Q You mean the meetings?
A Yes; that applies to meetings. In other words, I participated in a total of 30 conferences.
Q But there was one more on the 1st of August 1944, wasn't there?
A That was after my retirement. It was a meeting when Speer was in the chair in which the Fighter Staff was now finally discontinuing. its work since the tasks of fighter staffs were now being transferred to the spheres of ordinary armament, under Speer, which organization it was joined with. It was a purely formal meeting of handing over, and I deliberately took part, so as not to create the impression that I was leaving reluctantly or that I was being angry about anything, since, of course, the exact opposite was the case.
Q Witness, the prosecution submitted a document, NOKW-359, Exhibit No. 75, notes, or rather, shorthand notes made of a Jaegerstab meeting, 27 June 1944. Did you attend this meeting on the 27th of June 1944, witness? I should like to ask the Secretary General to obtain photostat copy of this document, NOKW-359, and have it brought to the courtroom.
A I was not present on the 27th of June.
THE PRESIDENT: That's Exhibit 75?
DR. BERGOLD: 75. It's in Document Book 4, page 161 of the English copy.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q So that, witness, according to your notes, you were (imprisoned)?
A No; I wasn't. I took very accurate notes about that.
Q All right, I shall come to this in detail when we get to the point. But, in the meantime, will you answer the question please, what did the Jaegerstab have to do with the construction work of the air armament?
A The Jaegerstab merely had to lay down the part of the country where this construction was to take place, and what sizes of manufac ture were demanded, because that depended upon the article which was to be manufactured.
If I was making wings for aircraft, then these wings had certain sizes, and certain sizes also applicable to the moving belt. Consequently it was up to 1986-A the Jaegerstab to lay down the measures of these factories' halls.
Otherwise, the Jaegerstab had nothing to do with such building work.
Q But, there is frequent mention of building work in Jaegerstab meetings, subterranean building work and work on the ground. What is this due to?
A. We had to know whether building was going on at all and we had to know the dates when we could move into these buildings with our armament work, and, apart from that, there were clear cut orders to the effect from Goering, regarding those caves, tunnels, and such-like, and also from Hitler, regarding surface concrete construction work.
Q Witness, there have been statements contained in affidavits to the effect that such building work was being carried out and that these orders had been given by Hitler and Goering because the Jaegerstab had demanded them.
A May I give you the following explanation? The requests originated from the end of 1943. I had discussed the possibilities of such building work in great detail with Speer, since Speer was a building minister at the same time, and he had an excellent picture of these problems. He convinced me very rapidly that this building work couldn't be carried out during war tire at all, since there was a shortage of materials and of labor. And, likewise, there wasn't time enough to carry out such building work. We were -- both of us -- aware of the fact that it would be better to use building workers and cement for the protection of the civilian population, whose martyrdom had in the meantime reached the stage of the insufferable. Consequently, in the most severe manner possible, I opposed such building, because I considered them a useless effort, which wouldn't get us anywhere. Consequently I was never in the least interested in such building work during that period, and particularly because of that question I had clashed with Goering and Hitler at that time.
Q That was something I was just going to ask you. What did you do in order to put your deviating opinion on record, and to stop orders which you considered nonsensical?
A I said the same things which I've just said here, namely -but at that time, they didn't get anywhere.
Q Witness, I shall come back to this meeting of the 24th of June, once again. The 24th -- oh, no! I mean the 27th of June, 1944, and I shall put to you the point that on page 26 of this document which I have read, your name appears on one occasion, and it states: "Milch: would you describe the whole situation briefly to the General Staff." You're saying that to a certain Mr. Krause. "--so that you are actually listed in the record?"
A That is most certainly an error. During that stage I wasn't there at all. I wasn't in the place where the Jaegerstab met.
Q Can you describe where you were in those days?
A Yes; in the morning I was in my ministry, the Jaegerstab was having its meetings at Tempelhof. There I was carrying out the handing over of a completely different part of my work, and at midday I left to some place outside Berlin.
DR. BERGOLD: I should like to put this part of the minutes before this High Tribunal, and with reference to this passage where Milch is speaking, I should like to draw your attention to it.
