Q. Witness, on the 20th of June, 1944, what happened then?
A. At that particular day I had been summoned to Hitler, and Goering summoned me before the conference with Hitler, and ho told me that the armament was now as a whole and had to be under Speer's supervision as a whole, and that my resignation as G.L. was meant by this new development. He then went together with me to Hitler's. Speer also was present, and now Hitler issued the directive that Speer should take over also the whole of the air armament, and in his presence Goering reported that I, in my capacity as G.L. was resigning and also as Staatssekretaer, that in order not to create the impression of a dispute in public he asked me to continue to remain inspector general of the Luftwaffe.
Q. Witness, then, did you receive a new task with Speer himself?
A. During his talks Hitler had mentioned the fact that I, after all, could help Speer, and that it was possible too that Speer had not quite recovered his health, because, after all, he had been ill for several months, and he asked me also to get a survey of the whole armament ministry. There is nothing more in detail which was mentioned with regard to this fact but Speer may have asked to keep this somehow loose connection with me because in some direction I had to be protected and I could not get this protection from Goering any longer.
Q. In the framework of Speer's organization did you exert an actual task?
A. No, because I had reached an agreement with Speer that I should not work in any capacity in his offices because Speer himself had recovered his health and in this proposal of Hitler's he only saw a pressure on himself because Hitler thus could say, "If you don't do what I want you to do, then I'll have you replaced", and that was not my intention at all.
Q. Witness, when were you removed from your post as Inspector General then?
A. That was during the first days of January 1945. The letter was dated as of the 7th of January. It was received at my offices on January 15. But there was no conference with Goering during all these months.
Q. Witness, what knowledge did you receive of the fact whether, and in what manner, Hitler wanted to take action against you yourself?
A. That was in ---. The 1st of October I had a severe accident, that is, in October 1944, and I was sick until spring of 1945. About this time Speer wanted to use me in order to have the railway station and railway installations which had been damaged by air raids, in order to have these installations repaired, whole life in Germany was paralyzed by these damages. There were no longer communications between the West and the center of the Reich, and the organization of the railways was not up to the task to have these damages repaired and removed. Thereupon, Speer asked Hitler whether he would agree that I take over these repairs.
Hitler then declared "No". He didn't want that. He would take an action against me. That was quite enough material. The post was Mr. Kaltenbrunner, that is, evidence against me, and Mr. Kaltenbrunner had reported to Hitler. Speer, as my friend, succeeded in getting the thing put off because he requested that he himself could look into the matter. Hitler agreed to that and it was found out, after a lot of hemming and hawing from the side of the Gestapo, that in reality there was no evidence at all against me. Speer reported that to Hitler and Hitler answered, "I'm not interested in that. This man has to be removed." But now, in April 1945, when already at that period Berlin was being encircled, I left Berlin on the 26th in the early morning and then I never heard anything about it. There was no disciplinary action against me and a few days later I was captured.
DR. BERGOLD: I have an objection against the translation. The word "vanish", "disappear", it has a double sense in German and that is the sense of having somebody removed, to do away with somebody, rather, make his disappear. The sense here was to have him killed by court action. In that I saw the answer.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: It's very confusing now. Who said this, and---?
DR. BERGOLD: Hitler said this.
A. (continuing) This was the answer to the 5th of March 1943, where during the night I had told him my opinion quite frankly.
Q. Witness, why didn't you try to get out of the Hitler regime earlier, at an earlier moment?
A. When for the first time I saw that this regime, this system, was not a lucky one for Germany, as I had supposed in the first years after 1933 - at that time we were already in the war - I was a soldier and I had fought for my country as a soldier. At that time I didn't think it anything criminal either, that Hitler's intention didn't seem criminal to me and the events in the beginning, after all, made it appear that he was right.
His successes in Poland, in Norway, and also in France, strengthened 2062A his position very strongly with the German people and only after I heard that he was intending new to attack Russia, and to get Germany into a different war, then I thought that was a crime against the German people because such a war could only end with Germany's defeat.
