Q. Do you know whether these Hungarian Jews worked through any contract with foreign government, as was the case in France?
A. Let me repeat the question whether Hungarian Jews worked on the basis of an agreement with a foreign power -- foreign government. Was that the question?
Q. Yes.
A. Not that I know of.
Q. I have no other questions. One more question please. You said that you know that Russian prisoners of war were working in the armament factories but you didn't know what kind of work they were doing.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever see them in any of the factories?
A. No.
Q. What do you think they were doing?
A. I guess some of them were engaged in construction. So far as skilled workers were concerned they were certainly working at tasks that they were qualified to do. So far as they were unskilled workers they might have been doing almost anything.
Q. If they were working in munition factories they were doing something to manufacture munitions, were they not?
A. If they worked in munitions factories then they must, of course, have had something to do with manufacturing munitions, even if they only worked in the courtyard, or something like that. They still had something to do with the manufacture of munitions.
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q. Witness, much has been said about the importation of women workers as domestic labor. Do you know what these women actually did when they were brought into Germany?
A. Let me repeat the question. I was asked whether I knew what the women who were brought to Germany did. Was that the question?
Q. Yes.
A. I do not know, because I did not visit any plants at all, or almost none.
Q. But when they were used as domestic labor, that phrase has been used often in the various interrogatories. Do you know what is meant by that phrase?
A Yes, they were servant girls or as domestic servants in individual households. So far as I know there were perhaps 50 to 60,000 foreign female workers in individual households where they worked.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q Witness, did you ever know of any prisoners of war, especially Russians, being used to man anti-aircraft guns?
A In the construction or in the use of the anti-aircraft?
Q In the use of anti-aircraft.
A Yes, I have heard of that. I heard that Russian prisoners of war were used to man anti-aircraft guns of that sort.
Q Do you have any idea how many were used for that purpose?
A No, I don't.
Q Did you ever see them being used for that purpose?
A No.
Q On what fronts were they used?
A I believe they were used on the home front, not on the actual battle front, but that is simply my opinion.
Q. Against American planes, British planes and Russian planes?
A. They shot at whatever planes were over Germany.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: That is all.
DR. BERGOLD: May I ask one further question?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, you spoke of female Jews. When were these female Jews employed?
A. I do not know the precise date. It was the summer of In my estimation, it must have been May.
Q. Let me show you NOKW 359. It is the next to the last document of the Prosecution, Stenographic Notes on the Jaegerstab Meeting of 27 June 1944. You said, "I have a few more points. Up until now 12,000 female concentration camp internees, Jewesses, have been demanded. The matter is now in order. The SS has agreed to deliver these Hungarian Jewesses in batches of 500. Thus the smaller firms, too, will be in a better position to employ these concentration camp Jewesses. I request that these people should be ordered in batches of 500."
Is this the point of time from when onward these females were used?
A. Yes. It must have been about this time. The difficulty was the following: The SS demanded that the females should should be delivered in batches of thousands only. Most factories could not use such a large number of females. Consequently, the SS was asked if it could not deliver them in smaller groups. That is the reason.
Q. Witness, is there a difference between the concept of "Ruestungsfabrik" which means armament factory and "Munitionsfabrik" which means a munitions factory? Is there a difference in Germany?
A. Ruestungsfabrik took care of all sorts of armament production, materials, finishing up the deliveries and so on and so forth. Munitionsfabrik is the narrower concept and contents itself with the manufacture of munitions only.
Q. Did the Munitionsfabrik belong inside the concept of "Luftruestung" air armament?
A. So far as the Luftruestung is concerned, they did, yes. The limitation of these concepts was not however uniform. Unfortunately, we had very few uniform concepts. They were often misused.
Q. Were factories that made sheet metal and so on, armament factories? Did they fall under the concept of armaments?
A. They did, yes.
DR. BERGOLD: Thank you.
Your Honors, since I have not been able to get in writing my request to hear Hippke, and that question has not been clarified heretofore, perhaps I can say something about that. I shall call Hippke after the cross-examination of the present witness. I assume that the approval of Hippke as a witness also includes the fact that I may call him here and put him on the stand?
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honors please, I have nothing to do with whom he calls. He may call anyone he desires.
THE PRESIDENT: He is giving you notice that the next witness will be Dr. Hippke.
MR. DENNEY: I assume we are back to the 24 hour question. What he wants me to do is to waive it. I wish he would ask me.
THE PRESIDENT: No.
