Don't forget that not even 1,000,000 Frenchmen are here as PW's while we have 7 to 8 million soldiers. Therefore, the French are still in a very favorable position. But they must realize that they will be brought to Germany all together if they don't work hard enough at home."
What was your idea of bringing all the Frenchmen to Germany to work?
A No, no, once again we are concerned with prisoners of war being released, of which, of course, since several million had been taken prisoners; especially, as I had been talking to Speer, and he had an order from Hitler to the effect that at that time we should not slow down Sauckel with his block plans completely, something, of course, which we did later on.
Q You still maintain these people were working for you voluntarily?
A Those who were working in France, yes.
Q How about the people who were working in Germany?
AAt that time we were completely convinced they had been recruited voluntarily, if they were not prisoners of war. Prisoners of war, of course, had been placed at our disposal for work by the French government of Vichy, so that their employment was a legal matter.
Q You say it was a legal matter. Did you regard the French government at Vichy as anything else You know what happened to Mr. Lavall?
A. Yes, but you know after the war at the time the French Government of Petain was certainly the leading Government for us.
Q. Well, I won't argue that question with you. When did you first learn that the people over here were not voluntary workers, the Frenchmen who were working, other than the prisoners of war?
A. I cannot give you the exact date. What I know is that there was an agreement regarding the annual employment of the French workers with the French Government, for the purpose of working in Germany, which had been formulated. Naturally it can be assumed that these people who would withdraw were being rounded up and could not be regarded as volunteers, but they were people who by order of their own Government were 2198a were brought to us.
Q When did you say you first learned that concentration camp workers were being used in the Luftwaffe as workers?
A I cannot give you any exact dates on that.
MR. DENNEY: Well, the next document, Your Honor, is NOKW 245, Exhibit No. 157. A particular matter here has to do with a speech by the defendant on page 5407 as follows:
"I told Sauckel that we will cooperate on all matters on the very spot, that we will get the thing done but not smash up anything that is producing for us, or is going to produce. He admitted that his men had acted wrongly. In the program there are 1886 airplanes which we want to deliver. We were to deliver 1790; 130 planes we want to deliver in addition, and I still hope to go beyond that figure. Out of this, the German side has to deliver a planned amount of 1769 planes. On February 20 it already delivered 1290 planes. So far no month was so favorable, especially if you consider that this month has three days less than a normal one. Already 521 fighter planes have been delivered against a planned number of 677. The figure is higher indeed than the plan, and we hope to be able to deliver still somewhat more.
"But we need certain components to be delivered by the French. Sauckel understood that he was wrong and promised to arrange this. We hope he will keep his promise; otherwise, I shall have to use the Reichsmarshal, and something will have to be done so that Sauckel will make up for it by the end of the month. Speer and myself are of the opinion that he must be incorporated somehow in the Central Planning in order to secure manpower for us as well as the material. Now we got the first workers in November; prior to that date none at all. Of course, by taking into account the many fluctuations he arrives at phantastic figures. We try to diminish the fluctuations with the aid of Himmler and Ley.
"The military physicians are put in to examine the men. I have proposed that a man who leaves his working place more than three times a year should be put into a detention camp, and released only when he stays on the very spot. In the Purchasing program we have 20,000 such pigs who are constantly roaming; in our own plants 30,000; in the Armyprogram alone 100,000 which do nothing else but run away.
They run away, contact the next firm, take with them a few useful things in food and clothing, if possible, and away they are. Those fellows would be most pleased if they could report themselves as unemployed at the labor office. The best workers we have are the concentration camp inmates. That is our elite."
How many concentration camp workers did you have working for you at that time in February 1943?
A That I cannot tell you.
Q Well you are calling them the elite of your working program, did you not?
A I am just thinking it over. This cannot be connected with the concentration camps.
Q How did you use Himmler and Ley in connection with the fluctuation of German workers? You seem to call on Mr. Himmler in several instances.
A No, we did not do that.
Q Now Goering was at this meeting too, and also Jeschonnek, who was the Chief of Staff?
A Yes. Only there is something which I must reconstruct in my mind in reference to that meeting. The first question means that Sauckel had interfered with the block hours, and as I am saying he realized his mistake when he was trying to put them right, since we had received parts from France. Let me say it did not really happen in reality, but there was the question of slackers, which was being touched on again. That concerns -- we are not concerned with the ordinary fluctuations, but only the people that were used, only slackers, those being people who kept running away, and the plan was Himmler's recommendation that extra rations above the normal food ration should only be given to such people if they really did work.
