Q But watching prisoners of war was not their task?
A No, it was not.
Q Do you know the term "Slacker"? (Bummolanten)
A Yes, they were German or foreign workers; I recall that at one of the meetings, the questions of bummolanten, slackers, was very thoroughly discussed. There were some difficulties at the time because of the current fluctuations among the workers.
THE PRESIDENT: Now the question was, what does the word "slacker" mean, and he starts out on a long story about somebody holding a meeting.
965a
DR. BERGOLD: He wanted to explain that was where he heard the term for the first time.
THE PRESIDENT: You did not ask him that.
DR. BERGQLD: Quite right. That is a German characteristic, never to answer a question direct. It unfortunately is a German mistake, and I can not change it.
THE PRESIDENT: Then we concede it is a bad habit.
DR. BERGOLD: It is probably a different kind of an attitude which you take towards the question in Germany, and which you think of differently in America. He merely do it differently in Germany. It is a national difference. I don't wish to decide whether it is better of verse.
THE PRESIDENT: Neither do I, but I think we will just fellow the American order, whether it is for the better or worse, of requiring an answer to the question directly.
BY DR. BERGOLD: Witness, would you please be mere specific?
A Yes, between the terms of "slacker" and "loafer", the leafer means people who had been under duty to work for a long time, and wanted to return to their families, of course, and, therefore, used opportunity to run away without permission, and certainly guarded against that on the other hand to provide the work near his family. The term "slacker" were those who did not like to work, who tried to change their place of work, to get an increase of ration tickets and food supplies, and thereby, to get easier terms of living.
Q Thank you. Were those German workers, or foreign ones?
A These were Germans. Both categories.
Q Did they take any measures against such people, or did they hand them over to Himmler, to place them into a concentration camp?
A I could not say anything about this. It is not within my memory any more.
Q. In your opinion was Milch in a position to hang or shoot foreign workers who did not appear for work, or have cruelties inflicted upon them?
A. No.
Q. Or the transfer to a concentration camp?
A. No.
Q. In the German Aircraft Industry, in the last year of the war, were there many cases of sabotage or espionage, or any sabotage eases at all?
966 A
A. In the industry itself, espionage occurred only in a very small measure. I myself only remember very few important cases of sabotage which in my opinion occurred early in 1944. For the rest not one case of sabotage was known to me which might have endangered the production program.
Q. Witness, is it right that when factories were bombed, the foreign workers voluntarily aided to combat the fires?
A. Yes, I recall reports submitted by the firms which stated that the foreigners had volunteered their help in saving the equipment --- the firms stressed this help.
Q. Do you know that at the time the Jaegerstab was founded, Milch made a statement that because of his nervous complaint he wanted to retire as soon as possible from his office?
A. This statement is not known to me because I was travelling when the Jaegerstab was founded.
Q. Witness, in the exhibit we find the expression of planning --central planning, planning office of the GL, planning office of the Armament Ministry; now were they identical with each other?
A. No, these offices had nothing to do with each other.
Q. Were they not subordinate to the same command?
A. No, they were offices of a completely different --of completely different designations, and they were not part of the Air Ministry.
Q. Can you tell me who ordered that certain factories should be transferred underground; did Milch order this, or somebody else?
A. No, the GL so far as I recall it was in no position to issue such an order. I am not quite clear whether this order was issued by Goering, or by Hitler.
Q. Do you know Mich's attitude towards this?
A. I believe that it was discussed to the effect that a great number of workers is needed, which should be used for protection purposes.
Q. Do you know if the GL recruited foreign workers in occupied territories?
A. The GL himself had no permission to recruit foreign workers.
Q. Were you a member of the Jaegerstab?
A. I was ordered by Field Marshall Milch to take part in conferences of the Jaegerstab in order to report to him about them.
Q. Did the Jaegerstab have authority to recruit foreign workers in occupied territories?
A. The question in this form I can not answer. The situation was such that the Jaegerstab consisted of members of various offices, and these representatives had to execute in their offices the decisions of the Jaegerstab, or, if the execution was not possible, had to give a sound reason why.
