A. No; I didn't see it that way at the time. Right at the end, I saw that the French Government: that is, in 1944, was forcing it's citizens to do things they didn't want to.
Q. Well, throughout these meetings that we have in evidence here, you were telling about how the French hated the Germans, and how they were doing things that were opposed to Germany's best efforts, and you even said in one instance that had you been there, you would have acted exactly the same way. Now, do you think these people came-
A. Yes; I remember that very well. I spoke of the young men, with hot nationalist feelings, for which I have complete understanding, but in the meantime, in the year 1943 I believe, and not all at once, but piecemeal, the French attitude changed towards Germany. In the first years after the Armistice, their attitude toward us was good, and I have many proofs that the relations were very friendly at first. I can't say what contributed to changing this attitude, but certainly one of the main reasons was the fact that Germany's military position deteriorated, and that became obvious for the first time after Stalingrad.
Q. You still say that all of these French workers came over voluntarily?
A. At first, yes. Later they were forced to do so by their own government. To what extent these people were volunteers and when they stopped being volunteers, -- that I can't say.
Q. Well, you say later that they were forced to come by their own government. Now you know that the only act that the Laval Government could do was something that the German Government wanted it to do.
A. I am not informed about that in detail. I never had anything to do with that government myself.
Q. Well, you knew that you never concluded a peace treaty with them for the sole purpose of holding it over their heads. Germany had occupied their country, first in part and then completely. The Wehrmacht was running wild all over France, from the border down to the Pyrenees.
A. That was known to me, and both I and several witnesses, have stated that we considered this condition to be false, and thought that a peace treaty should be drawn up in the interests of both countries.
-2205(a)
Q. Well, now you say that at first they came voluntarily, and then they didn't come voluntarily. When did the involuntary exodus begin?
A. I cannot say that from my own knowledge.
Q. You don't have any idea as to when it started? You made a distinction between two conditions, one which is necessarily inconsistent with the first, and if you knew that the second existed, it would seem that you could tell when it began to exist.
A. No: I cannot say that, because I myself had no immediate insight into the entire matter.
Q. You've heard one French witness here testify, who was a prisoner of war, that he worked upwards of three years in a Luftwaffe factory?
A. I heard that here. Nevertheless, I had no personal experience of what he described here.
Q. You certainly were in a position to have the knowledge. You were the second highest man in the Luftwaffe.
A. That has nothing to do with that.
Q. Well, don't you think it has anything to do with it? You were in a position to have the knowledge, if you had looked.
A. No; I was not. When I went to the factories the only possibility I had was to speak to some extent with the people I met there. I couldn't have spoken to everyone anyway, because there wasn't enough time for that. Then, if someone had come to me and said, "We have complaint", then I might have found out something, but no one turned to me with a complaint, not even when I asked how things were going and whether they had any troubles.
Q. Well, you've told the Court in direct examination that you were rather a minor participant in the affairs so far as the Third Reich was concerned: I have here some photographs which perhaps you can identify for us as to the events and the dates. This is in there -- six photographs here, Your Honor, and we ask that these he marked Exhibit 158 for Identification.
Now, there's one on top here with Hitler and Galland, and then there's one apparently taken at night, of you and Himmler, and someone else seated at a table, and then there's another one in which there are some civilians present where you're at some sort of a meeting.
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JUDGE PHILLIPS: We only have four.
MR. DENNEY: Perhaps I can see which ones Your Honors have, and then I can arrange to get the others.
This 158 is four parts instead of six, and the remarks about the photo of the civilians at the conference and one with General Galland are withdrawn.
Q. (Continued) Can you tell us on what occasions these photographs were taken?
A. Yes; I can. But let me take as the first, the one where I am shaking hands with Hitler. Next to me is Keitel, is standing on the other side, Himmler. Then, to the right there is one of Hitler's adjutants. This is in front of the Zeughaus, in Berlin, on one of the memorial days in spring. All of the generals who were present in spring were ordered to return at that time. In connection with the celebration there wan a parade, and you can see in the picture how this parade was marching by. Now Hitler is greeting the people who are standing there. Goering was not there; consequently, I, as the senior Luftwaffe officer, attended when this company marched by. On this occasion, Hitler greeted all his higher officers, ministers, and so forth. I can't tell you the year. It could have been 1942 or '3.
