How difficult my task becomes thereby is proved by the following fact. I intended to extract from Italy a million workers within the quarter ending may 30th. hardly 7,000 arrived in the two months which expired so far. This is indeed the difficulty. The bulk enters the protected factories, and only the chaff remains for my purpose to send them to Germany. At least I hope to accomplish that with regard to larger enterprises as tho number of protected factories is restricted in Italy, that is, the number of protected factories, will not be further increased.
On the proceeding page, the quarter reading "May 30th" should read "March 30th" "SAUCKEL:
This indeed is the decisive question, the one we are dealing with now. If half of the program for four million workers to be brought to Germany, this means two million , cannot be fulfilled, the employment of labor in Germany will fall off this year. The more useful workers however, are in France, and of course in Italy too, employed in the protected factories. Therefore, if I an not to touch the protected factories which are situated in these countries, this will have the effect that the loss valuable workers instead of the more valuable type will arrive in Germany. And here we have to ponder about what is in fact more important and expedient. If we give up using these people in Germany, where we effectively rule the factories, where moreover, we keep to a different labor discipline and reach better labor results than in France proper, then we give up the valuable kind, and then I shall only be able to transport to Germany the less valuable kind of people who still can be found on the streets of France or Italy,or people like waiters, hairdressers, small folk from tailor shops, etc.
"MILCH: What is the percentage of protected factories in Italy compared with the whole of Italian Labor?
SCHIEBER: I think 14, but I have not got the figures here.
"MILCH: Would not the following method be better? We could take under 240(a) German administration the entire food supply for the Italians and tell then:
only he gets any food who either works in a protected factory or goes to Germany:
"SAUCKEL: True, the French worker in France is better nourished than the German worker is in Germany, and the Italian worker too, even if he doesn't work at all , is better nourished in the part of Italy occupied by us than if he works in Germany. This is why I asked the German food authorities over and over again to improve also the food of the German worker introducing the "factory sandwich." When I am in Paris of course I go to Maxim's. There one can experience miracles of nourishment. He still thinks that in these countries only very rich men can go to Maxim's, are well provided with food. Thereupon I sent my assistants to the Paris suburbs, to the estaminets and lunch restaurants and was told that the Frenchmen who eat there did not feel the shortage caused by the war to any degree comparable with what our nation has to experience. The average French citizen too can still buy everything he wishes.
"Interruption: this is still more so in so all places.
"Yes. Moreover, the Frenchman can pay for what he can get. Therefore he has no reason for wishing to go to Germany in order to get better food. Thus unfortunately is the case.
MILCH: Is there nothing we can do? True, we might not be able to control the distribution to the customer, but we ought to be able to intervene at an earlier stage of distribution.
"KOERNER: he have requested from France really immense amounts of food; these requests have always been fulfilled; often after some pressure, but they have been fulfilled.
"MILCH : But there is a simple remedy; let us cease supplying the troops from Germany, but tell them to provide the food for themselves from Franco. Then in a few weeks they will have everything eaten up, and then we can start distributing the food to the Frenchmen.
"KOERNER: In France there still as for the time being a rationing system.
The Frenchmen and his ration card in which he receives the minimum. The rest he provides in other ways, partly by receiving food parcels which we cannot touch at all. Every year we increase our food demands to the French Government who always satisfied them, though very frequently yielding to pressure, and in proportion to the harvest results, were they good or bad. In Italy the situation is that food is not rationed at all. The Italians can buy and eat what he wants, and since an Italian has always money and deals in the Black Market, he is in a much better situation than our German worker who practically has nothing but what he get on his card.
"MILCH: But don't we even send food to Italy?
"KOERNER: We are exchanging certain goods.
"SAUCKEL: Moreover we are now at the point that the families of French and Italian workers are no longer in a better position owing to the money transfer if their bread-winning members are working in Germany than if they remain abroad; now nothing remains to induce them to go to Germany.
"MILCH: And the second question is this: will it be possible at all to catch and transfer the 80% who are not employed in protected factories considering the lack of a so-called executive and divergence of opinions with regard to that problem."
There seems to be some variation here, your Honor. If we may have a moment we will see if we can clear it up.
THE PRESIDENT: It's so near recess time, if you would like to do it during that time --
MR. DENNEY: Very good, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: The tribunal will recess until one thirty.
