Q And when you talked about it later with Hippke, you discussed the fact that concentration camp inmates would be used?
A Yes.
Q And did he tell you that he had misgivings about them? He wanted to be sure that people were used who have been condemned to death?
A We talked regarding the entire question of the use of prisoners. He told me, on this occasion, that regarding the question of using prisoners, he, roughly at the beginning of 1941, had talked this over with Weltz, Rascher and Rottenhoff in Munich; and on this occasion, he stated his basic approval of this procedure on the condition that exclusively serious criminals should be used who were involved for these experiments.
Q In this talk with Hippke, it was shortly after you talked with Weltz, either late in '41 or early in '42?
A Yes, in connection with that talk with Weltz.
Q when did you first go to Dachau in connection with these experiments?
A I think that was in the end of January or the beginning of February 1942; again, not very long after the talk with Professor Hippke.
Q And when did the experiments start?
AAt the end of February or the beginning of March.
Q Whom did you see when you went down to Dachau the first time either at the end of January or the beginning of February '42?
A I was in Dachau at the same time as my collaborator Romberg, with Weltz, Rascher and two officers of the SS of the Camp,Dachau took part in the conversations.
Q Did you see any of the experimental subjects at that time?
A I was there for the first time, no.
Q. And you had this meeting there with two SS Officers, Romberg, Rascher, Weltz , and you discussed the experiments?
A. We did not discuss tho experiments themselves in detail. The officers in the camp were interested only in what was going to be done in a broad outline and just what tho danger was that was involved in this experiment. It was a relatively short talk which concerned itself essentially with the technical pre-requisites for the experiment; how much electric current, what accommodations,rooms, and so on.
Q. And who ordered the low-pressure chamber down to Dachau?
A. Who brought it down or who gave the order? Which do you mean?
Q. Who ordered tho chamber to be brought to Dachau?
A. Who ordered the chamber to be brought to Dachau?
Q. The low-pressure chamber, which before the experiments was in the DVL, was brought by myself to Dachau with the help of transport workers of the DVL , after I had received Hippke's authorization.
Q. So Hippke ordered that it be brought down and you brought it down with some other people?
A. Hippke gave mo the authorization to take the chamber to Dachau.
Q. And after that, did you go back to Dachau again?
A. Subsequently, at one time when the experiments were going on I was in Dachau.
Q. When you first took tho chamber down there, which you say was late in February, did the experiments start right away?
A. So far as I know, they did not begin immediately, But between the time when tho chamber was brought to Dachau and the tine that tho experiments began, there was a short interval.
Q. So you took the chamber to Dachau and then you wont back to Berlin?
A. I myself, did not take the chamber to Dachau, I was net present when it was actually taken there.
Q. Did you, at that time --- you said that you and some SS people 1107(a) brought it from Berlin on Hippke's authorization?
A. No, I didn't say any SS people and myself brought tho chamber to Dachau, I said rather, with the authorization of Hippke, tho chamber was taken by transport workers of the DVL to Dachau.
Q. You didn't have anything to do with moving it down there?
A. I, personally? No.
Q. When did you go back to Dachau then? We have the first visit in January-February '42, then the chamber gets down there, and then when did you got back again?
A. When tho experiments were in their first few weeks I, myself, went to Dachau and inspected the experiments there.
Q. Were tho experiments performed?
A. Yes.
Q. Was anybody killed?
A. No.
Q. When was this that you wont down there to inspect?
A. During tho first weeks during which tho experiments were going on, but I can't tell you precisely when that was.
Q. Was it in March '42?
A. I assume it was, yes.
Q. Did Romberg report to you that some deaths had taken place?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. When did he report that to you first?
A. The end of April or the beginning of May.
Q. How many did he toll you had taken place?
A. One.
Q. And what did you do when he told you that?
A. When Romborg gave no this report that on the occasion of the experiments that Rascher undertook, on his own initiative, ostensibly on Himmler's orders, I discussed with Romborg in great detail, on the basis of the minutes that were kept on our experiment what was to be done. We were in agreement that we should break off 1108(a) these experiments as soon as possible and send the chamber back to Berlin.
I then attempted to r each Hippke, however, he was on an official trip, and then told Romberg, who was going back to Berlin, to end the experiments and to send the chamber back to Berlin.
