A Yes.
Q How long were you chief of the "C" office in the Luftzougmeister?
A Until the end of June 1944.
Q June 30. Then where did you go?
A Then I was sent to the Flak Artillery School and I wanted to take over a flak division. However, on 1 September 1944 I became Commander of Luftgau 7.
Q Where was this Flak Artillery School?
A That was in Roerick, Mecklenburg.
Q You were there from 30 June to 1 September, and then you became Commander of Luftgau 7 in Munich?
A No, I was there only in August. In June I was sick with lumbago and I was in the hospital until early in August.
Q When did you go to Luftgau 7, Munich?
A On the 4th of September, 1944.
Q At the end of the war?
A Yes.
Q Did you ever know a Dr. Romberg?
A No.
Q A Luftwaffe Doctor?
A No.
Q Was he a Luftwaffe doctor at Dachau?
A No, I don't know him.
Q You were in the Luftwaffe Ministry in Berlin in August and September of 1943, weren't you?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember getting a film from anyone while you were there?
A No.
Q Do you know a Colonel Vorwald?
A No.
Q Do you know any other Colonel Vorwalds in the Air Force that was stationed around there at that time?
A No.
Q Do you know a Colonel Pendall?
A No.
Q You never heard of a Colonel Pendall?
A Oh, "Pendelle"; yes, I heard of "Pendelle"; he was the adjutant of the Field Marshal Filch, at G.L.
Q Do you know anything about a film that was shown at the Air Ministry that had to do with air pressure experiments at Dachau?
A No.
Q You say you never went to Dachau?
A Yes, indeed, I was there in 1936. I was invited there once together with twenty-five other officers. At that time I was a tactic teacher at the War School.
Q In the summer of 1936?
A Yes.
Q Did you ever make any other trips there?
A No; just as a prisoner of war.
Q How was everything at Dachau in 1936?
A In 1936 I saw the concentration camp. We saw the whole concentration camp.
Q It was a nice place; was it?
AAll wooden barracks; with rooms for fifty people each; which were furnished with wash rooms and W.C.; we were also shown a mess where the prisoners and inmates could get coffee or cookies or cake. We saw a library which was administered by the inmates themselves. We also saw the kitchen. We also witnessed the reception of their meals in the evening. There were certain workshops for carpenters; where part of the inmates worked. I remember the stools were being made there and war lockets. The equipment of that carpenter shop was very up to date; it contained every machine for working with wood; and also some suction machines. That was what struck me most. That was what struck me most.
Q You know that the Luftwaffe was in charge of the work at the Dachau Camp?
A Yes; I knew that. In fact the commander of the camp showed us around personally. He was an SS Brigade Commander.
Q But you never went back again?
A Oh yes; at the end of 1945 in the end of August as a prisoner.
MR. DENNEY: I am not talking about when the war was over.
Q You never went back before the war was over?
A No, not any more.
Q By the way; were you a member of the Party?
A No; from 1917 until 1944 I was a soldier.
Q. With a steel helmet?
A. No.
Q. With the SA or the SS, or any of those clubs?
A. No.
Q. On any inspection trips which you made to the various factories that you told Dr. Bergold about when you saw Russians, Ukranian women and French, what other kinds of foreign workers did you see there?
A. Well, all those which you just mentioned. Russians. Particularly, Ukranian women and French women.
Q. French men?
A. No. That was a factory for very accurate machinery. That was at Spandau, near Berlin, and the only French women were girls, female workers.
Q. They never used any French employees in the Luftwaffe?
A. Yes, I heard about that, but I personally never saw any of them.
Q. Did you hear about that?
A. The French men were always used in the industry, that is, in the Luftwaffe industry.
Q. But that's all you know about it, you just heard about it?
A. Yes, I did not happen to see any.
Q. Did you see the factory in Brandenburg, where they made Luftwaffe articles?
A. Brandenburg was the "Arado" factory.
Q. Were you ever up there?
A. Yes I was; that was the factory for the HE-177.
Q., Who did you see working there?
A. There I saw Germans.
Q. Only Germans they had up there?
A. Well I didn't see anybody else. Also, I did not go to all the workshops. During my visit I restricted myself to the development shop at Arado, and there they only used German workers.
Q. You couldn't have known about that, inasmuch as you were only interested in the airplane?
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal No. II is again in session.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q Witness, you were there in Berlin all during 1942, that is, your office was there, was it not?
A Yes.
