results. We also discussed the question that he, as the President of the Reich Chamber was responsible for the maintenance of the constitution. The discussion lasted for quite some time and I think that this was the final point in our relations.
Q. Is it correct, or rather did you have any knowledge of the fact that at Pentecoto, 1944, even before you were officially to resign when at that time Goering handed over the whole air armament as a whole to Mr. Sauer.
A. Yes, indeed. That was on the 29th of May, Whit Monday. Goering did not wish that I took part in this conference, and as he expressed it he handed over the whole of the air armament to Herr Sauer This was reported to me by my exports who attended this conference, but I consider that a quite nor mal stop in this whole chain of events.