Q. Did the Jaegerstab unanimously decide upon the recruiting of foreign workers?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Is it right to say that before the Jaegerstab was founded, the Air Armament was at a disadvantage in the whole framework?
A. Yes.
Q. Thank you very much. There is a teletype letter of Goering's here in which he applied to Himmler for concentration camp workers. He wrote it on 14 February 1944; do you know of that letter?
A. No, I don't know of the letter.
Q. The Contral Planning Board once gave to the Jaegerstab an extra allocation of steel plate arms. Was that for airplane production, or for construction for O.T.
A. I don't know of that particular allocation but the O. T. does not use steel plates for construction. It can only have been used for aircraft purposes.
Q. Do you know when the GL began to transfer certain armament works to the overground?
A. This overground transfer started very early, before the GL was in office even. It was taken into consideration right away when industry-planning began.
Q. I come back once more to the Jaegerstab. Did the Jaegerstab have to supervise the building for the SS ******* and the SD, or did the Jaegerstab say who should move into the building?
A. I don't think the Jaegerstab had the supervision of the building. It could, however, decide who should move in.
Q. Do you know whether Herr Stobbee-Detleffsen was a member of the Jaegerstab?
A. I think he was.
Q. What was his task?
A. I could not say at the moment. I should think this over.
Q. Building companies of the Luftwaffe are sometimes mentioned. Are these foreign workers or German soldier companies?
A. The building companies were always German soldiers.
Q. Can you recall whether Milch asked Hitler for miners from Bertesgaden for building purposes?
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you know whether when Hitler had things built in Berchtesgaden foreign workers or Germans only were employed there?
A. I know nothing about this.
Q. Sauckel once gave an estimate. He said that of 5,000,000 workers only 200,000 had come to Germany voluntarily. Do you think that that estimate is correct, or how high would you estimate the figure should be concerning voluntary workers?
A. An estimate is very difficult because these workers were not sent to Germany only for the Luftwaffe but for all sorts of armament. In any case, the figure in my opinion was not very high.
Q. What do you mean not very high? Were they 200,000 or were they more in your opinion?
A. I do not wish to pass any judgment here because I do not know.
Q. Can you describe relations between Goering and Milch?
A. The relations were not very good. There were frequent conflicts. I said before now on the trip to Berchtesgaden there was an argument.
Q. What attitude did Milch take toward his small employees?
A. Milch's attitude was very good. Milch was always nice to his small employees end if they were in difficulties he helped. them.
DR. BERGOLD: For the time being I have no further questions of this witness.
THE. PRESIDENT: The prosecution may cross examine.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. Witness, Dr. Bergold asked you about a film that was shown in the Air Ministry in Berlin which you saw. Do you recall that?
A. I did not understand the question.
Q. Do you remember Dr. Bergold asking you about a movie which you saw in the Air Ministry in Berlin?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. How long did the movie last?
A. I should say ten minutes or a quarter of an hour.
Q. Ten minutes or a quarter of an hour. Could it have been longer?
A. That is how I estimate it at the moment. After such a long time I cannot commit myself.
Q. Did they have a lecture after the movie was over?
A. No.
Q. Was it a talking moving picture? Did it have a sound track with it?
A. As far as I recall, it was not a talking picture.
Q. In other words, it was a silent film?
A. Yes. At any rate, I believe so.
Q. So, you saw a movie that lasted fifteen minutes, and there was no lecture afterwards, and it was silent. Was there any lecture before the movie?
A. No.
Q. Did you talk to anybody about the movie before you went to see it?
A. At the end we were told briefly, as I said before, that the experimental person was a prisoner who, because of heavy crimes, volunteered in order to save his life. That was all.
Q. And you went in and stayed ten or fifteen minutes end saw a movie and then came out, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember telling the Court that after 35 or 40 minutes the person who was the experimental subject was normal?
A. Yes. That was the greatest duration of the experiment. The film, of course, was interrupted at times in order to press the pictures together.
Q. Or in order to take some out.
A. Take out? No. I saw distinctly that the person experimented on was alive when reaching the ground.
Q. How was the man dressed in the picture?
A. I cannot describe the uniform. I don't know what nation he belonged to. It was a suit which had no insignia on it and which did not point to any particular nation.