Even for a soldier in Germany it was impossible to resign during the war. After all, he would never have gotten his discharge either. Hitler would only let go the people he wanted to get rid of himself, and after all, I didn't feel myself responsible only to Hitler, but first of all I felt responsible towards my people, and at that time I was still hoping to save at least the German home country from the destructions by air raids. This hope I maintained until the end of 1943. Then I lost this hope and then I started to think by which means I could get out of it. I could not resign. My demand to be used at the front was rejected. Thus I had only one way and that was the way to take over the part of the work which was now the most important and hand it over to Speer and therefore we created this Fighter Staff, and then my resignation, on the 20th of June, came about. There was no other possibility which I saw and during the two years I have been in prison now I often thought it over, what else I could have done, but up until today I have not found a way, which in that period of time and under that government could have given the responsibility to a field marshal to resign. After all, it was quite a miracle that even in this manner I succeeded in resigning. I think that most of the others didn't even have that opportunity.
Q. Witness, just a minute ago you stated that in the beginning you did not think that what Hitler was doing was a crime. You explained to us, however, that you continuously made efforts to preserve the peace. Didn't you think that war was a crime, or did you think that Hitler's reasons for the war were pertinent?
A. I thought even until 1938, yes, until the spring of '39, I strongly believed that Hitler would try to prevent a war in any event. I considered him a bluffer, but however, a man who was clever enough to go on right until the end, and he was too clever to be brought into a bad situation.
However, I observed the whole negotiations concerning the Polish Corrdier, and I considered that the same kind of bluff. Afterward I believed that Poland actually had made this attack on the Gleiwitz Radio Station and also the murdering of tens of thousands of Germans in Brombe and in the other locations. On seeing these conditions I did not consider it a crime that Germany should defend herself against these occurrences.
Q. Witness, you explained to us that during the first period Hitler was a man who was quite accessible to reasonable advice. Later on, in his general nature and in his general countenance, did you see a change?
A. Yes, the change--as I see it now from this moment -- occurred slowly after the annexation of Austria, after the Anschluss. Even the Sudetenland action already exceeded what the Hitler of prior days had considered right. Even stronger the change could be seen when Prague was occupied. During the war the great successes, according to my opinion, changed Hitler completely. Now he was no longer the man who could be influenced by others; he was quite self-confident. He would not brook any opposition and he lost more and more the confidence in his fellow workers, and especially concerning his generals. He considered himself quite a strategist and the successes, after all, were brought about by the military leaders themselves, but he considered that he himself had gained these successes. While, during the first years, he would never accept any flatteries, he was now very accessible to them.
I know that even at the beginning of the war he accepted drugs, and I think he received an inoculation every day, and my doctor told me once that there was strychnine in those inoculations and also hormones, and this doctor, who was a specialist in his field, told me that cannot end well.
A man is changed by these shots, not only in his physical condition, but also in his mental capacity and morally. And he seemed to have deteriorated more and more as time went on and thus, Hitler, who now had been influenced by Stalingrad and had received a special shock, a shock where he actually separated -- at least as his inner feelings were concerned -- he separated from Goering, whom he had appointed his own deputy and his own successor, and from that moment on one could not get along with Hitler anymore. He became an autocrat more and more. Even the slightest objection was shouted down by him.
Thus, in about the year of 1943, and even stronger in 1944, and especially after the attempt on his life, he changed in a way that he was just the contrary of what he was before, and marched in the opposite direction. On one occasion he had written that a war could never be conducted so long that the actual substance of the people would be endangered. At such a moment the chief of the state tried to stop, whatever be the cost, because the substance of the people and the blood of the people was the only thing that was worth saving.
Until 1945 he kept up the lost war in spite of the fact that the substance and the blood of the people had been attacked in a very strong way for a long time already, and thus I could quote quite a number of examples concerning the complete change this man underwent. I did not consider him a normal human being any longer. He was not insane in the sense that one could say he was really insane, but he did not think straight any longer, and his logic was rather unclear.