Q And on 11 September in '42 you don't recall ever having seen Dr. Rascher or Dr. Romberg?
A No.
Q Did you see Oberarzt named Weffler on that day?
A I didn't get the name?
Q W-E-R-F-L-E-R?
A No.
Q Do you know an Oberarzt named Professor Kalk?
A Kalk?
Q K-A-L-K?
A Yes.
Q Did you know an Oberarzt named Bruehl?
A Yes.
Q Did you know a government counsel named Penzinger?
A Yes, Oberarzt Pensinger I knew. He was in Rechlin.
Q You recall a man named --- you knew Pendelle?
A Colonel Pendelle, yes.
Q Did you know Obersturmbannfuehrer Sievers of the SS?
A No.
Q We have a document in evidence here as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 123, Document No. NO-224, appearing at page 190 in the English Document Book, No. 5b (Baker), that is a report of Dr. Romberg and Dr. Rascher, which says he went over to the Air Ministry on 11 September 1942 at 9:45 o'clock in the morning, according to telephonic and oral agreements; that Colonel Pendelle and I, we went to the ante-chambers of the Secretary of State of the Senate, and they had a movie there, and that the defendant was not able to go to the movie because Goering had sent for him, and it says that after the film was shown, the motion picture film was handed to Colonel Vorwald, and that he tried to get the film back from you on the same day, but that you were still at the developing conference, and he telephoned you the next day and requested that the film be returned to him, and you said that you wanted to keep the film until Sunday, the 13th of September, since on that day the Reichsmarshal was coming, and he might want to see the picture, and so Romberg let you keep the picture.
Now do you remember that?
A No, I don't recall that at all.
A. No, I don't recall that at all.
Q. Do you know what the picture was about?
A. No.
Q. Did you knew that Romberg was a Luftwaffe doctor?
A. No, I do not know Romberg.
Q. You only heard about Rascher in ay of 1945, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. You never saw the picture?
A. No.
Q. Do you know anything about a picture that they showed in the Air Ministry in September of 1942 that shoved them experimenting on people who were concentration camp inmates at Dachau in a pressure chamber?
A. No.
Q. You said that you left the Generalluftzeugmeister in 1944, 30 June?
A. Yes. It may have been a few days before. I was on a trip for the Jaegerstab, and I fell ill. I was taken to the hospital immediately from the train.
Q. You had nothing to do there after with the Generalluftzeugmeister or the Jaegerstab?
A. No.
Q. Now, who was in charge of prisoners of war for the Luftwaffe?
A. The Luftwaffe was not in charge of prisoners of war. I said yesterday that all prisoners of war were looked after by the OKW and, in Germany, by the deputies of the Generalkommandos of the army districts, by a general in each case who was in charge of prisoners of war.
Q. Didn't General Foerster have something to do with prisoners of war?
A. No.
Q. You know General Foerster, didn't you?
A. Yes, of course.
Q. You knew him well?
A. Yes.
Q You were familiar with his general duties during the war?
A Yes, he was the chief of the air defense at the end.
Q He was a high ranking general in the Luftwaffe, was he not?
A Yes, he was general of Flieger.
Q As far as you know, he had nothing to do with prisoners of war?
A No.
Q You say that it was a Hitler order that said prisoners of war would be assigned to the various factories?
A Yes.
Q And you people -- Excuse me; go ahead.
A This situation was already in force in 1941 when we took over our office.
Q And, whoever you got you had to take?
A Yes, that was the order.
Q So, if they gave you prisoners of war, slave labor, concentration camp people -- whoever they gave you -- you just had to take them because that was what Hitler had ordered?
A Yes.
Q You told about concentration camp workers working at Oranienburg. Did you know of any other Luftwaffe factories where you had concentration camp workers?
A No, all I know is Oranienburg, the Heinkel Works there.
Q And you cannot think of any other foreigners who worked in Luftwaffe factories, other than those which you told the Tribunal?
A Other nationalities I did not know, Russian, Ukranian French women. I did know that Frenchmen were working.
Q You did not know anything about transports or workers from Poland?
A No.
Q You never heard Filch say anything about that?
A No.
Q You never heard Filch say anything about transports of workers from Italy? 1662
A No.
Q You did not know about any Italian workers working in the Luftwaffe?
A No, I did not know anything of Italians. In one case there were miners. They were German miners who worked in Italy in the mines.
Q No, I am not talking about those. I am talking about Italians.
