Take 4
Q Which were the reasons for Milch's resignation?
A Yes. I simply prefer to formulate it differently. There was unanimity of opinion between Milch and myself on the fact that the Air Armament was to come to me. After Air Armament came to me, there was no task left for Milch in the Air Ministry because it was one of the essential tasks left there. In addition, Goering, it is told, at that time also demanded that on this occasion Milch would withdraw from the Luftwaffe Ministry and from the Service as such altogether.
Q Do you know if at the time the relationship between Goering and Milch was a bad one?
A The relationship between Goering and Milch was known to me from 1942 on as a bad one. Goering did not like to have in his surroundings collaborators who were very strong. He liked it much more to have people who were harmless like Koerner who was the permanent representative of the four-year plan, and Milch was the type of very intelligent and very capable collaborator who, of course, on the other hand, was not so easy to direct as Goering wanted him to be.
Q Yes. Please go ahead.
A Well, furthermore, Goering did not trust the close cooperation with Milch. He asked Milch lots of times to keep a certain distance, which, of course in the sense of the war necessities and tasks would have been a mistake.
Q. Do you know of attempts of Goering at the time to start a trial against Milch because he failed in certain fields?
A. No. Unfortunately I do not know it in that way.
Q. Is it known to you that Milch in the beginning of 1943 explained to Hitler very clearly that the war was over and lost?
A. Yes, indeed. I was not present at that particular meeting. However, Milch told me a few days later that he visited Hitler in order to talk about his work at Stalingrad, and during that particular occasion he told him the impressions he had, and he informed him that the war was lost. Thereupon, according to what Milch says, Hitler is to have been very nervous and he interrupted the conversation light away.
Q. Is it known to you that Milch was a decisive enemy in the war against Russia?
A. No, I did not know that because at that time when I was connected with Milch the war was almost over.
Q. Is it known to you that Milch proposed to Hitler to sign a peace term with the six states, with the occupied territories?
A. Such plans occurred from time to time and they were discussed. I know that Milch was one of the men who was for such plans; I mean he did that with Hitler.
JUDGE MUSSMANO: I would propose, Dr. Bergold, that when you refer to any particular episode if the date is not obvious that you supply at least an approximate date so that we can place it in the chronology of events.
DR. BERGOLD: This also was around 1943. That was in connection with the declaration that the war was lost.
THE WITNESS: That's correct.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Is it known to you that Hitler considered Milch a State enemy towards the end of the war?
A. In February, 1945, I wanted to make Milch my deputy in that particular staff which had been organized at that, time, The Traffic Staff.
Hitler thereupon called me to his headquarters in order to tell me that Milch should in no case be allowed any influence in that particular form and shape.
1182(a) Thereupon I told Hitler that I wanted to know the reasons for his remark, whereupon Hitler did not tell me the reasons.
He told me that he himself had certain material from Kaltenbrunner and that material would absolutely suffice; that, furthermore, Milch should not have such a task or should not execute such a task.
Q. Did you warn Milch of Kaltenbrunner and Hitler?
A. Yes, I did, of course.
Q. After Milch's resignation from the Air Ministry, you asked for a deputy. Why did you do that?
A. In June of 1944 Milch became my constant deputy in the Ministry because Goering asked that Milch resign from the Aviation Ministry, and I did not want Milch to have such a loss of prestige towards the outside, in which position he finally arrived when Milch resigned from his position in those offices, and I didn't want to have that because Milch during the previous years was very loyal towards me on all friction points which occurred from the confidence, and he avoided those points.
Q. Why didn't you want him to be without employment, I mean without office?
A. Yes, without office, because Milch would have been subdued to the attacks of Goering would he not have had a certain job some place or a certain office.
Q. In other words, it was a sort of protective measures of yours, wasn't it?
A. Yes. It appeared important to me that Milch be protected in that particular way although there were no particular symptoms for that.
Q. Did he ever appear practically in that particular position?
A. No. When the announcement of his steady deputy was known, I said the same time that my chiefs of offices were to carry on their duties immediately with me. That is, in other words, directly with me, which in itself meant that Milch was not a steady deputy, a constant deputy.
I remark this particular passage because Milch came to see me after the particular discussion and told me that I shouldn't have put him in such a bad light.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: After your conversation with Hitler regarding him, did you take him into your confidence?
THE WITNESS: I am afraid I didn't quite understand that question.
1183(a) Court No. 2 - Take 4 (BK) Will you repeat it, please?