Q. Witness, a few days ago you told us that in March 1943, during a conference, you had proposed to Hitler to appoint a war cabinet -
A. Yes.
Q. -- and thus to end the dictatorship. Did you continue your efforts in this direction?
A. Yes, ten days later I discussed the matter with Goering, but Goering rejected it in a very harsh manner, and he was not at all ready to head such a movement.
At that time there was nobody else in Germany, however, who would have had the right to head the movement, because at that time his relations with Hitler were all right, and they only deteriorated in the course of the year, and after all, he was the successor who had been appointed by the Reichstag. Then, on the 24th of October -
Q. Of what year?
A. That is 1943, I first approached two gentlemen who were especially near to Goering and who belonged to his close circle of collaborators; that is, the Chief of the General Staff, Korten, with whom I had quite close relations myself. Korten had been, prior to this for long years -- Korten had been my Chief of General Staff, and I also approached a personal friend of Goering's, the General Loerzer. I proposed to them that now there should be a change in the conduct of the German Reich, and in my eyes, as a soldier of course, this was to be done by adequate report and adequate pressure exerted on Hitler.
I did not think of an attempt on Hitler's life at all, or anything of the kind. I reported it to Goering that the war was lost, that steps should have to be taken in order to bring about a peace now, and in contrast with March of the same year, there was no longer time to build up a defensive front on both sides and bring our troops into it, because there was no good defense position to conduct these negotiations.
Goering actually went to Hitler with these proposals, and on the 28th of October, that is four days later, he ordered me to Karinhall, and his word showed clearly that Hitler had rejected his proposal in a very harsh manner. Now Goering reproached me very strongly by telling me that I had influenced him and given him these crazy ideas, and he would not think of letting himself be put into such a problem again.
On the 16th of November, 1943, I discussed once again with the adjutant of the Luftwaffe and went to Hitler with him; that is, he was Hitler's adjutant, and I had a personal confidence in him, and he had quite a good position with Hitler too, because he was an irreproachable man.
I discussed with this adjutant the questions, but already saw from this conference with the adjutant that there was no hope in this field.
Then I gave up my efforts, and then from January onward I tried to get out of my positions.
Q. Witness, after you received the Knight's Cross in 1940, did you receive any distinctions from Hitler, any decorations?
A. Yes, I did, 1940 -- I received the promotion to a Field Marshal, and that was also in 1940. After 1940 I did not receive anything which I considered a distinction as a soldier, because the bonus I received in 1942, yes, I will refer to that later, I couldn't sec any distinction in that as a soldier.
Q. Will you now talk of this bonus which you received? Give us some detail about it.
A. Hitler sent his adjutant -- that was on my 50th birthday and the adjutant brought a picture of Hitler, that is, a photograph, with a dedication, and then he brought me a letter in which he congratulated me, and furthermore there was a check in the amount of 250,000 marks. Hitler wrote in his letter that he knew I was leading a very modest life and he would like to give me the possibility of leading a little bit happier life this way.
I thanked Hitler, and I told him that I accepted the money, because after all, I could not reject it, as a compensation for the fact that I had earned a little less than this amount in my State position than I would have earned if I had remained with the Lufthansa, because my wages in the Lufthansa were twice as high, and even later on, three times as high as the money I got from the State, and therefore I did not consider that as exceeding my merits.
Q. Witness, did the Air Ministry not offer you a bonus, also?
A. That was not a bonus but the president of the Air Ministry told me that the industry wanted to give me a present in the value of 50,000 marks, and I told him that I rejected this present. This, to me, looked like bribing. He immediately withdrew the offer, especially as he knew that never in my life had I accepted a present from the industry.
Q. Witness, -
A. That is, as long as I was in official position--in government position.
Q. Witness, you spoke of bribery now, but was the Air Ministry under your supervision?
A. No. It was not under my supervision; but, after all, they received orders from us. That is, we gave them orders to produce things for us, and during the first period as GL, I took quite a number of steps against individual officials or engineers who were in official positions with the GL because they had accepted presents from the industry, and I had all of them condemned for bribery. Therefore, my own way, the way I had to follow was quite clear to me.