DR. BERGOLD: I could not tell you about Hippke 24 hours ahead of time because I did not know the rule that he would not be available to us for eight days also applied to the fact he could not be called as a witness. Now we have a clear explanation of that.
THE PRESIDENT: It is all right. Everybody understands, including Mr. Denney, that Hippke will be the next witness.
The Court will adjourn until tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 7 February 1947 at 0930 hours.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 7 February, 1947, 0930-1700, Justice Toms, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: All persons, please find your seats. The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal Number II. Military Tribunal Number II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the Court.
MR. DENNEY: I believe the Colonel has just gone out to get the witness.
(RESUMED)
FRITZ SCHMELTER
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. Witness, you're reminded that you're still under oath.
A. What's that?
Q. You are reminded that you are still under oath.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall being interrogated several times?
A. Yes.
Q. Here, in Nurnberg?
A. Yes.
Q. November and December 1946 and again in January of this year?
A. Yes.
Q. In one of these interrogations, on 30 December 1946, you were asked what the Jaegerstab did to bring workers from Hungary into Germany; do you recall that?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you recall that you made reference to certain trips of the Jaegerstab to Hungary?
A. Yes.
Q. You made this statement: "The Jaegerstab, during its existence, made at least a total of 10 to 12 trips"?
A. Yes.-
Q. Just answer the questions, witness. I have your answer. If the Jaegerstab, during its existence, made at least 10 to 12 trips -- that is the statement you made during your interrogation?
A. Yes. But not to Hungary, if I may remark.
Q. All right. You were asked this question: "Who was in charge of these trips?" And you answer was: "So far as I remember, it was Milch. Milch participated in most trips of the Jaegerstab."
A. In most of them; yes.
Q. in the same interrogation on 30 December, the record indicates that you made this statement: "I know about 100,000 workers from Hungary; however, these were Jews who were allocated to construction. I know nothing about 8,000 workers who evidently were skilled workers, intended for the fighter production program."
A. Yes.
Q. You were then asked: "Is it known to you that these 100,000 Jews were used by Todt in the interests of the Jaegerstab?" and you made the following answer: "Yes, that is known to me."
A. Yes.
Q. You were interrogated on 24 January and asked this question: "Do you know whether the Luftwaffe, in the Luftwaffe industry, used concentration camp prisoners, not in the building program, but for production." and your answer was: "I don't know. I don't think so, except for women. The SS once offered us a lot of women. The difficulty was that, at first, at least 1,000 and later 500 were to be employed. Various firms got women after that, and I think that Heinkel, in Oranienburg, used concentration camp prisoners, not only women, but all the inmates."
A. Yes.
Q. The answer was yes, if Your Honor please. And Heinkel was an airplane factory, was it not, producing the Hienkel plane?
A. Yes.
Q. On November 15, of last year, you were asked if you knew that Himmler used concentration camp inmates for the underground buildings of the fighter staff, and your answer: "Yes; you do mean the finished buildings, do you not? And then you were asked: "The underground ones, the completion of the existing caverns or tunnels, or the like, where concentration camp inmates were employed?"
and your answer, "Yes."
A. Yes.
Q. And you were also asked: "Were these construcions built in the interest of the Luftwaffe?" Your answer: "These new constructions; yes."
A. Yes.
Q. The next question: "Exclusively in the interest of the Luftwaffe. And did the orders for the new constructions come from the fighter staff?" Answer: "Whether other constructions were also built there; probably yes." Question: "I am only interested in the Luftwaffe?" Answer: "Also for the Luftwaffe. I do not know whether for others. I would not like to pin myself down."
A. Yes.
Q. Later you were asked: "Do you know that prisoners of war were at all employed in the air rearmament?" and you stated "Yes; I should like to say, the rearmament plans. The air rearmament also employed prisoners of war in its plans."
A. Yes.
Q. In the same interrogation of 15th of November, you made this statement: "Field Marshal Milch, who signed himself responsible for air armament, recruited his labor independently to a certain extent."
A. I'm afraid I didn't quite understand that.
Q. In the same interrogation of 15 November 1946, you made this statement: "Field Marshal Milch, who signed himself responsible for air armament, recruited his labor independently to a certain extent."
A. I no longer recall making that statement. Perhaps - could I see the context? I don't know what the word "independently" is supposed to mean there.
