Q. Then, Strasshof, in other words, the place where you came from is in the so-called unoccupied zone?
A. Yes, what you could have called the non-occupied zone.
Q. When did the occupation rf the French Coast and the Pyrenees take place?
A. That must have been between one and three months before I left for Germany, because at that time I was in the Youth Camp and at that time: that is, three months, perhaps three months before I left for Germany the occupation of this non-occupied zone took place.
Q. Now I am coming back again. From Strasshof you went to Fishamend, didn't you?
A. Yes, that is correct.
A. And in Fishamend you received a meal, but I did not quite understand what kind of food it was. It was the so-called stangit or stangerit. Is that What we call in Germany -- I believe you have heard that expression before -- is that what we call a stow Einneitstepf.
A. No, stangerit is exactly the German name. That's what the Germans called it. Yes, certainly.
Q. Just a moment witness. I have never heard that expression before in my life.
A. I am very sorry, but perhaps I imagined that. Perhaps it is Austrian dialect. I am glad to say I haven't seen all the parts of Germany but perhaps it's a part of this.
THE PRESIDENT: Can we stop this discussion by agreeing that stangerit is a dish?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, indeed, we can do that all right, your Honor.
Q. Witness, then you arrived at Wiener Neustadt, and there you said-you mentioned before word by word -- we got to Wiener Neustadt and in the works of Neustadt which belonged to Goering.
A. Yes, that is correct. At least, everybody said so.
Q. Then you spoke about the food in Wiener Neustadt and you told us that you got coffee with 150 grams of bread in the morning, and in the evening that stangerit Didn't you get anything to eat at noon?
A Yes, I told the Tribunal already that we received red beets, Harvard beets.
Q. I see, well, the translation did not come through before that you did.
A I specified that I had red beets for lunch. That was not exactly an advantage to have red beets, because we were far more sick afterwards.
Q. Now, could you tell us, in that factory was there also a factorykitchen, for the German workers there?
A I must specify that when I gave this description about the food I referred to the time when I was still in apprenticeship. At that time we did not eat together with the Germans. We started to eat together with the German workers only when I was in that workshop and that is when we were considered skilled labor, and then the food, as I said to the Tribunal this morning, the food improved.
Q. Is that the food which you had together with the German workers?
A Yes, that's the food we got together with the German workers. But I must specify
Q. That is not necessary. Do not specify.
A. I would like to specify this question, to give some details.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please this Tribunal, in Germany there wasn't too much to eat at that time anyway, not as much as in France or in America.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, that isn't the question. If the witness wishes to qualify his answer he may do so.
A (Cont'd) I want to stress the point that after all, the workers the German worker who worked in that factory had really enough to eat and to oat quite good food because he received additional rations which were withdrawn from the rations of people who did not work in the armament factories.
Q Were there special allotments for workers who preformed on hard labor?
A No, that was not specifically the additional ration for workers who had especially difficult tasks. We might say it otherwise, whoever worked in the armament factory, whether it was very heavy work or less heavy work, would receive three of four times as much to eat as somebody else who just did some work, who washed dishes or something like that. It was quite easy to call that additional rations, but, of course, everybody who worked in an Armament factory, even if his work was not heavy work, would receive those so-called additional rations, except, of course, for the French workers or Belgian and Serbian workers. Even the milk had been suppressed from some workers who had work as painters in the factory. They had been sick and they wouldn't receive any milk because the milk is the counter poison against the poisoning which is caused by this paint.
Q Witness, you mentioned before that you were paid 140 reichsmarks a month. Was that the gross or the net amount?
A That was -- at that time when I received 140 marks as a maximum, that was my net income, and I want to specify that I only received this maximum salary during the period of three months; that is, August, September and October, because in November I already left, and then I wouldn't get it any more.
Q The so-called taxes had already been deducted from the amount of 140 marks, isn't that correct?
A Yes, of course.
Q You spoke before of a victory tax. Is that the correct term to use? Or was it called an additional tax for war purposes and for incomes?
A Well, of course I didn't know German and I couldn't read these columns I had in that account we received, but my comrades, that is, the German meister, this manager of the workshop always told me -- "That, that is to win the war. "I can not give any more details."
EXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Witness, you said that 140 marks was your net pay. Does that mean after the taxes had been taken out you had 140 marks left?