Q. Hippke was away and you couldn't get in touch with him? Bid you try to get in touch with him again?
A. Shortly after Romberg had gone back to Dachau, I reached Hippke, visited him, and told him of ' what had occurred.
Q. You told him someone had been killed?
A. I told him that there had been a fatality, that in our opinion Rascher was carrying out experiments on his own initiative, the experimental goal of which was not clear to me, that their justification was not clear to me either, and that for this reason I had given orders that our experiments be terminated although they had not gone as far as we really wanted them to, and that we had seen to it that the chamber was returned from Dachau as soon as possible.
Q. Did you hear about any more deaths down there?
A. Later I heard that there were further death cases down there.
Q. When did you hear that?
A. I heard that, as far as I recall, after the return of the chamber after Romberg's return.
Q. Did Romberg tell you within a week or two after he had made his first trip to tell you of the initial fatality that two more deaths had occurred?
A. He did tell me of two further fatalities. This he told me after the chamber was returned to Berlin, and as far as I can recall the time today, it was three or four or five days after the chamber was returned that he called me up and informed me that we were finished and that the drivers could fetch the chamber, and on this occasion, as far as I can still recall today, he then informed me that Rascher had made two further experiments but he told me no details.
Q. He did not tell you that anybody died?
A. No, he could do that only with difficulty over the telephone.
Q. Afraid somebody might be listening from the SS?
A. Yes, that would have been a possibility.
Q. So, you only heard about one death then?
A. At first only of one, and then later of two further ones.
Q. When did he tell you about these two further deaths, just at the time that he told you that the experiments were concluded?
A. As I said, when he returned with the chamber he told me about the fatalities.
Q. When was it? What month?
A. In May.
Q. May of 1942. Did you tell Hippke about these?
A. At the beginning of June I visited Hippke again, and we spoke of the chamber and of Rascher's experiments once more. For this reason, namely, because at this discussion there was a letter from the SS, namely from General of the Waffen-SS Wolf in which this man demanded or requested that the chamber be left for a longer time in Dachau; on this occasion I told Hippke that, in addition to this one case cf which I had informed him, Rascher, as far a.s we knew, had in addition carried on a whole series of experiments. We did know that for certain that he had carried on individual experiments, but we assumed that he did not stop with these individual experiments but carried on many others.
Q. Well, the chain cf command was Hippke, Ruff, Romberg, Rascher, was it not?
A. The military chain of command? Is that what you mean? That is not entirely correct, what you said.
Q. Well, you tell me what is correct then. Tell me what the chain of command was.
A. There was one via Hippke. Hippke as Medical Inspector of the Luftwaffe was Rascher's highest superior in his capacity as a Luftwaffe officer. This chain of command, as far as I could judge, was not direct but via a Luftgau command on the Weltz's institute and then to Rascher, but I should like to emphasize here that my knowledge cf the military chain of command within the Medical Inspectorate of the Luftwaffe is not absolutely certain, but that is my notion of what that chain of command was.
Q. Well, you could certainly tell Romberg what to do, couldn't you?
A. I? Romberg was my subordinate, yes.
Q. And you reported to Hippke, didn't you?
A. I reported to Hippke, yes, but between me and Hippke was no military chain of command.
Q. You were not actually in the army were you? Haven't you always said that you were a civilian during all this?
A. Yes.
Q. But you worked for the Laftwaffe?
A. He worked for the Luftwaffe and for civilian aeronautical societies, For industry and such.
Q. As far as the Luftwaffe was concerned, anything that you had to do it if you would go to see Hippke; wouldn't you?
A. Not entirely, no.
Q. Whom would you see?
A. That depended.
Q. Well, about the high altitude experiments; whom would you go to see?
A. In the high altitude experiments I went to Hippke for the following reasons: The portable low pressure chamber that had to be used for these purposes belonged to the Medical Inspectorate. Consequently; for these experiments I had to apply to Hippke for the use of this chamber. In addition these experiments were a collaboration between one of my co-workers with a.scientist who was not directly but indirectly subordinated to Hippke. It was of course; understood that in such matters I had to go to Hippke to inform him of what was being planned.
Q. So he was the responsible person directly above you as far as the Luftwaffe was concerned in these experiments; wasn't he?
A. Hippke was in my opinion and as far as I could judge the chain of command was indirectly at least responsible for Stabsartz of the Luftweffe Rascher, but I already said that the chain of command was not known to me in such detail as to permit me to assert this with certainty.
Q. Do you remember being interrogated on 22 October 1946?
A. I was interrogated at the end of 1946. Whether it was on 22 October I no longer recall.
Q. You were asked this question? "The high altitude experiments were ordered by the following channels of command". It is in reverse order; of course; that they are said here. "Romberg; Ruff, Hippke; Milch." Do you remember when you were asked that by Captain Koff?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you remember what you answered to it?