Q. Just answer the questions, witness. In reply to a question: "What was Field Marshal Milch's position in the Jaegerstab?" you stated, "There were two chairmen in the Jaegerstab, Speer and Milch. In the first session, or rather in most of the sessions, Milch participated personally; Speer did not. Speer was present only in exceptional cases. In his place, Sauer, who was at the same time manager, initiated the contact with the rest of the armament industry. Milch was Chief of the Jaegerstab, besides Speer."
A. Yes.
Q In the same interrogation of 15 November you made the following statement: "assignment of labor was involved in every question including every question of production."
A Yes.
Q On the 26th of November you made the following statement when you were interrogated: "mobilization of manpower as a matter which is closely connected with production was very much discussed. Everybody had a word to say, had a request for something and they suggested or said I could do better, etc."
A Yes.
Q Do you recall being present at the 53rd and 54th meetings of the Central Planning Board? The 54th meeting was held on March 1, 1944.
A I was present at two or three meetings. I do not, however, know whether I was present on the one on the first of March.
Q The meeting at which labor was discussed.
A Yes, I assume that I was there, yes, but I cannot say for certain.
Q These two meetings were presided over by Field Marshal Milch.
AAs much as I remember, yes, that's true.
Q Do you recall Sauckel being at these meetings?
A I remember one meeting exactly at which Sauckel was present, one exactly - but not more than one.
MR. DENNEY: Dr. Bergold, do you have the German copy of NOKW198 which is the chart bearing the labor statistics for the first quarter of 1944? (to page) will you get it and give it to the witness, please? (page secures copy of document) Thank you. If your Honor please, I think this -- I don't seem to have the document book here but I think it appears in Document Book 2-A and it's the insert -it's the chart on labor to which we later added. I don't think your Honors will need it if you don't have it. (to witness) Have you ever seen this chart?
A No.
Q You never saw it?
A These are not work statistics.
Q Give it back. The witness hasn't seen the chart. I can't examine him. Witness were you a member of the Nazi party?
A Yes, I was; since 1932.
Q 1932. Did you hold an office in the SS?
A Not in the party, in the SS I had a rank because of my official position, Obersturmbannfuehrer, but exercised no function and no active orders.
Q When were you appointed Obersturmbannfuehrer in the SS?
A 1941.
Q 1941. If your Honor please, I have no further questions.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, on the trip to Hungary were you present when the committee went to Hungary?
A No, I travelled only as far as Prague and returned.
Q Do you know the purpose of this trip to Hungary?
A Not precisely. I know that there was a question of production to take place in Hungary but precise information I do not have.
Q Do you know that there was a definite contract with the Hungarian Government?
A I heard about that subsequently.
Q Did you then hear that this trip had the purpose of bringing Hungarian Jews to Germany?
A No.
Q Thank you. The prosecutor spoke to you of 100,000 Jews. Did you know that these were to be used by Mr. Dorsch?
A Yes.
Q And mainly, as far as the tasks that he had, mainly to bombproof factories?
A Yes.
Q Do you know whether the Fighter Staff ordered these 100,000 Jews or whether somebody else did?
A The employment of these 100,000 Jews in this construction organization took place on Hitler's orders. I, myself, was not present at this discussion. Dorsch, however, was present and told me that Hitler had ordered -- had said Himmler has 100,000 Hungarian Jews for bomb-proof factories and is to make them available.
Q Do you know whether and in what number and when these Jews arrived to carry out this construction work?
A I do not know precisely the dates. It was in the summer of 1944. Nor do I know whether all of them arrived. Once I concerned myself with the question regarding the guarding of these people. At that time the SS did not have enough guard personnel and Hitler ordered Keitel to provide 10,000 soldiers which were to be withdrawn from the Eastern Front and to make them available to the SS so that they, the SS, would have the necessary guard personnel. Thereafter, I heard nothing further about the matter and assumed that the Jews for the most part were employed. I deduced this from the fact that I otherwise should have heard of it again probably.
Q I discussed just yesterday with you whether these buildings were ordered by the Fighter Staff. I do not need to return to that question. Were these constructions used exclusively by the Fighter Staff or for other advantages, such as armored cars?
A Originally they were exclusively planned for fighter construction but I do recall that as time went on there were also discussions of using them for other manufacture, for instance, tanks, and this construction should take place in these buildings. Since, however, I had nothing to do with this professionally, I can only report on this from hearsay. In other words, I know nothing precisely.
Q The prosecutor quoted to you a statement of yours from an interrogation; I shall ask you now did you make the statement in the interrogation that Milch was responsible for air armament to sort out workers individually?
