A. I don't recall this at the moment, but I can well imagine that I would have taken very strong measures.
Q. Do you recall talking to Himmler about that?
A. I can't recall that, no. But it is quite possible because I myself, would have been unable to take stops myself. All I could do if I heard about 2091-A something --I could only pass it on, unless it had already been dealt with in the normal manner, which is the most likely thing.
Q. Do you recall a speech by Goering on the seventh of November, 1941, which is Document 1206, PS Exhibit 9, in evidence, which has to do with the employment of laborers in war industries?
A. I see that on that day there was a conference of the Four Years' Plan.
Q. Where was that held?
A. I am unable to tell you. Perhaps in the Reich Air Ministry because when Goering had a larger number of people he wanted to address, he needed our big halls; and then he used to come to the Reich Air Ministry.
Q. You have seen Exhibit 9, in evidence of the Prosecution, which are notes on the outline laid down by Goering in this meeting, have you not?
A. I don't recall it at the moment.
Q. Were you at this meeting?
A. I don't recall it. At that time I was not interested in that question yet; and from the list which is attached underneath, I see that none of my officials were present.
Q. Then you don't have anything in the notes that you have to indicate whether you were there or not?
A. No; there is nothing there. Whenever Goering came to the Ministry --which didn't happen very often--he usually came to see me first --the few times. Then, when he needed a room somewhere in the Ministry I used to accompany him to this place, but I did not remain with him unless it was a meeting which was in my sphere of tasks, which was the general military custom throughout Germany.
Q. Did you ever hear anything about the changing of exchange rates with reference to these foreign workers?
A. No, all that I recall is that sometimes there were complaints that there were difficulties with the offices concerned with that business, with the transfer of wages to the hone countries of the foreigners. I heard that occasionally, but that was not our task. I believe that one document I saw here shows that I am trying to do something about this; that what I said was that something should be done about it because these people should be helped.
MR. DENNEY: I have here a document which I shall read from. This is NOKW-195. We don't have the German copies of it yet, your Honor, and we will submit then this afternoon. I am just going to read from it now, Dr. Bergold. This is NOKW-195. It is a stenographic record of a discussion with the Reichsmarschall on 28 October 1943, held at noon at Karinhall. The subject is the allocation of manpower, the effects of the drafting of laborers. The participants arc rather an interesting list: the Reichsmarshall, Speer, Milch, Sauckel, General von der Heyde, Staatsrat Gritzbach, Dr. Groenner, Ministerial Director Hildebrandt, Landrat Berg, Colonel Biesing, Colonel von Brauchitsch, Director Frydag. The copy which we have is the fourth and bears the signature of the defendant on the outside.
Reading from page 6020 of the original:
"Milch: Interesting are the figures on the decrease of prisoners of war where one had believed they would remain stable. Between January and August the figure went down for the Russians from 22,000 to 19,000 and for the others from 48,000 to 28,000. In the summer the prisoners of war decreased from 70,000 to 48,000."
Then we go along twelve pages later at 6032 when Goering says:
"Here you report to me and to the Fuehrer: From 1 January to 30 September a total of 2,200,000 in manpower could be made available for armament production."
Sauckel interrupts: "But not for the first time."
Goering says: "Among which there were 770,000 prisoners of war. Through allocation 300,000 of these who have been drafted for armament and the armed services and those who left for other reasons were replaced. The labor for the most important armament industry was increased by 650,000, from 5,300,000 to 5,900,000."
Then over on page 6045 Goering says, "Then there is one more question which again belongs here and which in all seriousness must be discussed. Suppose that in the central sector of Holland between Arnheim, Utrecht, and Dortrecht I place at your disposal for three days 15,000 young German soldiers, recruits, who have been there eight days, together with their respective officer corps, for handling the executive, to catch the young Dutchmen. This would have to be carefully prepared, of course, Would you expect good results? It goes without saying that everything must be well organized in advance - transport to move then out, camps to receive them here far away from the Dutch frontier."
Sauckel: "Considering the Dutch population figures, that amounts to something. However, the same should be done in Poland and France."
Goering: "Naturally. After that has been done once, one has to modify the system for the second blow. Then the Dutch people will be no longer out in the streets on Sunday for pleasure promenades."
Speer: "Care should be taken now not to affect the protective industries which we have established there. Their workers are also out for walks on Sundays."
Goering: "First all the people must be brought together in a pen. Then they will be asked individually who works where. Then the men will be selected accordingly."
