Q. Please give me back my Document Book. In that letter did you promise to release Rascher from the Luftwaffe?
A. Yes, I had the intention to comply with this regulation of the SS, only I had to order him, as we followed the principle that before you transferred from one service to another --- in this case it was the Waffen SS --- the person concerned should be asked if possible and the whole thing should be arranged as an exchange.
821a
Q Witness, I now give you -- shall we stop here, if it please the Court? This would take a quarter of an hour.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. The court will recess until Tuesday morning at ninethirty.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 11 February 1947, at 0930 hours.)
Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 11 February 1947, 0930, Justice Tems presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal No. 2. Military Tribunal No. 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the courtroom.
ERIC HIPPKE (Resumed) DIRECT EXAMINATION (continued)
DR. BERGOLD: Witness. May I continue, Your Honor? May I continue with the examination of the witness, Your Honor? Witness, I shall come back to the letter of the Obergruppenfuehrer Wolf of the 27th of November 1942, Document No. 269, Exhibit No. 118.
MR. DENNEY: Page 179 of the English Document Book 5-D, your Honor.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, in this letter Wolf writes the following sentence after he had previously mentioned the difficulties concerning the experiments which had arisen and which existed between Rascher and the other doctors. He writes the following sentence: "I do not want that you and he get crossed about this development." He furthermore says in the next to last paragraph of his letter. "If Dr. Rascher had stayed with the Luftwaffe, then I am sure there would have been a lot of trouble because the Reichsfuehrer SS then would have to bring matters to you which have occurred so far and will also occur in the future. Professor Holzloehner especially plays a role here in order to save you and him a lot of trouble, The Reichsfuehrer SS requests you to transfer Dr. Rascher to the Waffen SS as quickly as possible." Witness, how did you understand these messages in the letter, particularly in the language used at that time in Germany?
A. This tension was clear to me. It consisted in the fact that I was of the opinion that experiments are only to be carried out within the framework of the practical necessity. In other words, to be limited while I was of the impression that the SS upon Rascher's insistance had carried out these experiments to their scientific end in the interest of scientific research work.
Such scientific work I didn't think at the time was necessary and I was of the opinion that only the practical necessities of the present should be the deciding factor for the experiments. This was the controversy at which we were.
Q. Witness, I shall proceed to Exhibit 120, Document No. 268. This is your letter of 19 February 1943 to Himmler and it's on page 178 in the German Document Book. I shall give you this document book and I would appreciate it if you would read it.
A. I know this document.
Q. Witness, why did you, on the 19th of February, without any previous grounds for that, why did you write to Himmler?
A. I can explain that. During the winter, I was at the southeastern front in the Black Sea territory where there were quite a lot of transports or difficulties in transportation. When I returned, the person who was responsible for Professor Anthony told me -- according to my knowledge this was Physician General Martinis -- he submitted this prepared letter for my signature as a reason for the necessity, I was told that Professor Helzloehner had asked that this letter be sent, namely, a letter where Himmler should be thanked at the end, and he should also give this to the Commandant at Dachau for billeting him and Finke, and he also mentioned there that Himmler was against me and Holzloeher because of our limitation of the extent of these experiments. That is how this letter was sent, after the experiments had already been completed early in October. The report at that time was not ready. I mean, the report concerning the Nurnberg conference which I called in October and at which Anthony presided. It is clear that about 20 people lectured there, and of course it took quite a while until all these documents were ready and could be printed.
Q. Witness, were the thanks that were sent to the Commandant, wasn't that, thanking him for the fact that inmates were used for the experiments?
A. No, that is the way I was told that we should thank the Commandant for his billeting of our two doctors. That is how the letter was written and I signed it that way. It had been written by that particular department or by General Doctor Martius.
Q. Witness, do you know from your military career that usually in such cases where transfers took place to other camps, that later on one should the commander should be thanked for his assistance?
A Yes, that is usual. I didn't know the camp commander personally and I still don't know who the man was.
Q Witness, on the 6th of March 1943, you answered to the 825 a letter of the 21st of November 1942.
What was the value of this letter? Do you want to read this letter? This is Document 119, Your Honors, Document 262. That is just before the document we used right now of this letter of the witness to Himmler.
(Document Book is given to witness.)