Q. Was it a military uniform?
A. It was some sort of uniform, a kind of working uniform.
Q. Do you recall who was at the meeting other than yourself?
A. What meeting are you referring to?
Q. Where you saw the movie.
A. Do you mean the meeting while the film was being shown? There was no such meeting.
Q. Did you go in there alone to see it?
A. No, I said before that at regular intervals films of a secret content or of a technical nature were shown and a certain circle was asked to take part, and that was the sort of film on that occasion.
Q. Well, who were the certain circle of persons who were asked to take part?
A. That circle of persons was usually the same.
Q. Who were the circle of persons? If they were the same ones, you ought to remember them.
A. Yes.
Q. You told Dr. Bergold that you couldn't. You can tell us who they were.
A. I can recall that Colonel Pendele was one of them and Colonel Angermund. They were both adjutants. I came in when the film was just starting. It was dark and I cannot recall the other persons right now.
Q. Well, if they were the same people who went to all of these films, you must have at sometime been in there when it was not dark, so who were they? You can remember Pendele and Angermund. Who else?
A. The state of affairs was such that a certain circle of persons was admitted to these films. It is obvious that they did not all turn up. The number of people present changed. People who had nothing else to do usually attended. What I meant before by saying that the participants were always the same was that the circle of persons who were allowed to take part - that was a definite rule.
Q. Were any SS people there?
A. No.
Q. All Luftwaffe people?
A. They were all films that were shown within a small circle of the Luftwaffe.
Q. Answer the question, witness. I said were they all Luftwaffe people who were there. You talk to me about films. Don't do that. Were they all Luftwaffe people?
A. I saw only Luftwaffe people.
Q. Did you ever see the defendant at any of these films?
A. I think I saw him once during a technical film but not at the film being referred to. He certainly was not present then.
Q Now that wasn't very technical, was it?
A No
Q You said, I believe, at the beginning, that you were a general engineer; at least that's what came through the -
A Yes.
Q Are you a graduate engineer?
A Yes.
Q And are you a professional soldier?
A I am a professional soldier; yes.
Q How long have you been in the army?
A I was with tho Luftwaffe from -- Should I give my military career?
Q Well, no. No; I don't want you to go into that. Just toll me when you went in the army. What year?
A In the last war I was an infantry officer -
Q Will you just answer the question? What year did you enter the Army? It must be 19 hundred and something.
A I was first a technical employee of the army and then later with the technical office of the Air Ministry, and when the engineer corps of the Luftwaffe was founded, in 1936, I was taken into the engineer corps.
Q That's all I wanted to know. In 1936 you entered the army; is that right as a soldier?
A Yes.
Q How did you find out that these people in the movie were people who were very bad criminals?
A That was explained to us, briefly, at tho end of the film, as I said before.
Q Now, you visited some of these plants in connection with the Generalluftzeugmeisterwerke, and you said that everybody was happy there; were there foreign workers in some of the plants you were in?
A Yes.
Q They were all happy?
A Yes; they were happy.
Q Where did they live?
A They lived in huts. They were accomodated in huts; some of them in firm stone buildings.
Q Did they have any guards around them?
A I never saw any guards.
Q And when did you first find out that concentration camp laborers were being used in aircraft factories? Was that in March 1944?
A I was then on an official trip to increase fighter production.
Q Now, just answer the question. I asked you when the date was? Was it in March 1944 that you -
A Yes; that was in March 1944.
Q In March 1944 you first found out that concentration camp inmates were being employed in the air armament factories?
A Yes.
Q And you didn't report this to the defendant?
A No, because then, when I returned in May -
Q You've already told us that the reason you didn't was because there was a change. The only thing I'm asking you is to confirm what you said. You did not report it to the defendant?
A No.
Q And, so far as you know, the defendant never know anything about concentration camp inmates being employed in Luftwaffe factories, or air armament factories?
A I cannot say that, of course.
Q Well, do you know that he did know that they employed concentration camp inmates?
A No; that I didn't know .
Q He never told you: "Haertel, we have down here a certain number of concentration came inmates", did he?
A No.
*---*
Q And you never heard him talk to any body also about concentration camp inmates?
A No.