Then there is a picture where the Party Badge is prominently displayed. Hitler stands to the left, in the foreground, and I stand as second on his right with my Marshal's baton raised. I assume this was on the occasion of one of the speeches to the Reserve Officers of the branches of the Army which took place twice a year. Roughly 20,000 young officers attended and they were addressed by Hitler for roughly two hours on their duties as officers. On this occasion, too, as a matter of principle, the higher officers were present, and in view of my rank I am sitting there in the first row; namely my rank as Field Marshal. I can't tell what the date of this was. It was certainly before 1944. The Luftwaffe always provided a contingent of six to seven thousand officers on these occasions. Goering never came to these addresses. Consequently I or one of our other Generals always took part.
Now, there are two more pictures. One of them seems to have been taken in peacetime. I am wearing the leather band over my shoulder which was done away with after the war started. So far as I recall that was the inauguration of a winter welfare work. On this occasion, too, all the officers of the rank of General of the Berlin garrison had to take part.
The last picture, I am quite to the right, then Keitel, then in the background two of Hitler's adjutants, then Hitler himself, to the left is a large number of Generals. This too could be the inauguration of a winter relief program. This must have been relatively early in the war, but not before 1940. Hitler is in civilian clothes here, which, during the last four years never were. If the whole place had been photographed you would have seen in all of the pictures that all general officers took part in this on orders from Hitler. I do not believe that there is any proof of any probative value in those pictures as to what my relations with various personages were.
Q. Well, that is for the Court to determine, as to the probative value. I merely offer them to show that at certain times you were certainly well up front along with Himmler, Keitel, Raeder and Hitler. You certainly didn't go up there just to have your picture taken?
A. No, I never did that. You notice the other gentlemen in the first row besides those who were mentioned. Besides in 1940 Germany had a total of twelve Field Marshals who were of the highest military rank.
MR. DENNEY: At this time I would like to hand Dr. Bergold the German copies of certain exhibits which he does not have. The first one is NOKW-267; the next one is NOKW-180; and the third is NOKW-260. Then we also have 908-PS to distribute to everyone, including the German copies. With the delivery of these, Dr. Bergold will have all of the documents which we have not been able to furnish him copies of earlier today.
(Documents distributed)
Do you have them all now, Dr. Bergold?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, I do, thank you.
Q. (By Mr. Denney) This next document is R-134 which we offer as prosecution's exhibit 159 for identification. This letter reached the defendant through rather a circuitous course. It is a letter written by Terboven to Goering in May of 1942, and then from Goering was sent by his adjutant, Brauchitsch, to Milch.
Terboven was the Reich Commissioner for Norway, was he not? Do you recall who Terboven was?
A. Yes, I know.
Q. Well, will you tell us?
A. The Reich Commissioner for Norway.
Q. Norway was where you served as a commander of an Air Fleet, wan it not?
A. In the first part of the war, yes.
Q. When was that, in April and May 1941?
A. I can tell you exactly in a moment. Norway wan occupied on the 9th and on the evening of the 12th I received the order to take over the Fifth Air Fleet. In the days that followed it was decided that the Air Fleet was to be stationed in Oslo in Norway. Then on the 16th of April I flew to Norway and returned on the 7th of May.
Q. Well, Terboven writes to Goering: "Esteemed Reichsmarshal: Attached to this, I forward you an explosive device, which is new according to my knowledge, and which, issued by the Secret Service, an can be construed from the attached copy and translation of the English instructions, servos exclusively for the purpose of sabotage of airplanes.
"Several days ago on an island west of Bergen, we have flushed out a Norwegian sabotage unit, which was trained by the Secret Service, and have found during this, extensive stores of sabotage instruments, some of them of a new kind, among which poison and bacteria can probably be found, and which, as far as they are not known, have been forwarded today to the Reich Security Main Office (RSMA) for closer examination.
"Besides other tasks, this sabotage unit was to begin with their sabotage work with the explosive devices, of which a sample is available on Sola and Herdla; this can be construed from found written directives. Since it must be assumed that similar actions are under way on airfields of the remaining European coast, and assuming, that a means of sabotage, actually unknown until now, is in question here, I forward it to you by the fastest means in order to give you the opportunity to issue the appropriate warning order.
"Unfortunately, two especially deserving officers of the Security Police were killed in the fight against the sabotage unit. We buried 2210-a them this morning at about 1000 hours in the heroes' cemetery in Bergen.
