Q. That was some case of mistake the Gestapo made when they arrested somebody, was it?
A. I don't know the details of it. I know that the person in question was subsequently free, after he was told that nothing could be put against him.
Q. And who was it? He was not in Dachau or Oranienburg?
A. No.
Q. Were you in constant attendance on Goering?
A. As his adjutant I accompanied him on all official trips and during his presence in headquarters.
Q. Did you see all the correspondence that came to and from Goering's office?
A. Only that which was military. That is to say, Luftwaffe matters to the extent it went through our offices and was not dealt with directly by the particular branch leaders with Goering, or went through the Fuehrer headquarters.
Q. But you would have occasion to have letters come out from Goering which he would tell you to send around to the Chief of Staff or the Quartermaster General for the Luftwaffe, or one of the other of the branches?
A. Yes.
Q. And you would take the letter and look it over and make out a "buck" slip, or a little piece of paper and put something on it and send it on?
A. Either that letter was simply signed by Goering, which was dictated by him, or was a messageor note submitted to him for him to decide on, or not, a note on it but some kind of a simple message to pass on without any note. That was the sort of thing which was without any commentary from the adjutant's office.
Q. But an occasion would arise when you would have to make some comment on a slip that you prepared, if he told you to send this letter to so and so and asked him about this and that to put something on it and he would then hand you the letter, is that right?
A. Yes, that is so.
1283 a
Q. Did you, of course, know who Himmler was?
A. Yes, that I knew?
Q. You knew he was head of the SS?
A. Yes.
Q. And the Gestapo?
A. Yes.
Q. You knew that he had concentration camp workers working in the Luftwaffe armaments industry and factories?
A. I know of this only on the occasion of a visit to a factory and that was the only factory where I saw concentration camp inmates working?
Q. How were they dressed?
A. They were wearing German prison clothes.
Q. Were they wearing verticle stripes, say, of white and black?
A. Verticle stripes such as we have lately seen in Dachau.
Q. Where was this one factory you visited?
A. That was in Regensburg.
Q. That was a Messerschmidt factory, was it not?
A. The factory had belonged to the Messerschmidt plants, yes.
Q. They were making airplanes there, weren't they?
A. Yes.
Did you knew where these concentration camp workers came from?
A That I did not know. I asked one of the guards what people these were, and I was explicitly told that these were criminal prisoners.
Q Who was with you on this trip to the factory at Regensburg?
A I accompanied Goering on this trip.
Q Who was guarding these people in these concentration camps?
A The SS.
Q The SS. Did you see where they lived?
A No. We were only in the factory itself.
Q When was this that you went to the Messerschmidt factory in Regensburg?
AApril or May, 1944, if I remember.
Q Did you see any foreign workers there?
AAs I said before, no one struck me particularly as being a foreign worker, but I do know that Goering spoke several times to workers and thus ascertained that this or that one was not German and thus he found out that he was a foreign worker.
Q Do you know what countries they came from, these foreign workers that were out there?
A We. French and Russian were the languages in which the answers were given.
Q Did you ever visit any other factories during the period 1940 when you became Chief Adjutant until the end of the War, that is, between these two dates from 1940 to the end of '45?
A Yes, Arado in Braunschweig, Junkers in Dessau and in Wiener-Neustadt.
Q Would you mind repeating these for me, please?
AArado in Braunschweig, Junkers in Dessau and Wiener-Neustadt.
Q When were these visits, do you recall?
A During the period between 1942 and '44.
Q Did you see the people who were working there in the Arado factory in Braunschweig, the Junkers factory in Dessau--and what kind of a factory was it in Wiener-Neustadt?
A Weiener-Neustadt was also an airplane factory that built Messerschmidt 109's.
Q Do you remember what kind of people worked in those factories?
A We were there to see a development program being carried out, and they were exclusively Germans.
Q You didn't see any concentration camp people?
A No.
Q You didn't see any foreigners?
A No, I didn't notice any.
Q And you didn't see any of the SS boys around guarding anybody?
A. No.
Q You could recognize the SS if you saw them?
A Yes.
Q Can you do any better on the dates of the visits to the Arado factory in Braunschweig, the Junkers factory in Dessau and the ME-109 factory in Wiener-Neustadt than just "sometime between 1942 and 1944"?
A I have to make a correction first. The Arado factory is not in Braunschweig as I said previously but in Branderburg, and regarding the precise times, I really cannot make any statement. I have no schedule with me and no documents on the basis of which I could arrange that, the order in which I visited the various factories or when it was.
Q You just knew it was sometime between the period 1942 and '44?
A Between '42 and '44, Arado in '43 and '44 because we went to look at a specific model which was being fabricated at that time.