Sauckel: "We should like to set an example. However, I do not like to rely on this alone for the next year. I should like to ask that one have confidence in us that, reasonably speaking, we are doing things the right way. The factories which Speer has barred to us ---"
And then Goering interrupts: "Really I am not imposing, but when I constantly hear, 'I could do very much more if I only had the executive power', then I am ready to assist you, not permanently, but then for five days or one week, by putting my men at your disposal.
In France also we have training regiments, and the army too can arrange to make certain units available so as to make a big push."
Sauckel: "If I may be permitted to speak quite frankly, the conditions are as follows. All of our military commanders and all our general commissaries with the exception of Koch, the general governors, take the stand that in all of their regions the supreme law is tranquility and order. Also during the present era of war these German people still feel - after all, that is typically German - the inherent obligation of maintaining order in their country and of somehow protecting the local population."
Then they go on, and over here Goering replies to a statement by Sauckel in which says, "May I call attention to the following; That which makes things very difficult for me at the moment is the question of our currency. It is a fact that prices in France and in the entire West are very much out of proportion. If we bring the workers to Germany and according to German standards we pay them just as well as the German workers, that does not help then at all because their families living in the occupied territories can't buy anything with the money that the people transfer. I should like to ask you, Herr Reichsmarschall, to talk with Reichsminister Funk and with other competent officials so that under all circumstances and with all possible means the German Mark will preserve its purchasing power against the French franc just as it was done on the other side during the world war."
Reichsmarshall: "All we need to do is to fix the rate of exchange, just as was done at that time with the dollar, i.e., today the German mark equals 20 francs, tomorrow 23, then 27, then 40, and so forth, up to one million, or one billion. We have had all that. The same holds true for the guilder. One cigarette now costs in Holland 1.50 guilders; formerly it cost 10 cents. I merely have to say, 1.50 guilders equal 10 pfennig or one mark equals 15 guildiers."
Sauckel: "That would solve a big problem in the wage question."
Goering: "The same is done in Belgium. I shall schedule a discussion on that with Mr. Funk. With friendly nations it is more difficult; nevertheless, there, too, we have to do it."
Sauckel: "There is still something I should like to say. If this large-scale recruiting is carried into effect, even with coercion, it is nothing but compliance with laws which were promulgated there by their own governments, except that the governments declare they lack the executive power."
Goering: "That is always the excuse. I simply shall give them the executive power. Let me summarize it once more. We undoubtedly are agreed on the fact that what Sauckel brings to us here, and that which to us appears as stocking up, has been subject to a natural compromise and actually a greeter number of people was necessary to make up for the losses. If it had been impossible to obtain more labor, there would of , necessity have been a decrease merely by reason of the draft, the increased rate of disease during the war, deaths, etc. The decrease in prisoners of war should really be insignificant unless there are modifications. On the contrary, I should like to see that the prisoners of war who had been released, Norwegians and so forth, be taken again. Insofar as officers are concerned, this has been done to a certain extent. It was the greatest nonsense ever committed by us and for which nobody thanks us. We have made prisoners of entire armies and we let them go again. We do not get anything from Norway."
Sauckel: "No, even Russians are being taken there, also French specialists. The tasks there are much bigger than the population can cope with."
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. Do you recall this meeting?
A. I recall that there was a meeting there, but the content I do not recall in detail because, one, it happened a long time ago, and, second, because that meeting had been preceded by a personal talk with Goering, which I described this morning, when a terrific argument occurred between Goering and me.
That was the day when Goering, after Hitler had turned him down in the formation of a new cabinet, made me responsible for his failure. Consequently I was very preoccupied and depressed therefrom. There were so many conferences during the war and so much was talked over by everybody that even somebody who had a better memory than I would have been unable to recall a thing like that because of the fact that these subjects were only hurriedly touched upon, as it were, first of all. Everybody tried, like Goering or Sauckel, to help in this very difficult situation.
Q. What was the difficult situation? The obtaining of labor?
A. No, that was the extremely unhappy military situation. Others had seen, too, that a different kind of effort would be necessary in order to get out of this war relatively unscathed.
Q. Do you, recall anything about Goering's little lecture on economy there, foreign exchange values?
A. From that mooting you mean? No, I do not recall that.
MR. DENNEY: I wonder if we could adjourn now for lunch, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn until 1:30.