A. I presume that the answer was yes, but on Friday while being interrogated by Mich's Counsel I was told that opinion of mine at that time was erroneous.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Denney, is the interrogation from which you just read in evidence?
MR DENNEY: No, Your honor, it is not. We plan to offer it at a later time, I am just probing his power to recollect.
BY MR DENNEY:
Q. Did you order any other steps to be taken with reference to Rascher after these deaths were reported to you?
A. No, I did not.
Q. So you knew that some people had died and you didn't do anything about it.
A. No.
Q. Do you know how many experiments were carried out down there?
A. You mean in numbers? No.
Q. Do you know how many experimental subjects they had?
A. Yes.
Q. How Many?
A. Ten.
Q. Ten? Didn't you tell the Court on Friday that they had 60?
A. Not I, no. T hat was probably falsely translated.
Q. Don't you remember when you were down in Dachau, going to see these people; you told the Court that you must emphasize "There was no doubt in my mind that these were voluntary persons, that I never asked the specific question, such as 'Did you volunteer,' but that was simply assumed, taken as a matter of course by myself, I asked rather, How many had volunteered for these experiments, and I was told approximately 60."
A. Yes, in that context the number sixty is correct. However, I did not stay on Friday that Rascher told me so.
Q. You didn't say that Rascher told me; I said that.
A. I said that on Friday, I had spoken with the experimental persons because I was interested to know how many had volunteered for these experiments; that is, how many volunteers they had from which to make a choice, and it was on that occasion the number sixty was mentioned to me.
Q. The people were just clamoring to get into the pressure chamber, weren't they?
A. According to what one of the prosecution witnesses said, one really did have the impression that a not inconsiderable number of people wished vigorously to partake in these experiments.
Q. When did the chamber leave Dachau?
A. End of May.
Q. 1942?
A. Yes. 1942.
Q. Do you remember that report that Dr. Bergold showed you the other day? -- In German?
A. From the report Dr. Bergold read something to me on Friday and queried me about it.
Q. This report was made to whom; do you recall?
A. This report was drawn up by Romberg and Rascher, and was sent t o Himmler, Milch, Hippke and individual offices of research and industry which were involved in the planning and construction of security implements; and with, construction of planes that were to climb to very high altitudes.
Q. You signed this report, didn't you?
A. I did, yes.
Q. When you signed it, you knew it was going to be the Reich Fuehrer SS Himmler?
A. When I signed it, I knew that also a copy would of course certainly go to Himmler.
Q. Isn't it addressed to Reich Fuehrer SS? Himmler?
A. Yes, Not the address of the report, but as I remember two or three.
copies of the report were so addressed.
MR DENNEY: Could I have the number of that exhibit?
DR BERGOLD: No. 114
MR DENNEY: If your Honors please, we are discussing Exhibit No. 114, which is the report signed by the defendant, among others, to Himmler concerning high altitude experiments; Prosecution Exhibit No. 114.
Q. That report was made to the SS, wasn't it?
A. No, from this accompanying letter that you just showed me it can be seen that the copy number two, three and four of the report were sent to the Reich Fuehrer SS; that can be seen from the accompanying letter, but it cannot be seen from this letter that the report was made to the SS.
Q. Who is the letter addressed to?
A. The address of such is not addressed at all; there is an accompanying letter with it to the Reich Fuehrer SS.
Q. who got the first copy of the report?
A. I can't say any more, I don't remember.
Q. You had something to do with the forwarding of it, didn't you?
A. I can't recall all the details about where it was sent; I remember that the copy two, three and four were sent to the Reich Fuehrer SS; or rather, I no longer remember that fact, but only through now seeing the document does it become clear that these copies were sent to the Reich Fuehrer SS. I assume that all other copies were sent by the Department in the DVL which printed the report, and which, in general always forwarded or sent out all reports. Why in this particular case we sent the report ourselves, I can no longer say today; I don't know.
Q. When did you write that report; when did you send it forward?
A. 22 September 1942 is the date on the accompanying letter, the report itself is dated 28 July, 1942.
Q. Did you in the report say anything in there about deaths having taken place?
A. No.
Q. Didn't it occur to you to include that information?
A. The fatality that Rascher had, you think they should have been mentioned in the report: Did I understand you correctly?
Q. I am asking you whether it occurred to you -- it doesn't make any difference what I think.
A. No, that idea did not occur to me because those experiments lay outside; these experiments you cannot report on experiments as regard a certain sector included in that report, reports on fatalities or occurrences in an entirely different set of experiments.
