Court No. 2 - INTERROGATION
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Have you been attending the court sessions regularly?
THE WITNESS: On Thursday afternoon I was excused because I was no longer able to follow the proceedings. Then we had a four day recess, and yesterday afternoon I was again excused and today also.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Would you be willing to attempt to answer the questions, and then if after we have proceeded a sufficient time in which to determine how you are holding up, and you feel that is should be detrimental to your health to continue, then we will consider whether you should desist. Has the prison physician advised you on this one way or the other?
THE WITNESS: I an receiving additional food so I can get into a better physician condition. I weigh only fifty kilos, and at the moment I do not have the necessary control over myself to make statements here to testify, particularly, in view of the fact that I am a defendant in the other trial.
DR. BERGOLD: May I please say something. Witness, the questions I have to ask are very few in number, and very simple in nature, and they have nothing to do with your case.
THE WITNESS: Nevertheless, I should prefer to refrain and to postpone any such interrogation.
DR. BERGOLD: But witness, we have to get along with this trial. You have deposed and sworn to one affidavit, as you know.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
DR. BERGOLD: And the question is whether you have made a correct statement in matters that do not concern you but that concern Milch, and whether you wish to go ahead with your statement.
THE WITNESS: I still ask to be released from any interrogation.
DR. BERGOLD: The questions are so simple you could answer them without any difficulty whatsoever. I really must insist on that.
THE WITNESS: I refuse to testify. I can not.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, please give your first and last name?
A I refuse to testify. I can not.
Q Would you then not like to still make a statement as to your sworn Court No. 2 - INTERROGATION affidavit?
A I am not in a position to say anything about it. I can not.
DR. BERGOLD: I do not believe that. I am persuaded to say that you can testify, and that you are responding at this time in bad faith.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Witness, you still are able to respond intelligently to questions which are put to you, and you do not seem to be suffering any ill effects from them, from the short questioning which we already had, and certainly it can not hurt you any to respond to your name; so that it would seem that at this moment that your determination in refusing to answer is not because of my physical condition, but because of some barrier which you have set up in your mind in connection with your own case, so we will proceed for awhile, anyway. Now you will answer the questions which are put to you, and unless they in some way cause you to reply in a manner which would be injurious to your case, and to your health, but it must be reasonably obvious to us that it will have this deleterious effect, you will be called upon to answer the questions. Proceed counsel.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, please state your first and last name?
A Rudolf Emil Hermann Brandt.
Q When were you born, witness?
A 20 June 1909.
Q what was your last position during the Third Reich?
A I was Personnel Expert of the Reichfuehrer-SS.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Just a moment, Dr. Brandt.
DR. BERGOLD: Thank you.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Are you counsel for the witness?
DR. FLEMMING: Dr. Flemming, I am representing Dr. Kaufmann who is the witness' counsel.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Are you counsel for the witness.
DR. FLEMMING: I am representing the witness' counsel, who is on a trip.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Yes, very well.
Court No. 2 - INTERROGATION
DR. FLEMMING: Let me state my misgivings about interrogating Brandt at this time. Rudolf Brandt is under treatment by the prison physician. Physically he is in extraordinarily poor condition so that the Court in the First Trial yesterday afternoon and today excused him from the proceedings, Rudolf Brandt is also mentally, as we say in Germany, pretty confused. He is, in my opinion, at the moment not in a position to be heard as a witness. His testimony has not the complete value of witness' testimony at this time.
DR. BERGOLD: I cannot concur in this opinion of my colleague. I leave the decision to the Court.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Dr. Bergold, about what length of time in all would be consumed by your interrogation of the witness?
DR. BERGOLD: I think it might be 20 minutes.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: In view of what has just transpired, we think that perhaps psychologically, regarding the situation from all angles, that it might not be desirable to proceed at this moment. However, I would stand ready myself, to preside over this interrogation at any time. As this would only take 20 minutes or a half hour, I will be glad to do it in a recess period, or after court, or any time at all, and you can feel free to come to me and we will immediately set up in operation the courtroom for the purpose of taking the interrogation and we will allow the witness to think over this matter a half day or a day and then we will insist on interrogation.