A No, I know nothing there.
Q You never heard anybody say anything about Italian workers?
A No, I know nothing.
Q Did you ever hear the defendant urge of concentration camps being used to control foreign labor.
A No.
Q And you never heard him recommend that foreign workers be sent to concentration camps?
A No.
Q Did you know a man named Gablenz G-A-B-L-E-N-Z?
A Yes, at the beginning he was the chief of the Planning Office.
Q How many meetings of the Jaegerstab were hold? Do you know?
A Well, it was founded on 1 March, and there were daily conferences each morning, except when the Jaegerstab was making a trip.
Q Well, would you agree with me that there were 112 meetings of the Jaegerstab?
A Yes, that is entirely possible.
Q And how many of those 112 meetings did you attend?
A Perhaps 30.
Q Do you know how many Milch attended?
A In the beginning Milch was there quite frequently, but later on he did not go quite so often. He became a much less frequent visitor and sent deputies instead.
Q Now, at the Jaegerstab meetings, was hot the chair that Milch occupied left empty if he wasn't there?
A Not that I can remember -- that the chair remained empty.
Q Well, when Milch was there did he preside?
A No, Herr Sauer was presiding.
Q Sauer presided at all the meetings, is that right?
A Yes.
Q You are sure of that?
A Yes.
Q Now, you said that the total number of workers that you had in the Luftwaffe was 500,000?
A Yes.
Q And that only includes the factories?
A I did not quite understand the last question.
Q That figure of 500,000 includes the airplane factories, the motor factories, the factories where they made the navigation instruments, the bombing instruments, all of the controls, the various other precision instruments, that go into the make up of an airplane, and it includes a small part of the aircraft ammunition; is that right?
A Yes.
Q And the total number of workers that you had so involved was 500,000? That was the greatest number?
A Yes.
Q You never had any more than that?
A No.
Q How was this figure of 500,000 broken down? How many of them were Germans, and how many of them were foreign workers first?
A I could not say that in detail now, because that was not within my sphere of duty. All I remember is this figure of 500,000 which I received in conferences with General Gablenz.
Q Well, how many of these were prisoners of war?
A That I do not know either.
Q How many of them were concentration camp laborers?
AAgain I do not know.
Q How many trips did you make to these various factories during the period 1941 -- November -- to 1944 June?
A I should say roughly I took two trips a month. Therefore I would have made a total of, roughly, perhaps 60 or 70 trips.
Q Was Milch with you on those trips?
A There were a few joint trips.
Q Well, how many?
A I should say 12 or 15 which we made jointly.
Q What were the plants that you visited with Milch?
A BMW; near Munich; Allach, near Hiener Neustadt, the aircraft workers there; Steyer Motorworks; Junkers in Dessau; aircraft engine workers. We went there several times; Luther Works in Braunschweig; Trippelworks in Alsace; near Strassburg; Demiler Benz in Stuttgart. Those are the ones which I recall at this moment. There nay have been more.
Q When were you at Wiener Neustadt?
A I myself went several times; several times in 1943 in the autumn.
Q Were you over there in 1942?
A Yes.
Q Did you over see any people at work there?
A Yes.
Q Were they all Germans?
AAs far as I can remember I only saw Germans. I certain only spoke to Germans.
Q How were they treated, pretty well?
A Yes. Our policy was always to treat them well because we expected them to produce things; and Milch always emphasized me that foreign workers particularly should be treated well as their food and billeting and clothes were concerned; because they were expected to produce; and their food and clothes were accordingly; so therefore I must adduce they must have been treated well.
0 And Milch always told you to treat them well; to be sure that they were treated well?
A Yes.
Q Do you know the plants at Kaufring; Kaufring; K-a-u-f-r-i-n-g?
A Yes; but not as chief of the technical office; but late on in my position as commander or chief of the Luftgau 7; I went there by invitation of Gauleiter Diesler.
Q Did you ever get to a factory at Gussen; G-u-s-s-e-n?
A No, I do not know that one.
Q You never heard of the Gussen plants which were known one and two?
A No.
Q This M.E. 323 that you made at Obertraubling; that was the Luftwaffe; wasn't it?
A Yes.
Q And I forgot to ask you about conditions at Kaufring. How were they?
A Kaufring? I was only about half an hour, three-quarters of an hour, and I was particularly interested in the technical manner, of the way they built that tunnel which was built about the ground, and there were plenty of workers around of all sorts
Q Did you see any foreign workers there?