Q. Witness, was it your habit that when you were present during such meetings, you would only speak once? Were you otherwise sitting there silently?
A. I am awfully sorry but I did not do that. Otherwise I would not be sitting in this place now. Might I add also with reference to this subject, that seven days previous I completely disappeared from the whole matter. This conference before Hitler with Goering on the 20th of June resulted in the order that I would leave my post as a practical matter on the 20th of June, both as State Secretary as well as GL. After that moment I did not practical work at all and a transition stage for the Jaegerstab was not essential since for some time the business there had been handled by Saur. After this date I only had a conference, a GL conference, with my own people when I said goodbye to them. That was just after the 20th. I have got it here. It was on the 30th of June. And of course Verwald, who ought to have represented me but was not there because he was sick, and his deputy, had the work handed over to them by me insofar as this work was a question for the GL, and I had completed that on June 30. On that day I merely made a short farewell speech in order to take leave of my old collaborators.
Q. Witness, I want to ask you once again with solemn reference to your oath, can you say with the greatest possible certainty that on that 27th of June 1944 you were not present?
A. That I can say with absolute certainty because I know exactly what I was doing during that morning when I was in Berlin.
THE PRESIDENT: In the English document book this appears on page 161 of Document Bock 4, and the passage that you are referring to - the quotation from Milch - does not appear. Why do you bring it up? It isn't in the English document book at all.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honors, that is something I was just coming to because through this I was going to show how unreliable these records - these minutes - of those meetings are. If a man is described es present and sneaking during a meeting by the stenographer - the court re porter - although he isn't present, then it shows how little documentary value can be attached to such document.
THE WITNESS: I might add something to this. There have been frequent complaints from individual gentlemen to the effect that they were being quoted as speakers present.
Q. (By Dr. Bergold) Would you repeat that, witness?
A. There have been frequent complaints from gentlemen that they had been listed as present and speakers in the records but that they had not spoken at all, or that they had not been there at all, and also gentlemen had been present who had spoken who were equally complaining that their words had been attributed to someone else. That happened quite often. There used to be only one stenographer taking notes.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honors, the reason why I am referring to the German minutes of this affair is because that is the decisive one. The English translation, of course, is not authentic. The German record is authentic.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you are merely attacking the veracity, the credibility, of the whole system of taking the minutes.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, quite, the entire system.
Q. (By Dr. Bergold) Witness, let us return to this building work. Is it not correct to say that now after this Hitler and Goering order had not been abolished in spite of your attempts, that the Jaegerstab was now responsible for supervision over such buildings or the supervision of the carrying out of such orders respectively?
A. No, no, that was not the job of the Jaegerstab. For that Hitler had appointed the OT, contrary to the previous procedure, according to which OT was the only building outside Germany - OT being Organization Todt - and Speer's refusal with reference to this building work had linked to it that Hitler had by-passed Speer and had taken over the carrying-out of such building through OT himself. Speer too had been comparatively removed from such building work. There was considerable anger between Speer and Hitler due to this question at the time.
Q Witness, did the Jaegerstab have anything to do with workers?
A If you mean building workers, no.
Q I mean generally speaking, for the moment.
A I see. Well, you have to draw a clear dividing line. Those were completely different conceptions for us, armament workers and building workers. Armament workers came precisely through existing channels; in other words, requests made to Sauckel by the industries and fulfillment of such requests or non-fulfillment of such requests by Sauckel. News about this first of all went to Speer's ministry through the armament inspectorates, and secondly, there were statistics and reports monthly from industry to air force. Building workers, on the other hand, did not concern any one of us at all, not even statistically speaking; that is, insofar as the CL was concerned, and his representatives on the Jaegerstab. This was entirely a problem for Todt's organization. We knew absolutely nothing about this problem as far as we were concerned.
Q Witness, did the Jaegerstab include a member of the CBA, the Plenipotentiary for Labor, Sauckel, on its board?
A I cannot at this moment recollect that accurately, but I believe not. As far as I know, these questions were only being dealt with in the sphere of speer's ministry. That was Mr. Schmelter, who has been a witness in this trial, and who on his part used to hear our requests and used to take our requests to his ministry to help them as far as he could.
