A The danger in this experiment I always considered to be small because, despite such experiments, we never had one case of death. The only case of death which happened in the Luftwaffe Medical Service was on a completely different field. It was one of our research men who had gone with a Himolaya expedition. In the altitude there he was killed by the cold and lack of air, but that was an altitude expedition in the mountains and not in the field of altitude research work within the low pressure chamber.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: There is no need to prolong this. You merely wanted to say that in the United States scientific experiments were conducted in this field, not in any way jeopardizing human life; is that correct?
A Whether and to what extent such experiments were made in the United States I do not know. All I know is that human experiments were made in the United States which might have been dangerous and for which certain prisoners were used. That is what I meant when I said that these experiments were justified, and Professor Weltz mentioned that on this occasion.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Where did you see reference to these American experiments?
A I would ask to see Professor Weltz. He mentioned certain books and even the dates when they appeared.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Then, of your own personal knowledge, you know nothing about American experiments?
A No, not from my own personal knowledge.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Court, I shall make this quite clear as to what sort of experiments were made on criminals who had volunteered, what experiments of that sort were made in the United States. For that purpose I shall call Dr. Alexander, the American expert.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Very well.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q After this talk in the summer of 1941, what happened?
A I should add something here. Although I was reluctant, I made up my mind to go ahead with these experiments, with the limitation that have been mentioned, from the point of view that we could save lives which had been sentenced to death. At least it was very probable that we could, because 779A the experiments were not very dangerous anyway.
In any case, the arguments which Kottenhof put up were more important to me that the arguments which Weltz produced, because, in the last analysis, the responsibility for that decision not to go forward with such experiments -- I had to answer for that decision with my conscience, and literature alone would not have been enough for me.
At the time I also said to Professor Weltz that if experiments were made he should supervise them because he as a scientist and as a man guaranteed, as far as I was concerned, that everything would be done to safeguard everything as much as possible. He himself was not strongly inclined toward these experiments, just as I was not.
Q. Witness, did you say before that Professor Buechner collaborated in this?
A. I had the idea to take him into the work because I knew that he was very strict morally and as regards humanity. Buechner was a strict Catholic, which again seemed to play a part in this, insofar as precautions were concerned. Weltz was also a strict Catholic, just as I myself am a strict and very active Protestant. This I hoped would mean added precautions in the experiments.
Q. Witness, did you make any preparations on the question of whether these experiments, apart from danger to life, would entail other dangers to the experimental subjects, such as very intense pain or diseases which would go on after the experiments had been finished?
A. After we separated from that meeting and when I finished the conversation, I raised this question in regard to certain experiments, and I said at the time, "Please, children, go carefully." Afterwards I thought quite a lot about this. I said to myself that the question of pains during the experiments should not play a very important part because when you alter pressure you lose consciousness in a very few seconds -- in any case within twenty seconds at the latest. Let's strike out the "at latest" because I can not commit myself to that precise figure. Therefore, you can not say that it hurts.
When you wake up again, if there is an abnormal condition at all afterwards, there is a state of drunkenness which follows, during which you can not speak of pains, just as you can not when you are drunk from alcohol.
The person concerned will probably be very confused after the experiments. After the experiments he suffers from loss of memory for the period when he is in the state of drunkenness. Memory will not worry him because of the drunkenness. As far as pain and memory of pain were concerned, I saw nothing to worry about.
I also thought of the question of whether it would not be possible to take in different groups of persons, but I said to myself that for soldiers, the general principle existed, which at that time was emphasized with great severity, that all soldiers should be used only for their actual military purposes and that they should not be used for any other tasks.
As far as other civilians were concerned, such as volunteers, whether they be men or women, I saw the necessity of starting a bigger action, but also from the point of view of secrecy for the results obtained in the experiments and also from the point of view of the special interest that such experiments would raise, I decided that this was undesirable.
Therefore, I could not make up my mind and preferred the other way, where all these guarantees of safeguards were taken, and I decided to answer for that method.
Q Witness, how did you know that in such experiments there would not be any pains?
A That can be seen from the way the experimental subjects behave, when they wake up from unconsciousness, for their behavior is mainly confused and does not give the impression that they are suffering pains. When they make any noises and scream, I may remind you that when you are drunk you might do similar things without the person concerned feeling any pains, but also, the loss of memory does not always apply, but that the experimental subjects who underwent the experiments, took the view that the question of pain is not an important one in this context.