However, that proposal was turned down, because it would have meant changes in the administration of rations, and under no circumstances was one prepared to include the firms or plants in which these problems appeared, because from the First World War of 1914, bad 2200A experience had been made in this way.
Ley who had been included in our food program, because he had the welfare of these people in his charge through "Strength and Joy" and other organizations. And through intensifying that part of the work such people who came into that part of the program, or some who were rescued, were to be put into a different mood, which in turn was to result in improved output.
Q You were using Himmler then as early as 22 February 1943 in connection with these people; is that right?
A No, no, I did not employ him or use him. I heard this from him, and in one of the meetings which have been submitted in the minutes, I myself made the suggestion that this system now ought to be employed; maybe that way we would get control of these shirkers. These shirkers who are being spoken of here are traitors who, according to our laws, could most certainly have been punished very severely. They are not ordinary Germany workers. They are abnormal German workers, people who neither wanted to do their duty for their country as soldiers nor as workers in this terrible war, and surely it is a matter of course that we would on our part be most hostile to these people and that we would not have any false pity for them. However, no measure was actually arrived at which could really have brought about or did bring about any changes in this connection.
Q You say that, "The best workers we have are the concentration camp inmates." What kind of concentration camp inmates were you speaking of?
AAs I said, the Heinkel Camp at Oranienburg was the only one I knew of at the time, and I did not have any personal impression of the work done by these people, so that I really cannot imagine that I used this word concentration camp inmates, since I did not know anything about them and how they worked, and I cannot remember anything about another working column in another plant at that time.
Q You certainly couldn't make the statement just based on Oranienburg where you say that you did not have any personal knowledge about what they did.
A No, we must have misunderstood each other. I am denying that concentration camp inmates are being talked about at all in this connection, particularly since I myself could not imagine how they worked.
A You don't recall making this statement at all?
A Regarding the concentration camp, no. That would not have corresponded to the truth. Our best workers were our German workers and I can only have mentioned somehow a special quota of German workers who were the very best, because we were very satisfied with their work.
2202A
Q As far as you know, the concentration camp inmates were all Germans too, weren't they?
A That I would assume, yes. They did not by any means take a place ahead of other German workers. That would be absolutely wrong. I say it was the other way around. Our German workers, the ones who were not in concentration camps, were certainly the ones who were by far the better.
MR. DENNEY: Note that General Vorwald was at that meeting, Your Honors, and I neglected to mention Colonel Brauchitsch, who said that he had never heard anything about beatings or any employments of any foreign workers, was at two of the prior meetings, and also General Vorwald was at two of those which I shall call to the Court's attention.
THE PRESIDENT: We'll take the customary recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal No. 2 is again in session.
Q (By Mr. Denney): Witness, just before the recess reference was made to the Vichy Government, don't you know that the Vichy Government that dealt with the Third Reich was nothing but a puppet government which was forced upon them by Hitler and the rest and they were made under duress to consent to the various impositions which Germany wanted to force upon them?
A. I didn't know that.
Q. Well, you knew that you hadn't signed any peace treaty with France at that time?
A. Yes, I knew that.
Q. When did you find out that the Vichy Government was nothing but a puppet government?
A. That was never told me. My personal regard for Marshall Petain was considerable, and I never hold him to be a puppet nor did I know through which means this government was formed.
Q. Well, you knew from meetings of the Central Planning Board as late as February of 1944 that Sauckel was going over and telling Laval what should be done with reference to French workers?
A. Yes, there were conferences between Laval and Sauckel.
You certainly knew that you were practically at bayonet's point to foreign these people to come over to Germany.
A. No; I didn't see it that way at the time. Right at the end, I saw that the French Government: that is, in 1944, was forcing it's citizens to do things they didn't want to.
Q. Well, throughout these meetings that we have in evidence here, you were telling about how the French hated the Germans, and how they were doing things that were opposed to Germany's best efforts, and you even said in one instance that had you been there, you would have acted exactly the same way. Now, do you think these people came-
A. Yes; I remember that very well. I spoke of the young men, with hot nationalist feelings, for which I have complete understanding, but in the meantime, in the year 1943 I believe, and not all at once, but piecemeal, the French attitude changed towards Germany. In the first years after the Armistice, their attitude toward us was good, and I have many proofs that the relations were very friendly at first. I can't say what contributed to changing this attitude, but certainly one of the main reasons was the fact that Germany's military position deteriorated, and that became obvious for the first time after Stalingrad.