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You related earlier how Hitler had spoken to you regarding Milch. Was Milch at that time already your deputy?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: And the phrase "state enemy" was used. Now just what do you mean by that phrase?
THE WITNESS: I did not use the word "state enemy".
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Well, it came through the microphone, through the earphone.
THE WITNESS: Well, the word "state fine" was not used during this discussion.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: "State enemy", was that expression not used?
DR. BERGOLD: No. That was only the way I used it. In Germany people against the regime were called "state enemies".
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Well, did Hitler so regard Milch?
THE WITNESS: No, he didn't show that. In other words, he didn't tell me the reasons for feeling that way towards Milch but he was against Milch. He was sort of prejudiced against Milch.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Now, the last question, Mr. witness. Is it correct that your Chief of Office, Sauer, concerning the Traffic Staff meeting reported to Goering personally and not to Milch?
A That is absolutely correct and I am sure that Brauchitsch, who was Goering's adjutant, could confirm that because for the greatest part it happened during my sickness. Sauer at that particular time knew or succeeded in being considered by both Hitler and Goering so that the conferences or sessions which took place with Goering Court No. 2 - Take 4 (BK) concerning the activities of the Jaegerstab or the Fighter Staff often took place without the participation or invitation of Milch, which, of course, put Milch in a bad position and he didn't like it.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Tribunal, for the time being, at least I am through with my questions. However, when the prosecution is through with its questions, I would appreciate it very much if I could put any further 1184 a Court No. 2 - Take 4 (BK) questions forth should it be necessary, following the practice of this Tribunal.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You will be permitted to re-examine if you so wish.
MR. DENNEY: He has got some notes here in German which Dr. Bergold's secretary made the last time that I just want to check.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Yes, certainly.
(A recess was taken.)
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honor please, I have no questions of the witness.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Tribunal, I have only the technical question. These minutes that were taken today, how can they be introduced to the Tribunal? I presume that they have to be signed by Speer.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Oh, no. No. The witness took the oath and the testimony was stenographically recorded so that all you need to do during the trial is to read into the record such portions of the testimony taken today as you regard as relevant and of importance to your case.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, Your Honor. Mr. Denney this morning, however, thought that this had to be translated into the English at first before I can introduce it.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Oh, well, that is obvious. Well you don't need to translate it. We have the English translation.
DR. BERGOLD: Then, of course, we don't have to. I understood Mr. Denney to say, that is, the German records had to be retranslated into English.
MR. DENNEY: Your Honor please, I made no such statement. The only thing I talked to him about was exhibits that we had used, part or all of which we had made available to him in German and if he wants to use an additional part Court No. 2 - Take 4 (BK) of an exhibit in German he has to furnish the Court and us and the stenographers and the interpreters with an English translation of it.
DR. BERGOLD: That was a misunderstanding on my part. I thought Mr. Denney was talking about the examination.
MR. DENNEY: No. I mean because we have an English record now.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: That is the great advantage of having this interrogation here with the entire court machinery functioning.
DR. BERGOLD: Thank you.
1185 a Court No. 2 - Take 4 (BK)
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Dr. Bergold, I will allow you three or four minutes, as much time as reasonably is in order, to glance over your minutes, your records, to make certain that you still don't have something else you want to ask, because it would be well if we could finish it up entirely, you see.
DR. BERGOLD: Indeed, Your Honor. Yes, indeed. I have one further question to the witness, if you don't mind.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q During the examination on Friday, in my records and as far as I can see also in the English records, there was a certain formulation which reads as follows: "The Jaegerstab was formed on the 1st of March 1944 by Milch." I don't believe that is quite correct.
A Yes. That must be a mistake which also occurred in the Central Planning meeting and undoubtedly it should read "Speer".
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, indeed. That is all. I have no further questions.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Now it is clear to you, I suppose, that whatever record you made of the first interrogation may not be introduced in evidence.
DR. BERGOLD: Noin.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: - because it is very fragmentary and incomplete.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, indeed. I don't want to do that anyway. I just wanted to clear that matter up because there was sort of a discussion a few minutes ago. Thank you very much, Your Honor. That is all. That is all.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Very well.
(The court adjourned at 1445 hours.)
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Court, in view of this surprising conclusion of this matter, I have nothing to report to you at the moment. I have asked one or two witnesses for tomorrow. One of them will come back to Nurnberg this afternoon, Colonel Pendele. The other one is witness Wolff, who has not been asked and whom I haven't seen yet. Perhaps Mr. Denney can help me. He said the other day that he wanted to read something into the record.
