Sauckel: We made an agreement with Field Marshal Milch. You will get the factories which are urgently needed for your airplane motors, etc; these will be completely safeguarded. In the same way I promised Admiral of the Fleet Doenitz today that U-boat repair firms proper are absolutely safeguarded. We shall even be able to provide our own armament factories on French soil with labor extracted from French factories, in the main from the unoccupied territory where there still are metal workers which have their full complement of skilled workers without even having been touched so far.
Hildebrandt: May I point out at this point that we have to put up with the loss of the Italian workers this year. This according to present discussions, concerns 300,000 men altogether, or 15 to 20,000 a month. If we deduct the first installment, the remaining ones to a great part are just highly skilled metal workers.
Sauckel: This is a request of the Fuehrer, but he had not yet finally decided.
Hildebrandt: But we have been told to be prepared to lose those men.
Speer: We ourselves quite support the combing-out abroad. On the other hand we must be entitled -- and this was agreed -- to exclude or prefer particular kinds of work, e.g. the armour factories. In France we are more and more turning toward giving up finishing processes, and stressing the sub-contracting. It is the foundries and similar works, e.g. for the use of the aluminum industry, which we wish to use to capacity. We could force the production of Opal, so that in this case Peugeot who manuc facture the forged parts for Opal, the parent firm, might demand more labor for this while this while the rest of their workers would be taken over by Opal.
190a Then page 2292 "Milch:
With regard to France there is in France an industy which manufactures complete aeroplane motors and spare parts. We have transferred to France the manufacture of everything which can be made there without impairing secrecy. These are training planes, transport planes, etc. However, since we wish to make better use those possibilities, we have transferred to a great extent the manufacturing of parts. The complete product must be kept secret from the French; but in every secret appliance there are only a few parts which are to be kept secret. The bulk is made up of the other parts; their manufacture has been transferred to France to a great extent. In the same manner we have started the employment of many construction engineers there. Today there is continuous work in France for several thousand construction engineers. The industry which works in France for our benefit needs today 20,000 men who must be provided by us in order to fulfill the program. The production lags far behind the program agreed upon. While we fulfill in Germany the whole of the program, it is being met in France by only 30 per cont. True, it is now on the increase since we intervened during the last weeks and months. On principle we have kept the State out of this collaboration with French industry and have had the German firms deal with the French firms. They are called sponsor firms so that now this system works. This system has not been completed everywhere, but it is on the way all over, and we have had rather good results. We are often told we have almost the whole of Europe at our dispon sal. But the production which we receive from France is insignificant, except for army cars. The whole potential French production is not used by us so far, but only a small percentage.
If we were not forced to produce in France, since many facilities, rooms, machines, etc, cannot be transferred to Germany, if the housing of workers were not difficult, etc., then we might prefer to transfer everything to Germany and let all work be done here. But we would have too great losses in production, apart from the restiveness of the men. Yesterday we made an agreement. I am very grateful that this matter will now be put right on the spot by you, Gauleiter Sauckel, together with General von der Heyde and Colonel Brueckner. It is most difficult to get French laborers to Germany. These things cannot be 191a decided or regulated by authorities, but only a sponsor firm has the necessary means of finding out about it.
I therefore propose to make use of sponsor firms, especially hero in France the system of sub-contracting is very much developed. Behind a factory which organizes the whole business, as far as is known from the outside, there are in fact other factories employed in preparation and semifabrication. But our sponsor firms would be able to comb out these sub-contractors as well, do ought to charge our people with combing out all those firms and to find out what men work for our program. Who does not will be spateked by us.
"Of course, a front exists somewhere in the East. This front will be held for a certain time. The only thing which tho Russians inherit if we evacuate an area is the population. The question is whether we had not better make it a rule to take the population back as far as 100 km. to the rear of the front. All tho civil population will be taken back 100 km. behind the front. There are no trenches for which labor would be needed.
"Timm: We tried to take the population of Charkow back, but the officer commanding the fortress of Charkow requested 90-120,000 people only for the construction of field works so that we had to provide even complete railway trains.
"Weger: They were even undertaking demolitions.
"Milch: But this is done by the Engineers. Any hope of getting prisoners of war from the East hardly exists today.
"Sauckel: If any prisoners are taken there, they will be needed.
"Milch: We have made a request for an order that a certain percentage of men in the Anti-Aircraft Artillery must be Russians. Fifty thousand will be taken altogether; 30,000 are already employed as gunners. This is an amusing thing that Russians must work the guns. The last 20,000 arc still outstanding. Yesterday I received a letter from the Army High Command, in which they say they could release net a single man; they themselves have not enough. Thus this measure will not be successful for us."
192a I don't think that the Court needs to be advised that the employment of Russian prisoners of war as anti-aircraft gunners is in violation of the laws of war.
Used as anti-aircraft gunners, certainly not against the Germans when they are prisoners of war.