A. Yes, the net. In that month I had 140 marks left and I actually get 140 marks, but I must add that this pay, this salary is the highest I have ever had during all the time I stayed in the factory, and as an explanation I may add that that was at the time when I had been punished by the Gestapo and after my arrest I had been put in that especially severe workshop where I had to work very hard, and it was piece work there and of course, was paid accordingly, and the pay was higher. And as I couldn't just stand around, and as I had to work anyhow, that is the reason why I received more money.
Q. Well, had the cost of your and lodging been taken out before you got the 140 marks?
A. No.
Q. Then the 140 Marks was after taxes, but you still had to pay your living expenses from that?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. After you had paid your living expanses how much of the 140 marks did you have left?
A. There wasn't much left because above all, whatever was left I used because I had some debts and I had to pay off what I owed.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please this Tribunal, this net amount of 140 marks was the normal income of a German worker in Germany.
BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, you told us that you had refused to sign a slip that had been shown to you or a document which seemed very important?
A Yes.
Q How did you know that that document or that paper was very important?
A Well, we had no proper sources of information; but you know how that happens. The first person who went in would pass on the information to the next one; and some of us knew German. They would come and would say, "Don't sign that." The word "Verpflichtung," that is, tho word, "labor obligation," came in; and then some people told us, "Don't sign it because that is important."
Q In other words, you believe that it was the contract, the working contract, you had there?
A I couldn't say that because nothing afterwards made mo think that that was the labor contract.
Q You just said that tho word "obligation" was in there and furthermore that people had told y u that this was a contract.
A No. Of course, tho word "obligation" came in insofar as these people told us, "If you sign that, that may put some obligation on you. You will sign for something; and that night be a sort of oath you have to swear." We were told all sorts of things at that time; but nobody told us that was a contract. It might have been; then again it might not have been. We didn't have any proof of it anyhow.
Q You had interpreters in the camp, didn't you?
A Yes, of course we had interpreters; but those interpreters we saw once a day when they wanted to talk to us. Only after two weeks had passed that is, when the other convoys, the other transports arrived, then the first French interpreters wore authorized to talk to the prisoners.
Q Didn't you ever ask these interpreters what kind of a document this was; what kind of a paper it was?
A. There was a Croatian interpreter, and we asked him; but we had no confidence in that fellow. Besides, he snubbed us every time we talked to him and gave us uncivil answers. He would just answer yes or no. Besides that, if I have to talk frankly, all these interpreters had to be bribed. For instance, this interpreter wanted to be in the favor of the Germans obviously; and if yon wanted to get something out of all of these interpreters, you had to pay them on the black market. Of course there were German interpreters in t he camp; but we were considered so very unimportant that whenever a group of us or even several groups of us made a request to talk to some of these interpreters, then the chief of the camp would send us away with some beatings, or he would call us whatever names he could find.
Q. You spoke of the fact that on the 25th November, 1943, you received some sort of a leave by some clever, and shrewd action?
A. Yes.
Q. From your camp or from this factory there, the Messerschmitt Works, did any French workers ever go on leave before?
A. About half of those who were married.
Q. I see. And these French workers, had they come before you had arrived or had they arrived at the sometime with you?
A. Yes, there were some of those who had come before I had. Those were the specialized workers of whom I have already talked. There were about thirty-eight of them, thirty-six to thirty-eight; and we may add thirty more of this category which I mentioned this morning, people who had procured false, phoney certificates of somebody in their family who was ill. They had procured those certificates before they ever came over. Of course, there were some others, perhaps fifteen or twenty-- I couldn't indicate an exact figure--who had bribed the chief engineer or somebody at the Labor Office or somebody at the Labor Front or somebody else. They left because they had secretly received either money or some object of value from home or else they had sold their watches and bribed these people with the proceeds of the sale.
Q Witness, you said that you had eight days' leave and that you took twelve days' leave. Now, where did you spend these eight days of sick leave?
A In the camp. I had to collect wood in tho nearby forest in order to keep myself warm.
Q Where did you collect that wood? Outside of the camp or --?
A Yes, outside of the camp. Yes, but wait a minute. Of course I had to leave the camp secretly. I just crept through some hole in the barbed wire. I had to be very careful about it, too, because if somebody encountered you in the camp while you were not at work, then it was the Gestapo right away, questioning, and disciplinary action. They sent you to some harder work or they took away your food or anything of that kind.
Q Witness, this morning upon a question of one of the judges, I believe you said that the barracks were outside of the camp and it was not surrounded by barbed wire.
A If you want to know exactly what I said this morning, I said that in the first barrack before we were at the apprenticeship, we were outside of the camp and there was no barbed wire around. But that camp burned; and afterwards we were brought to a camp near the Heinkel factory. That is exactly what I said this morning.