A. Yes, I believe I know this letter. I believe it was presented to me in one of the previous sessions. This is the last letter that was sent out concerning that matter. I'd appreciate if you could ask me questions with respect to the contents.
Q. Witness, is your letter to be understood in that way that you told Stabsarzt Dr. Rascher that he was released from the Luftwaffe?
A. Yes, I had the intention to release him from the Luftwaffe. However, formally, I had to ask him because it was usual that only with the approval of the person to be released, the release could be signed or approved.
Q. In this letter you state, "If Rascher wants to build up his own research institute within the framework of the Waffen-SS, I have no objection. All research work within the field of aviation medicine-that is, altitude--moreover, is under my scientific supervision in my capacity as director of German aviation medicine. This institute would then be under the supervision of the Reich Physician of the SS, SS-Gruppenfuehrer Dr. Grawitz."
Witness, does that mean that concerning this new institute, you are the chief concerning the scientific supervision?
A. This should mean that I, in case there should be an institute by the SS, I would have the possibility -- concerning questions of air aviation medicine, concerning the many questions -- could have answered them. I wanted to show in this matter that there was a possibility for me concerning questions of the air aviation medicine that I could work here and assist them in their work in order that Obergruppenfuehrer Wolff could see in advance that even then he would not have to work under his own decisions; in other words, that this was a superfluous research work for me and that then it was to have the possibility concerning questions of practicality and of the necessity of the Luftwaffe, and to point out these necessities.
May I continue?
Q. Yes, please.
A. Finally, I wanted to prevent that the questions of high altitude experiments which seemed sufficient to me should be planned any longer.
Q. In the following paragraph, "Momentarily, however, this work cannot be carried on because its continuation would require a low pressure chamber in which not only the altitude of the stratosphere, but also the stratospheric temperature can be established, but there is no such chamber available in Germany as yet." What did you mean by those remarks?
A. I wanted to show my objection against these other experiments and I wanted to explain the technique. If I told that the technique was in no position whatsoever to solve these questions, then it is not necessary to touch these problems.
There was not only my disapproval concerning the experiments but for the Luftwaffe further research work was not necessary. That furthermore, I wanted to prove that the technical part of it was also impossible.
Q. Witness, may I ask something further, please?
A. At the time I knew that a new institute, the Air Aviation Method Institute was to be established, and that one of them was being built at Berlin Tempelhof, and within the immediate surroundings of my own office, and that this research institute could not be built. The whole planning was cut short during the war. In reality, I knew in other words that this institute could not be completed, and I am telling him that here, and I availed myself of the opportunity in order to decline.
Q. Witness, what happened after that concerning that part in this letter?
A. In the middle of March Dr. Rascher came to see me. I had asked him to come because I had to have his statement that he wanted to get to the SS. Shall I go on with that concerning this conference.
Q. Yes, what did you discuss with him during this conference?
A. I cannot read it to you verbatim, of course, but the conference was on the following matter. I told him, in other words, if he wanted to go back to the SS as he applied for it, all right, and he answered, "Yes, indeed, I would like to go back to the SS. I am a member -- a SS member." Whereupon I told him the reason for that I can state. I said, "You think that Rascher, you would be able to be more independent, for you are vain," and he evaded a direct answer. The answer to my question directly, I will state he was very interested in the scientific work; and that later on he wanted to get into the university, and he would like to be the manager of the Institute. I laughed at that, and I told him "I think there is plenty of time on that for you."
"Now what do you want to work on now," and he answered, "That the high altitude questions would seem very interesting". I kept kind of cross because I was sick and tired of his persistency about these high altitude questions, and I told him to forget that, and "for the time being you are no longer concerned with this. Furthermore you are beginning to trouble me doing that, because I still have something to say on the question of air aviation medicine. Besides that 828 (a) all these questions I am talking about are on the condemnation of high altitude and freezing experiments, and they will be carried on by Dr. Ruff and Dr. Romberg.
Please try to find another field for your activities."
JUDGE MASMANNO: Doctor Bergold, may I interrupt you. Don't you think that we would proceed a little more expeditiously, and perhaps a little more logically if you propounded the questions, and had the witness answer directly to you, rather than to allow him all of this latitude, or of repeating in interminable conversations, some bits of which are relevant, but most of which have nothing to do so far as I can see with regard to the guilt or innocence of the defendant.