I might point out in passing that in the German army, unlike ours, the anti-aircraft is part of the air force. In our army the anti-aircraft is part of the coast artillery and part of the ground forces. In the German army it is part of the Luftwaffe.
If Your Honor please, the next meeting is the 36th conference, which appears on pages 16 to 26 of Document Book A. It is quite lengthy, and I would like to put the parts in at one time. I wonder if we can adjourn now?
THE PRESIDENT: I was about to suggest that. You may start with that, then, in the morning and complete it in one sitting.
The Tribunal will recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 0930 hours, 7 January 1947.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 3 January 1947, 0930, Justice Toms, presiding.
THE MARSHALL) Military tribunal No. 2 is now in session.
God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
MR. DENNEY: I have put on Your Honor's desk and given defense counsel a copy of the consolidated index in part, with marks in Books A and B, for Your Honor's convenience, and sometime later we hope to give you one with the meetings arranged in chronological order, indicating where they are to be found in the book. With reference to meeting number 32, which was not read, if the Court recalls, which appears at page 10 and 12 of Exhibit No. 48 B, we should like to withdraw that because of the fact that the defendant was not present at that meeting. So I say, we did not read it and correct.
MR. DENNEY: Yes, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: The Court has determined that under the Charter and the Ordinance, this exhibit is admissible. Its weight, however, in view of the peculiar circumstances attending it is of course still for the Tribunal to determine. This ruling is made after conference with the judges of Tribunal I, who had a similar problem presented, and which made the same ruling as this Tribunal now makes.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honors please, that question will come up again, because we have interrogations and affidavits from other defendants in the first trial, who have since either been executed or taken their own lives.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal feels that the very broad scope of the section of the Charter and the Ordinance dealing with the admission of evidence justifies the admission of this exhibit.
Before you start, also I have been advised that Dr. Bergold will have some request to make with reference to the afternoon session. We will hear you now.
DR. BERGOLD: To the High Tribunal, I should like to make a request: I am asking for permission to be absent from the first half of the afternoon session, as Colonel Holsten of the Nuernberg Military Government has asked me to a conference this afternoon.
I therefore ask your approval that my assistant, Dr. Milch, may be present in my place at the first half of the afternoon session. I assume that the Court has received my application to admit Dr. Milch as my deputy. I do not know definitely. I was told by the information center that my application has already been forwarded to Your Honors to admit this gentleman as my representative. I therefore request that he be allowed to appear in my place during the first half of the afternoon session.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the name of your assistant?
DR. BERGOLD: Dr. Milch. He is the brother of the defendant Milch. He is an attorney, and I have already directed a written request to this effect to the Tribunal a few days ago.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal sees no objection to Dr. Milch's substituting for Dr. Berhold this afternoon. The Secretary-General will please make a note of that determination.
DR. BERGOLD: Many thinks.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honor please, at this time we will hand out page 169 A, which goes in Document Book 1 D, immediately following page 169. That was inadvertently left out of Your Honors' Document Book. It is page 8 of Exhibit 204 PS and Dr. Bergold had that in the original German. It would have completed his book. That should be 169 A, if you please, to be inserted between pages 169 and 170, Document Book 1B. That is part of Document 204 PS, which is Exhibit 39 in evidence.
Before coming to the 36th meeting of the Central Planning Board, which was held on April 23, 1943, I should like to direct Your Honor's attention to a letter of 8 April 1943, which appears in Document Book 2 C at page 101, and which is at page 176 of the German Book 2. We offer this as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 49. It's document No. NOKW 287. This is a letter to Sauckel and Goering, dated 8 April 1943, subject: "Protection of Industry."
"The continuously increasing drafting of German members of the Staff, from the production as well as from the security terms (plant protection and plant fireguards) make it necessary to assign more and more foreign labor to the factories of the armament industry.
This assignment of foreign labor faces the plants of the armament industry with special tasks of security.
-195a which cannot be guaranteed with the forces at present at the disposal of the industry.
According to what I have found out the statistics of December 31, 1942 have already shown an unfulfilled demand of 15% in plant protection personnel. Moreover, the extension of the air force industry brings about a further increase in the requirements for plant protection personnel, an increase which up to now has not been covered by the labor offices.
"An investigation I made in a number of plants of the air force industry a short while ago has shown that even after the introduction of the compulsory labor law most of the labor offices could not make the necessary forces available for protection and fire guard tasks, while other labor agencies could not entirely satisfy the needs. The labor office of Halberstadt has even refused to deal with this requirement because these men were required for organizations without productive value.
"In the field of the air force industry I already ordered, at the beginning of the war, the 84 hour week for these sectors. So that no further increase can be made with these working hours, for otherwise, there would be an increase of illness which would bring about a further unwarranted weakening in the numbers of the personnel. Even the decree for the securing of the necessary forces of protectory guards, issued by you on December 29, 1942, has not yet shown any results up to now in the Field of Armament Industry.
"Therefore, you are urgently requested to direct the labor offices to place at the disposal of the armament plants, upon their request as quickly as possible the competent forces for plant protection and fire guards, because otherwise normal security in the plants does not seem to be guaranteed any longer.