"On the same day, and at the same hour, 18 Norwegians were shot on my order; these had been captured some time previously in the attempt to go to England illegally.
"Also on the same day, the entire community, which granted a hiding place to the sabotage unit, was burned down, and the population was deported. All males were sent to a German concentration camp, without their families receiving any notification about it, the women were sent to a female forced labor camp in Norway, and the children, not capable of working, to a children's home. Heil Hitler, Yours Obiediently, signed Terboven." And it's to Reichsmarchal Hermann Goering in Berlin.
That was then sent to the State Secretary of Air and the Inspector General, the defendant, in his office at the Reich Air Ministry, and he has initialed the front part of the buck slip which, Brauchitsch, then a Major, used, and Brauchitsch, concerned only apparently with the matter of the new explosive and not with the people who had been murdered, says "I am enclosing a copy of a letter by Reich Commissioner Terboven to the Reich Marshal about an airplane bomb generated with air pressure (sample is in possession of Dr. Fischer L.C. 7). It is requested that report and the counter measures instituted be sent here for the Reich Marshal. Dr. Fischer has received a copy of the letter. Signed Brauchitsch, Major."
Then in the lower left-hand part the defendant has written:
"To be returned GLC (the Technical Department). I have given orders that this be submitted to me. Communication with the Reich Marshal is reserved to the Chiefs of Departments and myself.
What did you do when you heard that eighteen Norwegians were shot because they were trying to escape to go to England?
A. I had nothing to do with that question and was unable to do anything, but I was to concern myself with the question that was put to me under the sabotage plan -- and to issue instructions for the necessary counter measures to all places where German airplanes were located. We had many airplane casualties that were not explained at that time; for example, the death of Minister Todt, and many others; and here for the first time we received a communication from Norway about this bomb. Shortly thereafter we received a second one from the Mainland. These were about bombs that reacted to air pressure. That is, they could be set for five hundred meters. Then when the airplane had reached five hundred meters altitude, the bomb exploded and everyone in the airplane was killed. From this letter I could not see at all what other individual acts of sabotage had actually been committed in Norway, nor could I see what these individual persons had done.
The entire problem did not fall within my sphere, as I had been absent from Norway for quite a while and had nothing to do with the troops stationed there. Moreover the report on the matter was in the hands of my superior.
Q. You regarded an attempt to escape as being a heroic thing, didn't you?
A. No, but that did not concern me.
Q. Well, you concerned yourself with other things that didn't concern you. Wernigerode Factory, which you said didn't make any thing that you used and which wasn't under you, you gave them advice about how to cut the rations.
A. We were concerned with this factory to the extent that it provided the Luftwaffe with molding material; and I had to know whether the deliveries of this material were meeting our demands or not. Thus, technically, I did have some concern with this matter. I request that this matter may be discussed here at noon; and I'd like to make a remark about Wernigerode if I may.
Q. Just a moment. Let's confine ourselves to this. You may make any remarks about Wernigerode you wish.
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A. Yes.
Q. Now, it says here that the males were all sent to a German concentration camp. You said that you didn't know who was going into concentration camps.
DR. BERGOLD: One moment. Your Honors, for the sake of the record I should like to have it made clear what year the defendant gave as the period of his service in Norway. He stated only the months; and I should like the Court to ascertain what the year was, whether 1941 or 1942.
THE WITNESS: 1940 was the year that I was in Norway; and this letter is dated 1942.
MR. DENNEY: There is no contention made that he was in Norway at the time that this letter was written. He obviously from the records was State Secretary and Inspector General and had his office in the Reich Air Ministry where he couldn't very well be if he were commanding an air fleet in Norway.
Q. I am just trying to inquire into his mental processes with regard to receiving this advice from your superior officer with reference to the fact that eighteen people had been murdered in Norway where he had served.
A. I can only repeat that I had nothing to do with this question and had no opportunity of interceding in this matter nor of undertaking anything.
Q. Well, let's get at it directly.
EXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Do you approve of it?
A. No, I do not.
Q. Do you approve of it when you heard about it?
A. I never approved if a person who undertook something for his land was condemned to death. It was my view that even if the law provided the death penalty for members of one's own country, in the event of members of a foreign country the whole question should be postponed until the conclusion of peace.
