AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 6 March 1947)
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal No. 2 is now in session.
MR. DENNEY: May it please Your Honors.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. Witness, just before lunch we had been discussing the conditions at the camp where you worked, and I neglected to ask you whether or not you ever saw any people working around the plants who were wearing the concentration camp uniform with black and white vertical stripes?
A. Yes, indeed. This is a detail I forgot to mention this morning. That near Brandenburg there was a little village, the village was called Goerden, G-O-E-R-D-E-N, and near this village there was a prison, and the kind of a prison that the Germans call Zuchthaus, which corresponds with an American penitentiary, and this penitentiary would dispatch working units inside our factory, and these working units were at one of our French factories which was at Neundorf, N-E-U-N-D-O-R-F, which was also a part of Brandenburg. It was a factory which was about eighthundred yards away from our main plant, and they wore engaged in some work of crushing sand there, and had to prepare this sand in order to make a road for the planes to come out of the hangers, out of the houses which were for the planes. These people wore uniforms of concentration camp inmates, that is, the black and white striped uniforms.
One day I passed there, and somebody talked to me in French, while I was passing, and this man told me that he was a prisoner of war, and that he was from my own part of France, that is, from Brittany. was, of course, quite interested because he was almost somebody from my own home place, and he told me that --- first of all I saw that he was not wearing the POW uniform, the POW uniform had been taken away from him, and he told me that he was obliged to work there, and that the worse punishment for him was the fact that in this penitentiary he had to live with criminal prisoners, and with prisoners of all nationalities.
I want to give one more detail. Of course, at the time I had no way of checking whether this man was really a POW other than that was what he told me, and he might not have been, but when I came back to my home place I checked up on it, and I found him again in Brittany.
Q. What happened at Brandenburg at the time of the bombing raids?
INTERPRETER TREIDEL: May it please the Court, my fellow interpreters have just drawn my attention to the fact that I forgot something in my interpretation that the witness said. That is that the French prisoner told him that he had been imprisoned and sentenced to three years of penitentiary for having had sexual intercourse with a German woman.
As to the present answer:
I must say that the German authorities tried to make us be protection guards for these factories during the air raids. They oven succeeded in doing so partially and for a certain length of time, but in the end they had to drop it because of the constant refusal by the French POW's and Dutchmen had to pull guard eventually. These Dutchmen who had to stand guard at the factory had, of course, German helmets, German coats, and German gas masks.
I wanted to add that at the Brennabor factory, B-R-E-N-N-A-B-O-R, a factory which makes spare parts for the planes, mainly screws and that kind of thing, the Germans also tried to employ POW's for protection purposes during the air raids, but they succeeded for a certain length of time. As a matter of fact, they succeeded for longer than they actually succeeded in our own factory, but eventually they had to drop the idea because the POW's refused, and they decided not to use POW workers any longer for these protection purposes. I must add, however, that the spokesman of these factory workers was relieved from his duties, from his position, on account of the very fact that he brought the complaints of the factory workers with regard to these guard duties to the authorities and that this dismissal of the spokesman in itself constitutes another violation of the Geneva Convention.
Q. What was the relative position of the various nationalities who were prisoners of war, as far as their treatment by the Germans was concerned?
A. If were to establish an exact classification of the kind of treatment that the Germans would deign to apply to the different categories of prisoners, I would, of course, say that it is a fact that Americans and Englishmen were the ones that were treated best because it is certain that the Germans would never have dared and did not dare to use them in their armament factories for work.
Next on the scale came the Frenchmen, but if they came next on the scale it was only for the reason that they actually opposed the Germans and resisted them. We always saw that the Germans had respect only for people who actually went against their will.
Then we night say that the Belgian workers would come, and, of course, the Italians and Russians were the lowest on the scale, and their treatment was the worst.
Q. Did you ever seen anyone in your factory who was beaten by someone?
A. Yes, I have seen persons beaten in the factory, but a distinction has to be made. On one side, French workers would, for instance, argue and discuss with their meisters, their foremen or their chief engineers there, the chief production managers in the work shops, and the discussion would often degenerate and would come to blows, and then they would be beaten, but I could not say that this was generally the case and that it happened as a general rule.