Q In order to help in labor problems did Schmelter have to go to Sauckel on his part?
A Yes, quite decidely. He, on his own initiative, could not distribute workers because he did not have any workers reserves of any kind.
Q I shall now put before you the plan of the Jaegerstab which has been submitted as Exhibit 70, NOKW 261, which is contained in Document Book IV, on page 1 of the document book of the prosecution - Exhibit 70, NOKW 261, Document Book 4, page 1.
Witness, is this an absolutely accurate plan and are the names listed on the right-hand side all leading and permanent members of the Jaegerstab?
A. With reference to this let me say that only the right-hand column belongs under Jaegerstab. Where it says afterwards, responsible department groups and leading departments, we are concerned with the very sources in the other ministries which on their own part were dealing with recommendations by the Jaegerstab to carry them out or not, as the case might have been, and then further to the left we have the higher bureaucratic sources in these departments which have the work to do, but outside the sphere of the Jaegerstab.
Heads of the Jaegerstab, Speer and Milch, that is correct. That is correct, and as long as Speer was sick, Saur, of course, was his deputy, since I myself could not represent him as I did not give orders to Speer's ministry. I could only give orders to the organization of the GL. Pauli, Supplies - Pauli, that is correct.
Q. Was he a permanent member?
A. I would assume so. I did not call these men in. Everybody sent his own men from his own ministry so that personally I only appointed members from the air force side, whereas Saur and Speer had to appoint their own people, and this man, Pauli, came from Speer's ministry, of course.
Construction, Schlem; he too came from Spear's ministry. Road and Transport, Nagel; also Speer's ministry. Quota System end Raw Materials, Stoffregen; once again comes from Speer's ministry. Labor Allocation, Schmelter; he too came from the armament ministry. Allocation of Output, Birkenholz; those were additional PX supplies and such as compensations for extra work. That again is Speer's ministry. Transfers, Speh; he too comes from Speer's ministry. You can see that in the third column going from left to right. Then there are additional supplies, semi-completed materials. That nan was called Schaf. He too comes from Speer's ministry. Fighter Deputy for Production, Lange; he came from Saur's office in Speer's ministry.
Q. Just one moment, please. I would like to stop you for a moment. Wasn't it to be expected that such a man who had part responsibility for fighters should have come from your ministry?
A. This is not a question of technical developments of fighter types. This is merely a question of mass production. In other words, it was a production expert who was qualified as an expert on motor car production, for instance.
Then follows representatives for Production and Fighter Repairs. He, too, comes from Saur's department in Speer's ministry. Then follows planning of many factory sites. Dr. Wegener, too, comes from Speer. Immediate Measures and Aircraft Matters, I think it says.
Lucht -- he, too, comes from Speer's ministry ...
Q Just one moment. But these people were being used for special purposes in the Fighter Production program; that they should come from Speer's ministry -- is that evidence to the effect that there had been this transfer already?
A Yes; without question. First of all, regarding the change-over; and secondly, Air Armament, of course, had even previously had not anything to do with these questions and was depending on the organization of the Armament Ministry in any case. Then comes the question of Mining Operations -Gabel is the name; and this was construction work demanded by Goering -Subterranean work -- and he belongs to the Ministry. Then comes the question of Rail and Water Transportation: Pueckel. He belongs to the Traffic Ministry. He is a railway representative. Then comes Signal System; he belongs to the Postal Ministry (Zerbel). Then follows Medical Expert Advice Dr. Poschmann. He, I think, belonged to the General Commissioner for Hygiene. That was Brandt, who, as far as I know, came directly under Hitler. That is the doctor, Brandt; not Himmler's man.
Then follows Special Subterranean Construction: Kammler. He came under the Reichsfuhrer SS Himmler.
Q Just one moment. Was he a permanent member of the Jaegerstab?
A I can only recollect having seen him once, rather briefly. He might have been there more often but I only attended a minor portion of all these conferences, of course.
Q Was he a leading member?
A No; certainly not. He was a liaison man from Himmler who somehow -I don't know how or through whom -- was being brought into these tasks, presumably by a direct order from Hitler.