I will say to you, witness, Herr Brandt, that ww have no desire to impose upon you the duty to answer the interrogations at this moment because if you feel that you are unable to answer them right now we are not going to insist. From your appearance and from what you have already said, we are not of the opinion that you are unable to testify but we are willing to accede to your wish, or whim, or caprice, whatever it may be at this moment, because very obviously you are not in a cooperative frame of mind and that does not make for the best king of testimony; but you had better adjust yourself to this questioning, which is bound to come, so that a mere refusal today does not mean that you will not later have to testify. So you will please keep in mind that within a day or two you will be called to answer the very simple questions Court No. 2 - INTERROGATION which Dr. Bergold has indicated he wants to put to you.
Very well.
(The witness is excused.)
You have nothing further, Dr. Bergold?
Mr. Denney, you have nothing further?
The session is adjourned.
THE MARSHALL: Court is adjourned.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 20 February 1947 at 0930 hours.)
MR. DENNEY: Dr. Bergold, wasn't the last exhibit you put in Exhibit No. 47?
DR. BERGOLD: That is right; but the exhibits which I have still to submit are already numbered in the translation, and the present number -- I had to withdraw the previous number in order not to change the exhibit numbers I have already given. The rest of the exhibit numbers I will submit as soon as I have the translation.
MR. DENNEY: There are some more documents that are in the process of being translated and he has already assigned numbers to those. This keeps Dr. Bergol's records current. If Your Honors please, we would now like to offer the testimony of the witness, Miochalowski, which was taken on 21 December 1946, in the morning session, before Military Tribunal No. 1 Mr. Justice Beals presiding. We have assigned this the document number NOKW 561 -- 651; thank you-- and, at the proper time we will offer it as Exhibit No. 131, and we request that it be assigned No. 131 now, for identification.
THE PRESIDENT: It will be so marked.
MR. DENNEY: Thank you, sir. The first part, which I would like to read, appears on page 872, which is a page of the copy which Your Honors have, and it is some where around 911 or -12 in the German copy. It begins with Direct Examination by Mr. McHaney:
"Q. Your name is Leo Miochalowski?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When and where were you born, witness?
A. On the 22nd of March, 1909, in Babrzozne, Poland.
Q. Are you a citizen of Poland?
A. Yes.
Q. What is your present address, witness?
A. Raderherst, in the district of Minden, Westphalia.
Q. Are you a Catholic priest, witness?
A. Yes.
Q. And you are now a chaplain of the Polish Military Mission to the headquarters of the British Army of the Rhine?
A. Yes, and I am occupied and active now in the DP camp.
Q. What were you doing from 1933 until the war broke out?
A. I was minister in Poland at that time.
Q. Were you arrested by the Germans in 1939?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you explain to the Tribunal how that came about?
A. It had been announced that everybody had to report; if he failed to do so it would be punished by death, that they would have to report to the town major's office. I was convinced that this was a registration and accordingly went there. I was immediately arrested upon my arrival there.
Q. Did they tell you why you were arrested?
A. No, but later on I saw my warrant of arrest in prison.
Q. And did it give you any idea of why you were arrested?
A. Only warrant of arrest - it had been written, underlined with a red pencil.
Q. And that is the only reason which you know as to why you were arrested?
A. I was never charged and never called to any trial or any other legal proceedings.
Q. Were you at the time of your arrest teaching school in Swiecie, Poland?
A. During the previous time I had been a confessional teacher in the schools in Swiecie.
Q. Will you tell the Tribunal what happened to you after your arrest?
A. When I was arrested I was first kept in prison for two months and from there we were sent into a cloister and from there still other priests were assembled until about ninety priests had been assembled altogether, and from there we were sent to Stutthof near Danzig into the concentration camp which was located there.
And, from there on the fifth or ninth of February we were transferred to Sachsenhausen-Oranienburg which is located near Berlin. On the 13th of December 1940 we were transferred again to Dachau. I was confined in Dachau until the arrival of the Americans -- until we were liberated -- that was on the 29th of April 1945.
Q. Were you a political prisoner in Dachau?
A. Yes. I wore a rod insignia which all those who had been arrested for political reasons had to wear.
Q. Did there come a time when you were experimented on the concentration camp at Dachau?
A. Yes. Malaria experiments and also on one occasion we were engaged in high altitude experiments.
Q. Did you say high altitude experiments, Doctor?
A. No, I said aviation experiments.
Q. And what do you mean by aviation experiments?
A. Well, I have said it because we were dressed in aviator' uniforms and then we were put into containers full of water and ice."
And then, if Your Honors please, we move over to page 878 of the original transcript, which is approximately 917 of the German; I believe, the fifth paragraph on the page -- the copy you have, Dr. Bergold. Going down there to the third question:
Q. Will you now tell the Tribunal about this other experiment?
A. During these malaria attacks on one occasion I was called by Dr. Prachtel and I was examined by a Polish physician, and Dr. Prachtel told me, "If I have any use for you, I will call you."
However, I did not know what was going to be done with me. Several days later, that was on the seventh of October, to 1942, a prisoner came and told me that I was/report to the hospital immediately. I thought that I was going to be examined at once, and I was taken through the malaria station to block 5 in Dachau, to the fourth floor of block 5. There-the so-called aviation room, the aviation experimental station was located there, and there was a fence, a wooden fence so that nobody could see what was inside, and I was led there, and there was a basin with water and ice which floated on the water. There were two tables, and there were two apparatus on there. Next to them there was a heap of clothing that consisted of uniforms, and Dr. Prachtel was there, two officers in Air Force uniforms. However, I do not know their names. Now I was told to undress. I undressed end I was examined. The physician then remarked that everything was in order. Now wires had been taped to my back, also in the lower rectum. Afterwards I had to wear my shirt, my drawers, but then afterwards I had to wear one of the uniforms which were lying there. Then I also had to wear a long pair of boots with cat's fur and one aviator's combination. And afterwards a tube was put around my neck and was filled with air. And afterwards the wires which had been connected with me -- they were connected to the apparatus, and then I was thrown in to the water. All of a sudden I became very cold, and I began to tremble. I immediately turned to those two men and asked them to pull me out of the water because I would be unable to stand it much longer. However, they told me laughingly, "Well, this will only last a very short time." I sat in this water, and I hadand I was conscious for one hour and a half. I do not know exactly because I did not have a watch, but that is the approximate time I spent there.
"During this time the temperature was lowered very slowly in the beginning and afterwards more rapidly. When I was thrown into the water my temperature was lowered very slowly in the beginning and afterwards more rapidly. When I was thrown into the water my temperature was 37.6. Then the temperature became lower. Then I only had 33 and then as low as 30, but then I already became somewhat unconscious and every fifteen minutes some blood was taken from my ear. After having sat in the water for about half an hour, I was offered a cigarette, which, however, I did not want to smoke. However, one of these men appreached and gave me the cigarette, and the nurse who stood near the basin continued to put this cigarette into my mouth and pulled it out again.
I managed to smoke about half of this cigarette. Later on I was given a little glass with Schnaps, and then I was asked how I was feeling. Somewhat later still I was given one cup of Grog. This Grog was not very hot. It was rather luke warm. I was freezing very much in this water. Now my feet were becoming as rigid as iron, and the same thing applied to my hands, and later on my breathing became very short. I once again began to tremble, and afterwards cold sweat appeared on my forehead. I felt as if I was just about to die, and then I was still asking them to pull me out because I could not stand this much longer.