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal Number 2 is in recess until 1330 hours.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The Tribunal reconvened at 1340 hours.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honor pleases, I would like to assign number 134 for Identification to the Document 908-PS, which was read from to the witness, it being a letter from Frank, the Governor General of Poland, to Sauckel, dated 21 November 1943.
THE PRESIDENT: We have not had copies of this yet, have we?
MR. DENNEY: No, sir, not yet, nor has Dr. Bergold.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you be good enough to give us the document number again?
MR. DENNEY: The exhibit number will be 134, and the document number is 908-PS.
THE PRESIDENT: That is a letter from -
MR. DENNEY: Frank, the Governor General of Poland, to Sauckel, dated 21 November 1943. The addressee is Fritz Sauckel, the Plenipotentiary for Labor.
CROSS EXAMINATION -- Continued ERHARD MILCH -- Resumed BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. Witness, I believe you said you kept a diary?
A. A diary? You could not call it exactly a diary. I only took some short notes concerning my stay, and I took down a few notes which contained generally the most important part.
Q. That was lost, was it, or destroyed, when you were captured?
A. It has not been lost. I still have it here, after all.
Q. That is what you are referring to?
A. If I look up where I was at a particular day or what personalities I met, I mean I refer only to the most important questions, not to everything, and I can refer to it and see whom I was with on that day. Sometimes there is a table of contents, too, which is more detailed, according to the interest I had in those questions.
For instance, for 28 October, which you referred to a while ago, I only have the following: My dispute with Goering he had reported to Hitler; he had not obtained anything, and now he started to get rid of his bad humor on me, and now we have a short note again that there was a conference afterwards with Goering. That was in Karinhall. It went on for the whole day. It was one hour from Berlin by car. I noted down that Speer was there, that Sauckel was there, Grawitz, von Der Heide, and some others. There is no mention what subjects were discussed, but the attendance of Sauckel clarifies the matter for me. That is an example of how I would enter these notes in this book.
Q. Insofar as you recall, you were at that meeting on 28 October?
A. Yes, indeed. I have found it here in my book.
Q. Do you recall that we were talking about Exhibit 133, Document NOKW 352, in three parts: the letter from Sauckel to you, together with a copy of his speech made to the gauleiters on 5 and 6 February 1943 in Poson, and your reply to Sauckel? Now, on the prior queries with reference to this, you stated that you do not know whether you read it or not. Your initials appear on the outside of the speech and also on the letter from Sauckel to you.
A. Yes, I said that before; also, that in both instances I made my sign. That moans that I initialed it because it had been submitted to me, but that does not mean that I have read it or that I did not read it. It is quite obvious that I have not read the whole of the speech. I know that perfectly well, but I might have glanced through it. I really couldn't tell whether I have glanced through it, and a notation with a red pencil somewhere is no proof that I made it because that might have been done by the expert who sent it in to me in order to awaken my interest and stress this particular point. After all, I was not the only man to use a red pencil. This red pencil was used in other instances in my office, also, and in other offices.
Q. What do you toll the Court about it now, that you did read it or that you did not read it?
A. No, I certainly have not read the whole of this. This was much too 2099a long, and I did not have that much time to road this whole story.
Above all, it did not concern my field of tasks, at least not directly. There were many speeches at gauleiter conferences, and very often they wore also mimeographed. There were many people who particularly stressed that the speeches they made should be directed to all the offices, but that was not a reason for me, with the burden of work I had, to road through such a long speech. It is possible that it was submitted to me and that I glanced through it.
Q. It must have been submitted to you if your initials are on the outside of the speech.
A. Yes on the outside. I do not contest that it was submitted to me. Certainly it has been submitted to me. That can be seen from the initials "M.I." as also from the date "6/4", that is, the day it arrived at my office and was submitted to me as well as from the "M.I." on the letter that was sent by Sauckel.
Q. Now, with reference to the rate of money in foreign exchange that Goering discussed in that meeting at Karinhall on 28 October 1943, you told the Tribunal that you did not recall hearing about the rate of exchange at that meeting. Do you recall hearing about it at any other time?
A. The rate of exchange, yes, that has been discussed at some occasions, but, with the best of my intentions, I cannot tell you when it was discussed and who discussed it.
A. Do you recall anything regarding the discussions?
Q. No, I have no recollection that it was at that time, but I consider that impossible that I could remember it.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Denney, let's get an unequivocal answer to this. Did you put the initials on the letter from Sauckel?
A. The "M.I.", yes, indeed.
THE PRESIDENT: You wrote that?