THE MARSHAL: All persons in the courtroom will arise. The Tribunal will recess until 1330 hours.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours)
242(a) AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 7 January, 1947.)
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honorsplease, with reference to the 53rd meeting of the Central Planning Board, which we were discussing, there seems to have been some slight error in the translation, so we will suspend with the reading of that at the bottom of page 1816 of German original, which is page 12 of Your Honors' Document Book 3--A, Exhibit 48A in evidence. We are endeavoring to have the proper pages made and delivered to defense counsel.
THE PRESIDENT: I think you misspoke. It is the 54th meeting? is it not?
MR. DENNEY: I am sorry. Yes? Your Honor? it is the 54th meeting. We will have those pages from there on restencilled and retranslated and offer them at a later time. However? the part as far as we have gone is correct.
THE PRESIDENT: Where does it stop?
MR. DENNEY: On Page 12 of Book A, just after the first Sauckel speech? which is the first speech above the notation 1824 on the lefthand margin.
Now? the Exhibit 5, about which there was so much trouble? has finally been redone and retranslated. This is from Document Book 1-A, and because of the difficulty in the pages, it now contains nine pages, which we will submit to Your Honors for each of your document books. As a matter of convenience we have labelled the pages 14-A through I, and respectfully request that Your Honors insert these instead of Pages 14 through 18 which you presently have in your document book 1--A. These are 14-A through I, and we have put the pages on each one of the papers which Your Honors have. These will be substituted for the present Exhibit 5 in evidence which appears in Your Honors' Document Book 1--A. We believe that we have sufficiently covered the background material with reference to this so that it will not be necessary to read from this document.
THE PRESIDENT: Can you tell me offhand that the pages are for which these are to be substituted?
MR. DENNEY: Yes? sir; 14, 15, 16, 17, 17-A, 17-B, and 18. The reason we did it this way is because some of these pages had to be inserted in the middle and we thought it was easier.
Now directing Your Honors' attention to the results of the 54th meeting of the Central Planning Board which appear -- or rather, the results of the 53rd meeting, which we mentioned just to call Your Honors' attention to them - they appear in Document Book B Page 37. These are the results of the 53rd meeting, which has already been covered. That was the meeting held 16 March, Your Honors' attention is directed to Page 40, a rather impressive list of people who were in attendance at the meeting.
Then in Document Book A, Page 38, at the bottom of the page, there is a note on a Hitler conference Document Book 3-A Page 3* at the bottom of the page there is a note on the Hitler conference, which was prepared by Saur and seen by Speer. The conference was held on the 5th of March, a few days after the meeting which we have just referred to. This note was prepared on the 6th of March, and the defendant was at the conference. The note provides:
"Told the Fuehrer of the Reich Marshal's wish for the further utilization of the production power of prisoners of war by giving the direction of the Stalag, that is the camp, to the SS, with the exception of the English and the Americans. The Fuehrer considers the proposal good and has asked Colonel Von Belo* to arrange matters accordingly."
MR. DENNEY: The next reading of a document occurs in Document Book No. 2.
THE PRESIDENT: May I interrupt you, Mr. Denney,
MR. DENNEY: Yes, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: Was this the first date at which the camps were turned over to the SS?
MR. DENNEY: This is the first date that we have any note of so far as these people are concerned, Your Honor. These camps that I refer to here it is submitted are the lator camps. These are not the concentration camps.
THE PRESIDENT: That clears it up.
MR. DENNEY: No, no, the concentration camps at all times were under the SS.
THE PRESIDENT: That is what I understood.
MR. DENNEY: Yes, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: And the stalags refer only to labor camps?
MR. DENNEY: Yes, sir, in this instance, and the word "stalag" is used for any kind of camp, a prisoner of war camp, and obviously here the labor camps also apply, and the prisoner of war camps; that is where they are getting it, and that they do accept the American and the English, they do except those and all the others, yes.
The Document No. 1297, which appears at page 65, which is in Document book 2-B, this will become Exhibit No. 53, page 65 in Document Book 2-B, is a letter of 9 March 1944, Sauckel to Dr. Lammers.
DR. MILCH: It is not clear as to what the German designation is?
MR. DENNEY: I believe you will find that at page 111 of the German book. Do you have it Dr. Milch?