"Then Dr. Prachtel came and he had a little bottle, and he gave me a few drops of some liquid out of this bottle, and I did not know anything about this liquid. It had a somewhat sweetish taste. Then I lost my consciousness. I do not know how much longer I remained in the water because I was unconscious. When I again regained consciousness, it was approximately between 8 and 8:30 in the evening. I was lying on a stretcher covered with blankets, and above me there was some kind of an appliance with lamps which were warming me.
"In the room there was only Dr. Prachtel and two prisoners. Then Dr. Prachtel asked me how I was feeling. Then I replied, 'First of all, I feel very exhausted, and furthermore I am also very hungry.' Dr. Prachtel had immediately ordered that I was to be given better food and that I was also to lie in bed. One prisoner raised me on the stretcher, and he took me under his arm and he led me through the corridor to his room. During this time he spoke to me, and he told me, 'Well, you do not know what you have even suffered.' And in the room the prisoner gave me half a bottle of milk, one piece of bread and some potatoes, but that came from his own rations. Later on he took me to the malaria station, block 3, and there I was put to bed, and the very same evening a Polish prisoner -- it was a physician, his first name was Dr. Adam, but I do not remember his other name -- he came on official orders.
He told me, Everything that has happened to you is a military secret. You are not to discuss it with anybody. If you fail to do so, you know what the consequences will be for you. You are 1470 a intelligent enough to know that.
Of course, I fully realized that I had to keep quiet about that.
"On one occasion I had discussed these experiences with one of my comrades. One of the nurses found out about this and he came to see me and he asked me if I was already tired of living because I was talking about such matters. But, in the way these experiments were conducted, I do not need to add anything to it.
Q. How long was it before you recovered from the effects of these freezing experiments?
A. It took a long time. I also have had several -- I have had a rather weak heart and I have also had severe headaches, and I also get cramps in my foot very often.
Q. Do you still suffer from the effects of this experiment?
A. I still have a weak heart. For example, I am unable to walk very quickly now, and I also have to sweat very much. Exactly these are the results, but in many cases I have had these afflictions ever since.
Q. Were you in good physical condition before you were subject to the malaria and freezing experiments.
A. Since the time of this starvation I weighed 57 kilograms in Dachau, When I came to the camp I weighed about one hundred kilograms. I lost about one-half of my weight. In the beginning, I was weighed, and I was inbed for about a week. And then my weight went down to 47 kilo.
Q. How much do you weigh now?
A. I cannot tell you exactly. I have not weighed myself lately, but I think at this time I weighed fifty-five kilograms.
Q. Do you **** *** you were rewarmed in these freezing experiments?
A. I was warmed with these lamps, but I heard later that people were rewarmed by women.
Q. Do you know approximately how many inmates were subjected to the freezing experiments?
A. I cannot tell you anything about this because it was kept so secret, and because I was in there quite individually and I was quite single During this experiment.
"Q. Do you know whether anyone died as a result of this experiment?
"A. I cannot give you any information about that either. I have not seen anybody. But it was said in camp that quite a number of people died there during this experiment.
"Q. Do you know anything about the low-pressure experiments that were carried oat in Dachau?
"A. Only that I heard that such experiments were conducted out there with hermetically-sealed apparatus.
"Q. You have no personal Knowledge about these things?
"A. No. Nobody was admitted there. It was also kept very secret.
"Q. Now what about the dry freezing experiments?
"A. Also these experiments, however, during this time occurred out there; and it was also said that people were left lying, there in the frost and to freeze, but as I have already said, I have not seen it, but I have heard of it. But all of that is supposed to have done in the same Aviation Experimental Station."