Q Was he concerned with the actual tasks of the Jaegerstab, or only with the order he had with Hitler?
A Well, of course, only with that task. I know that he had been talking to Goering, too, on one occasion. It became apparent from some sort of correspondence, I think.
Then follow the three main committees for Aircraft: Aircraft Engines and Aircraft Equipment. They were, as far as they were, main committees under Speer's jurisdiction. And as far as these men: Frydag, Werner and Heyne, who are listed are concerned, they, as persons, were advisors to the so-called Industrial Committees. They were advisors of the GL. In other words, they had to give tasks. As far as they were advisors, they were independent, on the same level with the GL. They were not under his command as far as they were main committees; they were part of the administration of the industry, and were in that capacity under Speer's command.
Then follows Anti-Air Raid Protection: Schnauder. He was under our -the Air Forces -- command, the so-called Thirteenth Inspectorate for Civilian Air Raid Protection. Then the liaison officer listed, the liaison officer of the Air Force: He was a member of the general staff of the Air Force and had been detailed with them. And then there was a liaison officer with the Chief of Army Armament and OKW. He was under the command of the commander of the Home Forces, and through that directly under Keitel.
Q Witness, who composed this list of persons? Who worked that?
A That was Saur's job. The bulk of these people he had to decide upon in any case.
Q Were you previously asked as to who was to be taken in?
A No. Considering the type of collaboration, this is neither necessary nor possible.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honors, I should like to make a pause now since it is ten to eleven.
THE PRESIDENT: We will make a pause.
THE MARSHALL: This Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal II is again in session.
Q. Witness, I'm still speaking of the construction. Not so long ago it was mentioned that you gave a report to Hitler with reference to the general concession situation. That was during a meeting of the Jaegerstab. What did you tell him? That does not mean that the Jaegerstab in spite of everything had the constructions under it.
A. My speech on the 6th of April 1944, at Hitler's was a reference to construction and had nothing whatsoever to do with the Jaegerstab. Actually, it was a construction quota, a distribution; in other words, the distribution of cement, stones, tiles, and wood for construction purposes, namely, the distribution on the various contingent bearers. That is a task of the Central Planning Board. With reference to this construction material, when the final drawing up came, no cement for a single stone was distributed; but that was expressed in construction quotas. As Speer at the time was sick, I had to get Hitler's permission for the Central Planning Board. It was a day which I mentioned before, namely, when I drew Hitler's attention to the fact that for Hitler's new headquarters just as many contingent construction quota were distributed as for the civilian airraid precaution program of the entire population. Altogether there were 28,000 tons of cement. They were all included in that figure.
Q. Witness, in some other passage the point is discussed that the construction quota of the Jaegerstab amounted to 550 millions; and here the Jaegerstab is the one that is the contingent or quota bearer. How can we understand that?
A. Before the Jaegerstab existed they had for the constructions the air ministry, which was the quota bearer. In other words, in Germany we called that the person or the ministry for whom the construction was to take place, that person for which purpose or for whose purpose constructions were to be carried out. If a man wanted to build himself a house, then he instructed or ordered an engineer or architect to build it. The man himself was the construction orderer, that is, the man who was going to own the house, and the architect was the "Bauunternehmer" or the man taking over the construction.
In this particular case the air ministry was the ministry to own the construction because the constructions were being built for the air benefit; and the organization Todt or the construction organization in Speer's group were the architects.
When the Jaegerstab came and there were orders from both Hitler and Goering for construction work, then somebody had to be the person to own the construction afterwards on whose account the constructions quotas went, if this man did not want the construction and knew nothing about the construction questions.
I cannot tell if I have been explicit enough.
Q. Witness, the construction work which was stated by Hitler which had to be constructed either by Kammler or Dorsch, was that all for the purpose of the Jaegerstab or also for other armament purposes?
A. I know that also for many other purposes or, rather, these constructions were meant for many other purposes because if these questions were discussed in the Jaegerstab I repeatedly heard Sauer or some of his representatives saying, "We wish to change this; we want to use concrete, reinforced concrete here; or here, for instance, we will use V-2 rockets."
