A. That is so without a doubt.
Q. And would you go so far as to say that had there been an international trial of the proportions of the one we have just had, and these which are now following, after the first world war, that the knowledge which resulted from the decisions which would have been handed down after the first world war would have become so well known because of the punishment which would have been inflicted, that might have served as a bar against a second world war?
A. I do not wish to say that it would have been stopped and Hitler -
Q. If Hitler could not have had specialists -- Hitler could not have done this himself. Hitler had to have a Speer and had to have the others who were condemned in the first International Military Tribunal. He could not have done it alone.
A. That's quite clear but these specialists were taken into their part of the war without realizing what the connections were and an International Trial is not a wholly sure method to prevent a new war but I think it's a very essential contribution for that purpose. I am unable to answer your question by saying if Hitler would have been unable to find collaborators if after the first World War these trials had been held, but I do wish to say it would have been much more difficult for him and for further reasons that our specialists were not very intimately connected with the party circles.
Q. Well, I think that's a point I wanted to find out; that if the specialists had refused to collaborate, knowing that the contribution of their services meant completely an illegal undertaking then Hitler could not have conducted a war by himself and therefore there could not have been a war?
A. In technical warfare the specialists are decisive factors to wage war but the specialists are not to be regarded as being principally responsible parties. They do not have the knowledge of the background, the political background, which is necessary in consideration of Hitler's untruthfulness, for them to see where he is taking the ship.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Do you have any questions, Dr. Bergold?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, sir, I have. Witness; your Honor. The Judge has asked you how it would be if a factory, for instance, would need and would request 50,000 workers which way and in which channel which would have been done up to the point in foreign territories when 50,000 foreigners would have been gathered and taken to Germany for that purpose, isn't it correct that such a request -- that such a pro posal of bringing 50,000 workers to this factory did not mean that 50,000 foreign workers but meant only that 50,000 1453 a Court No. 2 - INTERROGATION workers altogether were brought into the Reich?
That meant German workers as well as foreign workers and which were actually over in Germany and employed there and also new recruits? That included all that, did it not?
A. I was deflected from my answer in that particular case and I bid not really give an answer to the question. If 50,000 workers were requested for a certain branch in our industry the oldest request, a figure which did not show how many of them were Germans and how many of them were foreign workers. The bigger part of the workers which were supplied came from what was called fluctuation. Fluctation meant the transfer of workers from one plant to another. It's quite clear that production is in a constant development. One always follows the other and in some cases one orders particular workers and then it loses that importance for military reasons. The plan is that some workers available are constantly released and sent on to different plants or industries. A second force, where the newly mobilized German workers mean the women workers and a third force, was the sending of foreign workers already in Germany and a fourth force, the prisoners-of-war who were also sent on from one branch to the next and the fifth force was such that some that came in abroad newly from foreign countries. How these various workers from these various forces were distributed among branches, my offices nor the factories who had requested workers could find out about. That was a matter purely which had to be decided by the labor exchanges because it took an enormous amount of work to find the proper workers for the proper branches. Therefore, labor assignments always had a basic conduct for it's right -- the demand that this right must not be interfered with. The whole force of workers, both in agricultural industry, coal mining always wore uniforms under the directions of the labor office in the lower regions and neither the factors nor ourselves had any influence on how many foreign workers came into various factories.
Q Thank you. Witness, do you know that when the French Government, which at that time existed in Paris, had issued in order for the calling up of Labor -- compulsory labor?
A These details became known to me during the trial. It was my task and very enormous and at that time I did not bother much about details.
I cannot say anything about this on my knowledge.
Q Witness, you must know this fact; at the time when you had discussions with Mr. Bichelonne, French Minister, I should think that the existence of compulsory labor service in France should have been discussed at that time.
A Perhaps I misunderstood you. I said quite clearly last time that I knew about the fact that occupied territory workers were taken to Germany against their free-will. The various districts, etc. are not known to me.
Q No. I mean if such a decree had been issued at all. That's what I am speaking of.
A I had to assume that but I wasn't actually informed about it.
Q Did you consider the French Government, which at that time was in Paris, France -- did you consider it a regular government?
Court No. 2 - INTERROGATION
A This is the same sort of question which His Honor put to me too. I had no basis to find out whether the French Government was legal or not, because these are problems of International law which are beyond me as a laymen.
Q Witness, do you not know that the Government Petain had been recognized , and was recognized by the American Government, and that the American Government had an Ambassador, if I recall correctly -- and I am net sure I can pronounce his name -- at that time, Mr. Leahy, Admiral Leahy?
A I know that, but I must say frankly that I did not spend my time thinking about whether the French Government was legal or not.
DR. BERGOLD: Thank you. I have no further questions.
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q Herr Speer, what I was endeavoring to elucidate, or have you elucidate for us, was not whether you knew if a government was legal or not, if it was recognized internationally or not. I wanted to draw your attention to something quite more fundamental, and that was the employment against its will of a population in a war activity, all of which was prohibited by international law. And if you and all the specialists in the Hitler regime knew of the limitations and were thoroughly aware, and the knowledge was so widespread that you couldn't help but know that it was illegal and that you would be punished if you did it that is, to bring in workers from another country and put them into war operations -- if that were a matter of such general knowledge that every college man and every person that was well read would know of it, would Hitler not have had difficulty in obtaining such a crew to run a ship, regardless of what he may have had in mind as to the illegal port which he hoped to attain by that voyage?
A I can only speak about the time from which I worked, that is to say, from 1942 onwards. In that time, I am sure that if these legal matters had been made quite clear a large number of technicians or industrial leaders would not have collaborated to the extent they did if they had realized the illegality and the possible punishment.
I would like to stress this particularly for the period from 1943 onwards. From that time onwards, many intelligent people realized that the war had been Court No. 2 - INTERROGATION lost, and from that time onwards it would have made a great impression if in former trials heavy punishment was meted out.
Not everybody would have been impressed; certain people would have followed the old line, out the majority of so-called specialists, certainly -
Q -- would have recognized the illegality of what they were asked to do? I understand you to say that the majority of the specialists would have recognized the illegality of what they were asked to do and would have refused.
That is what I understand you to say.
A Yes, that is what I wanted to say.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Very well. Thank you very much.
MR. DENNEY: To keep the record straight, I assume that Dr. Bergold doesn't maintain that the United States, after the capitulation of France, maintained an ambassador in Paris, but rather it was to the Vichy Government.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Yes. Dr. Bergold, you are aware of what Mr. Denney has said?
MR. DENNEY: To the Vichy Government.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes; it was an ambassador or a minister, admiral Leahy or somebody.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Yes, Well, it certainly wasn't in Paris.
DR. BERGOLD: No, no, no. Yes, I mean the Vichy Government; I mean the Vichy Government, yes.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: That is all. Thank you.
(Witness excused.)
DR. BERGOLD: I am just told, may it please the Court, that Herr Raeder is suffering from Hernia and that the doctor has misgivings for him to make statements today. He must be examined first, and perhaps he will be ready in a few days. It is clear, Your Honor, that under these circumstances I shall do without his interrogation today, because Raeder is over 70 years old and it would not be humane to force him to appear while he is ill. I assume that Your Honor will approve, and also that Mr. Denney will approve.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honor pleases, I have a suggestion. The testimony which was just elicited from the witness Neurath is in substantial agreement Court No. 2 - INTERROGATION with what he testified to before Your Honor at the first session which we had in the interrogation room.
Now I have a complete record of the testimony which was taken before Your Honor with reference to the witness Raeder. I will be glad to submit this to Dr. Bergold in German for his examination, and if it is agreeable to him we can stipulate it into the record that this witness, if called, would have testified to these things; and perhaps that will dispense with the, necessity cf having to hold another one of these sessions.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Well, we will leave it this way, that you will give to Dr. Bergold your record of what transpired that day, and he will examine it. If he finds that the information he would like to obtain from admiral Raeder is contained in this report and that suffices for his needs, naturally, by stipulation, that can be introduced into the record. If, however, after he reads this, he finds that he still wants to question Admiral Raeder, then we see no reason why admiral Raeder should not be called and required to answer.
It is very obvious that the questioning will be a very short one; and whatever Admiral Raeder is now suffering from is not of such a serious nature that he cannot be taken away for a half hour to go anywhere in the Court House to answer a few simple questions put to him.
So we will leave it that way, and then you will inform the Court -- and I am addressing myself to you now, Dr. Bergold -- whether, after reading what Mr. Denney gives you, you want to call Admiral Raeder. If you do, you so notify the Court and he will be called.
DR. BERGOLD: Very good.
MR. DENNEY: I didn't mean to imply that this was to foreclose him; I As just trying to be helpful.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I am entirely aware of that, and we are very grateful to you, Mr. Denney.
MR. DENNEY: Yes, Your Honor.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: But I just wanted to have on the record that we are not influenced at all by what transpired here this morning as to the desires or the feelings cf this recalcitrant witness. If he is needed he will he called, and he will answer. He can't control proceedings by any particular aversions or Court No. 2 - INTERROGATION revulsions which he may feel with regard to what is now legally here for adjudication.
DR. BERGOLD: I agree completely, and I am very grateful to Mr. Denney for his proposition.
There is one point which I do not feel very happy about. Perhaps the Court can help me here. Raeder's statement has not been put under oath, but if Mr. Denney is agreed with me that he will submit it as a document to the Court, then that will probably not make any difficulties.
MR. DENNEY: I will be very glad to have it translated and furnish it to Dr. Bergold, and, provided he wants it, get such additional copies as may be necessary to properly incorporate it into the record.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: As it stands now, Dr. Bergold, it is entirely up to you. After you read this document, you determine whether it suffices or not. If it does, then we will see that it gets into the record. If it does not, you notify the Court and Raeder will be brought into Court.
DR. BERGOLD: Thank you very much.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I am now informed that he is now on the way up.
MR. DENNEY: Perhaps we could take a recess.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: All right, we will take a recess for ten minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
Court No. 2 - INTERROGATION
RUDOLF EMIL HERMANN BRANDT, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO: You will raise your right hand. Do you swear by Almighty God to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth for which you will answer on the last Great Day.
THE WITNESS: I swear.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Very well, you may be seated.
THE WITNESS: Your Honor, May I state -- Your Honor, may I say that for reasons of health I do not feel up to being interrogated now.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Well, will counsel please come up to the Bench.
(Discussion ensued outside the record.)
JUDGE MUSMANNO: We will allow counsel for the witness to enter the court room.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honor, shall we wait until counsel comes in?
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Yes, where is he. Where is defense counsel?
OFFICER OF THE GUARD: He was in court number one.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Colonel Turner said he was going after him.
DR. BERGOLD: The witness said that counsel is not present, not only here nor upstairs. Perhaps inquiry could be made at the defense counsel room. If I were given the opportunity to telephone I could find out for you, Sir.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Well, Colonel Turner has gone for him. In the meantime I think it is advisable to tell you, witness -- you are advised that you are not obliged to answer any questions, or make answers which may incriminate or degrade you.
THE WITNESS: Yes, I know that, but at the moment I have no control over what I say. I should like for that reason to refrain from answering any questions, because at the moment I am really not in a condition to do so.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: How long have you been ill?
THE WITNESS: For several weeks. It has been true that I have been losing weight constantly, and have been exhausted, and correspondingly my mental strength is not available in a sufficient measure. In my own case during the last few days I have not been able to do anything with my own.
Court No. 2 - INTERROGATION
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Have you been attending the court sessions regularly?
THE WITNESS: On Thursday afternoon I was excused because I was no longer able to follow the proceedings. Then we had a four day recess, and yesterday afternoon I was again excused and today also.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Would you be willing to attempt to answer the questions, and then if after we have proceeded a sufficient time in which to determine how you are holding up, and you feel that is should be detrimental to your health to continue, then we will consider whether you should desist. Has the prison physician advised you on this one way or the other?
THE WITNESS: I an receiving additional food so I can get into a better physician condition. I weigh only fifty kilos, and at the moment I do not have the necessary control over myself to make statements here to testify, particularly, in view of the fact that I am a defendant in the other trial.
DR. BERGOLD: May I please say something. Witness, the questions I have to ask are very few in number, and very simple in nature, and they have nothing to do with your case.
THE WITNESS: Nevertheless, I should prefer to refrain and to postpone any such interrogation.
DR. BERGOLD: But witness, we have to get along with this trial. You have deposed and sworn to one affidavit, as you know.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
DR. BERGOLD: And the question is whether you have made a correct statement in matters that do not concern you but that concern Milch, and whether you wish to go ahead with your statement.
THE WITNESS: I still ask to be released from any interrogation.
DR. BERGOLD: The questions are so simple you could answer them without any difficulty whatsoever. I really must insist on that.
THE WITNESS: I refuse to testify. I can not.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, please give your first and last name?
A I refuse to testify. I can not.
Q Would you then not like to still make a statement as to your sworn Court No. 2 - INTERROGATION affidavit?
A I am not in a position to say anything about it. I can not.
DR. BERGOLD: I do not believe that. I am persuaded to say that you can testify, and that you are responding at this time in bad faith.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Witness, you still are able to respond intelligently to questions which are put to you, and you do not seem to be suffering any ill effects from them, from the short questioning which we already had, and certainly it can not hurt you any to respond to your name; so that it would seem that at this moment that your determination in refusing to answer is not because of my physical condition, but because of some barrier which you have set up in your mind in connection with your own case, so we will proceed for awhile, anyway. Now you will answer the questions which are put to you, and unless they in some way cause you to reply in a manner which would be injurious to your case, and to your health, but it must be reasonably obvious to us that it will have this deleterious effect, you will be called upon to answer the questions. Proceed counsel.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, please state your first and last name?
A Rudolf Emil Hermann Brandt.
Q When were you born, witness?
A 20 June 1909.
Q what was your last position during the Third Reich?
A I was Personnel Expert of the Reichfuehrer-SS.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Just a moment, Dr. Brandt.
DR. BERGOLD: Thank you.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Are you counsel for the witness?
DR. FLEMMING: Dr. Flemming, I am representing Dr. Kaufmann who is the witness' counsel.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Are you counsel for the witness.
DR. FLEMMING: I am representing the witness' counsel, who is on a trip.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Yes, very well.
Court No. 2 - INTERROGATION
DR. FLEMMING: Let me state my misgivings about interrogating Brandt at this time. Rudolf Brandt is under treatment by the prison physician. Physically he is in extraordinarily poor condition so that the Court in the First Trial yesterday afternoon and today excused him from the proceedings, Rudolf Brandt is also mentally, as we say in Germany, pretty confused. He is, in my opinion, at the moment not in a position to be heard as a witness. His testimony has not the complete value of witness' testimony at this time.
DR. BERGOLD: I cannot concur in this opinion of my colleague. I leave the decision to the Court.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Dr. Bergold, about what length of time in all would be consumed by your interrogation of the witness?
DR. BERGOLD: I think it might be 20 minutes.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: In view of what has just transpired, we think that perhaps psychologically, regarding the situation from all angles, that it might not be desirable to proceed at this moment. However, I would stand ready myself, to preside over this interrogation at any time. As this would only take 20 minutes or a half hour, I will be glad to do it in a recess period, or after court, or any time at all, and you can feel free to come to me and we will immediately set up in operation the courtroom for the purpose of taking the interrogation and we will allow the witness to think over this matter a half day or a day and then we will insist on interrogation.
I will say to you, witness, Herr Brandt, that ww have no desire to impose upon you the duty to answer the interrogations at this moment because if you feel that you are unable to answer them right now we are not going to insist. From your appearance and from what you have already said, we are not of the opinion that you are unable to testify but we are willing to accede to your wish, or whim, or caprice, whatever it may be at this moment, because very obviously you are not in a cooperative frame of mind and that does not make for the best king of testimony; but you had better adjust yourself to this questioning, which is bound to come, so that a mere refusal today does not mean that you will not later have to testify. So you will please keep in mind that within a day or two you will be called to answer the very simple questions Court No. 2 - INTERROGATION which Dr. Bergold has indicated he wants to put to you.