MR. DENNY: This letter is dated, "Berlin 8 March 1944." It is written from Sauckel, the general Plenipotentiary for Labor, and to the Reich Minister and Chief of the Reich Chancellory, Dr. Lammers. It reads: "Your Excellency, Reich Minister:
I have the privilege of informing you that in spite of the greatest difficulties, in the period from 1 January until 6 March of this year, inclusive, altogether 303 124 now - i.e. not previously introduced into the labor market nonfluctuating laborers have been assigned to the German war economy.
This figure includes 89 390 German men and women 164 096 foreign workers 49 638 prisoners of war.
The German workers are persons discharged from the Wehrmacht, and other formations, newly recruited workers, women who were not gainfully employed before, youths who are employed for the first time, and finally persons who heretofore were independent.
(signed) Fritz Sauckel."
The next is the document NOKW 017, which appears in Document Book 2-C. I believe it is the final document in that book. It begins in Your Honors' book at page 110 of Document Book 2-C, and in the German translation it begins at page 182. This is offered as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 54. This is a copy of a speech made by the defendant in his capacity as Chief of the Jaegerstab. The Court will also bear in mind that he was also chairman, as well as Geuleiter, at the conference with Air Force engineers and Chief Quartermasters on 25 March 1944. The speech is very long and I will only read parts of it into the record. On page 110, beginning:
"Field Marshal Milch: Gentlemen. I welcome you. I have called you together here in order to discuss with you questions of importance for our German defense." And then dropping down to the end of the first paragraph, the last full sentence but one: " -- We do have in our employ today approximately 60% foreigners, and 40% Germans, whereby one has to take into consideration that the 'women work in the factories only half a day. Therefore, the ratio of Germans to foreigners become considerably more unfavorable. The ratio is gradually approaching 90% foreigners with 10% German managers The rest of the Germans are concentrated in development factories and the like."
The next quotation appears on page 113, at page 5 of the original speech. I don't know -- the full paragraph starts on that page with the word "The Jaegerstab." "The Jaegerstab is made up as follows: The direction is in the hands of Reich Minister Speer and myself." I don't think we have to go into any further statement by the defendant to the effect that he was along with Speer, the head of the Jaegerstab, and, I would like to bring to the Court's attention something that appears at the very top of page 6 of the original, which appears on page 114 of Your Honor's text.
"The evacuation under ground will be in the hands of SS Gruppenfuehrer Hammler." It is the heading with that quotation following: "The evacuation underground will be in the hands of SS Gruppenfuehrer Hammler," and Mr. King will come forward to present the Jaegerstab part of the case which will follow, and in reference to that it will be apparent why that was made.
Then at page 7 of the original, and at page 115 of Your Honors' Document Book, Milch when speaking about how these Jaegerstab tours are made by himself and his staff when going to the various plants, speaks as follows. The sentence starts out, Mr. Interpreter, "On the spot."
"On the spot the individual gentlemen are then told -- supported by the combined authority of the State, the Wehrmacht, and the party, that is, Sauer and me, Speer is unfortunately still on sick leave, otherwise he would also be present." Sauer is not in the Army. Speer is not in the Army. Sauer was deputy to Milch in the Jaegerstab, and was also a man who was in charge of an armament program on a large schedule for the Army and the Navy in the years preceding this.
Then at the bottom of page 8 of the original. Sentence at the beginning of the paragraph. "Then there is still the human factor" it should be, Dr. Milch.
MR. DENNEY: "Then there is still the human factor. We often had considerable difficulty with the human factor. The fluctuation there is very considerable. The quota of the Luftwaffe in the distribution of manpower was constantly lowered. The foreigners run away. They do not keep any contract. There are difficulties with Frenchman, Italians, Dutch."
The prisoners of war are partly unruly and fresh. The people are also supposed to be carrying on sabotage. These elements cannot be made more efficient by small means. They are just not handled strictly enough. If a decent foreman would sock one of those unruly guys because the fellow won't work, then the situation would soon change. International Law cannot be observed here. I have assorted myself very strongly, and with the help of Sauer I have represented the point of view very strongly that the prisoners, with the exception of the English and the Americans should be taken away from the military authorities. The soldiers are not in a position, as experience has shown, to cope with these fellows who know all the answers. I shall take very strict measures here and shall put such a prisoner of war before my court martial. If he has committed sabotage or refused to work, I will have him hanged, right in his own factory. I am convinced that that will not be without effect."