That is how it fluctuated. In any case I know that the subterranean constructions or tunnels were meant for other ministries and purposes.
Q Witness, did you ever near about the fact that for the construction of the surface concrete factories concentration camp inmates were to be used?
A I heard that in the Jaegerstab, I believe; and that is how we can explain Kammler's task.
Q Witness, in any of your capacities as GL, as member of the Central Planning Board, or member of the Jaegerstab, what did you have to do with the concentration camp inmates? Did you apply for those?
A No, we had nothing whatsoever to do with it. But they were requisitioned in a manner which I did not know at the time, or, rather, they were assigned to the industry. At that time I knew from a conference that In Oranienburg, near Heinkel, or East Heinkel the people were being used for the concentration camps which were near there and that laborers had been withdrawn from there and sent to Heinkel's. I heard there that one of my men said that the work that was being done over there was good work, I did not myself see these inmates while working. However, at that time I was convinced of the fact on the basis of my visit to the concentration camp of Dachau in 1935 that these were in the main only German criminals.
Q Witness, I shall submit to you now a document, Number 1584-PS, Exhibit Number 71, from Book Number IV of the prosecution, with reference to the Jaegerstab. This is the fourth document from the beginning.
I wish you to take a look at the telegram of the 14th of February 1944 sent by Goering to Himmler. Do you remember this telegram and what did you have to do with it?
A No, I only saw this here for the first time at these trials, for I myself did not send this request. It seems to deal with laborers for the transfer of the industry to subterranean sanctuaries. We had nothing to do with that question, not even indirectly. As Goering himself was the man who requested the subterranean construction works, it could possibly be in connection with his wish. That ZBV squadron is mentioned here which had been set up at Himmler's. I did not know that myself. I had heard from Speer, however, that the SS required some counterpart for whatever services they furnished. At Speer's they had asked for a certain percentage of the armament so that I con understand that here they applied for an air formation from Goering for some purpose which is unknown to me.
Q Witness, I want you to go through the pages. You'll see here a letter of Himmler's in which there are reports to Goering as to what purposes concentration camp inmates were used for. Do you know of Himmler's latter here and the charge, which is a little bit farther on? And did you know anything about those things?
A No, I cannot recall anything at all about this matter.
Q The whole number of factories are mentioned here in which concentration camp inmates were used. Didn't you know anything at all about all these factories?
A May I go through the document? It says here, "Construction of ack ack positions, and than manufacture of ack ack guns." We had nothing to do with that.
Then as to the construction or the completion of the plants at Siemens-Schuckert Auschwitz, we had nothing to do with them. When later an airplane parts production at Erla-Leipsiz, we did have something to do with this.
Q. Witness, I don't want to go through the single items here in detail, as the witness Haertl has already done so. What I want to know from you is, is it the truth you did not know anything about these factories except the Heinkel in Oranienburg?
A. No, all I knew was the Heinkel-Oranienburg factory, that is all. I went over this, and I find that a great part of these factories here which were mentioned had nothing to do with the air industry.
Q. Witness -
THE PRESIDENT: Just a minute. With the plant in Butschowitz, which was making rear control apparatus for the M-101, for the Messerschmidt, did you have anything to do with that?
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, what page is this?
Q. It is on the second page of Himmler's letter.
A. Yes, the second page of Himmler's letter, yes, it seems. This is the last aircraft plant at Butschowitz making of certain parts of planes, Your Honor.
Q. All right.
A. I did not know of a factory by the name of Zwedau. I did not know what it was all about.
Q. Zwedau?
A. Sledau, Your Honor. I did not know where it is supposed to be.
Q. Are we looking at the same document? I am looking at a letter from Himmler to Goering, Document No. 1584-PS, dated 9 March 1944?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that the one you are looking at?
A. Yes, Your Honor.
Q. Now, near the end of the letter, which is the second paragraph from the end a reference is made about manufacturing fourteen-thousand wooden rear control apparatuses for Messerschmidts.
A. Yes, I do, Your Honor.
Q. You mean to tell us that you did not know this was being done. das not this done for the Luftwaffe?
A. I am certain of them, that this was being built for the Luftwaffe, however, there were sub-orders which were given them by the industry, that directly the G-L has been informed about it, and in these singular instances.