Q Oh, I see. What you said right now refers to the camp hear tho Heinkel factory, the one with the barbed wire? Is that correct?
A Yes, I was there; and that was at the end of my stay.
Q When did you get to that camp near the Heinkel works?
A That was about ten or twelve days before the air raid of the 12th of August.
Q Prior to that you spent all these months without barbed wire around you; is that right?
A No. I want to give you some more details again. Before we were brought into apprenticeship, we were in this barracks, this one barrack; but that was only for eight or ten days. Then we came in to the first camp, which was a hundred yards away from our own factory and where we were with Serbs, Croates, and so forth, as I said, before this camp burned. Then afterwards we came in to the camp which was near the Heinkel factory, which was also surrounded by barbed wire.
Q Was that camp, the first camp that burned down, surrounded with barbed wire as well?
A Yes. There were six ranges of barbed wire.
Q You had no freedom whatsoever to leave the camp and to go to town, did you?
A Yes, once we were at the apprenticeship, but only outside of the working hours and in the evening until 10:00 o'clock.
Q Now, you don't quite understand my question. I'm not talking about the rest of the time. I'm talking about the moment after you became a regular worker at the factory. Could you then leave the camp outside of working hours? Could you, for instance, in order to go to town to make certain purchases there or for other reasons?
A. Yes, of course, until 10:00 o'clock in the evening.
Q. When you went to town you were not guarded, were you?
A. No, generally there Was no guards when we went to town, but I may add that first of all we were far too tired to go to town, that therefore we went very rarely, and besides that we had no money to buy anything, anyhow.
Q. That is a different natter altogether. Theoretically, you did have the possibility to go to town?
A. Yes, theoretically.
Q. You said before concerning the supervision by the Gestapo, in that instance, did you talk with the civilian population outside of the factory concerning the surveying you had? Did you ever talk to young girls after all you were still a young man.
A. First of all I may tell you we could not talk with any girls because first of all for a girl it meant five years of imprisonment, and for us it was that famous disciplinary camp, but besides that I actually talked with civilians, and especially with the Green Grocer, and there was an old lady there, and she always used to ask, "my God, my God, was there again somebody in your camp today who had been punished." Otherwise, we had only the right to talk to persons in the workshop during the working hours.
Q. Witness, your statement which you made now, is certainly not accurate. Isn't it correct that speaking with girls was always forbidden to French prisoners of war. I know the German laws, and I defended quite a few people because they had spoken to prisoners of war, and you were not a prisoner of war, is that correct?
A. May I call the attention of the counsel for the defense to the fact that I have sworn sometime ago that I am going to say the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, that I am a Frenchman, and that I shall stick to that oath and if I do say something here in court it is because I am convinced in what I do say because other persons have told me that.
Besides that, we were always told that at the factory, if you talk to a German girl, then she will be punished and you will be sent away.
Q. Who told you that, witness?
A. Well, that was one of the first things that the manager of the workshop or the meister told us. He made a lot of recommendations and one of the things he told us was precisely this question, not only he, but also the foreman and when ho came to the factory, the chief of engineers would tell us the same thing. Besides that, if you want details, there was one of my comrades, a Frenchman from Saint Amand, in the Province of Chere; he had got into the habit of making his purchases together with a young German girl, and after sometime we never saw her again, and ho had two weeks of prison.
DR. BERGOLD: Your Honor, I wish to show by counter evidence that there is quite a number of people who will testify against that.
THE PRESIDENT: It is not important enough to bring testimony in to refute that.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Tribunal, I am of the opinion that if this witness tells this kind of story, or these kind of stories, that I must have the right to show that the statement made by the witness is not quite correct, and that there might even bo an exaggeration. I must have this right. I always agree -- I only agreed to the examination of the witness if the Prosecution permits me to bring more decisions after the first closing of the case, and that I myself must bring more evidence; the Tribunal has informed me I could bring in such evidence to refute the statement made here by the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: That is quite true. You can impeach any witness but it must be on some important and/or material point, and not on some trivial point. Suppose, for example, the witness had said that he had left Paris at three o'clock in the afternoon, and that you wanted to bring fifty witnesses to say it was ten minutes after three, and it does not make any difference what time he did leave Paris. In other words, if you are going to impeach the witness to show he is not telling the truth, it must be with reference to some important or essential question in the case, and not on collateral or trivial points, otherwise, we could spread the questions out for months and months.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honor please, this witness would be a rebuttal witness, and we only called him at this time to try to facilitate the proceedings, and. certainly Dr. Bergold entertains no idea that after we have rebuttal witnesses, he can again call witnesses to refute what they said. Ye proved through documents which were submitted that foreigners were brought forcibly into Germany, statements by this defendant made at meetings where he was present. A long parade of witnesses has come up, they come up here and testify to the excellent conditions that existed, that meals could be eaten off the floor, in answer to a question by His Honor Judge Musmanno, and by other witnesses that nothing ever happened; then this witness was brought, and we will produce another one who will testify to what did happen there. This is part of our case in reputtal, but if Dr. Bergold thinks he can parade another long queue in here to again substantiate what he is trying to make out from some of the witnesses who have been produced, I submit that is ridiculous.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, we will meet the situation when it arises, Mr. Denney. It has not arisen as yet.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please this Tribunal. I must submit the sharpest objections to Mr. Denney's statement. Mr. Denney brings one single witness, perhaps even two witnesses in here, and, Your Honors, in Germany this is called a diabolical introduction of evidence, and it is very easy in such an enormous organization to find certain discrepancies and even three or four witnesses cannot give the general picture of the situation. I myself, for instance, could tell you that my own son, who was a prisoner in France, was hearten by the Frenchmen until he bled. I could tell you in his transport comrades of his were killed, stoned, and killed by other means. Those are a few examples and a few excesses which cannot be generalized, and I am not the person to say that General De Gaulle is to be blamed for this. I know that if millions of people are working against each other certain excessive actions will occur; that among the millions of people there are always people who ere bad. That cannot be avoided. I could also tell of several other instances; however, if such witnesses are brought in, I must be given the opportunity to explain or to rebut these witnesses with other witnesses, in order to prove that this was not the general condition which prevailed there.
THE PRESIDENT: The thing you want to do is to bring in witnesses to prove that it was no offense for him to talk to fraeuleins in the camp. With that we are not concerned or interested. A witness testifying as to living conditions, cruelties, and mistreatment is another thing; that is different; but you were talking about, and the first thing that brought this all up here was your statement that you would bring in hundreds of witnesses to show that he was allowed to talk to fraeuleins.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, but may it please Your Honor, I am of the opinion that the witness's statement is not quite correct, and when I have to be able to prove that with regard to a point which he must know, or he should know that he did not make a correct statement of.
THE PRESIDENT: This is right from where we started. It is where we came in. All right, let's go ahead now - I mean, let's stop now and resume court tomorrow morning at 9.30 o'clock. The session will be heard in the regular court room, No. 581.
THE MARSHALL: This Tribunal is in recess until 0930 tomorrow morning in Courtroom No II, in room 581.
(Thereupon adjournment was taken to 0930 hours, 6 March 1947.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the Matter of the United States of America against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 6 March 1947, 0945-1630 hours, Justice Toms presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.
Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
ROLAND FERRIER - - Continued CROSS EXAMINATION - - Resumed BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, you told us yesterday that you had been in a camp near this factory near Wiener Neustadt. When did you go into the camp?
A What camp are you speaking of, the camp where I went when I left Fishament?
Q Where you started as an expert worker.
A The first camp that I came into when I was a skilled worker was the camp which was about a hundred yards from the factory. I stayed in this camp for seven to eight days, and afterwards the camp burned.
Q Do you know when the other camp was built? I mean the one near the Henke-Works, to which you came later.
A We already had some knowledge of the existence of this camp before we got into the camp itself. We knew about it even when we arrived at WienerNeustadt. The Serbs and Croates had told us that such a camp existed, but, of course, we had no formal knowledge of it. We only knew about it when we actually came there, and they told us that the camp was about four to five miles from where our camp, the camp in which we were located at that time, was situated.
Q I infer now that this camp already existed before the first air raid.
A Yes, it existed already at that time. Besides that, this camp was under construction and was being enlarged all the time while I was down there.
Q You told us yesterday that the Germans from Wieder-Neustadt did not believe that these factories could be attacked by the American Airforce because they were outside the range of the Airforces.
A Yes, that is exact.
Q Witness, then I do not quite understand how you came to the conclusion which you made before this Tribunal yesterday. You said to this Tribunal yesterday that you were of the opinion that these camps were so close to the factories in order to protect the factories. If the camps already existed before the first attack, and if, in your opinion, the Germans thought that the factories would not be attacked, then how can you come to the conclusion that the camps, in spite of that fact, were erected there in order to protect the factories. Did anybody tell you that, or is that of your own thoughts?