DR. BERGOLD: You are quite right, Your Honor, at least at first sight. however, there is this: Rascher has made a report concerning this discussion with Hippke which the Prosecution has not submitted as yet, which, however, I presume will be submitted, and it is carried in his vest pocket; it was here a question of the credibility of the witness, and I want him to tell about this conversation, which through his entire attitude, is important, so Your Honors can have an uninfluence picture of the whole situation. This is a discussions, Your Honor, in which I could not possibly make any progress without leading questions. In other words, I can only ask general questions, and to let him talk as long as he wants to.
MR. DIXON: Not as long as he wants to.
DR. BERGOLD: No, not as long as he wants to. Everything he has said so far is very important, because Rascher reported the whole matter in a different way, but he said he is almost finished now.
THE WITNESS: Would you hear one more question in this connection. I think there was much concern about the whole question because I think there was conceit behind it, and I said that probably do you think you are getting promotion much easier in the SS because young people are always very anxious to get promoted, and I think that promotion in the Luftwaffe also was rather too fast than too slow.
I asked you officially, "Do you want to be transferred to the SS," and he said, "Yes, indeed". Then I said, "I shall apply for your transfer to the SS with the personnel division." I added a few more words 829 (a) which are irrelevant at this point.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Rascher stated that during those conferences, that you indicated you wanted to keep him all the time and at any price?
A. No, there was no such question that I was to keep him. Rascher at all times to me was a very unrestful person for me, who, in his conceit, followed up his personal interest, and I wanted to release him personally, and I did not keep him.
Q. Witness, during the end of 1943 you were dismissed from your job. What was the reasons as known to you?
A. At the time no reasons were stated to me. I was simply told to resign my job on 31 December 1943, and I left without being thanked. After nine years of activity and no reasons why I was being released were given.
THE RESIDENT: Dr. Bergold, was not that 1943?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, indeed, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness said "1942."
THE WITNESS: 1943, Your Honor.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Did you later on find out -- didn't you find out later on upon investigation that Himmler was behind your release?
A. At the time I sort of reasoned why I was being released, and that I was not thanked for my work. I only could think that there was a campaign against me, and saw the only reason in my resistance against Himmler, and later on I concluded that must be the reason for my release.
Q. Thank you. Witness, concerning the freezing experiments conferences, which took place in October 1942, did you report to the defendant?
A. No, according to my opinion I did not report to the defendant. I reported to my immediate supervisor, to the chief of the Luftwehr, General Foerster, for the purpose of pointing out the practical views which could be used for the Luftwaffe.
Q. Concerning the general framework, I should like to ask a few more questions. Witness, when yon heard that Rascher was with the help of the -830a SS to carry out experiments together with Ruff and Romberg, did you know of any cruelties on part of Himmler, of the Gestapo, and of the SS?
A. No, neither at that time nor later atrocities were known to me in the work of the SS. Only during the last days of the war, in other words when the collapse was imminent, I, as a civilian, was told that during the transfer from one camp to another horrible scenes resulted, which were due to the fact that during the transportation many people died.
Q. Thank you. When at the time you agreed that further experiments for high altitude experiences should be carried out, in other words, in May 1941, were there applications for respective experiments at that time from the Luftwaffe?
A. Yes, there was an application on the fact that there should be clarity as to the altitude to be reached when developing cabins of the pressurized planes.
Q. Which division applied for this, or demanded these experiments?
A. The technical development, so far as I can remember, from the technical office, as well as from the doctors who worked in these branches.
Q. That was also Professor Stuckhold and Dr. Ruff?
A. Yes.
Q. It is known to you that at the time in May 1941 Ordnance Master General -- or rather, who was the Ordnance Master General in 1941? Was it the defendant or Udet?
A. I cannot recall that because I do not remember the date at which Udet died because that is when the transfer happened.
Q. If I tell you that that was in November 1941 that Udet died, would you remember then what office had ordered that?
A. I believe this must have come from the office of Udet.
Q. Didn't it strike you that Rascher, who was an officer of the Luftwaffe, always sent his report to Himmler only and that only Himmler gave the permission to report to you and that Himmler was the one that gave the decorations to his comrades, and not you?
A. I didn't know of reports. I neither knew of reports from Rascher to Himmler, of which I just heard here during my captivity, or of anything concerning decorations of Rascher in this field.