Q Do you remember being interrogated here in December of last year by Captain Koch of the -
A Here in -
Q Here in Nurnberg.
A Yes.
Q And he talked to you about this same general subject, and do you remember the last question which he asked you? "I would like to know who was responsible for labor assignment in the Luftwaffe and who asked for labor"? Do you remember that? And your answer -
A. I do not remember that because I neither saw nor signed the record of this interrogation. I only remember that the interrogation took place, but I don't remember the individual questions.
Q. You have no recollection of being asked that question?
A. I know that all the questions were something of the sort of questions that are being asked here, but the individual questions I do not remember.
Q. So you don't recall the question which I just put to you?
A. It is possible that this question was asked in that form, but specifically I cannot remember the details.
Q. Well, you wouldn't say that you weren't asked the question?
A. No, I wouldn't deny that the question was asked me.
MR. DENNEY: No further questions.
DR. BERGOLD: I really have no further questions, but the following has been brought to my attention: Witness, when you spoke of concentration camp inmates previously, you had said that they were penal prisoners not the transcribed word "criminal" prisoners which was incorrect. I then have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: What should it have been?
DR. BERGOLD: The German word "criminal prisoner" used means more than an ordinary prisoner. It means a man who has been sentenced by a penal court, whereas the word "prisoner" is a general term which can include concentration camp prisoners, pre-trial prisoners, penal prisoners and prisoners of war and so on. The translation which was originally "criminal prisoners" should have been "penal prisoners".
THE PRESIDENT: This witness may be removed. Oh, just a moment.
RECESS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. You never knew anything about any atrocities that were committed by any German forces, either in the homeland or in any of the occupied territories at the time they were committed; you only found out about these things later; is that right?
Individual cases of plundering or rape were known to me on the basis of sentences passed by courts martials, but personal knowledge I do not have. I know that both in France and Russia measures were taken against these crimes and severe penalties passed.
Q. And so far as you know any of these violations that were committed, which were brought to the attention of the higher authorities, were promptly dealt with by appropriate German military court or the German civil court?
A. I know only of cases from the court-martials. I know that the cases that did become known were dealt with in the correct fashion.
Q. And you never heard anything about families being broken up and sent to concentration camps -- or anything like that?
A. No.
Q. And if you had heard about them, you would have been in a position to do something about them; you were the adjutant to the Reich Marshal.
A. If I had found out about such cases, I should certainly ask Goering what was to be done, because I myself had no power of command.
Q. But you could not talk to him; he was a pretty big man, wasn't he?
A. You could not speak with him -- you could speak with him.
JUDGE NUSMANNO: There is a conflict in the answer. I thought the witness said he could speak with him.
A. Yes, it was possible to speak with Goering.
MR. DENNY: No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: This witness may be removed by the Marshal.
(Witness removed from Courtroom by the Marshal)
DR. BERGOLD: I ask to call the witness General Folmy.
THE PRESIDENT: It is so close to our recess time that we will call the witness immediately after the recess. The Tribunal will recess now for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal No. 2 is again in session.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Tribunal, we should*****like to call Gen. Felmy.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will bring in the witness;
HELMUTH FELMY, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows;
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Will you raise your right hand and repeat after me; I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, would you tell this Tribunal your first name and your Last name?
A. Helmuth Felmy, F-e-l-m-y.
Q. Then were you born, witness?
A. On the 20th of May, 1885.
Q. What was your rank and your official position which you had last in one German Wehrmacht?
A. General of the airforce, general of the 34th army corps.
Q. Do you know Mr. Milch?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recognize him here in this court?
A. Yes, he is sitting over there.
DR. BERGOLD: I would like to have the record show that the witness recognized the defendant.
TEE PRESIDENT: The record will so show.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, do you know the so-called basic Fuehrer order No. 1?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Could you tell me when this order exactly was issued?
A. On the 12th of January, 1940.
Q. You are quite sure of this date?
A. Yes, I am.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Bergold, is that the secrecy order?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, Your Honor. It was know in Germany -- in Germany it was known as the basic Fuehrer Order No. 1. That is the way they called it in Germany, the official language. Isn't that correct, witness?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, can you tell me how you judge the defendant Milch?
A. I know the defendant Milch, or rather, I met him when he was a director or manager of the Lufthansa. I had personal dealings with him, and our relationship was very good.
Q. Is he a just man or is he a man who is not afraid of any cruelty or atrocity?
A. He is a just man. Maybe once in a while he stuffs his mouth, that is to say, in order to stress certain remarks. However, I never noticed any Atrocities or cruelty in him.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Tribunal, I did not want to ask any more questions of this witness. All I wanted to know was the date of the Fuehrer Order.