Q. You mean to say you did not know about this particular factory, or what it was doing for the Luftwaffe?
A. Your Honor, we from the G1 gave out orders to the industry, namely, to the main factory where these people had their parts made, or their single parts; that happened in the main factory, or in a subsidiary branch, or with foreign factories with sub-orders. It was not our task to know that, therefore, we did not know which factory they were given to.
Q. I understand the system of sub-contracts. I merely asked whether you know about this one. I understand that contracts are lot out to the sub-contractors. I merely asked whether you know about this particular one?
A. I know nothing whatsoever about this special case. Your Honor.
Q. All right. You did know about the Heinkel works at Oranienburg?
A. Yes, I learned that, Your Honor. I learned that an agreement had been reached either immediately between the Heinkel factory and the concentration camp of Oranienburg; however, we only learned about these things much later. Probably it was during the end of my activity where.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, you just told us that the SS always received some sort of payment for the services which they gave by putting concentration camp inmates at somebody's disposal. Did you as GL ever pay or give anything to the SS for those activities for the use of concentration camp inmates?
A. I can not speak of gifts; we had nothing whatsoever we could give away to these SS. Whatever we had to give away we gave away to Goering. We gave for instance portable typewriters -- Goering gave them planes.
Q. How did you say that, say it again?
A. Goering gave an order to give Himmler two YU-52's. They of course, were built in our industry, and we had to carry out those orders. Here they discussed a whole squadron. These orders were probably given out by the Quartermaster General. This is a transport passenger plane, and was not given out by us directly, but we only built it. I gave them all to the Quartermaster General, and from there they were sent down. With reference to these passenger planes, I knew they were or had been sent to Himmler. I knew nothing of this squadron here.
Q. Did you know what Himmler wanted them for?
A. No. That is, as I said before, I did not give them to Himmler myself. I have an idea what Himmler used to do with them, as he used to do a lot of flying, and he only wanted a plane for his own purpose, and one for his staff. I think that is what they were used for.
Q. Witness, otherwise you had nothing to do with the concentration camp, or the concentration camp directly, did you?
A. I believe a letter was submitted to me once. I did not know whom it was sent to, that letter which said we had to thank somebody immediately. We had not done so, and, therefore, the help which the SS wanted to give us would have been withdrawn if we would not thank them. The man concerned came to our planning office for Speer. That man came to see me, and I told him to show this to Goering for his signature. However, he said at the same time that he was a technical officer of Goering's at the planning office, and Goering had said I was to sign it. It was then the only case which I can think of right now which I am accounting for while I was with the GL, namely, where I thanked somebody for something; however, I have no exact reaction with reference to this letter.
Q. Witness, did you hear in connection with service for concrete construction work, that Hitler gave orders then for the use of onehundred thousand Jews, or did the Fighter Staff request this?
A. I aim sure that the Jaegerstab did not do that. I can not tell exactly for sure if before the collapse I knew anything at all about this matter. I know from the record that Hitler had a discussion, or was to have a discussion on 4 January 1944 about this question. How ever, I know that these discussions lasted for quite a few days, I believe, from the 4th of January I participated for a very short time in these conversations. I did not know, or remember, or I can not recall if during the time I was in office they had discussed that point.
Q. Did you later on find out that the concentration camp inmates, or rather Jewish concentration camp inmates, were used in this construction?
A. I never found out for sure.
Q. However, in the sessions of the Jaegerstab they had discussed that point?
A. Yes, however, I can not remember anything about it. Many things were discussed there every day, so that it is not quite possible to remember every detail that they discussed.
Q. During these conferences or meetings, the number of which you had mentioned, did you always or permanently participate in these conferences?
A. No, I was called out several times, or very often. I left on my own sometimes in order to make certain arrangements in connection with my other field of tasks, otherwise, I would not be able to do any work whatsoever in my other field of tasks. At that time I had the whole work of General Foorster under my orders, and also the entire training of the Luftwaffe; on top of that were the questions of the Inspectorate General and his problems.