Q. Witness, on 20 May 1942, or early in June 1942, when Rascher was at your office and told you that he could not give you any further detailed reports because he had to have Himmler's permission in order to do that, weren't you surprised?
A. I could understand that Himmler had to have these reports first for the very simple reason that the supervision of these experiments was in Himmler's hands and that Rascher was under his supervision. Of course, then I could understand that Himmler had the right to get the reports first.
Q. Witness, were you not under the impression that Rascher felt rather like an SS member, or did he feel like a member of the Luftwaffe?
A. I was under the impression that first of all he felt himself to be an SS member and only in second place a Luftwaffe member, because of the war.
Q. Witness, I shall come back to the DVL. Is it correct that this institute was an incorporated organization of the Citizen Law?
Were Dr. Ruff and Dr. Romberg the sanitary officers, or were they civilian 832 a doctors?
A. They were both civilian doctors.
Q. In other words, they did not have any disciplinary powers, did they?
A. No. Dr. Ruff was a flight captain.
Q. Apart from Dr. Ruff and Rascher, did anybody else report to you concerning these high altitude experiments? Did Dr. Weltz or Dr. Romberg, for instance?
A. No. I received the written report via Milch which was addressed to Himmler.
Q. Did you ever ask Milch for his permission on if and where you were to use the high altitude chamber or the low pressure chamber?
A. No, I cannot remember that. Such questions were mentioned during the current oral reports. For instance, that the low pressure chamber was used in the Grossglockner Gebiet.
Q. But you were the only one to make a decision, were you not?
A. For the low pressure chambers which were under our direct supervision, yes; because if they were assigned to somebody else, then he had the supervision over them.
Q. There is a statement here where it says that Milch had direct discussions with Himmler concerning these experiments, without asking the sanitary inspection, and apparently ordered the experiments. Have you heard of such a thing?
A. No, I never received an order. I only remember the second request of Wolf, and that was more of a directive, and we considered it as a directive.
Q. Between Himmler and Milch himself?
A. No, I know nothing of the sort.
Q. Then I shall refer to the letter of 25 November. Was there an objective doctor between Milch and Himmler as liaison man? Was there such a doctor?
A. No, he wanted to show that way that he was against Milch's activities, and also against Holzlochner, and perhaps also against Weltz, and that he would rather have somebody else, another doctor rather than those mentioned.
Q. Do you know that Dr. Ruff himself tried out altitudes up to 17 kilometers before the experiments had been started?
A. Yes. In single experiments, yes.
Q. Do you know Goering?
A. Yes, I know him from sight.
Q. Did you ever receive direct orders from him concerning these experiments, or what kind of official business did you have with him?
A. I was never up for an oral report before Goering, in spite of my attempts. Perhaps the reason was that Goering did not like me, which I could realize from the fact that there were many little things. He always disregarded me. Only once was I asked to come and see him during my whole activity, but I believe that this has no bearing on the case.
Q. It has nothing to do with the experiments?
A. It has nothing to do with the experiments, and at that time I did not ever see Goering, although I asked to. He was not very nice to me, and I understood that he did not want to have anything to do with me.
Q. Witness, within the frame of the sea-distress experiments, there were also dry freezing experiments, in which naked people were put outside all night long in winter. Did such experiments have anything to do with sea-distress experiments?
A. No. Sea-distress only referred to exposure to cold water in normal airman's suit. I never heard anything concerning these other experiments; I heard about them here for the first time.
Q. You never gave an order to carry out these experiments?
A. No. This would not have touched my field of work or activity anyway.
Q. Then, I have a last question to you. Witness, how was your official position to the defendant? Did it rest on mutual trust or distrust?
A. I had a feeling of trust for the defendant, because he was the man who gave me the best support in all my questions and who could understand me best.
DR. BERGOLD: I am through with the witness, and he is now at the disposal of the Prosecution for cross examination.
MR. DENNY: Your Honors; I wonder if we could have a few moments' recess before I start on cross examination?
THE PRESIDENT: You would like to?
MR. DENNY: Could we, if Your Honors please?
THE PRESIDENT: Ten minutes?
MR. DENNY: Yes, sir.
THE MARSHALL: This Tribunal, is recessed for ten minutes.
(A recess was taken)