On the other hand, the Russians and Italians very often were the object of rows, and they wore the ones to suffer during the rows, and they were beaten during these rows. The French very often witnessed that.
I must say that whenever a German worker would give some provocation to a French worker or would beat him during an argument, the German worker would never be punished, and the French worker would always be punished. Unfortunately, I have had some of my comrades who were sent to prison for that very reason.
I want to add that intercourse with German women was strictly prohibited for us in the camp and in the factory, and I must say that, of course, the German women were not always in agreement with these prescriptions. When we came to the factory, to Stalag 3-B-- that is the campfirst they made us sign a form in which we had to sign that we knew that we could not have intercourse with German women.
The reason for this law was given by the Law for the Protection of the German Race.
I know that many of the comrades who have been condemned were brought before the court and the judgment, the sentence, was always three years imprisonment. That was the price, and that was what they always got. I know that in five years no extenuating circumstances were introduced, and they always got the same thing, whether the German had been consenting or not.
I have to add that near our camp there was the Camp Arado, and quite near to the camp was a women's camp. We French prisoners always considered it very cruel that so near to our camp there was a camp for women, and I am convinced that the High Tribunal will understand why we found that it was so very cruel.
Q. Did you ever sign a labor contract?
A. Oh, no.
Q. Did you wear the uniform of the French army all during the time that you worked there?
Yes, I were the uniform of the French army during the whole of my stay at the factory, but I must say that attempts were made to transform us into civilian workers. They tried, and, with the exception of 16 of my comrades, everybody refused. Because these 16 had some excuses; for instance, their brothers who were civilians or civilian workers, or their wives who had come to Germany because they believed the propaganda which was made in France to that effect, but most of us, with the exception of these 16, we all refused, and we did so because we were soldiers and we had the respect of our uniforms.
Q. Never at any time when you were being hold were you discharged from the French army?
A. No, I was only discharged when I came back to France after the liberation.
MR. DENNEY: I have no further questions.
THE WITNESS: I would like to add something.
MR. DENNEY: Go right ahead.
THE WITNESS: I would like to inform this high Tribunal of the exact location of our working unit if I may say so. I want to say that our working unit or camp was situated at the beginning of the outskirts of the town of Brandenburg, and it was situated right in the middle of several factories. That is to say more precisely in the center of a triangle that was formed by the Arado factory, by the Mitteldeutsche Stahwerke, which means the central German steel plants, and by the Opel factory. Besides that our camp was right at the edge of the air field which joined the two Arado factories, Arado Neunberg and Arado Brandenburg. Therefore, it was quite obvious that as soon as there was an air raid on one of these factories, we, in our camp, would be in for it, and besides that as soon as the first sirens rang, that was the so-called preliminary alert, the voralarm, how the Germans called it, the Germans would bring their planes to the very edge of our camp. We had two very strong air attacks on our plants. The first was on the 6th of August, 1944. The arado, factories were almost totally destroyed, and besides that we had at that time a very strong battery of what the Germans called flak meaning flieger abwehrkaone, anti-aircraft guns. We didn't suffer anything in our camp so we might well say at that day God was a Frenchman. Unfortunately, we were not always so lucky. In spring of the year 1945, that was the 31st of March, another heavy air attack was carried out against Brandenburg. The planes, the target of the planes was at that time the Mitteldeutsche Stahlwerke, central German steel works, and also the Arado airfield, but our camp had to suffer from this attack very heavily and fifty of my comrades, exactly fifty were killed during this attack. I am weighing the words I am speaking here. I am very careful about what I am saying. I do not held the Americans responsible for the death of my comrades but the Germans were responsible because they were warned again and again, and again and again we told them, "How can you bring airplanes so near to our camp?