Q. You still say that all of these French workers came over voluntarily?
A. At first, yes. Later they were forced to do so by their own government. To what extent these people were volunteers and when they stopped being volunteers, -- that I can't say.
Q. Well, you say later that they were forced to come by their own government. Now you know that the only act that the Laval Government could do was something that the German Government wanted it to do.
A. I am not informed about that in detail. I never had anything to do with that government myself.
Q. Well, you knew that you never concluded a peace treaty with them for the sole purpose of holding it over their heads. Germany had occupied their country, first in part and then completely. The Wehrmacht was running wild all over France, from the border down to the Pyrenees.
A. That was known to me, and both I and several witnesses, have stated that we considered this condition to be false, and thought that a peace treaty should be drawn up in the interests of both countries.
-2205(a)
Q. Well, now you say that at first they came voluntarily, and then they didn't come voluntarily. When did the involuntary exodus begin?
A. I cannot say that from my own knowledge.
Q. You don't have any idea as to when it started? You made a distinction between two conditions, one which is necessarily inconsistent with the first, and if you knew that the second existed, it would seem that you could tell when it began to exist.
A. No: I cannot say that, because I myself had no immediate insight into the entire matter.
Q. You've heard one French witness here testify, who was a prisoner of war, that he worked upwards of three years in a Luftwaffe factory?
A. I heard that here. Nevertheless, I had no personal experience of what he described here.
Q. You certainly were in a position to have the knowledge. You were the second highest man in the Luftwaffe.
A. That has nothing to do with that.
Q. Well, don't you think it has anything to do with it? You were in a position to have the knowledge, if you had looked.
A. No; I was not. When I went to the factories the only possibility I had was to speak to some extent with the people I met there. I couldn't have spoken to everyone anyway, because there wasn't enough time for that. Then, if someone had come to me and said, "We have complaint", then I might have found out something, but no one turned to me with a complaint, not even when I asked how things were going and whether they had any troubles.
Q. Well, you've told the Court in direct examination that you were rather a minor participant in the affairs so far as the Third Reich was concerned: I have here some photographs which perhaps you can identify for us as to the events and the dates. This is in there -- six photographs here, Your Honor, and we ask that these he marked Exhibit 158 for Identification.
Now, there's one on top here with Hitler and Galland, and then there's one apparently taken at night, of you and Himmler, and someone else seated at a table, and then there's another one in which there are some civilians present where you're at some sort of a meeting.
2206-a
JUDGE PHILLIPS: We only have four.
MR. DENNEY: Perhaps I can see which ones Your Honors have, and then I can arrange to get the others.
This 158 is four parts instead of six, and the remarks about the photo of the civilians at the conference and one with General Galland are withdrawn.
Q. (Continued) Can you tell us on what occasions these photographs were taken?
A. Yes; I can. But let me take as the first, the one where I am shaking hands with Hitler. Next to me is Keitel, is standing on the other side, Himmler. Then, to the right there is one of Hitler's adjutants. This is in front of the Zeughaus, in Berlin, on one of the memorial days in spring. All of the generals who were present in spring were ordered to return at that time. In connection with the celebration there wan a parade, and you can see in the picture how this parade was marching by. Now Hitler is greeting the people who are standing there. Goering was not there; consequently, I, as the senior Luftwaffe officer, attended when this company marched by. On this occasion, Hitler greeted all his higher officers, ministers, and so forth. I can't tell you the year. It could have been 1942 or '3.
Then there is a picture where the Party Badge is prominently displayed. Hitler stands to the left, in the foreground, and I stand as second on his right with my Marshal's baton raised. I assume this was on the occasion of one of the speeches to the Reserve Officers of the branches of the Army which took place twice a year. Roughly 20,000 young officers attended and they were addressed by Hitler for roughly two hours on their duties as officers. On this occasion, too, as a matter of principle, the higher officers were present, and in view of my rank I am sitting there in the first row; namely my rank as Field Marshal. I can't tell what the date of this was. It was certainly before 1944. The Luftwaffe always provided a contingent of six to seven thousand officers on these occasions. Goering never came to these addresses. Consequently I or one of our other Generals always took part.
Now, there are two more pictures. One of them seems to have been taken in peacetime. I am wearing the leather band over my shoulder which was done away with after the war started. So far as I recall that was the inauguration of a winter welfare work. On this occasion, too, all the officers of the rank of General of the Berlin garrison had to take part.