Very well.
(The witness is excused.)
You have nothing further, Dr. Bergold?
Mr. Denney, you have nothing further?
The session is adjourned.
THE MARSHALL: Court is adjourned.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 20 February 1947 at 0930 hours.)
MR. DENNEY: Dr. Bergold, wasn't the last exhibit you put in Exhibit No. 47?
DR. BERGOLD: That is right; but the exhibits which I have still to submit are already numbered in the translation, and the present number -- I had to withdraw the previous number in order not to change the exhibit numbers I have already given. The rest of the exhibit numbers I will submit as soon as I have the translation.
MR. DENNEY: There are some more documents that are in the process of being translated and he has already assigned numbers to those. This keeps Dr. Bergol's records current. If Your Honors please, we would now like to offer the testimony of the witness, Miochalowski, which was taken on 21 December 1946, in the morning session, before Military Tribunal No. 1 Mr. Justice Beals presiding. We have assigned this the document number NOKW 561 -- 651; thank you-- and, at the proper time we will offer it as Exhibit No. 131, and we request that it be assigned No. 131 now, for identification.
THE PRESIDENT: It will be so marked.
MR. DENNEY: Thank you, sir. The first part, which I would like to read, appears on page 872, which is a page of the copy which Your Honors have, and it is some where around 911 or -12 in the German copy. It begins with Direct Examination by Mr. McHaney:
"Q. Your name is Leo Miochalowski?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When and where were you born, witness?
A. On the 22nd of March, 1909, in Babrzozne, Poland.
Q. Are you a citizen of Poland?
A. Yes.
Q. What is your present address, witness?
A. Raderherst, in the district of Minden, Westphalia.
Q. Are you a Catholic priest, witness?
A. Yes.
Q. And you are now a chaplain of the Polish Military Mission to the headquarters of the British Army of the Rhine?
A. Yes, and I am occupied and active now in the DP camp.
Q. What were you doing from 1933 until the war broke out?
A. I was minister in Poland at that time.
Q. Were you arrested by the Germans in 1939?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you explain to the Tribunal how that came about?
A. It had been announced that everybody had to report; if he failed to do so it would be punished by death, that they would have to report to the town major's office. I was convinced that this was a registration and accordingly went there. I was immediately arrested upon my arrival there.
Q. Did they tell you why you were arrested?
A. No, but later on I saw my warrant of arrest in prison.
Q. And did it give you any idea of why you were arrested?
A. Only warrant of arrest - it had been written, underlined with a red pencil.
Q. And that is the only reason which you know as to why you were arrested?
A. I was never charged and never called to any trial or any other legal proceedings.
Q. Were you at the time of your arrest teaching school in Swiecie, Poland?
A. During the previous time I had been a confessional teacher in the schools in Swiecie.
Q. Will you tell the Tribunal what happened to you after your arrest?
A. When I was arrested I was first kept in prison for two months and from there we were sent into a cloister and from there still other priests were assembled until about ninety priests had been assembled altogether, and from there we were sent to Stutthof near Danzig into the concentration camp which was located there.
And, from there on the fifth or ninth of February we were transferred to Sachsenhausen-Oranienburg which is located near Berlin. On the 13th of December 1940 we were transferred again to Dachau. I was confined in Dachau until the arrival of the Americans -- until we were liberated -- that was on the 29th of April 1945.
Q. Were you a political prisoner in Dachau?
A. Yes. I wore a rod insignia which all those who had been arrested for political reasons had to wear.
Q. Did there come a time when you were experimented on the concentration camp at Dachau?
A. Yes. Malaria experiments and also on one occasion we were engaged in high altitude experiments.
Q. Did you say high altitude experiments, Doctor?
A. No, I said aviation experiments.
Q. And what do you mean by aviation experiments?
A. Well, I have said it because we were dressed in aviator' uniforms and then we were put into containers full of water and ice."