Q. What method did they set up in Dachau to determine which of these two sets of experiments that you maintain existed were being worked on? How did any one who was down there know when a man stepped into the chamber, whether or not he was going to be in one of yours or in one of Rascher's
A. How did Romberg know? Is that what you mean?
Q. How did any one know it?
A. Anybody couldn't have known it; the only people who could know were those men who were entrusted with the experiments.
Q. Did they have signs on these experimental subjects; one would come in with a big SS on his chest, and the next one would come with Luftwaffe written on his chest?
A. No, I never heard about it.
Q. Well, I guess the only way anybody knew somebody was just about to die, that this must be one of those SS Experiments outside the scope.
A The director of the experiments knew very well what sort of experimental methodology to be used; in other words, what sort of the low pressure experiments they were treating there, handling their problems. For instance, I cannot carry out any experiments: to clarify the question, what happens to a parachutist when he bails out at high altitude; if in the experiment that is in the low pressure chamber, I keep the experimental person for half an hour at the same altitude, 13 to 15 kilometers; these two things have nothing in common.
Q Would you say then when Romberg was present at the experiment, experiments were certainly being conducted as part of your plan?
A No. When you interrogated me on this subject what Romberg had told me, when he come and told me of the first fatality, I said at that time that Romberg explicitly informed me that Rascher was carrying out experiments outside the framework of our experimental program, allegedly on Himmler's orders. The fact that Romberg was down there has nothing to do rich those experiments of Rascher's.
Q After you told, him to send Rascher away, to stop him, two more people were killed, weren't they?
A. Yes
Q What did you do about that?
A I did not have to do anything at all about that because at the tine I found out about this chamber that it had already been returned from Dachau; the Rascher experiments had already been stopped.
Q The other day when you were questioned about some experiments I believe you mentioned the King of England, George I; is that right?
A Yes, I did.
Q Now, when you were interrogated on the 22nd of October, at the conclusion of your interrogation you were asked this question by Captain Copp. The freezing experiments were Rascher's monopoly, and I assume that Milch and Hippke were kept informed about them. Do you recall that?
A That question was probably asked.
Q You stated, yes Hippke certainly, but I cannot say that to you positively; to judge front the whole nature of the organization, Hippke must have known about it.
A Yes, that could be.
Q Then you were asked, so Hippke knew about it, and with him logically also Milch because ho reported to him directly.
Q You answered yes, that is so.
A Yes.
Q And then you were asked, so you are convinced that Milch was kept informed about the progress of the results of the freezing experiments; do you remember that?
A In detail no, but there was some interrogation in that general direction and probably that question was asked.
Q And you answered, yes, I am convinced of it?
A Yes, that could be.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:Witness, on Friday, I asked you regarding your affidavit in reference to which you were questioned by Mr. Denney, in regard to your statement that there was no doubt that Marshal Milch was informed of these Rascher experience you asked if you had any basis for that statement and you said you had none, that that was only a conjecture; is that correct?
A. Yes, of course, I was asked just now by the prosecution whether these questions were put to me in the interrogation at that time, and whether I at that time gave those answers, and I said that in my answers to those questions I assumed from the entire connection, that Hippke was informed and that he informed Milch also.
Q. But you have no positive basis for this statement?
A. No. From the rest of the context of the Interrogation, I pointed out at the time of the Interrogation that I had no positive basis for my answers.
Q. Witness, you said that after you had heard of the first fatality, you informed Hippke and informed him also as to the measures you had taken to interrupt the high altitude experiments and to bring them to an end and to return the chamber.
A. Yes.
Q. Did Hippke agree to your measures?
A. Yes, very much so. There was a telegram in this discussion from the SS, I do not know from which office, but it was from the SS.
Q. Witness, you stated previously that you discussed the dangers or non-dangers of the experiments you made on yourself at the end of 1941, or the beginning of 1942. What was your opinion as regards the danger of these experiments?
A. I was of the opinion that these experiments were certainly not quite simple and easy experiments. However, on several occasions I stressed that, to the best of human knowledge, death cases would be out of question in those experiments and accordingly I gave a reason for my opinion.
Q. Witness, you further stated before that according to the statement of a prosecution witness, the persons at Dachau were ardently desiring to be experimented upon. Of which witness and of which prosecution do you spear
A. Of the prosecution in this trial and of the witness Mewe who testified that Rascher had been addressed by persons -- while the experiments were being carried out -- asking him to be allowed to take a part in the experiments.