A. Yes, I did. I wrote it. Somebody else wrote "to the files--"
THE PRESIDENT: Never mind what somebody else wrote. Now, on the first page of the pamphlet, the printed speech, there are some initials.
Did you write those?
A. On the cover, yes; I did, "M.I., 6/4", that is what I wrote.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
2100a BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. Do you recall saying that Americans were never assigned to work in any of the airplane factories?
A. Yes, I said that.
MR. DENNEY: This is Document NOKW 364, which is a partial translation of the minutes of the Jaegerstab, held on 19 June 1944. The cover page, which is photostated here in German, which will be given to the Secretary General, bears the initials of the defendant.
THE PRESIDENT: Is this a new exhibit?
MR. DENNEY: Yes, Your Honor. This will bear Exhibit Number 135 for identification, if Your Honor pleases. Document NOKW 364, a partial translation of the minutes of the Jaegerstab of a meeting held 19 Juno 1944. On the covering page there appear the initials of the defendant. Perhaps the Secretary General would be good enough to lot Mr. Blakeslee have the original so the cover page can be shown to the defendant. Just show it to him, Mr. Blakeslee.
(A document was handed to the defendant).
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. Witness, those are your initials, are they not?
A. Yes, they are. They mean Engineer General. Those are my initials.
Q. And when you personally received papers you put your initials on them did you not?
A. If it was submitted to me, yes. As it was put on my desk, then I put my initials on it.
Q. And you just put them on the outside page?
A. Yes, as a proof that I passed it on to the agency which should receive these letters. I myself did not participate in that meeting. The next day I retired, and when these matters came into my office, I did not read them, paid I passed them on. That is all I did.
Q. The only part of this document that we are interested in is on page 41, Your Honors.
Who was a Mr. Lange? L-A-N-G-E.
2101a
A. He was a man from tho Speer Ministry, and he was detached to the Fighter Staff.
Q. Do you know Schaede, S-C-H-A-E-D-E?
A. Yes, he also was detached from the Armament Office, or rather, from the Technical Office, and was sent to me by Speer.
Q. Did you know a man named Kleber, K-L-E-B-E-R?
A. Yes, I think he was detached from the High Command of tho Army, or the Supreme Command of the Armed Forces, the OKW.
Q. Starting at the bottom of page 41 with Lange speaking:
"This morning a representative of Dornier, that is, Oberpfaffenhofen, reported to me that 300 Americans who were put to work at the factory refused to work. They simply sat down, drank coffee, and ate corned beef, and could not be persuaded to work in spite of threats of shooting. Now, the question has been asked if we should not start a shooting action. That was turned down by higher authority, though. Thereupon tho 300 Americans were removed. Five hundred Russians are supposed to be coming. I am airing this question because this example can ultimately act infectiously on tho other prisoners of war. The matter should have been bettor brought out from tho beginning. Either these people should never have been put to work, or one should have persisted with severity.
"Schaede: I do not know what the procedure is. The easiest method would be that they get nothing to eat.
"Kleiber: I'll take the matter up.
"Schaede: The matter is clear. We can not shoot them. The Fuehrer refused to do that for fear of reprisals. However, we have had experience with another method. In the camp everything stops for four days. There are no parcels, no rations. This method is also used over there. We'll break them."
Apparently the war was so far along on 19 June 1944 -- some thirteen days after the initiation of the successful beachhead in tho Normandy Peninsula -- that even Hitler would not let them shoot Americans at that time, but Your Honors can see that these men, who were members of the same organization, the Jaegerstab, with which the defendant was connected, seriously considered shooting.
The only thing that prevented them from shooting was that they were afraid of reprisals, and instead of that they said, "Well, we'll just stop everything for four days; don't give them any food. They'll have no rations," and one way or the other, that would break them.
When did this come to your attention?
A I heard that today for the first time, those contents. At that time I didn't read it, and nobody--After all, I resigned on the next day. The submission of the documents could only have taken place after I retired. Most probably I just passed it on to the agency which was concerned with this matter, and that was none of my own agencies. Ay note only means that I sent it back to an agency which was now out of my field of task, and the contents have been shown to me today for the first time.
Q The Dornier factory was an airplane factory, was it not?
A Yes, Dornier was an aircraft factory.
Q They speak here of Oberpfaffenhofen. That is down south west of Munich, is it not?