Q And you never heard the defendant say anything about turning any kind of workers over to Himmler?
A No. I never heard anything about that.
Q You never heard of the SD handling workers, any kind of workers?
A I never heard anything about the SD.
Q Did you know what it was?
A Oh, yes.
Q They were some of Himmler's characters; were they not.
A Oh, yes that is well known.
Q And I believe you said that in the Generalluftzeugmeister meetings they never discussed labor?
A Oh, yes; workers were discussed, of course.
Q Well, what did they say about them, when they talked about then?
Did they talk about foreign workers?
A. In the first place, the figures were important to us, not what type of workers we were getting; whether they were foreign or were German.
Q. Well, then you never discussed foreign workers there. You just discussed figures?
A. Yes, we discussed figures quite independent of the type of the worker.
Q. You never discussed foreign workers, you discussed figures.
A. Well naturally, we were told that we have so and so many foreign workers but requests were always figures, and never type of workers.
Q. So then you know that you did have some foreign workers?
A. We did not request foreign workers. We did not apply for foreign workers. We only drew up figures of our needs and sent it on to Sauckel. What we were given was outside of our influence.
Q. I asked you whether or not you know that you had foreign workers, and I'm still waiting for an answer.
A. Foreign workers were used in the air armament; yes.
Q. So far as you know they were all volunteers.
A. I did not say so. Where the workers came from, whether they were volunteers or not, was not know to us.
Q. Well did it ever occur to you that perhaps you might have some forced laborers there?
A. It was not known to me. I never paid any attention to it.
Q. You stated that the defendant thought that the war was lost. When did he thinks the war was lost?
A. He did not say that; that the war was lost. I said before that he attempted to make such hint, and that very undirectly, he dropped small hints which showed his opinion.
Q. Well, you picked the small hints up and pieced them together, and figured out that the defendant thought the war was last. Now when did you came to that conclusion?
A. I cannot of course, give that precisely here, but after Stalingrad the first misgivings occurred.
Q. When was Stalingrad?
A. Well Winter 1942 and 1943.
Q. About the Russians who were used in the anti-aircraft; on gun batteries; how many of them were used to you knowledge?
A. I do not know about this because it was not our field of duties.
Q. Well; did you ever see any of them in a gun battery?
A. I was never allowed to enter a anti-aircraft position. We had no permission to do that.
Q. You said that the defendant ordered you to attend the Jaegerstab meetings and to report to him?
A. Yes.
Q. How many of the Jagerstab meetings did you attend?
A. Roughly, I should say I attended 90 percent of the meetings, with the exception of these held in March and the beginning of May 1944--during that time, I was on a journey.
Q. Did you ever see the defendant there?
A. Very rarely at the most four or five times.
Q. So you went to 90 percent of the meetings and-
A. Yes Q. --you saw him there four or five times?
A. Yes.
MR. DENNEY: I have no more questions, Your Honors.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q You said just now that from March to May you didn't take part in the meetings.
A Yes, from the beginning of March up to the beginning of May; only after that.
Q Only after that?
A Yes.
Q One more question: did you report about the film to Milch?
A No.
DR. BERGOLD: No further questions.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q Referring to the film that you saw; was the subject either Dr. Rancher or Dr. Romberg?
A I don't know either of these people.
Q You say the defendant Milch threatened to shoot and kill you?
A Yes, he said so quite frequently; he threatened that quite often in discussions.
Q Do you know about him saying that he was going to have to kill two Russian officers who escaped?
A Russian officers? I know nothing of this incident.
Q You never heard of that?
A No.
Q Did you know that Polish and Russian foreigners worked in the air armament plants?
A Russian workers did work in our armament factories Yes.
Q Do you know of any of then being killed?
A I don't know of one single case.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: That is all.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Do you speak Russian, Polish or Rumanian?
A I speak a little Russian.
Q Do you understand these languages?
A Yes, a little.
Q But none of the workers ever stopped you and complained that they were not being fed or cared for?
A No.
Q What do you think would have happened had one done so?
A The members of the firm would have taken proper measures on the basis of the complaints.
Q Proper measures.
AAny bad management would have been immediately stopped.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Bergold, have you any other witnesses now except the witness Eschenauer?
DR. BERGOLD: Eschenauer tomorrow, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: That will be the last one until the defendants in Trial No. 1 are produced?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes. Tomorrow I shall read from my document book about two, which will take a little time.
THE PRESIDENT: And you will call Eschenauer as a witness?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you please have the witness ready the first thing in the morning?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, I will.
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess until that time.
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal No. II will recess until 0930 13 February 1947.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 13 February 1947, at 0930 hours.)
Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 13 February 1947, 0930, Justice Toms presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal 2. Military Tribunal 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the court.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Court, I have, first of all, a technical question. You told me that tomorrow and Monday the defendants from case number one may be called. May I call them in a sequence as I think fit or has Court Number One made a ruling as to the sequence?
THE PRESIDENT: Court Number One will not be in session and you are at liberty to call the defendants in whatever order you wish.
DR. BERGOLD: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: I remind you, Dr. Bergold, that the Defense Information Center must be informed of this.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, only I didn't know whether the order was left to me or whether there was a ruling.
THE PRESIDENT: You may choose your own order. Be sure to notify the Defense Information Center.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes. Good. I now ask permission to call the witness Eschenauer.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will summon the witness Eschenauer.
ARTUR ESCHENAUER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Witness, you will raise your right hand and then repeat after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, would you please reply to my questions slowly so that the translators can follow you? Also, would, you please pause after each question put to you so that the translators can finish translating my question?
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honor please, the witness has just taken papers from his pocket and put them on the desk there. I suggest that he testify from him memory and not from something that he has written up or that someone may have written up for him.
THE PRESIDENT: The Court has no knowledge of what the papers contain. If the witness uses them --
MR. DENNEY: The witness has now put them away.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honors, in Germany you are usually allowed to note down brief words.
THE PRESIDENT: There is nothing of object to nor rule upon yet.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, will you give us your Christian name end second name?
A. Artur Eschenauer.
Q. When were you born?
A. January 23, 1906.
Q. Please remember to pause. Don't start at once. What was your last position in the German Wehrmacht?
A. I was a colonel, and in the last five weeks I led the liaison staff SU.
Q. Please explain the initials "SU". We are not familiar with these military initials.
A. After the occupation of Germany a liaison staff of the Quartermaster General in the Northern Area was formed.
Q. Since when were you active with the Quartermaster General?
A. From 1 April 1941 up to the capitulation I was subordinate to the Quartermaster General.
Q. Do you know the defendant Milch?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Can you see him in the Court? Will you please point him out to (The witness complied.)
DR. BERGOLD: Please out on the record that the witness recognized the defendant.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will so show.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, in your position with the Quartermaster General were you a subordinate of Milch?
A. No, I was never his immediate subordinate.
Q. Did the Quartermaster General - was he subordinate of Milch?
A. No, he was not of Milch either.
Q. To whom was the Quartermaster General a subordinate?
A. He was under the chief of the General Staff of the Luftwaffe and was his subordinate.
Q. And to whom was the Chief of the General Staff of the Luftwaffe subordinate?
A. He was subordinate immediately to Goering.
Q. You could say, therefore, you had no subordinate relations, as it were, to Milch?
A. Never.
Q. Witness, can you tell us from when and where Milch was concerned with the armament in the war?
A. Milch took over after the death of Udet. He took over concerns of the GL. That was in November 1941.
Q. In your own office with the Quartermaster General did you have official relations with him?
A. Yes, that was because of the whole manner of my activities which led to intimate official cooperation between the General and myself.
Q. Will you please describe to us what these official relations were?
A. My field of tasks comprised questions of armaments and equipment of the Luftwaffe. The office requested war equipment for aircraft and instruments for the ground services - it was the General Staff of the Luftwaffe. The applying office was the GL. This shows the necessity for a mutual official contact.
Q. Do you know when Milch resigned from these armament tasks?
A. Yes. The beginning of this occurred when the Jaegerstab was founded. He finally resigned as far as I know in June. The beginning of his resignation goes back further and was known to us outsiders from about April or the beginning of May.
Q. You said with the foundation of the Jaegerstab Milch's resignation started. Will you please explain that opinion?