19MA r-M-GES-3-1-Blakley (Simha)
A. It says here on the record, the 23rd of January; and here again it says, "To my records with Milich"; and then it says, "Mi"; and here again it says, "Mi ". On one of them Zmy name is not there; and the handwriting there concerning the files is different from mine.
Q. Then you admit that your signature appears on three of them?
A. Yes, indeed.
MR. DENNEY: In any event I might add here that all of these papers were taken from the files of the defendant in the Reich air Ministry in Berlin, captured by the RAF; and they are currently in the British Air Ministry at 17 Bunk Street London.
THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE PHILLIPS): You mean the files of this defendant?
MR. DENNEY: Yes, sir.
A. May I add something to this, sir? Verbatim records concerning GL meetings were only issued in two copies; and both of then were in my office, with my secretary. Apart from that there were no copies whatsoever in the whole building or anywhere also outside the building. The stenotypists did not keep a copy of them either as they were compelled to destroy the first take. In the RLM, when Germany surrendered there was no longer a copy left. In other words, they must have been brought lore from somewhere also than Berlin.
Q. But you don't dispute that many of those copies which we have shown you bear your initials?
A. No, not at all, I only wish to say that those records could not have been found in Berlin.
Q. Well, wherever they were found they were taken by the RAF to London where they presently are; and those are photostatic copies of them; and they were all taken together. Now, on Page 7929 of the original, Peterson is speaking and he is talking about the withdrawal of the 288 from Junkers.
He says: "Five hundred men could be composed of concentration camp inmates. Those five hundred could be obtained from Himmler. At present a list of names is being drawn up ."
Then you spoke, and you said: "For this purpose we would come to an agreement with Himmler. That we could do. I am convinced that even otherwise 2148(a) we could get the people somehow.
But I am also convinced that this request of one thousand men is an exaggerated request which is meant only to prove to us: You cannot meet your obligations and therefore we cannot get ready with our series. " Do you recall that?
A. I can't read the date here. That was the 19th of October, your Honor?
Q. No, this is the 30th of November.
A. That is of November, 19---?
Q. 1943.
A. Yes, indeed. On my cover page, however, it says October; and on the 19th of October there was a meeting; however, not on the 19th of November.
Q. No, the 30th of November. You also have been handed record of a meeting of the 30th of November.
A. On the 30th, I'm sorry. Yes, on the 30th of November there was a meeting.
Q. Do you recall talking about getting concentration camp inmates from Himmler on that date?
A . No, I don't; and I don't quite see what the question is about.
Q. Apparently it is about getting concentration camp workers to work for you.
A. As far as I can see it's all about Heinkel.
Q. Well, it doesn't make any difference whom it is about. Didn't you talk to Himmler sometime---?
A. No, I did not speak with Himmler about that. I have to think over for a moment what this question is all about. I already said before that at certain given time it was known to me that concentration camp inmates were being used at Heinkel's near Oranienburg; and this seems to be the question about the same thing. The remark I made here goes to show you that the demand for a thousand men by the industry seems exaggerated to me; and I say if we actually were given these thousand men, then we would be in a spot.
By that I mean according to my opinion they couldn't possibly 2149(a) use those people.
Q. Over a little farther in the same note you say: "Since with all this labor they still are very weak and still go on requesting labor, they cannot have produced anything in the past. From all this it appears clearly that these are phony requests which constitute a knowingly exaggerated demand," This is on Page 7930 of the original. "That they say is: you do not grant the necessary primary needs, that,is, the workers and therefore I cannot meet my deadline. How easy-going they are in this regard can soon be seen from the type 209 which was to come out in June. For this type only 165 workers in total were requested; and now we hear: we need an additional one thousand, and furthermore to hear: even then we cannot bring out the type 209 before the end of 1945 or the beginning of 1946. According to my opinion things like that should be brought before a court martial."
A. By that I mean that the firm which was responsible for this ought to be put before a court martial. However, there was no court martial, unfortunately that is one of my usual expressions.
Q. Yes , it seems to be. Now, down a little lower on the page you say: "That I am in a position to classify as key workers a thousand workers individually, that is no miracle." You could classify workers, couldn't you?
A. No, that is not what I mean by that. I am in a position to have checked up. I am speaking of another time where someone was to check up on this man. Then I say that it would be possible to classify and check up on the fact that they could use a thousand men in there and only a fraction of it. That wouldn't be a miracle, and further on I say I want to speak to Frydag and say that that has to be investigated. I say that we cannot permit the crazy demands to be made to us which cannot be fulfilled. I believed this is a clear proof that I stressed the point that all exaggerated requests of the Industry be rejected.