The last picture, I am quite to the right, then Keitel, then in the background two of Hitler's adjutants, then Hitler himself, to the left is a large number of Generals. This too could be the inauguration of a winter relief program. This must have been relatively early in the war, but not before 1940. Hitler is in civilian clothes here, which, during the last four years never were. If the whole place had been photographed you would have seen in all of the pictures that all general officers took part in this on orders from Hitler. I do not believe that there is any proof of any probative value in those pictures as to what my relations with various personages were.
Q. Well, that is for the Court to determine, as to the probative value. I merely offer them to show that at certain times you were certainly well up front along with Himmler, Keitel, Raeder and Hitler. You certainly didn't go up there just to have your picture taken?
A. No, I never did that. You notice the other gentlemen in the first row besides those who were mentioned. Besides in 1940 Germany had a total of twelve Field Marshals who were of the highest military rank.
MR. DENNEY: At this time I would like to hand Dr. Bergold the German copies of certain exhibits which he does not have. The first one is NOKW-267; the next one is NOKW-180; and the third is NOKW-260. Then we also have 908-PS to distribute to everyone, including the German copies. With the delivery of these, Dr. Bergold will have all of the documents which we have not been able to furnish him copies of earlier today.
(Documents distributed)
Do you have them all now, Dr. Bergold?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, I do, thank you.
Q. (By Mr. Denney) This next document is R-134 which we offer as prosecution's exhibit 159 for identification. This letter reached the defendant through rather a circuitous course. It is a letter written by Terboven to Goering in May of 1942, and then from Goering was sent by his adjutant, Brauchitsch, to Milch.
Terboven was the Reich Commissioner for Norway, was he not? Do you recall who Terboven was?
A. Yes, I know.
Q. Well, will you tell us?
A. The Reich Commissioner for Norway.
Q. Norway was where you served as a commander of an Air Fleet, wan it not?
A. In the first part of the war, yes.
Q. When was that, in April and May 1941?
A. I can tell you exactly in a moment. Norway wan occupied on the 9th and on the evening of the 12th I received the order to take over the Fifth Air Fleet. In the days that followed it was decided that the Air Fleet was to be stationed in Oslo in Norway. Then on the 16th of April I flew to Norway and returned on the 7th of May.
Q. Well, Terboven writes to Goering: "Esteemed Reichsmarshal: Attached to this, I forward you an explosive device, which is new according to my knowledge, and which, issued by the Secret Service, an can be construed from the attached copy and translation of the English instructions, servos exclusively for the purpose of sabotage of airplanes.
"Several days ago on an island west of Bergen, we have flushed out a Norwegian sabotage unit, which was trained by the Secret Service, and have found during this, extensive stores of sabotage instruments, some of them of a new kind, among which poison and bacteria can probably be found, and which, as far as they are not known, have been forwarded today to the Reich Security Main Office (RSMA) for closer examination.
"Besides other tasks, this sabotage unit was to begin with their sabotage work with the explosive devices, of which a sample is available on Sola and Herdla; this can be construed from found written directives. Since it must be assumed that similar actions are under way on airfields of the remaining European coast, and assuming, that a means of sabotage, actually unknown until now, is in question here, I forward it to you by the fastest means in order to give you the opportunity to issue the appropriate warning order.
"Unfortunately, two especially deserving officers of the Security Police were killed in the fight against the sabotage unit. We buried 2210-a them this morning at about 1000 hours in the heroes' cemetery in Bergen.
"On the same day, and at the same hour, 18 Norwegians were shot on my order; these had been captured some time previously in the attempt to go to England illegally.
"Also on the same day, the entire community, which granted a hiding place to the sabotage unit, was burned down, and the population was deported. All males were sent to a German concentration camp, without their families receiving any notification about it, the women were sent to a female forced labor camp in Norway, and the children, not capable of working, to a children's home. Heil Hitler, Yours Obiediently, signed Terboven." And it's to Reichsmarchal Hermann Goering in Berlin.
That was then sent to the State Secretary of Air and the Inspector General, the defendant, in his office at the Reich Air Ministry, and he has initialed the front part of the buck slip which, Brauchitsch, then a Major, used, and Brauchitsch, concerned only apparently with the matter of the new explosive and not with the people who had been murdered, says "I am enclosing a copy of a letter by Reich Commissioner Terboven to the Reich Marshal about an airplane bomb generated with air pressure (sample is in possession of Dr. Fischer L.C. 7). It is requested that report and the counter measures instituted be sent here for the Reich Marshal. Dr. Fischer has received a copy of the letter. Signed Brauchitsch, Major."
Then in the lower left-hand part the defendant has written: