A No, in Bromen we only built a U-boat factory.
Q Do you recall constructing any factories for Heinkel?
A That I don't know. I wasn't really interested in such questions, because I received the data from the Fighter Staff, and the Fighter Staff did the actual construction. The engineer of the OT built the house, and then the fighter staff took care of the rest with the construction firms. There were no discussions at all or. my part with construction firms. Moreover, I didn't even have time to carry cut such things.
Q But you got your labor through Schmelter, who was a member of the Jaegerstab?
A Yes, he was a member of the Fighter Staff, and I have already said that he was also the leader of the Arbeitseinsatz in the OT. He was in charge. At first he was entirely within the OT, and. then later he was what you might call the leader for the allocation of labor in Speer's Ministry, and was in charge later of the allocation of labor in the OT. At the same time, he performed the same function in the Fighter Staff, so that automatically there was a connection between tho OT and the Fighter Staff.
MR. KING: I have no further questions, Your Honor.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, I have one more question. When were these Hungarian Jews put to work at Muehldorf?
A I do not know about Muehldorf, but I can recall that at Kauffering the first ones came--and hero I must guess-at the end or the beginning of June 1944.
DR. BERGOLD: Thank you, I have no further questions.
MR. KING: I have one further question, if Your Honor pleases.
DR. BERGOLD: I have just heard that the interpreter was inaccurate. The witness spoke of tho end and the middle of June, and the interpreter said "the beginning of June."
THE INTERPRETER: "The middle or the end of June" is what the witness 1377A said, but he is not sure about it.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. KING:
Q Now witness, with respect to this construction at Kauffering, can you tell me when that was initiated?
A In may of 1944 it must have begun, the beginning of May.
Q And that was also true of the other fighter factories that you were to construct under the Hitler Order?
A Very soon, perhaps two weeks later, the construction in Muehldorf began; the construction in Vaihingen that I mentioned before was already under way, and I took it over. The construction in the Rhineland started considerably later, it could have been perhaps at the end of June; Prague came along, much later.
Q Now, you say that you were at Kauffering on two separate occasions. Did you have any opportunity to-
A (Interposing) I was in Kauffering three times. Do you want to know when? in Hay 1944; at the beginning of January 1945; and then once more just before the capitulation, perhaps two or three weeks before the capitulation.
Q Do you recall anything about the conditions at Kauffering; that is, the conditions of labor?
A I only saw the construction site. When I was in Munic in June, Niebermann, who was responsible for the construction, told me that the Hungarian Jews were poorly clothed and poorly fed in part. I then told the competent SS man, whose name I no longer recall--but he was there in Munich, in Niebermann's office--and I pointed out to him that this was the responsibility of the SS and he should see to it that these men were decently clothed.
Q Witness, do you recall any reports of deaths of Hungarian Jews on the-project?
A Roughly, in October, our physician told me that the fatalities in Kauffering were higher than normal. I then commissioned that physician to take up negotiations with the SS to improve conditions.
I should like to say explicitly that the OT, and this also included myself, was forbidden to enter the camps. The physician tried to send medicines to the camp, and was successful. I can remember a date precisely, namely, one on which I was operated on--that is why I remember it--it was the 13. of November, at which time the physician told me that he had succeeded in bringing these bad hygienic conditions to an end after considerable effort with the SS. I remember the date because it coincided with a sickness of my own.
MR. KING: I have no further questions, Your Honor.
DR. BERGOLD: No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal may remove this witness.
(Witness Excused)
DR. BERGOLD: Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: What witnesses do you have for tomorrow?
1379a
DR. BERGOLD: None. No other witness have arrived. General Roetter and General Verwaldt and Colonel Petersen, who is in the hands of the Starnberg CIC, are the only main ones still missing, and I have heard nothing from these three.
THE PRESIDENT: We will have a general recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30. I will ask Mr. Denney and Dr. Bergold to see me in my chambers to lay out the work f r tomorrow. We will recess at this time.
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal is in recess until 0930 tomorrow morning.
(At 1650 hours, 24 February 1947, a recess was "taken until Wednesday, 26 February 1947, at 0930 hours.)
Official Transcript of tho American Military Tribunal in the Matter of the United States of America against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 3 March 1947, 1015 - 1650 hours, Justice Tons presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in tho courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.
Military Tribunal II is now in session, God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will bring in the witness Roeder.
MANFRED ROEDER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
THE PRESIDENT: The witness will raise his right hand and repeat after me: I swear by God, the Omniscient and Omnipotent, that I will speak the whole truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, please speak slowly and Blake a certain pause after every question I ask you before you answer my question. This will enable the interpreters to complete the translation of my questions.
Will you tell this Tribunal your first and last name?
A Manfred Roeder.
Q When were you born?
A 20 August 1900.
Q. What were the rank and official position which you last held in the German Wehrmacht?
A. I was last General Judge.
Q. Witness, please make a pause.
A. I was last General Judge and Chief Judge of the Air Fleet IV under Colonel General Lester.
Q. Do you know Mr. Milch?
1381-A
A I met Herr Milch in 1935 for the first time when tho Air Fleet Justice was being built up.
Q From what time on did you have any official dealings with him?
A I had official dealings with him in April 1942--or rather, from 1942 to October 1942 on the occasion of an investigation , which was to clear his death, and, furthermore, the failure of the German air armamont in 1942 in the field of engine manufacture and also in tho body manufacturing of the air armement.
Q Were you not also president of the special court which mas under Milch?
A I was supervisory judge of the Luftgau III and IV. As such I had in the field of those two Luftgaus approximately seven to eight courts. Amongst these in October 1942 a Field Court was set up, FbZ, which was for technical matters, in particular at the disposal of tho GL, as the burdening of all tho other field courts with technical matters was not bearable, and that court was occupied mainly with judges who had a certain technical knowledge.
Q This Tribunal was under Mr. Milch?
A In this Tribunal Field Marshal Milch at tho time was Supreme Judge.
Q Witness, can you tell this Tribunal what your experience with Mr. Milch was--whether ho insisted on strong penalties or was rather lenient?
AAs supervisory judge, I had the judgment and representation responsible be the control division of jurisdiction. Consequently, my task was to be in contact with the individual judges. Field Marshal Milch was considered a man who in his expressions was rather strong and used strong and hard words, but whose attitude later on was very lenient and good, and who very often reduced certain sentences that we passed and deemed necessary in the interest of the great good.
I know a number of cases like that because in one case the Ministry, in other words, the Central Division of Jurisdiction, was not quite agreed to that, that he had reduced it.
Q Could you tell us of single examples?
1382a
A Yes. In 1940 a Captain Mueller, a squadron loader of a reconnaissance group, because of a misappropriation of NV funds, was sentenced to one year in jail and loss of rank. He committed that out of pure carelesness. He used the money for Festivities and for women. Otherwise, he mas a man who was an alert and good flier. General Field Marshal Milch saw to it that tho sentence mas reduced to three months in jail without loss of rank and that tho man was put in the squadron for activity at the front.
Q Do you know of tho case Rautenbach?
A Yes, I do remember this case. Rautenbach was a man from the aluminum Industry. He had his factory in Reinland-Westfalen. Then his factory had to be transferred to another place because of tho air raids, and it was rebuilt in Berniger-Rhode. For that purpose, the Bank for Aviation had given a certain transfer credit, and out of this credit the machinery had to be bought for the factory in Berninger-Rhode. Rautenbach took out of this money, which was intended solely for tho outfitting of the factory, 800,000 Marks and he built a beautiful villa. According to the regulations of the war economy, this was not permitted. The members of the staff announced this, and General Field Marshall Milch ordered the Field Tribunal to investigate immediately. His words were as follows: "Catch the guy and shoot him to death," he said. "I want to have this matter investigated immediately." When I wanted to leave the room, Milch told me, "As far as that goes, he is my best aluminum expert. He has accomplished the biggest quotas, also, in the remelting process, please be rather careful with him as to how this matter develops." Between the first words and the statements made later on there were only a few minutes, but his whole attitude had changed within those few minutes.
Rautenbach, who was then in Berninger-Rhode, was examined there and transferred to Berlin for further examination. Then I personally went to see Milch. I told him that the sum of 600,000 Harks was highly exaggerated and that in a construction contingent of five or six millions, 70,000 Harks, approximately, had been used for rebuilding the villa. That is how the matter became entirely different. However, in itself it was still punishable.
1383a The final decision was that there would not be any proceedings until the end of the war.
Milch discussed the matter with Rautenbach and told him to be worthy of this concession and, "I hope that your output will be increased by thirty per cent." Quite a few months later I happened to be in the ante-room of the Field Director whoso name I don't remember when Milch came out of his office and, with tho friendliest smile on his face, told me, "You see, Rautenbach has already increased his output by 15 per cent."
Q That is enough. He wanted to have the man shot first, and then a few minutes later he said, "Be careful with him?"
A Yes, that is the way it happened frequently.
Q Do you remember a case where ho tried to bring people over to tho Luftwaffe Courts when they were in the hands of the Gestapo or who were put before special courts, in order to prevent them from being sentenced to death, which they would have had to expect?
A Yes, it occurred very often that the Gestapo captured members of the Luftwaffe and was not willing to put them before tho regular courts of the Luftwaffe. They often said that political reasons also were decisive, that the normal procedure could not be followed.
The first case which caused us trouble, that tho intrusion into the military jurisdiction should not occur, was in 1938, when a Ministerial Director, Schwartz, because of alleged monarchistic activity, was arrested by tho Gestapo.
I learned about that when I was supervisory judge in Luftgau 3, and I tried to help Schwarz, who had been with the Gestapo for ten days, and to transfer him into tho military jurisdiction. This was not quite easy. However, later on I succeeded in, with the help of Milch, General Weidl, and the Chief of the Luftwaffe Jurisdiction, von Hammerstein, the Ministerial Director, I succeeded in bringing this military director, Schwarz, before a military tribunal and to remove him from captivity of the Gestapo. Later on, on the basis of innocence, he was acquitted, pardoned, and upon application of Milch he was used as a military director again, in which position ho remained until the end of the war. A further case was the arrest of the two directors of Radio OPTA, which used to be Radio Loewe, who had boon arrested by the Gestapo because of alleged economy sabotage. In reality, however, there were rather small differences and monetary discrepancies between these two and the Gauleiter Goerlitzer, They had been sent to the Concentration Camp Oranienburg. Milch called me up and I was asked to go immediately to the Gostapo and talk to them in my official capacity. I actually succeeded in, on the basis of the proof that there were personal differences between tho two - or the three, rather - I succeeded in frocing both of them within four days from the Concentration Camp Oranienburg. The personnel of Radio OPTA was rather bothered by the arrest of these two people because both of them had a good name in that radio station, particularly Reader, because he started as a simple employee.
Q Thank you, that is sufficient. Do you remember the case Schleich, and can you toll me something about it?
A Schleich had been sentenced to death.
Q. No, that isn't right, There is something else, too. I'm sorry. Would you tell me the case of the -- Obergofreiter who had boon sentenced to death because ho had used strong expressions concerning Hitler, and who had then been pardoned by Milch, or at least, whoso pardon had been proposed by Milch?
A Yes, that was towards the end of summer or early in autumn, 1943.
1385a all air raid had taken place in Berlin and somebody was on leave from the regiment of Goering.
A man had lost his wife and his child. I don't remember. In any case, he had lost quite a few of his relatives. The next day, as they were all in an air raid shelter and the people there were being fed, he used very strong expressions concerning the Fuehrer, Hitler, that is, and also concerning the Luftwaffe and its lack of defensive power. In a field tribunal he was sentenced to death, because of subversive activities against the Wehrmacht. Milch in this case put in a good word for him, which Was then sent to Goering, and asked whether these people, who under psychological strain made such remarks, had to be given consideration to a certain extent. He said the sentence later on was reduced and, as far as I know, the man, after two or three months in jail, came back to his regiment. In any case, the death sentence was withdrawn on the basis of Milch's intervention.
Q Witness, is it correct that, since he did not have that first Z.B.V., that you gave Milch a man by the name of Schleich, as a legal adviser?