It is impossible to move an antiaircraft battery so near to our camp." But they wouldn't listen to us so what happened had to happen. Not only we, the Frenchmen, had to suffer from this attack but also the Russians, and putting it mildly the Russians lost at least one hundred and fifty persons in their camp during the attack, and of these one hundred and fifty more than half were women and many children. I would like to bring the Court some more details concerning the treatment we received inside the camp. If I am to describe the conditions I may say that when we first came to the camp we were, of course, very miserable. Then the conditions improved, but towards 1944 we became more unhappy again. The Germans knew that we in our camp had no pro-German elements, no collaborators, and if I may say so today, this was an honor for us. So as they knew that, they sent into our camp French spies disguised as French soldiers. Oh, they were Frenchmen, of course, I don't know whether they were originally soldiers, but when they came into our camp they were wearing the French uniform. I have seen many of these persons, and I have seen even the notes one of these spies had in which he wrote, "I have seen Mr. So-and so at the Gestapo and I have discussed the case of Mr. X with him." So it was quite clear that these people were in connection with the Gestapo. The German soldiers who guarded our camp did not know that these men were spies and were quite surprised when they found out, but it was quite obvious to me that they were sent by civilian authorities, or at least civilian authorities had made them come to the camp. If I may add the following, I have knowledge also that the Arado factory, unfortunately, was not the only factory which employed prisoners of war for armament purposes. I know of at least one factory in our Army District 3, Wehrkreis 3, that was the Army district which included the four stalags, the four P.C.W. camps, A, B, C and D, I know there was a factory of the B.M.W. which means Bayrische Motoren Werke, Bavarian Motor works, and this factory was an aircraft factory, and I could not give the exact location, but I believe it was either at Lichterfelde or Ludwigfelde near Berlin, and besides that I heard from my comrades there was another factory, a Heinkel factory at which prisoners of war, at which the prisoners of the Stalag III-B worked, and this Heinkel factory was said to be at Oranienburg, and at all these factories the conditions were much the same as at our own factory.
This is all I have to say.
Q. (By Mr. Denney) One further question. I have handed you a document which you gave to me this morning in my office. This document is the text of a letter addressed to the confidential agents on the subject of Article I of the Geneva Convention, and it is signed by George Scapini who at that time was in the French Diplomatic Service. Do you knew what position Scapini held in early 1942?
A. I'm sorry if, in order to give the position held by Mr. Scapini, --I'm sorry if I have to go into some detail. According to the Geneva Convention, prisoners of war depend on three different nations. The first nation, of course, is the nation -- their own nation -- the second is the nation which has captured them, and the third is the protector nation, the nation which has to protect the interests of the POW's. When in 1940 the Vichy Government appointed Scapini the French Ambassador in Berlin, Scapini created in Berlin the so-called "DFB", which is the French Delegation in Berlin, and I'm sorry to say, the French Delegation consisted of rather a bunch of bad Frenchmen, who, in complicity with the German authorities, claimed the right of being the protectors of the French POW's in Germany. And those Frenchmen literally sold us to the Germans.
And I must say that, in this particular instance, the responsibility of the Germans is particularly heavy because they used these phoney channels they had in order to impose on us conditions which were unacceptable for us, and, if I know today the Geneva Convention - because I have to admit that at that time, before the war, I didn't know the Geneva Convention, in spite of the fact that I actually know such a convention existed but I didn't know its clauses -- if I knew the convention today, it is because the Germans taught us every single clause of the convention by their violations, in the same manner, as they taught us geography by making war everywhere.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honors please, I'd like at this time to offer in evidence a copy of this document. It doesn't have a document number because we've just been able to get it documented this morning, so it's Document No. Blank, but we offer it as Exhibit 132, and it is the text of a letter addressed to confidential agents on the subject of Article of War 31, which has to do with Prohibited Labors, and it is signed by Georges Scapini.
It states:
"You requested the "D.F.B." (German French Plenipotentiary) to give you information on the present state of the conditions of the application of Article 31 of the Geneva Convention.
"I think that, in order to give you a precise idea on the subject it is a good thing to give you a brief historical outline.
"Up to the month of February 1942, my Services protested to the high authorities of the OKW against the employment of French Prisoners of War in the industries dubbed specifically armament industries. My interventions were followed by only partial success, when in February 1942, a certain number of the Kommando of Military Districts III, V, and XVII without paying attention to the prescriptions of Articles 42 and 31 (paragraph 2) of the Geneva Convention, suddenly, simultaneously and with one accord stopped work.
In informing me of the situation, the OKW told me that according to the terms of the German Code of Military Justice, the attitude of the French Prisoners of War came under the headings of insurrection and mutiny, a state which necessitated suppressive measures, into the nature of which it is useless to go.
"At the same time, OKW set forth:
"1) That in the general way of things, and on many points, events had overruled the jurisdiction of the Geneva Convention.