Q. Was it possible for you to remove directors of industry, or to appoint them?
A. No; after all, either there were limited companies or GMBH, or shareholder companies, and they had their own organizations, their own administration. The shareholders appointed the board of directors and the board of directors decided who was to be the general manager, and we never interfered with that.
Q. Did you have a financial share in any of the enterprises cf the Air Industry?
A. No, never.
Q. The agreements with the Air Ministry, therefore, were always free agreements between government and industry, were they?
A. They were agreements--contracts which the industry could accept or reject or for which they could propose changes.
Q. I have only a few remaining questions now. Who was the man who was 2068A competent for death sentences with the Luftwaffe?
A. All death sentences were under Goering's direct supervision. He had reserved the right to decide on that, contrary to what was the custom in the army, where the army commanders had also the right to decide on death sentences.
Q. Concerning the testimony of the witness, Richter, will you please tell us in what manner your 'phone calls' to other agencies or to the supreme command -- Through what channels these 'phone calls' went . . .
My machine had several levers, could in the house touch about four or five of my direct subordinates. When I wanted to make a 'phone call' then I had to get in touch with Richter who was in the ante room, and he had to make the connection with the official channel. I, myself, could not get into this channel directly. All 'phone calls' to Hitler, Goering and other agencies --military or civilians--only went through a special channel, official channel. That was not the normal postal network. In other words, if I wanted to show that in a plastic manner, I took off the receiver, pushed down the button "Richter" and said, "Richter, I want to talk to Goering now." And then I put down the receiver. If Goering was in and was ready to talk with me, then in two minutes I had the connection with Goering--wherever he was; whether he was in Germany or abroad was quite indifferent. Every connection would take only two minutes to be brought about because my talks had priority and all other agencies immediately disconnected; and then Richter told me, "Now the Reichsmarshall will be on the 'phone'," and then I could talk with him.
Thank you. Witness, again concerning the testimony of Richter: What letters did not go through the office of Richter?
A. If I speak from the military viewpoint, there was the open letter always went through Richter. Then there were military secret matters which also went via Richter; but in those cases on his own initiative he did not submit these matters himself out he gave them to the officer Court No. 2 (lrz) of my General Staff or to one of the adjutants, according to which field of tasks the letter belonged.
And then there were the so-called Top Secret matters. These matters were only transmitted by officers--and only directly to the receiver. I could not even show them to the officer of my General Staff. This concerned only questions of operational interest.
- 2069 a Every second year I would receive such a letter headed by Top Secret, this letter would not be seen by Richter, and I couldn't even discuss the letter with anybody unless there was a special order in it that it should be discussed.
And this letter I even had to keep in my own safe.
In a general way, the Top Secret matters were not left with me but they had to be sent back once you had taken knowledge of the contents. But, as I said before, if, during the whole war I have received two Top Secret letters that should be about correct.
Q Witness, concerning your knowledge of the situation which now is subject to the general judgment... In this connection I would like to ask you: Did, at any time during the war, you receive foreign newspapers or were you authorized to read them?
A No, we didn't receive any foreign newspapers. If there were matters concerning air planes in certain newspapers, then we would get a copy, and a copy was sent to us.
Q Were you in a position to hear foreign radio broadcasts, and were you allowed to do so?
A No, that was quite prohibited in Germany, and strictly prohibited for myself. Within the Luftwaffe there were a certain number of persons who had been appointed, and they were authorized to hear the radio of the foreign country. I know, for instance, that the Chief of the General Staff was authorized to do so, and also the Chief of our Signal Service. I was not authorized to do so; and the other Air Marshals who had the air fleets were not authorized to do so, either...
Q Witness, but thousands of persons in Germany have listened in secret to these foreign senders. Couldn't didn't you, yourself, get knowledge of such a manner con cerning the way foreign countries judged the events in Germany?