A I don't know how I should understand word 'sort out'; if you mean that he went to the foreign countries and searched for them personally, then of course as I stated in the interrogation, that is wrong. I did state in that interrogation that during my activity in the Fighter Staff on March 1944 no individual actions in foreign countries were carried out by Milch or the Fighter Staff. The manpower was provided by Sauckel exclusively, or to the extent that they were prisoners by the SS, or prisoners of war were provided by the Wehrmacht.
Q And then they were transferred, as you said yesterday, to other sectors?
A Yes.
Q You also said then in this interrogation that in most of the meetings Milch was present.
AAt the beginning, I said.
DR. BERGOLD: I have no further questions.
MR. DENNEY: I have no questions.
BY THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal may remove this witness.
DR. BERGOLD: Permit me to call immediately the witness ERIC HIPPKE, Dr. Hippke.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will bring into the Court room Eric Hippke.
(Witness Erick Hippke brought into Court room)
Will you raise your right hand please, and repeat after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
The witness may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, will you please tell the Tribunal your Christian and surname?
A My name is Hippke; my first name Eric.
Q When were you born?
A On the 17th of March 1888.
Q What was your last position in the German State?
A I was Medical Inspector of the Luftwaffe until 31 December 1943.
Q Witness, do you know the defendant, Milch?
A Yes, I know the defendant Milch.
Q Can you identify him here in the court room? Point him out?
A He is over there.
DR. BERGOLD: I ask that the minutes show that the witness has identified the defendant.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will indicate that the witness has identified the defendant.
Q Witness, how long have you known Milch?
A Since my entrance into the Luftwaffe on 1 April 1935.
Q In what capacity did you have business or dealings with Milch there?
A He was the States Secretary for Aviation, and as that the chief in the aviation ministry to which I belonged.
Q When did you become Inspector General of the Medical Inspection?
A I was not Inspector General. I was simply inspector. This designation of office was introduced later, approximately '36 or 1937. From that time on I was the Inspector of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe until I left.
Q Were you immediately subordinated to Milch in this capacity?
A I was subordinated directly to him at the beginning, later I was subordinated to him via the Chiefs of the Luftwehr.
Q. In other words, you were separated in a certain degree from Milch.
A. Yes. My immediate superior in this later period was, as a basic principle, Chief of the Anti-aircraft.
Q. When did that occur, approximately?
A. 1940 or 1941. I cannot precisely recall.
Q. Who at that time was Chief of the Air Defense?
A. At first General Ruedel; later General Foerster, and he was chief until I resigned from office.
Q. Do you know from approximately what date Foerster was Chief of Air Defence(of the Luftwehr?)
A. I believe since the year 1942, but I do not know, precisely.
Q. Witness, what office or agency of the army was under your command?
A. You mean of the Luftwaffe?
Q. Right?
A. If I may limit my answer here to the experimental activities of the Luftwaffe because that is apparently the only matter that we are concerned with here.
Q. First of all I want to lay down the general picture.
A. I went to the Luftwaffe as inspector to take care of medical activities in the Luftwaffe, to see that they were carried out in an orderly fashion according to orders given by me; that was my task, particularly on the front and to keep things orderly and supervise these matters.
Q. Was the medical personnel subordinated to you in personnel matters?
A. Only technically.
Q. Who was in charge of medical inspectors in personnel matters?
A. The respective military branches; the Luftwaffe, the medical personnel in a gau were subordinated to the Luftgau. I myself was in charge directly of only one single organization, that was the medical academy of the Luftwaffe, which was purely a training school.
761a which trained medical cadets of the Luftwaffe.
Q. Is it correct to say that the chief of the Luftwaffe had the medical personnel under him?
A. I shall repeat my answer. He had charge of them insofar as all changes all orders--
Q. You have to speak slower witness. As the interpreters can not follow otherwise.
A. The director of personnel-the direction of personnel was taken care of by a section of the personnel office, not by me. There was a special department for air decorations, promotions and transfers of all personnel, for all medical officers. I simply took care of these things in an auxiliary capacity. I was head officially, occasionally was called upon to give an opinion so that personnel in my office were exempted from this general order. To this personnel office I was occasionally called to assist and there was in audition a medical officer from the personnel office who was subordinated to the personnel office, but not subordinated to me.
Q. Do you know whether this personnel office was subordinated to Milch in his capacity as Inspector?
A. No, so far as I am informed of the organization, that was not subordinated to him. In the same way the general staff was not subordinated to him but was excluded from his sphere of confidence.