And then, if Your Honors please, we move over to page 878 of the original transcript, which is approximately 917 of the German; I believe, the fifth paragraph on the page -- the copy you have, Dr. Bergold. Going down there to the third question:
Q. Will you now tell the Tribunal about this other experiment?
A. During these malaria attacks on one occasion I was called by Dr. Prachtel and I was examined by a Polish physician, and Dr. Prachtel told me, "If I have any use for you, I will call you."
However, I did not know what was going to be done with me. Several days later, that was on the seventh of October, to 1942, a prisoner came and told me that I was/report to the hospital immediately. I thought that I was going to be examined at once, and I was taken through the malaria station to block 5 in Dachau, to the fourth floor of block 5. There-the so-called aviation room, the aviation experimental station was located there, and there was a fence, a wooden fence so that nobody could see what was inside, and I was led there, and there was a basin with water and ice which floated on the water. There were two tables, and there were two apparatus on there. Next to them there was a heap of clothing that consisted of uniforms, and Dr. Prachtel was there, two officers in Air Force uniforms. However, I do not know their names. Now I was told to undress. I undressed end I was examined. The physician then remarked that everything was in order. Now wires had been taped to my back, also in the lower rectum. Afterwards I had to wear my shirt, my drawers, but then afterwards I had to wear one of the uniforms which were lying there. Then I also had to wear a long pair of boots with cat's fur and one aviator's combination. And afterwards a tube was put around my neck and was filled with air. And afterwards the wires which had been connected with me -- they were connected to the apparatus, and then I was thrown in to the water. All of a sudden I became very cold, and I began to tremble. I immediately turned to those two men and asked them to pull me out of the water because I would be unable to stand it much longer. However, they told me laughingly, "Well, this will only last a very short time." I sat in this water, and I hadand I was conscious for one hour and a half. I do not know exactly because I did not have a watch, but that is the approximate time I spent there.
"During this time the temperature was lowered very slowly in the beginning and afterwards more rapidly. When I was thrown into the water my temperature was lowered very slowly in the beginning and afterwards more rapidly. When I was thrown into the water my temperature was 37.6. Then the temperature became lower. Then I only had 33 and then as low as 30, but then I already became somewhat unconscious and every fifteen minutes some blood was taken from my ear. After having sat in the water for about half an hour, I was offered a cigarette, which, however, I did not want to smoke. However, one of these men appreached and gave me the cigarette, and the nurse who stood near the basin continued to put this cigarette into my mouth and pulled it out again.
I managed to smoke about half of this cigarette. Later on I was given a little glass with Schnaps, and then I was asked how I was feeling. Somewhat later still I was given one cup of Grog. This Grog was not very hot. It was rather luke warm. I was freezing very much in this water. Now my feet were becoming as rigid as iron, and the same thing applied to my hands, and later on my breathing became very short. I once again began to tremble, and afterwards cold sweat appeared on my forehead. I felt as if I was just about to die, and then I was still asking them to pull me out because I could not stand this much longer.
"Then Dr. Prachtel came and he had a little bottle, and he gave me a few drops of some liquid out of this bottle, and I did not know anything about this liquid. It had a somewhat sweetish taste. Then I lost my consciousness. I do not know how much longer I remained in the water because I was unconscious. When I again regained consciousness, it was approximately between 8 and 8:30 in the evening. I was lying on a stretcher covered with blankets, and above me there was some kind of an appliance with lamps which were warming me.
"In the room there was only Dr. Prachtel and two prisoners. Then Dr. Prachtel asked me how I was feeling. Then I replied, 'First of all, I feel very exhausted, and furthermore I am also very hungry.' Dr. Prachtel had immediately ordered that I was to be given better food and that I was also to lie in bed. One prisoner raised me on the stretcher, and he took me under his arm and he led me through the corridor to his room. During this time he spoke to me, and he told me, 'Well, you do not know what you have even suffered.' And in the room the prisoner gave me half a bottle of milk, one piece of bread and some potatoes, but that came from his own rations. Later on he took me to the malaria station, block 3, and there I was put to bed, and the very same evening a Polish prisoner -- it was a physician, his first name was Dr. Adam, but I do not remember his other name -- he came on official orders.