Your Honors, please, that concludes that part of the testi mony which we would like to submit. The other matters are not relevant. They have to do with facts on other issues, and that concludes the documents which we nave available at this time. We may have two witnesses later this afternoon; I am not sure. I haven't talked to them yet. They were supposed to arrive at one-thirty. They were not here when I came over to court, and although it will be taking them out of order, I thought, perhaps, it might save the Court's time in we did put them on now. As I say, I don't know that they are here. They are coming from some distance, and I haven't had an opportunity to find out since coming to court.
***1472***
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the members of the Tribunal will be a vailable for the rest of the afternoon, and the Tribunal will reconvene if your witnesses do become available.
If you will let us know, we will immediately reconvene.
1472 a The witness for the Defense, Vorwald, is expected sometime today, and it is hoped he will be available to testify in the morning.
Do you have some further documents, Dr. Bergold?
DR. BERGOLD: Not at the present moment.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there some more in the process of translation?
DR. BERGOLD: They are still being translated. There are some supplements. They will not take very long to read, ten or fifteen minutes, perhaps.
I have had then in German for some time but the English translation hasn't reached me yet.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Denney, did you find out anything about the English translation of these documents?
MR. DENNEY: No, sir. I didn't inquire about those.
THE PRESIDENT: I believe you said you were going to do that.
MR. DENNEY: Well, if I did, Your Honor, I forgot. I will - the only thing I have asked about were Raeder, Neurath, Speer and this ...
THE PRESIDENT: Well, will you inquire about the English translations of the documents that Dr. Bergold refers to?
MR. DENNEY: Yes, I will, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: So that they can be introduced possibly tomorrow?
MR. DENNEY: Yes, Your Honor, I shall.
THE PRESIDENT: The Court will not recess for the day, but it is simply pro tem, and we will reconvene any time you advise us that you are ready with the other witnesses. If that doesn't happen before five o'clock, we will assume that it won't happen thereafter.
MR. DENNEY: Very well, Your Honor.
DR. BERGOLD: I have a request to make, Your Honors. May I ask to give the defendant a copy of the record of the Central Planning Board meeting of 16 February? That is in connection with the big chart which was handed in.
THE PRESIDENT: In connection with what?
DR. BERGOLD: With the trial of the 4.5 million workers.
THE PRESIDENT: You mean ...
DR. BERGOLD: That chart contained pencil notes by the defendant. It is a photostatic copy, a great big document with pencilled notes by the defendant.
MR. DENNEY: Are you referring to the document that we brought the original of down?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, that is the document.
MR. DENNEY: I don't know what he wanted. I was thinking of a wall chart.
I don't have any wall chart or anything like that.
DR. BERGOLD: No. No. No. No. It is a list of workers. It is a list of workers and the defendant made personal pencil notes on them.
MR. DENNEY: Where Milch made notes in red pencil on them?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes. Yes.
MR. DENNEY: Well, we will be very glad to do anything that you want with it. What do you want, Doctor? Do you want me to get it for you?
DR. BERGOLD: No. I want to submit the fifty-third meeting of the Central Planning Beard so that he can compare his notes with the record of the meeting of the Central Planning Beard.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you want the original exhibit?
DR. BERGOLD: No. No. It is a photostatic copy, sir.
JUDGE MUSSMANO: Mr. Denney, does he refer to that chart which you introduced in the very early stages of your presentation of the slave labor case? The photostatic copy of the chart?
MR. DENNEY: Yes.
JUDGE MUSSMANO: All he desires is that you procure such a copy and let him have it.
MR. DENNEY: Well, we gave him a copy of it. The trouble with the photostatic part is that the defendant's notes are in red pencil and red pencil doesn't photostat, if Your Honor please.
DR. BERGOLD: This refers to the fifty-third meeting of the Central Planning Board, and that fifty-third meeting of the Central Planning Board, I have the stenographic report, and the defendant would like to read that record cf the fifty-third meeting in order to prepare his own interrogation, because on the basis of that conference he can explain the figures off that list.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you want the English translation?
MR. DENNEY: No. No. No. No. He has the German right here.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes.