Q. I come now to the research institutes. What reasearch institutes were subordinated to you?
A. Immediately subordinated to me were the Luftwaffe Medical Institute of the Reich Air Ministry; that was its official name. This was a central institute for Aviation Medical Research; without actually having the leadership, I was the head of that. It was the center of the Aviation Research. 762 Professor Strughold was the leader of it and it was located in Berlin.
May I conclude?
Then, scattered throughout Germany there were a number of other smaller research places of which I would like to name the following: In Hamburg an institute under Schwarz; and in Munich there was an institute under Professor Weltz and an institute in Gueterborg under Doctor v. Dehringshofen and later under professor Knote; and at Freiburg under Professor Buechner. The last named was concerned with avaiation pathology exclusively. In other words it was not quite like the other institutes. These were subordinated to their individual Luftgau but they were indirectly subordinate also to me, so that the scientific leadership of the institutes, which belonged to the Luftwaffe, was united in my hands, and I also was responsible for them. Aside from these institutes which I have named, there were a number of other institutes that did not belong within my immediate sphere of command; amongst these was one research institute that fell within the realm of those that belonged especially to the Luftwaffe; namely, a research institute in the testing groung Rechlin which belonged to the Luftwaffe. The leader of the medical department there was one Dr. Benzinger, a in other words a ministerial official. I was subordinated to the leader of his institute and he in turn was subordinate to the office of technical Research of the Luftwaffe. He was not subordinate to me. In my whole period of activity I was never actually in Rechlin.
Another institute of research was the Luftwaffe Experimental station in the German Technical Institute for Avaition in Berlin Adlerhof, under the leadership of Dr. Ruff, who was also independent apart from his subordination to the institute for aviation.
I can not testify about these since they were outside my sphere of activities. It was Dr. Ruff, the leader of this Luftwaffe Research Station, who was in charge, at the head of it, and I was responsible to him.
In the course of my period of office I visited the institute a few times on the request of Dr. Ruff, but always I previously went to the leader of the DVL and asked for permission to visit the institute, which was within his sphere of command, as I did not even have the right to inspect the institute.
763a
Q. Who was the leader of the DVL at the time?
A. Mr. Boeck at that time, but I would not like to say that for sure.
Q. I come now to the experimental station at Rechlin, the testing ground. Did it extend under the so-called leadership of research or - who was it subordinate to this institute?
A. Dr. Benzinger told me again and again that he was subordinate to General Udet, that General Udet had created a ministry in that particular office for him so that he could carry out management there.
Q. In what way were the institutes under the Luftwaffe subordinate to you, so that they were directly subordinate to you?
A. They were subordinate to me insofar as the Luftwaffe Gau doctor was subordinate to me. In addition, there were the air field forces which were interpolated but in this experimental work they did not belong to me because they did not appear so often in this work. I was in the Air Ministry, but I had experts on Medical questions in a separate department.
The leader of this department was Prof. Anthony at that time. He had an assistant later; and this assistant was Dr. Becker-Fryseng, and he was particularly recommended to me as an expert and a desirable person by the Aviation Medical Institute I. E. Prof. Struckhold.
A. He was an assistant and thereafter subordinate to Professor Anthony. Professor Anthony in turn was subordinate to his department and he in turn was subordinate to me. This was during the time, I believe, of General Martius but he very often had the opportunity to report directly to me on the research questions.
Q. What was your official connection with General Oberstandartzt Handloser of the Medical Department of the Wehrmacht?
A. When the Medical Department of the Wehrmacht was created, it was indevered to combine all questions that concerned any of the three branches of the Army and he was my superior as Medical General, Handloser who previously had been on an equal basis with me as medical inspector for the Army when he also took on this new task now became my superior.
Q. Well, could he give you orders? What do you mean by the word superior?
A. Yes, he could he give me orders and establish policies.
Q. When was this roughly?
A. That was in 1942, I believe. At the latest in 1945. The reorganization already existed when I came in.
Q. Then there were other experts; there were so-called advisory expert physicians, and what was their relationship to the whole?
A. There wore a number of advisory physicians, that I, following the example of the Army had already appointed for the Luftwaffe; they were subordinate to me immediately when I was there, in other words, they were not responsible to other departments or intermediate offices 765a In this field of airforce medicine I had no special consultant but used the chiefs of the Luftwaffe Medical Research Institute Berlin professor Strughold also for these purposes of professional orientation.