Q. They first brought the request to you, didn't they?
A. No, that isn't it. They sent the request to Sauckel. However, they informed us of the fact that they had made these requests; and furthermore they told us, "If Sauckel cannot give us these people, then we cannot fulfill 2150(a) our program."
Then we thought it over; and we said, "This request is somewhat exaggerated." I have taken the liberty of repeating several times that this was a main task of this agency in my office, that is, with reference to the exaggerated requests of the industry, to press those down to a certain minimum.
Q. If you told them to reduce their requests for labor they would do it. wouldn't they?
A. No, that has nothing to do with it. However, we ourselves sent them on to Speer who passed them on to Sauckel -- "We cannot fulfill the requirements of the industry or, rather, we cannot support it." On the other hand, we told this firm, "Your requests are false, much too high. We cannot allow this. If we hear anything else about this matter and if you make such exaggerated requests, file such requests with Sauckel."
Q. You always kept in touch with the labor situation to know whether or not their requests were exaggerated or normal?
A. That was a task which we had. That belonged to all agencies of every organization which had something to do with the armament. That is, if they found out whether the orders taken over from the industry could be fulfilled or not, with reference to the labor question or, more often, to the material question, and if the firm for instance said, "I need five thousand tons more aluminum," this all had to be examined by me to see that it was correct, so that I could inform the agencies in charge of the distribution of the material, I could tell them whether the request of the industry was correct or if it was not correct. Those labor agencies of Sauckel's, the labor offices, could not survey whether a request made by a factory was technically correct or not, so Sauckel had to assume that when the industry made demands they were justified. However, as we had experts or engineers for this purpose who could check up exactly whether the requests were correct or not. And it was our duty as a matter of course to report this to the superiors and also to tell our industry what they should not do. However, if we had not done that -
THE PRESIDENT: Try to keep the witness in hand, Mr. Denney. He is wandering.
MR. DENNEY: Yes, Your Honor, please.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. Do you recall talking to Himmler in October on the matters of labor? Have a look in your diary and see if -
A. Can you tell me the date, sir.
Q. Sometime in October, the first week or so, 1943?
A. I did not discuss this in October with Himmler. I spoke to him on the 12th of April and on the 12th of November.
Q. Let's look at this meeting of 19 October 1943, page 8391 of the original, Your Honor, Midway of page with the defendant speaking:
"Gen. Field M. Milch: I do not want to reject it, but the man who submitted it is not a clever man. What these people want to do is certainly the following. The other day I talked to Himmler about it, and I told him that his main task should be to see to the protection of German Industry in cases of internal uprisings of the foreign workers (Botokuden). I said, that, consequently, a well established method should exist, and I have already given orders to the Chief AW and to the training stations to get military training in this field."
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Tribunal, I have to raise an objection. In the German copy it says: "A certain disturbance of the Botokuden for the protection of German industry." The words, "The internal trouble of the Botokuden" is missing in the English translation. "For any disturbance at the battle of Botokuden."
MR. DENNEY: Well, I think Your Honor can see this "Internal uprising of the foreign workers."
DR. BERGOLD: It is of the "Botokuden."
THE PRESIDENT: Will some one tell us what "Botokuden" is?
DR. BERGOLD: They are certain negro tribes.
MR. DENNEY: I am told that the term was used to apply to foreign workers as well. However, it is a small point, and we can pass it.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q (continuing) "I said that, consequently, a well established method should exist, and I have already given orders to the Chief AW, and to the training stations to get military training in this field. If for instance in the locality X, an uprising is started, then a sergeant with a few men, or else a lieutenant with 30 men to turn up in the plant, and first of all shoot into the crowd with a machine gun. What he should do after is to shoot down as many people as possible in cases of revolt. I have given orders to the effect even if our own foreign workers are involved. But first of all he must succeed in getting them all laid out flat on the ground. And then every tenth man is to be singled out and shot, while the others are lined up and see it. If our machines are being wrecked, etc. then such measures have to be applied. I said to Himmler: I'll go along with you in your efforts. He said: I want to know where the most important production plants are located. He approaches the armament production in general. I cannot know exactly where that is what they want, but I presume that that is it. Why should we oppose that? He would get that information from Speer anyhow."
You still say you did not talk to Himmler about this?
A. No, I did not discuss that point with Himmler.
Q. Well why were you telling people at the General Luftzeugmeister that you talked with Himmler, if you had not?
A. I cannot recall that today. However, I doubt it that this verbatim record here is correct, and somehow I was particularly excited, and I will say if our planes were being destroyed in the workshops, an energetic measure should be taken then.