Q You said this morning that you yourself made experiments on yourself. Did you make any observations in these questions there?
A The lesson of the experiment which I had made on myself was a different one, inasmuch as a slowly -- I had a slowly increasing reduction of oxygen on myself -- what is known as a climbing experiment. You go through a phase of lack of oxygen getting stronger and stronger, what you feel, apart from feeling very tired depends entirely upon the individual constitutions, what you feel. You may feel weak. In my case, in these experiments, I hear noises in my ears, which I also feel when I have drunk alcohol, and my muscles tremble, particularly when I write, which is not connected with feeling pain, this shaking of my muscles, he decided that the shaking of muscles means that altitude sickness has set in, but these are minor symptoms. Secondly, they have nothing to do with the experiments of lowering pressure rapidly, as there consciousness is lost suddenly. In my own case, when I took more oxygen, what we call the descent, I never felt any pains; on the contrary when oxygen is being taken in again, immediately from the bottle, my normal faculties were immediately restored to me, so that the shaking of muscles, and such symptoms disappeared immediately, and also the power to see, which before was reduced a little, was restored to me at once.
Q Witness, when you climbed into certain altitudes slowly, you probably put yourself to more pain, although I don't know much about these things, but if you pass out suddenly, is that not always so?
A If in such experiments a slow climbing is done, this has its effect on the body much more intensively than when, as far as symptoms of illness are concerned, or not really diseased complaints, than when through a sudden rapid reduction of pressure, you immediately lose consciousness.
Q Thank you. Witness, will you describe to us now what you know of the experiments after the conversation in Munich?
A In the course of 1941, in the affair of the Dachau experiments, I heard nothing, only in 1942. In 1942 the old precedent has approached me again. In the beginning of 1942, I talked with Dr. Ruff on the conditions under which I would give my permission for such experiments. I talked to him on one occasion, and I know that Dr. Ruff intended to take part in these experiments, whereas, I, in my turn, did not only not have any objection, but what I considered to be the reasonable and understandable, because Dr. Ruff was a scientist, who had the greatest personal experience in rapid reduction of pressure experiments in Germany, and had experimented on his own person in that respect. I can also recall that I myself carried out a rapid reduction of pressure experiment. I looked at such an experiment under his direction, within the frame of the DVL.
Q. Witness,---
A. May I just finish my sentence? This experiment had no incidence whether he made the experiment on his own body or Dr. Romberg's, his collaborator, who---I don't know whether he did the experiment himself or Dr. Romberg, but I do know that Dr. Ruff was present himself.
Q. Witness, was the experimental person a so-called alien person; that is to say, a criminal?
A. Oh, no. It was either Dr. Ruff or Dr. Romberg, or, perhaps another member of his staff. He had several doctors with him, but in any case, purely from the circle of doctors who carried out experiments on themselves.
Q. Witness, after your conversation in 1942, what happened then?
A. In my field of vision, the whole business came again into my field of vision, roughly, on 15 April. I don't know when the experiments were began. I was not informed of this, nor was this necessary, as, in that respect, DVL was quite independent, and did not need to report to me when they began experiments. In the middle of April, however, I was sent a letter by Obergruppenfuehrer Wolf, who was a member of the staff of the SS, in which he asked that the Rascher commend in Dachau should be granted.
Q. May I interrupt you here? Witness, before we go on here, I shall ask you two questions. Who gave Rascher the orders to do these experiments?
A. Rascher wanted to make these experiments within the framework of the SS and he acted always so that the SS should have the leadership and the direction of those experiments, that we ourselves impose conditions to safeguard and guarantee the experiments, and for that purpose, should supply the experts, for Rascher was always only an assistant doctor to our own experts, and he was ---- I decided that he should be nothing more than an assistant.
Q. Witness, that is not a very exact answer to my question.
THE PRESIDENT: Can we have an answer to your question, Dr. Bergold? The answer is just one word, isn't it? Who gave Rascher permission to perform these experiments? That included Himmler, didn't it?
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. "Witness, Rascher was a reserve officer of the Luftwaffe, wasn't he? What office in the Luftwaffe did release him to join the SS?