A Well, I can explain that very easily. It is true that I said that the Germans in Wiener-Neustadt did not think that the American planes could attack the factories, but I am utterly convinced that the chiefs of the factories and the political chiefs in that region were perfectly aware of the fact that American planes could attack the factory and they took these measures.
Besides that, it is quite clear from the fact that after the first air raid also, and when this first camp in which I was had burned, the Germans continued to construct all the other camps around these factories.
Q Witness, you say that you are certain about it. You are convinced. Did you ever speak with one of these gentlemen, or is this just an assumption of yours?
Q Of course, I have not discussed the matter with any of the political chiefs. They would never have dared to talk with me about these things, but, first of all, we-- I and my comrades-- we reached that conclusion when we discussed the matter. Moreover, I very often discussed it with some of our German workshop managers, and they who in the beginning were strongly convinced Na zis, they themselves told me that in the first bombing, the first air raid at least, the lack of protection was the fault of the political chiefs because they could have certainly foreseen the fact that these plants could be attacked by American planes.
Q Those, also, are assumptions of these meisters. Those are all assumptions that you are presenting to us. I want you to tell us facts. What are the names of those meisters?
A First of all, there is Meister Beck, who was the workshop manager and who was my direct boss, and then there was an assistant workshop manager by the name of Berger. I cannot recall the name of the third.
It is quite obvious that we could only talk to our own factory managers, to our own workshop managers, because they were the only ones to confide in us, and they know that we would not go to the Gestapo and denounce them, but when we returned to our barracks later on we would always meet some comrades who would tell us that, "My workshop manager says the same thing," or, "He says this or that." It is quite obvious that we could not talk with any of the real bosses because we were considered second class people and even animals by these people, and they would never have come down to talk to us. It was below their dignity.
Q. Witness, you told us yesterday that the manager had saved you from the Gestapo. You stated that he was very nice to you. Is that correct?
A It is not correct. I said only that I supposed that he was the man who saved me, because he was the only man who did not have too great a hatred for the Frenchmen. It might have been he, but I cannot know that.
Besides that, I can tell you frankly that I did not know him at all. I know only from some of the French interpreters whom we had later on that he was the only man with whom you could talk and who was not too bad, as they say.
Q Meister Beck whom you just mentioned, is that the man whom told you something about the Gestapo surveillance?
A Yes, that is the same meister. Besides, he even saved me once because when the Italians came it was strictly prohibited for us to talk to them. Once an Italian worker passed and talked to me, and this Gestapo supervisor wanted to turn me in and have me put in prison, but Meister Beck defended me by saying that I was a worker whom he needed.
Q Who was that Gestapo supervisor?
A I could describe him very well, but I am afraid I don't know his name.
Q How many Gestapo supervisors did you notice in the factory?
A Personally I have seen four of them. In our work shop, in our own workshop I must say I know only definitely, definitely I know only about three myself, but there was a fourth one who had been pointed out to me by the Germans, that is by Meister Beck and the Deputy Meister Berger too. As the Germans said, I suppose he was one of the Gestapo men also, but I am not perfectly sure of that.
Q How many men were there in your work shop? What was the total number of Germans employed there?
A That changed a lot. At the beginning there wore forty, and it went up to two hundred at a certain time.
Q Do you know to which political party this Mr. Beck belonged to, did he ever tell you he was a Communist or something like that?
A Not him personally. As far as Beck is concerned he told me only that he had witnessed a lot of atrocities when the Anschluss took place, and he told me about some other persons, but I don't think that he personally was a Communist.
Q I see. What clothes, what kind of clothes were these Gestapo men wearing?
A They were in plain clothes.
Q How could you recognize the fact that they were Gestapo Agents then?
A That was very easy to see because the Germans, even those who were not very friendly with us, used to say when one of these guys came along, "Be careful. That is one of the Gestapo." They wouldn't dare to speak even between themselves as soon as one of them was around.
Q Tell me, witness, how many foreign workers were there at this factory, because you have told us yesterday that the total number of the workers in the factory was approximately twenty thousand, the total number, I mean, including everybody. How many of them were foreign laborers?
A I am afraid I couldn't give you exact figures, but I can say there were three hundred French prisoners of war, one hundred Belgian or Russian prisoners of war, seven hundred of our French civilian workers, fifteen hundred Croats and Serbians, and I can't give you the figures of the Czechoslovakians, Ukrainians or even of Italian workers we had.
Q These foreign laborers, were they all there at these camps?