Q. That is how you explain putting people on the ground by submachines and then lining them up and then shooting one out of every ten as energetic?
A. I think I cannot remember very well the whole instance myself, because in all of those cases when I was especially excited, I don't know myself what I said at that particular moment.
I believe, however, that it was absolutely clear that no such German order was ever issued, that it never occurred, and I even know exactly that during this time I did not talk to 2153 a Himmler.
Q. You told him you had given orders to that effect?
A. No, I did not.
THE PRESIDENT: Didn't what? Did you say that,or did not give the order?
THE WITNESS: Neither did I discuss them with Himmler, nor did I issue an order.
THE PRESIDENT: But it just said that you had given the orders?
THE WITNESS: No, I never said that.
THE PRESIDENT: You are quoted here -- you are quoting here as saying: "I have given orders to that effect." Did you make that statement?
THE WITNESS: I don't believe that I said such a thing.
THE PRESIDENT: You mean that this report is not true?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I think so.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: To keep the record straight so as to quote correctly the witness, I believe it reads as follows:
"I have given orders to that effect even if our own foreign workers are involved." You read in the record: "I have given orders to the effect."
MR. DENNEY: "I have given orders to that effect," yes, sir. Thank you, sir.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. Now over on page 8453: the meeting of 25 January 1944, you start out by saying: "Have all requests for labor been granted?" Somebody said, "No." and you said, "What is still lacking?" and Diesing said, "Kaufmann can say that." There is some discussion, and over on the next page, page 8454 of the original, Mahnke says, "The labor situation in the motor sector has been mystified by the fact that there have been delays in the assignment of Czech workers. This is especially fine for the type 262, and for Junkers for the TL instruments." Then you say, "We are not speaking of the TL instruments now. The only thing that is decisive for me is the question whether the transport problem in the protectorate has been solved."
And then Diesing told you: "The transports go on. Up to now, 5,000 workers have been brought 2154 a in.
General Weger wanted to ring up the Field Marshal because yesterday he talked this matter over with Minister Speer. Now I do not know whether something has been done in this matter already. I have dispatched a stop cable directed against the practice of taking any people whatsoever from the class 1924 for other production, and I said that Saur, too, assured us even at our last discussion that we shall get all these people. Second, I have protested against giving a despite to transports. Up to now the transports are still going on." Then over on the next page, page 8455 of the original, you say, "We have to get these people. What exactly are we lacking?" and Kaufmann said: "428 German and 677 foreign specialists. The others are auxiliary workers, there is no difficulty in getting them." Then you say: "Apart from that how many auxiliary workers?" Kaufmann Said, "148 German and 1381 foreign auxiliary workers. To that 1532 men are to be added for the plane body construction. They have not yet been declared reserve workers by the special committee. They, too, are for the most part only auxiliary workers. How many of them will be foreigners I cannot say, but I do not think that there will be many."
Do you recall that?
A. Yes, I remember the question concerning these Czech people. The question was that a greater number of Czechs had been destined by Sauckel for the Luftwaffe armament. At that time Czechslovakia, after 15 February 1939, was a part of the German Reich, and these Czechs were to work in Czech factories for the Luftwaffe. This was done because work had already been done both for the Army and the Navy in the old Skoda-werke, and various others, while the Luftwaffe industry was not included. Now an agreement was reached that these Czech laborers were to be sent to Germany for a certain number of months to learn their trade, and then later on they were to work under the treaty terms, and to learn their new trade, and in the meantime all the factories which were under construction in Czechoslovakia were completed, and the people then came back to their home country.
Q You wore taking twenty year old boys from Czechoslovakia, weren't weren't the class of 1924?
A Well, the older age groups were already being employed elsewhere for other purposes. We did not take them, but the GBA had put them at our disposal because these twenty year olds were compelled to work, I believe they were conscripted for some kind of labor service, the same as in Germany. They were to learn this trade.
Q You say that Czechoslovakia was then a part of Germany
A Yes, indeed.
Q As a result of two actions which I believe you described to the Court last Tuesday or Wednesday?
A Yes, those were the enterprises of 1938 and 1939, spring, that is.
Q These Czechs were all voluntary workers?
A I can not tell that; insofar as the question here is the age group of those who were twenty at the time, that is 1944, they were compelled by the law to work, just as a all others in Germany.
(Discussion off the record.)
THE INTERPRETER: Dr. Bergold's objection is that it should read "legally compelled" instead of"compelled by law
MR. DENNEY: I think it is a minor point, but if Dr. Bergold wants the translation to road that they were legally compelled, with "legally" in quotes I certainly have no objections.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q Now, turn over to the meeting of 14 December 1943. You recall being at that?