Yes. From October 1942 to January or February 1943 he stayed there, and then in February the Field Court went to General KastnerKirdorf, who at the same time had the office of pardoning. However, as there were too many judicial questions concerning civilians, the central division of jurisdiction, the Oberfeldrichter Schleich was given to Milch and was put at his disposal permanently, who spoke to me concerning Milch, and also concerning the cooperation between the two, during which time he used a term concerning Milch, the cooperation would be good. I am sorry, I shall use the term exactly as Schleich used it: "Dogs that bark do not bite."
Q Witness, since we know the judicial powers of this department, could you answer my question: If Milch had any possibility, any legal possibility whatsoever, to sentence prisoners of war to death?
A The Luftwaffe had. nothing at all to do with prisoners of war. The whole prisoners of war question was under the army, so that a procedure of the Luftwaffe against prisoners of war was absolutely impossible. If prisoners of war - if anything happened with prisoners of war, then a report had to be sent to the respective army courts and the army courts then proceeded against.
1386 A PW's. This was a very difficult procedure.
The protective power had to be informed of it and then, with many copies, had to be sent to OKW, and various other organizations. In all these six years of the war I did not know of any case in which the Luftwaffe acted or proceeded against PW.'s. In any case I know for sure that none of the military courts which were under me ever carried out a procedure against prisoners of war.
Q Would the Wehrmacht have permitted such a proceeding?
A What kind of a proceeding?
Q If Mr. Milch himself would have passed a death sentence?
A This would have caused a storm in the justice. The Luftwaffe Justice, or justice, would no longer have permitted such a thing to happen, namely, that an officer, who could have used his power in judicial questions; that is absolutely impossible.
Q Witness, you tell us that this investigation followed that case. Did you find out how Udet died?
A Yes. Together with present Dr. Koel, Minister Director Dr. Ernst, I carried out a thorough investigation. All personal friends of Udet were examined. Udet, in July and August 1941, had been sick due to grippe, flu; and due to having drunk too much alcohol, and he was very weak, constitutionally, that is. When he recuperated after a long time, and slowly, the Rich Program had just been completed, concerning air armament and which put air armament in a new program Oasis. Udet, due to various facts, and due also to his disease, was very little informed of this program. He told this to Reich Marshal, whereupon the Reich Marshal noticed the lack of knowledge of Udet and also his poor physical condition. He understood that. There was a long discussion in the garden of Karin Hall, which ended in Udet's taking six weeks leave in order to go to Buehlerhoehe and to rehabilitate his health there. He did that; then he came back. However, he believed that he had lost Goering's confidence in him, and he said in the following weeks, about early in October or towards the middle of October, he mentioned repeatedly to his friend Mrs.
Bleile that he was thinking of suicide. Early in November, in the evening, he asked his Chief of Staff to come and 1387A see him - General Ploch and General Lucht, where he said that he had lost confidence, and he was very pessimistic on that evening.
A lot of cognac was drunk that evening and it Was one o'clock in the morning. All the gentlemen who had been at Udet's party came in his apartment on Heerstrasse, they came back, that is, toward 7:30 in the morning.
Mrs. Bleile, who, as far as I can remember, lived in Wannsee, received a phone call from Udet. He said he wanted to say goodbye to her. He was sick and tired of his life and he was going to end it. She should not try to change his mind for him. Mrs. Bleile told him that she would arrive immediately, she would go and see him immediately, where upon Udet told her, "It's not worth while. You will not find me alive any more when you come." Thereupon he hung up the receiver. Mrs. Bleilo immediately telephoned a friend of hers and together with him she drove from Wannsee to Heerstrasse. The apartment was closed there. The butler there had been sent for various errands by Udet. after a few minutes, however, he returned. When they entered the apartment, they found Generaloberst Udet dead in his bed. He had committed suicide with a Colt pistol, by shooting himself in the right temple. The exit of the bullet was on the left hand part of the skull and went from the right, front part of the head to the left, upper part of the head. There was a letter in which Udet made final dispositions concerning his assets, particularly concerning his memoirs of the first world war, Which Koerner received, and a few other things.
BR. BERGOLD: Thank you, witness. I have no further questions to the witness, Your Honors.