"2) That literal application of the text could give rise to a situation which would be infinitely harder for the French Prisoners of War than that created by a wider interpretation. Thus, in practice, the employment of Prisoners of War in salt mines, as high temperature furnace stokers, in the chem ical industries and in synthetic gasoline factories, was in keeping with the terms of article 31, and moreover, the principle laid down in Article 31 aimed at avoiding, the necessity of the Prisoners of Wars making, by his effort a contribution to the direct war being waged by the Detaining Power, against his own country; but these conceptions, valid perhaps in 1929 had no longer any validity at a moment when a new principle, that of total Warfare was making its appearance.
That such was the case in Germany, where all activity except that which had a direct bearing on the waging of war was strictly forbidden.
"3) That, consequently, there was not a Prisoner of War, of whatever nationality he might be, whose efforts, from the very moment, when he started work, were not of direct value to the war.
"4.) That, in the event of our insisting on the systematic application of Article 31, the high German authorities would be compelled, for their part, to withdraw all the favours from which the French Prisoners (Auflockerung) of War have benefited, namely: liberation of prisoners, liberty, etc., Finally, that the rigorous application of the letter of the law would include sanctions to be taken against kommando of Military Districts III, V and XVII, whose attitude had been judged, as has been stated above, by the high German authorities.
"In view of this presentation of the questions, it was agreed:
"a) that we would not insist upon the systematic application of Article 31 of the Geneva Convention.
"b) that the favourable measures from which the French Prisoners of War had been benefitted up till now should be continued.
"c) that no sanction would be taken against the Prisoners of War kommando of Military Districts III, V and XVII.
"d) that the special claims relating to their treatment, food, and working hours, which were, incidentally, based on the requirements specified by the kommando concerned, should be examined in a favorable light, with a view to introducing improvements.
"c) that, when a difficulty arose on the subject cf the application of Article 31, it should, after having been brought to the attention of the Protective Power by the machinations of the confidential agent, it be examined on its own merits by myself and the high German authorities with a view to finding a solution in keeping with the nature of the basic problem, according to whether it has bearing on the principle or on the condition of work.
"Such, in brief, is the history of this question, and such the present position. It follows that when you are faced with a problem of this kind, you must:
"1) remind your comrades of the terms of Articles 42 and 31 (paragraph 2) of the Geneva Convention.
"2) Request a detailed report of the grievances caused by the kommandos concerned.
"3) Hand over the whole matter to the German French Plenipotentiary, thus enabling the Protecting Power to get into contact with the Detaining Power.
"It goes without saying, that, before adopting this mode of procedure, you would draw your comrades' attention to the fact that, in the event of the Protecting Power's obtaining from the Detaining Power a change of command, this change might entail not only advantages for the people concerned. Unfortunately, it is my duty to point this out to you.
"I hope that this survey will furnish you with complete information.
I am aware of the difficulties of your task. They are sistertroubles to my own. I am counting on you to maintain the spirit of unity of discipline of calm and self possession which you have been able to spread in your camp, and I thank you for your devoted service. My affectionate greetings." "Georges Scapini" "French Ambassador."
And here, of course, we see what was done by the Germans - the O.K.W. through the puppet, who is in Berlin, representing certainly something that wasn't France, someone who didn't speak for men like this witness, or thousands of others who were prisoners, a willing tool in an iron hand, saying: "I've spoken to the O.K.W. You were very fortunate. You've been well treated. It could be worse."
I have no further questions.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, you told us this morning that you were taken from Lueckenwalde to Brandenburg. How long did that trip take?
A. I cannot give you the exact time any more, but I remember - I'm perfectly certain that it was more than a day because we passed two nights in the train.
Q. Did you drive and drive for one whole day without stopping from Lueckenwalde to Brandenburg? Or did you stop some place for a longer period of time?
A. If I may draw attention to the fact that first of all, trips and railways during the war were rather difficult in Germany, and furthermore, to the fact that prisoners of war and the transports of prisoners of war were considered so very unimportant a part of the nation that very often one would just let them stand on the rail for seven hours and for another seven hours. I remember that we stopped somewhere in the region of Berlin.
Q Thank you.