Q. Witness, you s rated before you could not remember clearly why the first, second and third copy of your report had been forwarded to Himmler? In this connection I must ask you: Did you know that Himmler had ordered secrecy with respect to those experiments?
A. Yes, I knew that.
Q. And was that the reason that the copies were sent to Himmler?
A. There were a number of copies sent to other officers, which seemed to contradict that assumption.
Q. You said that you reported to Milch; did you report directly to Milch or did you think that it went to Milch via Himmler?
A. As far as I remember it went through that channel. BY DR. BERGOLD: You have answered my questions. Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you state that Himmler sent a copy of this report to Hippke?
A. No, I was misunderstood. I said that copies of this report were received by Milch and by Hippke. I know only that we personally sent these three copies of the report to Himmler. I also told the Prosecutor that the other copies, if I remember correctly, were not sent cut by us, nor by me, nor by my institute, but that the department of the D.V.L. did the printing and the sending cut of the copies of the report.
THE PRESIDENT: So far as you or the institute were concerned, you sent all of the copies of this report to Himmler?
1119 a
A. Your Honor, I know only that three of these copies of this report were sent by me or my institute to Himmler.
Q. And these are the only copies which you, yourself, sent out?
A. As far as I recall, yes.
Q. If Hippke and Milch received any copies, it was not directly through you?
A. No. In the case of Milch and Hippke, I know that they did each receive one of the three copies of this report which was sent to Himmler; attached copy of this report to Hippke and to Milch and one to Himmler, because later I discussed it with Hippke and we both thought it was a rather unusual and strange path for a report on experiments to take, experiments which were really Luftwaffe experiments, designed to reach those in the Luftwaffe competent for those experiments. But this was demanded by the SS, or Himmler, I assume for that reason to tell Hippke later, "You see, he helped you so much with your problems, your experiments, etc."
Q. But it was the SS or Himmler that ordered that this path be taken?
A. Yes, they did so, so that they would be able to say: "Look how helpful we are being."
Q. You said that you later talked to Hippke about the report and that he told you that ho had received a copy of it?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever talk to Milch and ask him if he had received a copy?
A. No. Neither before nor after did I ever say one word on this matter to him.
Q. You assumed that if Hippke got a copy of the report, that he shewed it to Milch?
A. Yes.
Q. But you do not know that?
A. No, that I do not know.
Q. Did Hippke tell you that he had sent a copy of this report to Milch?
A. No, he didn't tell me that. On the contrary, he told me that he had received his report via Milch.
Q. Hippke told you that he had received the report of these experiments from Milch?
A. Yes, from Milch.
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q. Witness, did you say that you know that two copies went forth, one to Hippke, and one to Milch? Did I understand you so to say?
A. I can't say for sure, but it is quite possible that one and the same copies went first to Milch and then from Milch's office was forwarded to Hippke.
Q. I had understood you to say that individual or separate copies went one to Hippke and one to Milch? That is the way I understood your testimony originally.
A. That, I personally from my knowledge, cannot say. I can assume that, but direct knowledge of the facts, I cannot make that statement.
BY DR. BERGOLD: Your Honor, perhaps I might be permitted to remind you that this matter was covered by Hippke's letter of 25 August, and went to Milch on the Himmler matter and to Milch's office. But this report reached Milch's office on the 31 August, with a request for acknowledgment of receipt.
Q I come now to the experiments themselves. There were a series of experiments, to say, one for the Luftwaffe to ascertain, namely, what happened to parachutists when they bail out at high altitude, and there was a second series in the Rascher series with a goal which was not clear?
A Yes.
Q In the trial against you were there an indication that these two series had nothing to do with each other?
A No, that is not to be said. All those things had been clarified upstairs.
Q Witness, I come now to the question in the meantime which I have found out, something that involves the question that criminals were allowed to be used for dangerous experiments. Is it not true that relatively recent on the occasion of the plague experiments, prisoners were used? Where and when were those carried out?
A The plague experiments were carried out on prisoners shortly prior to the first World War, 1910--1912, in Manila by Professor Strong, now a professor at Harvard University. Professor Strong laid the foundation for all of these experiments for a receptive vaccination against the plague.
MR. BERGOLD: No further questions. No further questions, Your Honor.
MR. DENNEY: No further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal may remove this witness, please.
(Witness excused)
THE PRESIDENT: Before the next witness is called we will take the customary recess.
THE MARSHAL: All persons please rise. This Tribunal is now in recess for fifteen minutes.