A Yes, that is somewhere near Munich. You see from this that the allotment of such workers did not pass via the GL, because I never heard anything of the fact that Americans were assigned work at any place.
MR. DENNEY: The next document, if your Honors please, is NOKW-418, which is a partial translation of the minutes of a conference of the General Luftzeugmeister, presided over by the defendant on Tuesday, May 5, 1942.
Q Does your diary show you were present at that meeting on that date?
A Second of May? Second of May, yes.
Q Fifth.
A Oh, the 5th of May you mean.
Q Of 1942. NOKW 418
A Yes, there was a conference of the GL.
Q Do you remember what you talked about there?
A No, I can't remember that.
Q You do not have any notes that would indicate it?
A No, just the fact, I just know the fact there was such a conference.
MR. DENNEY: If your Honors please, we offer this as Exhibit 136 for identification, being document NOKW-418, partial translation of a conference presided over by the defendant on 5 May 1942.
Q Did you know a man named Alpers, A-l-p-e-r-s?
A Yes, I did.
Q That did he do?
A He was in the technical office and he dealt with the questions of procurement of airplanes. That is the airplane without the motor and without equipment.
Q Can you look at the cover page there and see whether or not you initialed this?
A Yes, I can.
MR. DENNEY: Perhaps you had better let him hold on there for a moment. You can go over and sit down if you want to.
Q You note on the first page there that Alpers says, "The reason given is shortage of labor. And in fact there are 2,000 men licking at Heinkel-Oranienburg." And then you said, "As far as the French are concerned, 60,000 of the ones that we had been promised are still missing." How many Frenchmen had you been promised?
A. Well, at the present moment I could not tell you that. I didn't even find the spot so far. Yes, I couldn't tell you what was said at that time, what they promised us at that time.
Q I am interpolating, "40,000 are still missing." So at least you had 20,000 Frenchmen then, didn't you?
A. I think it says 2,000 here.
Q There is an interpolation after the first sentence of your speech or your remarks.
A Somebody made an interpolation at that time, but I didn't say that.
Q Oh, no, you said 60,000 were missing.
A Yes, that is what I said.
Q Somebody else said, no, it is only 40,000, and then you go on to say, "If we get these men," the 40,000 who are missing, "I would assign 2,000 to Heinkel-Oranienburg."
A Yes, I planned that.
Q It is what you said, isn't if?
A I couldn't tell you that I said it.
Q Then a man named Fridag, who was Fridag?
A Fridag was a man who belonged to the main committee for airplane bodies. That was the organization which came from the total armament industry which was organized by Speer.
Q Fridag said, "The French become worse and worse, I threw out 80 of them who will be sent to concentration camps in Russia. They refused to work. The French say at 4 o'clock! "I won't work another hour," and you cannot make them work another hour. This happened four weeks ago all of a sudden, when the first bombing attack on Paris took place, whilst before that the French were the best people." What did you do when Fridag told you he was sending people to concentration camps in Russia?
A I haven't taken any steps at ail after that.
Q Then you said, "We were told at Oranienburg that they were good as long as they don't get spoiled by our German people." Then Fridag said, "It happened here after we got the French from Messerschmitt, according to the French they got a warm meal twice a day there and had their laundry done. We cannot do either. We don't have a warm meal twice a day either.
At Messerschmitt the living conditions were better." And then you said, "Gablenz--" Was that your friend, General Von Gablenz?
A Yes, that was the chief of the planning office.
Q "I want you to get in touch with Reinecke concerning these French." Who was Reinecke, the general in charge of prisoners of war?
A Well, I couldn't tell you that now. After all Reinecke was not personally in charge of the PW's. He had a general there. I couldn't just remember that name now, but I have to read it through. I am not quite in the atmosphere yet. I don't know what it is.
Q Well, anyway, if you told Gablenz to get in touch with Reinecke, you said, "I demand that if the people refuse to work-
A Well, I can't remember that now. I don't know that.
Q You said, "I demand if the people refuse to work they immediately be placed against the wall and shot before all the other workers." You were suggesting rather stringent measures pretty early, weren't you, May 1942?
A I cannot remember anything of the kind, and I cannot imagine either that that has been told in that form.
Q Then you say, "I ask you to get in touch with the Reich Fuehrer SS and to ask him to discuss the matter with the Fuehrer. Now is the right time, unless we do something effective now, the others will become bothersome. I ask that their being sent to concentration camps be taken into consideration too. I will tell you afterwards how you should act in such a matter."