A First of all, I myself, had the tribunal where Germans where persons were judged when they listened to foreign stations. This tribunal had to condemn, had to sentence a man. And I, as the man in charge of the tribunal, received the sentence submitted to me, and I was asked whether I 2070 a would like to mitigate it.
I shouldn't have held this position if I, myself, would have infringed the regulations.
Second, I, myself, thought it was ridiculous that listening to foreign radio stations was prohibited to the German people. After all, the German people were considered much more immature than they really were. Therefore, I considered it below my dignity to infringe such an order. Also, I would have endangered my people. I couldn't have done that secretly because my adjutant and my ordnance officers were around; they could have heard it themselves or others of the staff... It is true that none of them would have reported me, denounced me but perhaps they would have started to like it and they would have listened to foreign radio stations themselves, and then they would have been in a bad situation and I would have had the moral responsibility for their happenings.
Q Witness, the experts in the Reich Air Ministry - did none of them tell you anything about foreign stations - I mean, the persons who were authorized to listen to these foreign radio stations?
A They had the so-called Fuehrer Order Number One. Therefore, they did not tell me anything.
Q Do you mean to say that during the whole war you never heard anything about the way the foreign countries judged the German events?
A No.
Q On several occasions you have travelled through Germany and through the occupied territories. During these journeys, did you at no occasion notice a thing which was contrary to humanity?
A I think that about ninety-five percent of my journ eys have been by plane and there I could not see anything of that.
And, on the occasions when I used the train which was mainly when I took part in the Fighter Staff journeys - then the travelling took place in a special train and we always went right away to the point where we had to go in order to do our work. And, there again, I had no possibility of seeing anything and on other occasions I had no possibility of travelling.
Q Witness, will you now explain to the Tribunal how over-burdened you were with work during all these years?
2071 a
A May I refer to my field of tasks which is shown in one exhibit?
DR. BERGOLD: May I ask this Tribunal to now see the charts which are in the Document Book Reman II, as first document, and look at this chart?
THE PRESIDENT: You mean defense document book?
DR. BERGOLD: Defense Document Book Number 2, Milch 2. Has the Tribunal found the chart, or doesn't the Tribunal have it? Defense Document Book 2, Page 1.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
A. Until the end of 1941 my main task was to be Inspector General of the Luftwaffe. From that point onward, the work as GL took the main part, while in my capacity as Inspector General I continuously travelled around by plane. But as Inspector General I was bound more strongly to the Berlin Ministry. Oh, I beg your pardon, I mean to say as GL. There we had meetings every day; and in my capacity as GL I took over a tentative staff in the Ministry which exceeded four thousand. I reduced this staff to about half of that; but in spite of that the number of conferences and meetings could not be reduced. Therefore, I had to go through the incredible amount of paper which was to be read and also the paper which had to be signed; and I had to take it home in the evening. I think that always amounted to two large suitcases and sometimes even three of them. On the average I would work at home until 2:00 o'clock. During the night the reading was the main task because in all technical matters I had to be up to the mark myself; and that was not quite simple for me for the very reason that I, after all, had not studied technique but rather was a self-made man and soldier who had been a pilot. In the morning I would start my duties at 9:00 o'clock or at 9:15. In general I would eat my lunch at my desk and often I even ate my dinner at my desk.
I had the impression that I was overburdened with work; and even aside from these two functions, as GL and Inspector General of the Luftwaffe, I, of course, had to conduct different other offices in the Ministry. They made quite a lot of work for me. Even in my last position I was helped very strongly by the excellent General Foerster.
Q. Witness, are the offices as they are shown on this chart which I have submitted to the Tribunal correct, and can you confirm them as such?
A. Yes.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Tribunal, this concludes my interrogation; and I give the witness over to the prosecution. Your witness.
MR. DENNEY: Your Honor, we have some documents which are being brought in; and I wonder if we might adjourn until 11:00 o'clock.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. The Tribunal will recess until 11:00 o'clock.
THE MARSHAL: All persons in the Court please rise. This Tribunal is in recess until 11:00 o'clock.
(A recess was taken.)