A Yes, there I saw some.
Q What kind?
A I couldn't toll you their nationalities, but the majerit of the workers were foreign workers.
Q Were they all happy and well fed?
A I couldn't say about that.
Q You saw them?
A Yes.
Q How did they look?
A Well, it was like a lot of ants running around. They were not particularly well clothed, and one couldn't say that, but as far as the feed was concerned, that was generally quite.
Q Did you see any Hungarian Jews there?
A No.
Q You never know anything about their employing Hungarian Jews, did you?
A I know nothing.
Q You know though about the Nuernberg laws in Germany, didn't you?
A Yes.
Q You don't mean that you didn't know that Jewish people were not favorably regarded by the people who ran the Third Reich?
A No, no.
Q You knew that they were having a bad time here in Germany didn't you?
A Yes.
Q Now, what was the date of this business that had to do with these two Russian officers that were shot?
A We were told about it on, I believe, the 16th of February 1944.
Q 16th of February, 1944?
A Yes. I know that it was on the day after a heavy British raid.
Q And how did you hear about it?
A By the engineer on service, on duty.
Q Well, tell me about it, what time was it, and how did you hear about it?
A It was morning, in the morning when I came to my office, roughly about nine o'clock, and the report was handed to me. That is to say a telephone call had came in at night, somebody wanted to talk to me, but on account of the air raid, I could not be contacted, and the report said that at Obertraubling two prisoners of war had tried to escape. I think that was five days ago, perhaps on the 11th of February, and that the Fuehrer had heard about this, Hitler, and that he had been most indignant and wished to have these non hanged, but actually they were shot at his order. Why didn't we report that ourselves, people wanted to know. I myself did not receive the report myself from my inspectorate. I remember that. I told Colonel Traubling, told him off in no uncertain terms because ho hadn't told me the incident. I then took the report and went to General Milch's antechamber. Usually about half past nine he arrived. When he arrived I told him at once. He had a meeting of the Central Planning Board after that, and he was also very indignant and told me it is monstrous that those people should have been shot, for after all prisoners of war have a right to escape and you must not punish them that way.
That will lead to complications.
Q Did Milch over do anything about it or did you over do anything about it?
A There was nothing more to be done. The people were dead, and I knew then and told my inspectorate very emphatically that in the future incidents of that sort they must be reported to me immediately by teletype letter.
Q And you had instructions prior to this time to be careful about the treatment of prisoners of war from Milch?
A He had no authority ever foreign workers or prisoners of war. We were not under, merely about powers of the order. Prisoners of war were looked after by an army department, and that department supplied the uards and the officers and treatment of the prisoners of war was exclusively in the hands of these departments. We ourselves could issue no orders.
Q After this incident you gave an order that they should report these things to you immediately.
A Will, it was a very special incident, and special incidents should always be reported to me immediately by teletype letters, and in this case the building inspectorate had omitted to do so, and therefore I reproached them strongly and reminded them of my order to report special incidents to me.
Q Now, you said Hitler reproached Milch for the escape of Russian prisoners of war?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember what Hitler said to him?
A No, that I do not know, hut it must have been in fairly strong language because General Milch was highly indignant at the way Hitler had spoken.
Q Now, you told the Court that you know of how many instances of prisoners of war having been killed?
A No, I never said that. All I said yesterday was that I know about cases when prisoners escaped; that is, that they escaped successfully. I remembered yesterday a case in France whore a British POW escaped from a German airfield in a German ME-109 and got away. Also, there was the Prenzlau incident when one or two POW's escaped and also got away.
Q You don't know of any other instances where prisoners of war escaped or attempted to escape, and in the first case were recaptured, and in the second case were frustrated, were killed?
A No, I know of no such cases.
Q Do you remember the Sargan affair?
A This business was published in the papers, and after our surrender I heard quite a lot about it.
Q How many did they kill there?
A I believe there were either 50 or 75 officers.
Q Officers of the RAF were they not?
A Yes -- I do not know what service they belonged to.
Q Well, they weren't Germans, were they?
A No, no, they were prisoners, and I know that we discussed this very much in the prisoner of war camp in Belgien and condemned this business very strongly.
Q Now, you spoke about a time when Milch was able to bring two units of men to work in the Luftwaffe factory, one of forty thousand and one of sixty thousand, whom the OKW were trying to get. Do you recall that?