A Because I want to explain that we went Berlin-Lueckenwalde-Brandenburg and that we did not touch the line, Juterbog-Wildpark because I know very well this railway line.
Q Thank you, witness. You told us of Italians who were at the Arado Factory before 1943?
A I spoke of Italians indeed before 1943, but I never talked of Italian, prisoners of war. These Italians were volunteers or at least the Germans said that they were volunteers, and they were quite friendly with the Germans. They were civilian clothes with armbands or some insignia. They were very proud of being Italians. Some of them, of course, seemed to have slightly different political opinions, but as a general rule these were passed off as or were volunteers and I was rather inclined that they actually were civilian volunteers, at least, inasmuch as the Germans used to call these people volunteers.
Q But these people came from Italy, didn't they, those Italians? At that time Italy wasn't occupied by Germany?
A Yes, that is quite correct. Italy was not occupied by the Germans yet, but I don't think that I bring anything now to the knowledge of this esteemed Tribunal, and I don't think either that I depart from the impartiality which a witness has to show if I say that if it is true that the Germans did not actually occupy Italy at that time, that the German National Socialists still had in Italy some people who resembled them like brothers.
Q But at that time the legal Italian Government, was the Fascist Government, wasn't it?
A Yes, they were the legal government, but is the legal question or the human question to be discussed now?
Q We don't want to go into politics here.
A I have not started to talk about politics. Somebody tried to make me make a political pirouette here, and I answered in the same way.
Q I asked you because you had asserted that the Italians hadn't gone on a voluntary basis. Witness, I want you to answer only my questions and nothing else.
A I have never said anything like that. I never said that there were no volunteers, and besides that, I think that the question is not very relevant because there were rather few Italians at that time. The main bunch of the Italians we got down there were brought in after the occupation of Italy when the Germans brought then in by force, and therefore I think that the question has no particular importance.
Q Witness, you told about your working hours. In 1944 and '45 you said it was fourteen hours. Was that the working time for the German workers as well?
A I want to clarify that point. First of all, I already said that these fourteen hours did not apply to all the workshops, but only to certain workshops, and second, it is quite clear that theoretically the Germans had exactly the same working hours, but there were some restrictions to that and that was the fact that once or twice or even three times a week the Germans would have permission to leave at 4:00 o'clock or towards 4:00 o'clock instead of the later hour at which we used to leave, either to go back to their camp -- there probably they had to clean up a little bit, or for family reasons, or else a reason which was most frequently given, to queue and get their meal tickets. At least, those were the reasons which the German workers used to give us when they left off at 4:00 o'clock.
Besides that, I want to thank the defense counsel for having kindly put this question to me, because it enables me to give one more detail which I had forgotten before. I forgot to say that these working hours I was referring to were the hours of actual work completed in the factory and that the time to go to the working place or to go back to the camp was not included in these working hours.
When the factory was decentralized, after the air raids especially at that time, some of the working places would be at the distance of up to two and a half miles and with the bad shoes these prisoners had, they even had to walk to the place and this time was added to the working hours, a fact which constitutes another violation of the Geneva Convention.
Q. May I ask you a question, witness, concerning that roll call you had after that strike of yours? Do you remember that?
A. Yes, I remember.
Q. Just a moment. Just a moment. Let me ask you now, you mentioned the fact that at 5:30 in the evening officers came to that camp and you also remember that Mr. Denney asked you what kind of uniforms they wore?
A. I remember that I was asked that question.
Q. Witness, what uniform was that? Was that the uniform of the Luftwaffe which these officers wore? because you said the general uniform there were also officers of the Luftwaffe or was that the gray-green uniform of the normal Army officer?
A. First of all, I'd like to draw the attention of the Defense counsel to the fact that it was 5:30 p.m. on the 21st of January, therefore rather dark, and that it was snowing. And second, I do not see the reason to ask me this question again because this morning already I answered that it was the uniform, the regular uniform of the Wehrmacht officers.
Q. Witness, you don't have to think over whatever I ask you, but it is my right to ask you a question and it is your duty to answer my question. Do not forget that.
INTERPRETER TREIDELH: I have to complete the witness' statement.
THE PRESIDENT (in French): Witness, will you please remember that you are hero in the capacity of a witness, and not as an attorney?