A On 15 December 1943? Yes, there was a GL meeting at the time.
Q Now, you notice that Kleinrath there -- the man ahead of him is speaking of 30,000 or 35,000.
Kleinrath says:
"From the military sector we received exactly 1100 workers from the Italians. We have no military internees at our disposal. Even the last 16,000 have been given notice by the OKW for January 1."
And then you say:
"Things will not be set right before the whole question of prisoners of war is differently arranged and the prisoners of war withdrawn from the troops. Most of them are just useless camp followers, and in most cases they go over 2156 a to the partisans anyhow.
As long as the army retains the prisoners of war under the present form of administration, we shall never get things straightened out. The Luftwaffe now has a total of, I believe, 50,000 prisoners of war, about 28,000 of which are Russians. This is the total of the Russians at the disposal of the whole industry of Luftwaffe, and it includes the officers in both camps. The situation, after all, is utterly ridiculous if one thinks of the millions which are still alive, and tomorrow we have to make the demand that for the winter the agriculture inevitably has to turn over labor."
Now, how do you account for that statement? First, you are using prisoners of war in the Luftwaffe, and, second, you are using officers. You are an old soldier. You have been in the army for thirty years.
A The question here deals with prisoners of war who are in the armament industry of the Luftwaffe and in one or two places, younger officers, were employed, Russian officers.
We ourselves had no right to visit those factories. specially constructed transport plane was being built there, and I assume that these Russian officers had volunteered for their work. I personally had nothing to do with the question and I never could have heard anything about this whole matter myself, because, as I said, not even the GL was allowed to enter those premises. That was a special order issued by Hitler, the reasons for which I could not find out. Also I don't know if those officers were all being used as supervisors for their people or as interpreters. At least, that is the way I imagined it at the time.
Q Where did you get these figures?
A They must have been submitted on some sort of list of our statistics.
Q You got a list of statistics all the time, didn't you?
A No, we had our own statistics. From our own statistics from the reports which we received from our own industries, and during the examination by Dr. Bergold I mentioned that.
Q How about the other 22,000 prisoners of war that the Luftwaffe was using. What were they? You have told us that they did not have any Americans, and we showed you a Jaegerstab meeting where you had 300 of them working in a factory. Tell us who these other 22,000 were.
A according to what has been submitted to me and what I have seen, these 2157 a were Frenchmen, French prisoners of war.
With reference to American prisoners of war, I knew nothing about than until yesterday when this was submitted to me. I did not know that they were working.
Q Well, what else were in the 22,000 besides French?
A I know only of Frenchmen, and I only saw Frenchmen.
Q You don't mean to tell the Tribunal seriously that you could not go into a factory that was producing Luftwaffe equipment and go in and look around, you a Field Marshal in the air forces, the second ranking man in the Luftwaffe, the man who Hitler was sending to France and the Netherlands and Belgium, and you could not go into a factory and look around if it was a Luftwaffe factory?
A I still adhere to my statement earnestly and truly. This can also be testified to by several witnesses - that I was not allowed to visit that factory.I was in a certain cleared area where the transport plane which I mentioned before was shown to me. Then I wanted to see the factory, which was a little distant from that cleared area. The G-2 man there was very sorry. He said that I had no permission to do so and that, therefore, he could not permit mo to visit the factory. I was humiliated that I had to leave in such a way I could not get inside neither could I see the work being done.
Q Did not that arouse your curiosity as to why they would not lot you see the premises?
A Yes, I asked this, and the man told me that a special order of Hitler applied to everybody, even the highest ranking officers.
Q. Well, they were making something at that factory for your Luftwaffe, weren't they, an airplane?
A Yes, that is correct; transport pianos for the Luftwaffe were being constructed there.
There were certain conditions in Germany which were rather peculiar and in which somebody from a democratic country could not very well place himself and understand the situation. However, that is the way things were in Germany. It was humiliating for me, for instance, that I was not allowed to listen to foreign news broadcasts, but the same thing applied to Germany all the time.
A You could not listen to radios and foreign newscasts because you had something to do with a court that was sentencing people. By the way, what 2158 a sentences did people get for that?
A In my court, they received very mild sentences. The sentence itself was not pronounced by me, but by the judges. I only had the right to reduce the sentence or to reject the proceedings, and also I had a certain right of pardon and I made use of it. I believe that General Raeder here testified to that effect - that in such cases I put the people on probation. That is they would be used at the front.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Let me interrupt, please. I'm sorry. Mr. Denney asked you one very simple question: What was the extent of the punishment meted out to those who listened to foreign broadcasts? Now, why can't you answer that directly? The other is very interesting, but let us have that answer first.