A. The first assignment of Rascher, which was clear to me at the time, was given by Luftgau Kammando 7, and we had to decide the extention of his powers for Rascher belonged to the framework of the Luftgau Kommando 7, and near Dachau, he had his office near Dachau, and Dachau is also part of the Luftgau Kommando 7. Now Rascher had to be released from Dachau, somehow, and from there, Himmler reserved the right to himself to decide these things, because he made these people available, and he wished to reserve the whole direction of this business. That was explained to me by Rascher every time.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honor, this is the witness' character; he's apt to be a bit exuberant.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, for oratorical or expository, or prolifics, or any number of other words, but I wonder if we can't confine him a little bit to some approximation of an answer to the question.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes. Perhaps I may be allowed to give some thought on this. As I understand him to say, Rascher was freed to go to the SS, was made by Luftgau Kommande 7. Permission to do the work and the experiments was given by Himmler.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honor please, I object to Dr. Bergold interpreting the witness' testimony. I submit, I'm as much, perhaps, in doubt as to who (785-a) ordered the experiments from the witness' standpoint as is the Court, and I suggested that the witness be allowed to answer the question and I appreciate Dr. Bergold's trying to offer, but decline it.
DR. BERGOLD: I asked the Court whether I would be allowed to give my view.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, who supplied the high altitude chambers for these experiments?
A The high altitude chambers were supplied by the DVL, they were responsible for the transport of them there. I had no occasion to give my agreement to this because if these experiments were to be held before, a low pressure chamber was very necessary. I had given my agreement on principle and I take full responsibility for that measure.
Q Witness, did you, before the 15th or 16th of April, 1942 report to Milch on these experiments?
A I know that once I had decided to give my consent to these parallel experiments, once, in the Ministry, I reported to a senior officer that these experiments would take place. This was as early as 1941.
Q Which particular senior officer do you mean?
A Whether I reported this to Milch as I thought initially or whether I reported to General Ruedel, Chief of Air Defense I cannot say very precisely now. This was within the usual routine of regular reports, which were made to the chief of the air defense and the Staatssekretaer, and within this, month to month.
Q At the beginning you said that since 1940, the Chief of Air Defense was the most important senior officer; is that right?
A I don't recall the year, but it is quite proble that in 1941, the Chief of Air Defense was present. These reports obliged me to go to the Chief of the Air Defense first. Whether this report was handed on and we went together to the Staats sekretaer, or whether he would let me go alone, or whether he would pass on the report, that changed from case to case.
There were, at the moment, times when he represented the Staatssekretaer, himself.
Q Now, let us return to the letter from Wolffs. What did you cause to be done after that?
-786(a)
A. I passed the letter on to Luftgau 7, to work on it and reach a decision. For, in that area, the experiments were made and they had to make the decision. Whether it was necessary to order Rascher to do this once more or whether the conclusion of the experiments made it unnecessary for Rascher to remain there.
Q. Did you at that time have any knowledge of the details of the experiments?
A. No. All I knew was that the experiments there had been carried out. Nor did I feel any worries at that time, because we had been at them for quite some time, and now they were a bit more extensive, concerning the altitude but I expressly had ordered that the altitude effect should be increased only very slowly and that as few experiments as possible should be made. So I felt no misgivings about this order.
Q. Witness, when did you hear more about these experiments?
A. I heard about the experiments in the middle of May 1942, when Dr. Ruff had a conversation with him in my official department, which was not in the Ministry itself, but in the Tempelhof Airfield. On that occasion, I had another application from Obergruppenfuehrer Wolf, which this time, had not reached directly but came over Milch's offices, and he asked Milch asked for Rascher's command to be extended. Whether I had ordered Ruff to be there, or whether he came on his own initiative, I cannot say. But two matters were discussed on that occasion between us two. Ruff tells me that he had given orders for the low pressure chamber to be removed from Dachau and he had given orders for his collaborator Romberg to conclude the experiments, because supplementary experiments were necessary for the Luftwaffe, and had now been concluded, and also, because Romberg had told him that Dr. Rascher had begun to experiment alone without him, Romberg, with the low pressure chamber. Rascher, it would appear, had a case of death on that occasion.
I thereupon -- I couldn't call it consent, here. I said that it was quite right for him to remove the chamber at once, so that no further independent work could be done. Nothing could happen, and also our experiments had to come to an end anyway. On that occasion, I showed him Wolf's letter, who had asked for the Rascher order to be extended, and said that I was -787(a) opposed to the extension, and I would suggest to the Staatssekretaer not to allow Rascher and his chamber to remain there, because, as far as the Luftwaffe was concerned, no more -
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will recess until 1:30.