MR. DENNEY: All he has to do is give it to him.
DR. BERGOLD: But I must have the Court's permission to give this document to the defendant Milch.
Lt. Garrett says I can't do it otherwise.
MR. DENNEY: Certainly we have no objection to showing the defendant anything.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, regardless of what Lt. Garrett says, show the defendant anything that you have. Is that what you want?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes. Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Go ahead. Before I am subjected to another deep sea experiment, is there anything further?
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honors please, we have nothing further at this time.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, we will retire to dry land and await your summoning
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal is in recess until such time as they reconvene today.
(A recess was taken.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 5 March 1947, 1100, Justice Tems, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal 2.
Military Tribunal is now in session. God save the United States of America and his honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the courtroom.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please this Tribunal, first of all I would like to introduce my supplements to my Document Book Number 1.
As the first supplement I should like to introduce Exhibit Number 47. This is an excerpt from the Proclamation Number 2 of the Allied Control Council. This in itself is a legal clause which has been released by the Control Council for the German people, and therefore I would appreciate it if judicial notice be taken of it. I shall read that proclamation. This is Section VI, Paragraph 19, letter a.
"The German authorities will carry out, for the benefit of a he Unit id Nations, such measures of restitution, reinstatement, restoration, reparation, reconstruction, relief and rehabilitation as the Allied Representatives may prescribe. For these purposes the German authorities will effect or recure the surrender of transfer of such property, assets, rights, titles and interests, effect such deliveries and carry out such repair, building and construction work, whether in Germany or elsewhere, and will provide such transport, plant, equipment and materials of all kind, labor, personnel and specialists and other services, for use in Germany or elsewhere, as the Allied Representatives may direct."
What can be seen from this decree I will show in my final plea. I shall prove that although the Hague Convention was also decreed here, that labor, on orders of the Allies, was put or had to be put at the disposal of the Allies outside of Germany by the Germans. I would like to introduce now Exhibit 48. This is an excerpt from the speech of Hermann Goering on 1 February 1943, at the Aviation Ministry speaking to the working class in Germany.
"Reich edition of the 'Frankfurter Zeitung' of 3 February 1943, 87th year, No. 61 to 62, page number 4". I shall now read from the speech of the Reich Marshal.
"And now, my comrades, whether Field Marshal or raw recruit, I wish you all to weigh for a moment in your mind in what situation our Fuehrer was when, with the political instinct of a genius, he clearly recognized this deadly peril. Certainly, there were some weak-kneed people who said: the Union of Soviet Republics has three, four, five times as many armored vehicles, ten times as many airplanes as we have. The Union of Soviet Republics has just for the first time permitted German engineers to visit her arms factories. They are the biggest we can imagine. Therefore for Heaven's sake, do not touch her, do not irritate her. Such is always the attitude of cowards and it is not for nothing that the ostrich is called the Bird of Cowardice. And thus there were also at that time people in Germany who imitated the ostrich. That this burying-the-head-in-the-sand would me an the destruction of Germany, they did not want to see or hear."
The examination of the defendant will show that this passage here was addressed at the defendant, let us say. He was called a weakling.
I shall now proceed to Exhibit Number 49. This is an excerpt from the decision of the people's Commissars Court of the USSR of 1-7-41, Number 1798 to 80406. This decree has already been introduced before the International Military Tribunal by the Russian delegation itself. It reads as follows: "Decree about Prisoners of War. IV. Regulations about Work by Prisoners of War." I shall read now Paragraph 20.
"Prisoners of war of non-commissioned rank and private soldiers may be used for work in industry and agriculture in USSR inside and outside the Camp, in accordance with the special regulations which have been worked out by the "... we have a few abbreviations here, and we probably don't know what they mean. They probably come from the chief of the prisoners of war and they have been worked out by him, "Officers and prisoners of equal rank may only be used for work with this own consent."