May it please the Court, there is one question which should be debated as I remember right now. On Page 8 of Speer's interrogation there is a mistake which does not make sense -- on Page 8. That is in Speer's answer in roughly the middle of his big answer where Speer says there: "The first category: Milch had given me plenipotentiary powers from 1942 on to carry the liaison between workers and soldiers." I see that in the English translation it is correctly stated with the word "Hitler." In the German text by mistake it says "Milch", and I would ask to have it ordered that the German report should be altered to substitute that word "Milch" for the word "Hitler" on that page.
MR. DENNEY: We have no objection, Your Honor. In the German copy the record reads "Milch " which is incorrect. The English copy is correct where it says "Hitler." In Your Honors' book or a copy of the document that is the fourth line of the last answer beginning on Page 8 of the testimony taken before Judge Musmanno on 4 February 1947. The fourth word in that line reads "Hitler" which is proper, and in the German record on Page 8 the version of the testimony taken on the same day, the 14th line of the page, the first word reads "Milch" and it is conceded that the word should be "Hitler."
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, the transcript will be corrected in accordance with the undisputed fact. Now, Mr. Denney, I think this statement did not get on to the record. The transcript will be corrected in accordance with the undisputed fact.
Mr. Denney, Judge Musmanno raises the point that this interpolation now of prosecution material is apt to be confusing, I mean this piece-meal presentation.
In reviewing the Defense testimony, we are suddenly confronted with the Prosecution testimony which is out of order, and it would simplify the problem of the Tribunal if you will withhold the material you are about to offer until the Defense has rested its case. It does save a few minutes, but it adds confusion which isn't time-saving.
MR. DENNEY: As Your Honor pleases.
THE PRESIDENT: You won't have any testimony ready to submit this afternoon, Dr. Bergold?
DR. BERGOLD: No, I have not.
THE PRESIDENT: But you will have tomorrow morning?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, tomorrow morning.
MR. DENNEY: If I could find out who his witnesses are going to be -- Colonel Pendele, I take it, and former SS Obergruppenfuehrer Wolff.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Those witnesses are here in Nurnberg?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, the Tribunal will hear them tomorrow morning at 9:30. I would like the Counsel for both sides to see me after the recess if you please, Dr. Bergold and Mr. Denney.
The Court will now recess.
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal is now in recess until 0930 tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 0930 hours, 18 February 1947.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal No. 2 is again in session.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Court, may I call the witness, Max Koenig?
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, please bring the witness, Max Koenig, into the court room.
JUDGE SPEIGHT: Witness, raise your right hand and repeat after me:
"I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing."
(The witness repeated the oath)
JUDGE SPEIGHT: You may be seated.
WITNESS: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Will you please give the Court your first name and second name?
A Max Koenig.
Q When were your born?
A 19 August, 1897.
Q What was your last position in the war with the Wehrmacht?
A Oberstleutnant in the Reserve.
Q And where were you?
A With the Commander of the Luftwaffe in Rechlin in charge of the testing station.
Q It is known to you, witness, whether and what sort of orders, if at all, Milch gave with reference to the treatment of so-called terror pilots?
A My department was subordinate to the G L, and, therefore, received orders from that office concerning the treatment of pilots who had made emergency landings, and such orders were to the effect to inform the Burgenmeister and the Councillors that the prisoners who had made emergency landings should be sent to Oberursel at once.
Q Then were these orders given or wore they repeated in certain cases?
A. I myself vent there in 1942 to that office and I remember very well that the first orders in this respect were given in 1943 and then in 1944.
Q. Have these orders provided for the taking of prisoner of all pilots by the Luftwaffe and taking them to Oberursel?
A. The G L ordered, followed by the threatening of heavy punishment, if the orders were not obeyed, that all pilots who bailed out or made emergency landings, should be taken at once in the quickest way possible to Oberursel.
Q. Did you transmit these orders to the Mayors and Councillors of your District?
A. These orders were passed on by the Commander of the testing station to the ground organization of the base, passed on to all Burgermeisters and the City Councillors.
Q. Can you confirm that these orders came from Milch?
A. They came from the G L. It was even ordered how we should proceed. As far as I can recall we were ordered, among other things, that the contents of their pockets should be taken away from the pilots and sent to Uberursel with an accompanying letter.