A Yes, I think so. That is, I certainly think so, because these workers after the first air raid at least were lodged in the camps because they used to be in a church and then the barracks, and then they were put out of these places, and they put airplane motors in there.
Q Were there also Czech workers in the camp?
Yes, we had also Czechoslovakian workers in our camps and also women, most of all women.
Q You mentioned yesterday the fact that Dutch workers had been in a different factory. Which factory was it?
AAs far as I know that was at Regensburg, because I remember that when the bombing took place, the air raid on Regensburg and when destruction took place down there they had to send some people away to make place. They sent some to our factories too, and these people used to tell the Belgian workers, "Down there at Regensburg we have Belgian workers too, and also Dutch workers."
Q You mentioned the fact that you worked and you made holes in a pipe. Would you describe your work? Would you describe your work a little bit more precisely, the one where you had so much trouble?
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Dr. Bergold, there would be no intention on the part of the Tribunal to curtail you in any way in the fullest cross-examination of this witness on matters which are relevant and which you believe in the further elucidation of will help the cause of your client, but it escapes me how going into the greatest minutia on the type of holes he made in these pieces of metal is going to help you or the Tribunal or anyone in the disposition of the issue which we have before us to determine. Can you indicate why it is necessary to spend time now on hearing the sizes of the holes, the depth of them and so forth?
DR.BERGOLD: Yes, your Honor. Excuse me, but as Hr. Denney cross-examined him, he follows as we call it in Germany the cat around the cake, and in order to direct the witness to a point at which he will make assertions, where he will make a certain statement, that is the art of the cross-examination, the way I learned it from the Americans. With this question I had a purpose and I was following a purpose.
If I have to tell you the purpose of the question then, of course, I might as well renounce the question, because this witness has a certain definite line to follow, and I am sure this Tribunal will also recognize this line he is following, this tendency, and that is why I can't ask him the question directly. If I have to explain it to him or I have to explain it to the Tribunal, then I might as well renounce the question. Then I think I am restricted.
JUDGE MUSSMANO: Very well. If the size of this hole, if it leads to some other bigger thing that you believe is relevant, you may proceed.
A I draw the attention of counsel for defense to the fact that if I am to describe the work I did there and the type of work all in detail, we probably will be at the same point at noon and perhaps later.
Q (By Dr. Bergold) Witness, in any case, the work which you had to do was a very easy one, wasn't it?
A Well, it all depends on what you call easy. I mean, it was not easy for us who had no knowledge at all of that work, that kind of work, and the best proof, I didn't succeed in getting the work done in the deadline the Germans gave me, and that is why I was brought to the Gestapo, and also because I also broke those famous wires, and it couldn't have been bad will, because there was always somebody behind me to beat me or to stir me up if I didn't do the work properly.
Q Witness, I can't help thinking or having the impression that you, at that time, committed sabotage. I'm not blaming you for that -- far from it, and far from believing that this was a crime. That was your free right and your good right, as a Frenchman, to commit sabotage, and it is my way of being above those things. However, the decisive point is that you made a remark yesterday which was of significance to me. You said that " after I did a poor job for two or three or four times, I received a supervisor behind me", and you said that "then it didn't go as easily as before." What didn't go as easily as before? That you could not complete it in any other way -- that sabotage, which you, as a Frenchman, certainly had the right to commit?
A I don't quite know what I said - "It wasn't quite so easy" - but, anyhow, if I said so, what I meant to say was: "Life was not quite so easy, and the working conditions were not quite so easy"; that is, it's quite obvious that if somebody is constantly behind you you cannot take a minute's rest, and it is pretty hard to work under these conditions.
Q Witness, you mentioned the fact yesterday that the 140 marks which you received as payment in the best times you had -- that they had to be used for food and also in order to pay for the billdts. What did you spend for food per day?
A. I never said that the whole amount -- the whole of this 140 marks were spent on food and lodgings. I said that I had debts to pay and that I owed quite an amount of money: that after I had paid what I owed, there was practically nothing left. As a matter of fact, there was nothing left because I had other money to pay which I still owed.
Q Witness, maybe you will be kind enough to answer my questions, as exactly as possible. I asked you, what did you spend for food per day?
Please answer this question.
A Well, we paid two and a half marks a week, or in some cases, even three to four marks per week, for our lodgings at the camp; and for our coffee in the morning, we paid half a mark; for our meal at noon, we used to pay between one mark and two marks fifty. That, of course, varied according to the meals, according to the hours we had to work, according to the C category of our factory, and other factors of this kind.