INTERPRETER TREIDELH: The witness' statement completed was -- besides that, the officers told us that they would not make a decision about this, what they called this mutiny -- Meuterei as they called it, and in fact, the decision was brought to us later.
Q. Witness, you also spoke of the fact that near that place where you were working you met a Frenchman from the Penitentiary Goerden and I wish you to answer my question by "yes" or "no".
A. I had met this Frenchman in the factory, in the boundaries of the factory of what we called the Neundorf Arado factory, and he was in there.
Q. He said, however, that he had been at the penitentiary Goerden or something to that effect?
A. Yes, he came from that penitentiary.
Q. You said before that the man was wearing the uniform of a concentration camp inmate. Do you know that in Germany all prisoners, even those from prisons and penitentiaries, were striped uniforms?
A. I know that. I have knowledge of the fact because I learned it just from these people of the penitentiary of Goerden. But I know another fact, too; and that is that the Geneva Convention prohibits taking the uniform away from a prisoner of war.
Q. That is a point of argument, and I shall mention that later on. When the prisoner goes into the penitentiary, that is something entirely different. That is my opinion, at least, Witness, you spoke of airraids. Can you tell me how many Germans were killed there?
A. Yes, on the 6th of August very few Germans were killed. At least there were less than ten because that 6th of August 1944 was a Sunday and there was very little work done in the work halls there; or, rather, I would say that the work in the workshops was already finished because the bombing took place at 1:30 p.m. As for the bombing, the airraid of the 31st of March 1945, well, it was very much the same story. That was the Saturday Saint Holiday, there was no work in the factory. Besides that, of course, it was the 31st of March 1945, and the Germans did not push their production with the same strength they used to push it before. They were rather disillusioned, a little disillusioned, and they didn't pay so much attention; and therefore nobody was killed at the factory.
Our own workers were not killed at the factory itself either. They were all killed in the camp. But on the other hand, of course, in the city of Brandenburg itself there were numerous German victims because all the areas covered and in the vicinity of the Opel, Arado, Brennaber, and central German Metal work factories were heavily bombed and damaged, so that there were many German victims in these regions.
Q Now, Witness, I must have misunderstood you this morning. I said that the attack of the 31st of March occurred in 1944. You just said that it happened in 1945.
A That would be very easy to clarify. In 1944, you said. That is not important. If there is an error, that would be just by accident; and I don't pay any attention to it because it is very easy to find out just by checking up as to when the Saint Saturday in 1945 and in 1944 was.
Q Witness, you said before that there were protective measures and that while you were being submitted to air-raids you were called upon to do that work. Would you be kind enough to tell us what kind of protective measures they were?
A The kind of duty they wanted to make us perform was mainly guard duty.
We would have had to circulate in the factory, four or five of us always together, accompanied by a German soldier. At that time what they dreaded most were the incendiary bombs, phosphor bombs. If we had accented this kind of duty, we would have had to go around in the factory and look to see whether there was an incendiary bomb somewhere and then we would have had to extinguish it with sand. Of course, another duty would have been that we would have had to stay in the factory during the air-raids.
There were, of course, other duties for other prisoners, mainly for the Dutch and Russian prisoners. They had to do anti-aircraft duties; the anti-aircraft guns had to be manned by them. If we refused to do that, if we didn't do it, it was because we knew very well where that would lead us and because also as soldiers and prisoners we had to refuse.
Q Are you sure that they were Dutch prisoners and not Russian prisoners?
A I'm sure that they were Dutch and Russians. I don't know whether the Russians were prisoners or civilians. I never found out what they actually were.
Q One moment, witness. Did you ever hear anything about the fact that the Russians had volunteered to do this kind of work?
A Yes, I grant you that; but, of course, you have to define the word "volunteer" in the way the Germans define it, because why did these people volunteer? Because in order to man the anti-aircraft guns the Germans would place at their disposal an additional ration card for fat and food; and these people were so hungry and so famished that they would have done whatever you wanted them to do in order to have some more food; so we cannot even blame our Russian comrades for having done that.
Q I'm not trying to blame them either. Witness, you spoke before of the prohibition that had been given to you concerning sexual intercourse with German women.
A Yes, I remember.
Q Was this regulation applied to prisoners of war?
A Yes,