Here we have him speaking on the 25th saying that he will have people who refused to work, who are prisoners, not the Americans or the English -- no, he's afraid of them -- the same words that he used telling of what he had done in the 53rd meeting where he had two Russian officers who were working in one of his plants, who escaped or tried to escape, whose plane crashed, and who he ordered to be hanged or shot by the SS. To says at the time, "It was done yesterday. He didn't know which.
"Anyhow, the strongest things occur in the treatment of the workers. It is said that the people collapse, and then one has to find out that they have a furlough of three or four days every eight weeks. That is dirty business of the first order, and treason to the country. Then perhaps a construction battalion arrives and is supposed to be put to work. The commanding officer, perhaps some overfed grade school teacher, declares that the men must drill and must take part in sports. Damn it, the fellows are there to work so that the maximum amount of work will result. One has to act very strictly here.
A construction battalion was ordered to Regensburg. The commanding officer was one of those scholars she said he could not billet the men in peace time conditions, therefore he refused to start to work. Such a guy should be convicted by a court martial and hanged. I would be grateful if the gentlemen would proceed in that manner. As with me in industry, so every stupidity is possible everywhere else. As chief, one has to take up these matters. I know what kind of obstacles become apparent. There is bureaucracy. It is not easy to go against bureaucracy. But we have to cut through that also, and if you gentlemen proceed in the right attitude here, we are already assured of success."
The next occurs on Page 128 of Your Honor's book, which is Page 22 of the German original. I don't have the page of the German translation. It's in the middle of a page and the paragraph in which it is starts out with the word "Gentlemen". However, there are two references to 20 percent in the paragraph just ahead of it. I think Dr. Milch has it. Perhaps he on give it to you.
DR. MILCH(Acting Defense Counsel): I have it; 3200.
MR. DENNEY: He says, "In saying this, I do not even consider the fact that the workshops have first-class personnel; whereas we in the Luftwaffe armament inductry have Russians, French prisoners of war, Dutch, and members of 32 other nations."
The next quotation appears on the bottom of Page 133, which is the last full paragraph on Page 33 of the original speech. The paragraph starts out. "I further ask for support by the Luftwaffe physicians." That is Page 133 of the Document Book. It's the last paragraph on the page, on the very bottom. That is Page 207 in the German book.
"I further ask for support by the Luftwaffe physicians. With all the rabble that we have among the foreign workers, there is of course a lot of skirking. At the moment the Russians -- that is, the Russian prisoners of war -- are feigning a lot of fatigue and illness. The incidence of sickness of one a half to two percent which we have had up to now has at least doubled and in some factories it has been increased to eight, nine and ten percent.
That is, of course, done by previous agreement. There the official physicians must undertake an examination and if the physicians, who have to be very strict, find out that it is not true, then we return the fellows to work by means of the whip. Then the whip serves as a cure."
Field Marshal in the Luftwaffe handling prisoners of war with a whip because they won't work in something they are forbidden to work in by the Geneva and Hague Conventions.
Page 143 of Your Honors' document book; it's the latter half of Page 43 in the original part of the speech and the first part of 49, and the conclusion of the Field Marshal's origin I remarks. It's just ahead of the speech starting by Sauer. Find out where Sauer speaks, then you can go back ahead of it one paragraph. The sentence starts out: "Let everyone consider that if he does not do his duty......." It's before Sauer; the first full paragraph, and then up about three sentences, and then the paragraph before that.
"Let everyone consider that if he does not do his duty, we do not ask whether there is a law; we ask only that he is the responsible one and that we will seize him no matter who he is. We also get this help from the other offices, but from you as comrades of the Luftwaffe, we expect to receive the first help and the strongest help. That is your honor-bound duty. That is the foundation upon which the Luftwaffe stands. That is the justification for existence for you and for us all.
"Please go whereever you are going and knock everybody down who blocks your way. We cover up everything here. We do not ask whether he is allowed to or whether he is not allowed to. For us, there is nothing but this one task. We are fanatics in this sphere, be do not even consider letting anything at at all distract us from that task.