THE MARSHAL: All persons in the Court, please rise. The Tribunal is recessed until 1330.
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 - 7 Feb 1947) ERIC HIPPKE - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (continued) BY DR. BERGOLD: (Attorney for defendant Erhard Milch)
Q. Mr. Witness; you spoke this morning of it that when in May 42 Ruff was with you the telegram of Wolf requesting the extension of this command, which had come to you via Milch was subject of that discussion, I believe you said that Ruff spoke to you regarding the fact that Rascher had a case of death in his experimentation on the occasion of his own and secret experiments. Did you report this to Wolf as a certain case?
A. No, I spoke of a case of suspicion, and consequently I told Ruff to come to me immediately in order that I might find out what actually had happened.
Q. In this discussion with Ruff what else happened, or was that the end of it?
A. The essential thing that happened was about two points; on the one had that the chambers should be withdrawn; the second that the tests were sufficient and therefore the experiments were to be concluded. These were the two points as far as I was concerned because I was responsible.
Q. Did Ruff tell you about the results of the experiments the results of his experiments?
A. No. So far as I remember we did not speak about it at this time. He only said that the experiments were sufficient.
Q. Witness, what did you then do as a consequence of this telegram of Wolf's to Milch?
A. I went to State Secretary in order to discuss this telegram, with the thought in mind that regarding further use of the chamber and stating that I did not think Rascher should be further used because our needs for experimentation were now over, and these no longer were needed for the Luftwaffe.
Q. Witness, did you speak with Milch personally at that time or did you approach him in other ways?
A. I went to speak to him personally. There was another point to be talked over besides the conclusion of the high altitude tests; namely, and this was given to me by my office for these purposes, the preliminary low pressure experiments, the distress at sea experiments - the sea distress experiment, as they were called. I wanted to speak to him about these matters; these two matters, the conclusion of high altitude experiments and the planning for sea distress experiments; these were the two points I had in mind. I did not succeed in having this talk with Milch. The Staats Secretaer was so busy that it was impossible, and when I could not report to him personally, as frequently happened, I sent him a memorandum, a written report with the questions listed. In the case of these problems I had not brought up the question of the case of death because in the first place, in my opinion it was not clear whether or not it actually had taken place; and secondly, I also believed that such emornadums which were frequently inserted, the file should not be put down on such a memorandum.
Q. Witness, what about the freezing experiments?
A. The freezing experiment problem had already been a considerable problem to us, even before then; because we had the experience with fliers who at low temperatures fell into the water, despite the fact that they had their warm flyers' clothing, nevertheless in this cold water -- and it really was very cold - that they died. And we had the experience that if they succeeded in staying alive they nevertheless died subsequently despite all the efforts that were then usual and which we made, medicine, warm blankets, etc., they died nevertheless. This was not mainly our problem. And I recall that in the case of ships that sank, The Navy had made the experience that people brought to land who were still alive, subsequently, despite all medical care died.
In other words, we stood - 790(a) here confronted with a riddle -- why did they not recover later; and why did their condition progressively grow worse until they died?
All of these people were unconscious; they were also stiff after they had been in cold water for a considerable length of time, but they were still alive, and without our being able to understand this, they died subsequently.
That was for us a large and new problem. Now, in order to find out why death came and find out what measures of a medical nature we should take in order to save these people - that was our problem. This problem had been worked on exhaustively by physiologists, by clinicians and others and experiments had been made here and they were then under way and these animal experiments which were usually carried out on small animals by Weltz carrying on these experiments. Most of them on guinea pigs and some experiments were made on larger animals but still no experiments on human beings and it was clear to me that in such an important question as this, experiments on human bodies had to be carried out and were indispensable because the human body simply in the relationship to surface end volume has different proportions from those in animal bodies. I wanted, if possible, to dispense with the experiments. I wanted to carry out experiments on large animals and the only animals I could use were monkeys. During that time I discussed this question regarding the use of monkeys with Prof. Struckholt from the Research Institute in Berlin. He, however, assured me that at this time it was impossible to get hold of monkeys in Germany. He, himself, had made efforts to get monkeys for other purposes, primarily for experiments with centrifugal force and I also recollect that he had made experiments with monkeys for he had photographs of them - X-rays how the blood was re-distributed in case of the centrifugal force experiments. This could be seen in the X-rays that were taken daring the course of the experiments.
Q. Pause after each sentence otherwise the technical matters - - the interpreters will be behind.