A Yes, they were Germans who had been called up and had been released from their services in order to work in the armament factories.
Q In other words, they were called up and Milch used his influence to get these, in one case forty thousand, and in the other case sixty thousand, from the OKW reassigned to the Luftwaffe for work in the armament factory.
A Yes.
Q How many men are there in a German division; about fifteen thousand five hundred, aren't there?
AAbout fifteen thousand, yes.
Q Now, in 1941 November, things were in pretty bad shape in the Luftwaffe, weren't they?
A Yes.
Q When was the battle of Britain?
A 1940. It began in September 1940.
Q And you hadn't made out so well there?
A No, the losses became bigger and bigger, and finally it had to be abandoned, the attacks.
Q So that by 1941 the whole picture in the Luftwaffe was not very good, particularly about the time Udet killed himself?
A Yes, it was very bad indeed.
Q And that is when it was turned over to Milch?
A Yes.
Q Now, Hitler said he wanted 350 fighter planes a month for 1942, and then Milch said, "We will double that"?
A Yes.
Q "And we will get three thousand a month in '44"; is that right?
A He wanted to achieve that even in 1943.
Q Now, when you were at this ack-ack school, flak artillery, were they training any Russians there?
A The-ack-ack artillery group was not under my command. I was merely taking a course there by order, in order to learn the now tactics and methods of ack-ack artillery before I took over my division.
Q Yes, I know that you weren't the commanding general, but did you have any Russians who were there learning flak artillery tactics?
A No, no.
Q Did they ever use Russians in the anti-aircraft gun batteries so far as you know?
A Yes, I know that myself from my activities in 1944 and 1945 when I was commander-in-chief of Luftgau 7.
Q Well, as a matter of fact at all of these Luftwaffe factories they had extensive air installations around them, didn't they; that is, antiaircraft installations?
A Yes, they were not only around the factories, but there were other objects which had to be protected. In Munich, for instance, the BMW plants and other armament factories which had to be included in the defense scheme.
Q Well, you have seen Russians manning the guns, haven't you?
A Yes, only with the heavy anti-aircraft guns.
Q What kind of a gun was that, 90 millimeter?
A. 8.8 and 10.5 Q 8.8-and 10.
5. Now, you heard a speech that Milch made on 23 March 1944, didn't you?
A I don't know what speech you are referring to, 23 March 1944?
Q Well, Dr. Bergold showed you that speech, didn't he? A conference with the Air Force engineers, chief quartermasters -
A Yes, yes, I know now. That was a speech which Milch gave in the Reich Air Ministry, addressing the Quartermaster Generals and Naval engineers of all airfleets.
Q So far as you are concerned the principal thing involved here, they were talking about the Jaegerstab, weren't they?
A Well, the Jaegerstab -- one couldn't put it that way really. The point was that during the heavy air raids on the air craft industry many of our spare parts and storerooms had been destroyed. There were many aircraft which could have been repaired very quickly if we had the spare parts available, and Field Marshal Milch appealed very strongly to the officers who looked after supplies, the fleet engineers, and so forth, to see to it that the spare parts which were named by our departments, to release them from their own stores.
Q Well, do you remember him saying anything about the Jaegerstab?
A No, that had nothing to do with the Jaegerstab.
Q And you are sure that he didn't mention the Jaegerstab at that meeting?
A. It is quite possible that he referred to tho Jaegerstab because after all, the Jaegerstab by then was three weeks old.
Q. Did you hear him say anything about these is no international law" at that meeting?
A. No.
Q. You din't hear him say anything about whipping people who didn't work?
A. No.
Q. And you didn't hear him say anything about how many different dialects were spoken by the various employees of the factories?
A. No.
Q. Nothing in the speech, so far as you are concerned, to indicate that you had any foreign workers working for you?
A. No, the question of laborers and workers was not so important at this conference; it was material only.
Q. No, you said yesterday that the downward channel from Milch would have gone through you?
A. Yes, the orders to the industry.
Q. So if he wanted to give some orders to the industry, they would go to Verwald and then they would to on down through Verwald, and they would get out to the plant; is that right?
A. Yes, not orders--one can't call it orders. He couldn'T order then. He simply gave directives.
Q. Well, he was a Field Marshal, wasn't he?
A. Yes, but a Field Marshal can only give orders to soldiers and not to civilians or industrialists.
THE PRESIDENT: May I ask a question?
MR DENNEY: Yes sir.