No order exists which could prevent me from fulfilling this task. Nor shall I ever be given such an order. Now, do not let anything hinder you, and get your people to the point that no one hinders them. If there is a little hindrance from below, this is not due to ill-will, but to stupidity. Gentlemen, in the fifth year of war, stupidity is punishable."
And the last quotation occurs on the last page of the speech, which is Page 155 in Your Honors' Document Book, starting out: "Gentlemen, I know not every subordinate can say: for me, the law no longer exists, but he has to have someone who covers up for him, not out of cowardice. But if you act according to the spirit of the old field service regulation, "Abstaining from doing something hurts us more than erring in the choice of the means," and if, moreover, you keep in touch and immediately clarify difficult points, so that something can be done, then we are willing to accept the responsibility, whether this is the law or not. I see only two possibilities for me and for Germany: either we succeed and therby save Germany, or we continue these slipshod methods and then get the fate that we deserve. I refer to fall, while I am doing something that is against the rules but that is right and sensible, and be called to account for it, and if you like, hanged, rather than be hanged because Papa Stalin is here in Berlin, or the Englishmen. I have no desire for that. I would rather die in a different way. But I think we can accomplish this task, too. We are in the fifth year of war. I repeat: The decision will come during the next six weeks. Heil Hitler."
The next document is a Hitler conference of April 9, 1944 which appears in Document Book 3 A at Page 39. This is a memorandum prepared on 9 April 1944: Minutes of the Discussions with Hitler of the 6th and 7th of April. It's on Page 39 of Your Honors' Document Book 3 A. The memorandum is prepared by Speer.
"Suggested to the Fuehrer that, due to lack of builders and equipment, the second big building project should not be set up in German territory, but in close vicinity to the border on suitable soil (preferable on gravel base and with transport facilities) on French , Belgian or Dutch territory.
The Fuehrer agrees to this suggestion if the works could be set up behind a fortified zone. For the suggestion of setting this plant up in French territory speaks mainly the fact that it would be much easier to procure the necessary workers. Nevertheless, the Fuehrer asks an attempt be made to set up the second works in a safer area, namely in the Protectorate. If it should prove impossible there too to get hold of the necessary workers, the Fuehrer himself will contact the Reichsfuehrer SS"--speaking of Himmler--" and will give an order that the required 100,000 men are to be made available by bringing, in Jews from Hungary. Stressing the fact that the building 252-A organization of the (Industriegemainschaft Schlesien Silesia) was a failure, the Fuehrer demands that those works must be built by the Organization Todt exclusively and that the workers should be made available by the Reichsfuehrer So. He wants to hold a meeting shortly in order to discuss details with all the men concerned."
MR. DENNEY: If your Honors plea so, this refers to the construction of some airplane plants.
DR. MILCH (Acting Counsel for the Defendant): May I point out that that document is not complete in our Document Book. We would also like to ask what was the exhibit number of it.
MR. DENNEY: Dr. Milch, I might state at this time that Books 3-A and B were all offered under No. R-124 and bear Exhibits No. 48-A and 48-B. Now as to the compete note made by Speer, Dr. Bergold, Counsel for the Defendant, is at liberty to go over to the Document Room and examine the German original. It has been the custom - that complete translations are not made and the complete document is not offered in view of the great bulk which would thereby be placed before the Court. That procedure has been followed up to this time in this trial and also before the International Tribunal.
DR. MILCH: I ask only because part of the document was read of which I had no copy in German and I had presumed only parts would be road of which I had a copy.
MR. DENNEY: I am extremely sorry. I didn't know you had not a copy.
DR. MILCH: The copy that I have is not complete.
DR. DENNEY: We will endeavor to see if we have the original in German here.
If your Honors please, I would like the record to show that the complete exerpt which was read was shown to the defendant's counsel and that the German translation apparently stopped a few lines short of the exhibit which was read. We will furnish defendant's counsel with a complete translation this evening.
I will direct your Honors' attention to the figure 100,000 Hungarian Jews which appears in the note of this conference. When we go into the Jaegerstab case that figure applying to those nationals will be again called to your Honors' attention.
The next and last meeting of the Central Planning Board with which we are concerned is the 58th Meeting which appears on page 14 and 15 of your Honors' Document Book - Document Book 3 A, pages 14 and 15. That is page 29 in the 254-A German book.