THE PRESIDENT: Can we have that document which contains that order that you just referred to? It is the Court's impression that it bears a different date than the one given by the witness.
MR. DENNEY: I believe, if Your Honor please, they are talking about Document L79, which is the record by Col. Schmundt of the Hitler conference in May 1939. That, if Your Honor please, is document No. 1 on Page 1 of Document Book 1-A.
DR. BERGOLD: I must disagree with Mr. Denney. I do not agree with Mr. Denney. The Fuehrer Order was an order of his own. I tried to get this document everywhere; however, it was probably destroyed. Many German defense counsel or lawyers tried to get this document. Mr. Denney just mentioned the so-called Schmundt record or protocol where this Fuehrer order is contained in exact manner. However, it is not the Fuehrer order. Could you tell us something about that, witness?
THE PRESIDENT: We have seen that order. It is the one where Hitler said that no one should know more than was necessary, no one should speak before it was necessary, and so forth.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, I saw it myself as a German soldier.
THE PRESIDENT: I am referring now to Document L79, which bears the date 23 May 1939.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: And this one says no one must be admitted who is not concerned, no one may know more than is necessary for him to know, and so forth. That is not the one you refer to?
DR. BERGOLD: No. It is a Fuehrer Befehl, a Fuehrer Order. My argument -- I will go into details later. My argument is that this document does not contain the full truth of the conditions at that time and this is in evidence -- that this Fuehrer order which was released in 1941 is already in that document book from May 1939. Therefore I say that this Schmundt record was made after 1940 and that therefore it is not enough evidence and cannot bring enough evidence what happened in this conference of May '39 and what was discussed in that conference. I would like to see if the witness can make any statement as to that.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, please answer.
A This order was released on the 12th of January 1940. It was written in a personal manner. The contents were approximately the following, and were about the same as our opinion of the Fuehrer order. The order said approximately the Fuehrer -- the troops should not be informed as to the intention of the leadership, they only have to know what they have to know immediately and have to find out as late as possible. In other words, at a time to enable them to release the necessary additional orders. I know the date for that particular reason exactly because on that day I got my release, or I was discharged.
Q Witness, I didn't want to ask you about that.
A However, this is in evidence because I remember exactly.
Q The order was released because of an incident you thought you were responsible for?
A Yes, there was an incident that happened within my field of work or activities.
Q And was started by this occasion?
A Yes, there can be no doubt about that.
DR. BERGOLD: I have no further questions. The witness is at the disposal of Mr. Denney.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:
Q Witness, what was your rank in May 1939?
A In May 1939 I was commander of Air Fleet 2, Braunschweig.
Q What was your rank? General der Flieger?
A General der Flieger.
Q And that is one rank below the rank of Generaloberst, is it not?
A Yes, indeed.
Q Were you in a meeting with Hitler on 23 May or any time around that date, 1939?
A No.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Mr. Denney, what is the American equivalent of that rank which you have mentioned in German?
MR. DENNEY: General der Fleiger is like our Lieutenant General, if Your Honor please. Generaloberst is like our four star General.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. Did you ever talk to anybody about that meeting?
A. No. I just learned about this conference through the press. I didn't know that there was a session in May with the Fuehrer.
Q. Did you talk to Milch about it?
A. No.
Q. With Goering?
A. Neither with Goering nor with Milch.
Q. Keitel, Jodl?
A. No.
Q. Raeder?
A. No.
Q. Warliment?
A. No.
Q. When did you first find out about this meeting?
A. Right now in the Nuremberg trials and from the excerpts of that so-called Schmundt record, of which excerpts appeared in the press, the papers.
Q. You didn't know that the meeting was held until sometime late in '45 or -
A. No, I didn't know about that. Later on in '45, to be exact, '46, I was in Braunschweig and I had nothing to do with Berlin exactly.
Q. Your duties didn't even have you in Berlin at that time, did they?
A. Once in a while, yes, but the left wing was Braun-schweig and the right wing of the Air Corps was Stralsund.
Q. Did you know anything about the employment of partisans which were captured as laborers? Withdrawn. You were commanding general of the 34th army corps down in -
A. No. No. At that time I was commander of Air Fleet II, Braunschweig.
Q. We are talking about '39 now. We are through with that.
A. No, later.
1294 (a)
Q. At one time you were commanding general of the 34th Army Corps in the southeast, were you not?
A. No, it was Yugoslavia.
Q. We won't argue about the direction. Do you recall what disposition was made of partisans who were captured down there?
A. There were different orders, various orders. There was an order against gang fights, I believe, from '42, and still later on it was extended by additional orders, and then later on was mitigated.