Q. Then you believe that the Norwegians had a right to try to escape?
A. Of course.
Q. And that they shouldn't have been shot for doing something that they had a right to do?
A. Yes.
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Q. Did you say anything about it?
A. In my circle of close friends we always spoke in this way.
Q. You just kept it among your close friends; you didn't voice any protest?
A. There was no opportunity for us to do so openly.
Q. And this wrong was committed by a force of which you were the leading member?
A. It was committed by a German who was the German Reich Commissioner for Norway, in other words, the man high up in the German Executive.
Q. About as high up as you were?
A. There's no real direct comparison here. In onesense he was higher than I was.
CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. Did you make any complaint about the male population being sent to a German concentration camp?
A. No, I could only have turned to Goering as my superior and ho had this letter himself. I don't believe there is any army in the world where the subordinate can advise his superior about a matter that this superior already knows, because he has already been informed in writing and can make a complaint himself.
Q. Well, you certainly advised Hitler in March 1943 about what a mess he was making of things over in Russia, didn't you, without any invitation? If I recall, you said you were with him from about 8:30 p.m. until 3:30 in the morning.
A. Yes. That's so; but this was something quite different. That was something that I only did once; but I exceeded my authority, by speaking of matters that affected the life or death of the whole nation. I did not give Hitler instructions but told him what my personal opinion was. Of course, I could not give him instructions of any sort; but I knew that such a thing could only be done once.
Thereafter it was no longer possible for me to have a conference with him about matters that did not fall within my sphere.
2215 a
Q Well, you talked out of turn about a war that Germany had started and which was going badly ten months later than this; but at this time you wouldn't even bother to mention to Goering that eighteen people had been murdered and that they were sending men to a German concentration camp; that their families didn't receive any notification about it; that women were being sent to a female forced labor camp and that children not capable of working were being sent to a workers' home, and you can imply from that that those who could work were made to work someplace.
A I can only reiterate that Goering, my superior, had himself received this letter and had sent me the copy of it with a specific military order as to what I was to do. I couldn't normally tell Goering about something he know about already.
Q You said you could go and discuss things with Goering. You remember that order that you said you had him sign; that you told him afterwards that you had talked to Hitler about him without his consent; and that Goering forgot those things. It certainly would seem you could bring to his attention that perhaps all was not as it should be up in Norway. Did you make any inquiry about what was being done in other places?
A Let me say again Goering himself had this letter. Once or twice a month at least Terceven reported to Goering and Hitler. I couldn't come myself with all the problems that come up, no matter how unpleasant they were.
Q You got the letter and the only thing that you concerned yourself with was the bomb?
A That was the order I had received; and I as a soldier had to carry out that order.
MR. DENNEY: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Before he starts, Mr. Denney, I have some photostats here in German of Exhibit No. 133 which is of no use to me.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, I turn first to the Exhibit No. 908, Exhibit No I believe, 132. This is the Frank letter to Sauckel of 21 November 1943. Did this letter ever reach you?
A. No.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honor, I should like to point out for the record that from the paragraph after No. 12 the Exhibit proves that Frank's letter to Sauckel is a letter of complaint and that this needed a different treatment. I come now to Exhibit No. 133, NOKW 352, This is concerned with the address made by Sauckel on the occasion of the Gauleiter congress on 5 and 6 February 1943. I would like to ask, is Mr. Denney in a position to give us the original again or does the Secretary General have it? If I cannot have it now, I can postpone this until tomorrow.
MR. DENNEY: I do not have it now, Your Honor.
MR. BERGHOLD: I would be grateful if I could have it for tomorrow morning.
THE PRESIDENT: What was the copy I just gave you, which was the photostatic copy?
MR. DENNEY: He is asking for the original.
THE PRESIDENT: Wasn't it the photostatic copy, too?
DR. BERGOLD: I wanted the original to show it to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Why if you have the photostatic copy is not that sufficient?
DR. BERGOLD: No, that is not sufficient because it is a matter here of certain notations and marks he made and we need to know the color of that letter.
THE PRESIDENT: Will the Secretary General at the opening of court tomorrow morning bring with him Exhibit No. 133. That will not be the original, will it?
MR. DENNEY: I think we can relieve the Secretary General of the burden because he already has his photostatic copy and we will undertake 2217a to produce the original at 9:30 in the morning.