Q. Witness, did you know at that time that the Party wanted the pilots to be treated in a different manner?
A. I did not know that for we in Rechlin had hardly any contact with the Party.
Q. Therefore, you never corrected orders from the Party? Or would you have done this?
A. No, we were subordinate to the G L, and, therefore, we could only take orders from that superior office.
Q. Witness, what do you know within your office as to how concentration camp inmates were treated?
A. I should say this: When labor was requested for the building of a pill box, we were given a detachment from Oranienburg. These prisoners were housed by the evacuating of our testing station, that means our German soldiers, in Lerz, and prisoners from the concentration camp at Oranienburg were moved into the billets of the German soldiers. There were about a thousand of these.
Q. Were the barracks in good condition?
A. I beg your pardon, they were not barracks in the bad sense of the word. They were the best billets which we had at our disposal, in Lerz. They were new buildings and contained, apart from the living rooms, a theatre room, and a big kitchen, with I believe four stoves. I know the camp because I visited it repeatedly.
Q. Witness, what orders did you receive for treating of those people by the GL?
A. I remember two orders that were to the effect that all those who actually worked, whether foreigners or concentration camp inmates, should be treated well in order to save their good health and in order to increase their efficiency.
Q. What has been done for that purpose?
A. As far as their health was concerned, this order saw to it that I obtained medical supplies from the hospital, and dressing material .
Q. What you call the revier - revier is the hospital ward?
A. It is part of my office and is equivalent to a hospital. I must collect myself here. You asked a question about treatment, about orders from the Party concerning treatment of pilots who had bailed out of their planes. I myself recall, I believe in 1944, an aircraft was shot down and four pilots made emergency landings on the other side of the lake. Then I called up and officers of the Luftwaffe were immediately sent forward in order to collect the four pilots. I say this now because the officer came back and reported that four pilots were no longer available but had been transported away by the police. Put our orders were to collect them and I am sorry I didn't mention it before but now my case is complete.
Q. Let us go back to concentration camp inmates. What has been done in health matters?
A. There was an estate, called Boek. This estate consisted of several thousand acres and apart from potatoes and turnips also produced wheat. We received from that estate both for Larz Commander and concentration camps and for the foreign workers large quantities of goods produced there were handed over.
Q. These concentration camp inmates; were they exploited unfairly during their working hours?
A. I can say this - I myself was in the hall east from there up to the building of the Commander, and was about a kilometer and a half. The foreign workers and concentration camp inmates lived in smaller and bigger groups and worked in such groups, but I could always observe them when I 1192-A walked along the lanes.
It seemed that when the civilian and other employees there were still working the concentration camp groups had already stopped working because they had to be in their camp at a certain time. The time they needed to march to and fro was part of their working hours.
Q. Were they told to work particularly fast, or particularly heavy?
A. I can say this that I could really judge them because after all I saw them almost daily. Their work was not particularly slow, it wasn't particularly fast. And one couldn't say they were driven on.
Q. Were these people happy or did you hear complaints?
A. Should complaints have occurred I would have been the first to hear about them for it would have been my job to hear them because I headed the particular office for food and treatment which was the liaison office between ourselves and the Stalags.
I even listened at times to outbursts of Joy. And from the liaison office we bought everything, beginning from cigarettes and other small gifts, food stuffs, etc. This was used both in the camps and foreign workers were always running about freely there.
Q. Did your office ask for concentration camp inmates or were they sent to you by labor exchanges on the basis of assignment of labor?
A. We had to use two ways, we had to use two channels here one through labor exchanges and the other through our unit who ordered labor for us and on the basis of our application with the Labor Exchanges and the GL whether this special commando and attachment came from Oranienburg on the basis of our application I really don't know.
Q. Did you request concentration camp inmates or simply workers?
A. I may say quite frankly here I asked for German workers and I expected they would turn up but as we were under orders to maintain secrecy neither did I think of foreign workers or concentration camp inmates.
Q. Witness, did you hear that Milch regarded the War as lost quite openly and that he made very strong statements in public?
A. I myself and my Commanding Officer were friends. As my Commanding Officer was immediately subordinated to Milch and I had to see from conversation, apart from official relationship there was also a friendly relationship. I also heard what Milch thought - I heard that Milch went very far in his judgment and not only regarded the war as lost but was very critical of certain institutes and certain people.
Q. I have no other questions. He is at the disposal of Prosecution.