Q. Do you remember that partisans who were captured were made available as laborers in Germany?
A. According to my opinion, this was demanded in the summer of 1944. The troops were generally against it because they said that sabotage could be carried out by these partisans, and they weren't quite reliable, because of their previous activities. They didn't think that appropriate.
Q. But they did make them available as laborers to Germany?
A. Well, a certain percentage of them came to Germany. I do not know how many of them did cone to Germany, though, but they applied for them; that is correct.
MR. DENNEY: No further questions, Your honor.
DR. BERGOLD: I have no further questions, Your honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal may remove this witness. Are you ready for the next witness, Dr. Bergold?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, General Warlimont.
THE PRESIDENT: You may bring General Warlimont back.
WALTER WARLIMONT? a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
THE PRESIDENT: The witness will raise his right hand and repeat after me: I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, will you tell this Tribunal your first and last names?
A. My name is Walter Warlimont, W-A-R-L-I-M-O-N-T.
Q. When were you born, witness?
A. 3 October 1894.
Q. What was your last rank in the German Wehrmacht?
A. I was general of the artillery and belonged to the Fuehrer Reserve of High Command of the army.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please this Tribunal, I shall now come to the famous Schmundt protocol or record, which we discussed a few minutes ago. It is Exhibit No. 3, page 1 of the Document Book Number 1-A of the Prosecution.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, do you know that on 23 May 1939 in the office of Himmler, Hitler and the New Reich Chancellory there was a conference ?
A. I heard about this conference for the first time on 12 October 1945 in this building here. On that particular day I was questioned by an American interrogator. He shelved me a photostatic copy of this conference, and I immediately stated that I had not participated in that session and that I furthermore did not know anything about the fact that this conference had taken place.
Q. In other words, if this record shows that you were present, then it is not correct?
A. It is undoubtedly wrong.
DR. BERGOLD: I have no further questions of this witness. He is now at the disposal of Mr. Denney.
MR. DENNEY: No questions, Your Honor.
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q. Did you know Colonel Schmundt?
A. Yes, for quite a period of years.
Q. Did you ever have occasion to talk with him between May 1939 and the end of the war?
A. Yes, quite often.
Q. And nothing ever developed in the conversation that would lead you to know or to have some intimation that your name had been included in the memorandum which he made up of this famous meeting?
A. No, there was never a question about that.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Were you in Berlin in May 1939?
A. In May 1939 I was in Berlin in general because my office was there. However, I can not tell whether I was there on 23 May.
Q. Where was your office in Berlin?
A. It was in the building of the Reich bar Ministry in Bendlerstrasse.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. Witness, you have spoken of your interrogation of 12 October 1945 by Lieutenant Colonel Hinkel. Do you recall that?
A. Yes.
Q. At that tine he showed you the original of this document signed by Schmundt?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. And you identified Schmundt's signature, didn't you?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. And he also asked you why you thought Schmundt would say that you were there if you were not there, didn't he? Do you remember him asking you that?
A. I do remember that, and I remember my answer as well.
Q. And what did you answer to that?
A. First of all, I pointed out that the list of those present had been typed prior to the conference, while the record itself was handwritten and could only have been written after the conference. The Wehrmacht adjutantur, whose chief was Schmundt, had anticipated my participation in that conference. However, later on, they did not correct the list of those present.
Q. Do you remember telling Colonel Hinkel that it may be that you had forgotten?
A. No, I did not say that.
Q. And then Colonel Hinkel said to you, "In other words, you don't say you were not there; you just say you don't remember?" And you said, "Yes, Yes, that is all I can say."
A. No, I explicitly mentioned that I was not there, and I gave him a whole series of reasons for that.
MR. DENNEY: No more questions.
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q. Is Schmundt living now?
A. No, Schmundt died after the attempt of 20 July.
Q. Of 1944?
A. Yes.
Q. Was he one of the conspirators?
A. No.
Q. What was the occasion of his death, what happened, if you know?
A. He was present in the room where the attempt on Hitler's life took place. He was injured very badly and died a few weeks later as a result of the so injuries he received.
Q. Very well.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, one more question. Were you asked to attend this conference?
A. No, I did not know anything about that conference until 12 October 1945. I did not know that such a conference took place until that date.
DR. BERGOLD: No further questions.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Had you been invited to attend the conference by Hitler, you hardly would have stayed away, would you?
A. No, I don't think so, under no circumstances. However, for that reason, it is quite improbable that I had been invited, because never during that period of my office was I over called to such a conference. Never. Three years prior to that I visited Hitler once -- one single time -- because for a particular reason when I had returned from abroad, and for that reason, I would not have forgotten such an incident.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal may remove this witness.
(Witness excused.)