"In the field of the air force industry this would involve approximately 2500 to 3000 men.
"We ask you to kindly inform us about the steps taken."
MR. DENNEY: Turning now to the meeting of the Central Planning Board, the 36th Session, which appears in document book A at pages 16 to 26. This meeting was held on 22 April 1943. Starting at page 2106, page 16 of Document book A, Exhibit 48 A, Speer speaking:
"Throughout the winter we have seen that in the last instance it is coal which provides the basis for all plans which we wish to execute in other respects, and most of you are also aware of our intention to increase the manufacture of iron. Here also it will again be coal which in the last instance will tip the scales, whether or not we shall be able to accomplish this increase of iron production. Seen from the Central Planning, we are of the opinion that the demand for coal as well as the demand for iron ought to be co-ordinated in a separate plan, and that this plan ought to receive about the same degree of urgency as the Krauch-plan, and that with regard to labor, the conditions required for the execution of that plan trust be established. Perhaps Dr. Timm will be able to state how he expects the question of the miners to be developed; unfortunately the miners cannot be taken from the German reservoir, in their place we shall have to use very strong foreigners. I might add at this point that Dr. Timm was the Deputy of Sauckel, who was head of the German Labor Procurement.
"TIMM: at the moment, 69,000 men are needed for hauling that coal. We want to cover this by finding within the Reich 23,000 men, that is, healthy prisoners of war, etc. who are especially suitable for mining and by dispatching 50,000 Poles from the General Government. Out of these about 30,000 men have been supplied up to April 24th, so that about 39,000 men are still outstanding for January to April."
It certainly doesn't look as there are any voluntary laborers as Mr. Timm is speaking about.
"The demand for May has been reported to us as being 35,700. The difficulties existed especially with regard to recruitment in the General Government, since in every district surrounding Germany there is an extraordinary resistance to recruitment.
In all countries we have to change ever more or less to registering the men by age groups and to conscripting them in age groups. They do not appear for registering as such, but as soon as transport is available, they do not come back so that the dispatch of the men has become more or less a question for the police. Especially in Poland the situation at the moment is extraordinarily serious. It is well known that vehement battles occurred just because of these actions. The resistance against the administration established by us is very strong. Quite a number of our men have been exposed to increased dangers, and it was just in the last two or three weeks that some of them were shot dead, for example, the Head of the Labor Office at Warsaw, who was shot in his office, and yesterday another man again. This is how matters stand presently, and the recruiting itself even if done with the best will remains extremely difficult unless police reinforcement are at hand. It certainly does not seem as though there are any voluntary laborers amongst those whom Timm is speaking about.
"It was expected that at the end of the month 50,000 men should have arrived from the General Government. Unfortunately, this could not be done. Only three or four thousand of them have arrived, and 8,000 more are on the way, so that the gap is rather considerable.
"SPEER: Of these men one can indeed only absorb a portion each month.
"SOGEMEIER: We have provided a plan for stages April 26,000, May 30,000, June 30,000, July 50,000, and September 56,000. If the men arrive in these stages and numbers, we should be able to reach the 290 millions of tons, provided that no miners are otherwise called up.
"SPEER: Are these additional labor supplies? Are these numbers which you wish to build up:
"TIMM: Yes, they include the losses which we expect.
"MILCH: Yes, including the 70,000.
"SPEER: I take it that the losses are included in these numbers?
"TIMM: Yes, this is not building up but distribution, if I understand rightly. As said before, we hope to dispatch within the next month 50,000 men from the General Government including the men shifted from other industries.
This page seems to have been omitted from Dr. Bergold's book. I think you are getting them now. We can pick up with the second sentence -198a in Timms speech there.
Do you have that?
"Including the men shifted from other districts there will be 73,000 which should cover the first two months. It would be very difficult for us to increase the number in the next two months, since we have to provide agriculture with the remaining requirements which are due within the next two months, whereas in the months beginning with June the need of agricultural labor can be satisfied much easier by measures taken inside Germany. In the harvest months German labor can be called up for assistance. Only during the season for the harvesting of root vegetables is the situation difficult.
"After what General Commissioner Sauckel found out in the East during his new completed tour of inspection, it would be possible to dispose of more Russian labor again in the ensuing months. How many of them will be men, can at the moment hardly be guessed, since it is the army especially who wishes to release women from the East, but to keep the men there because they are needed for all kinds of urgent work.
"SPEER: May I propose an inquiry on the question as to what Russian laborers are used at the moment as auxiliary laborers in the armament factories, in essential war business or otherwise? This should be done separately from these who in the meantime have learned a trade. We can indirectly exchange auxiliary industry workers with Russian women, and we will be able in this way to provide the mining industry with Russian prisoners of war who now do clearing up labor in the courtyards.
"TIMM: I would also propose such indirect exchange for the essential industry as well.
"SPEER: The towns also were provided some time ago with Russian prisoners-of-war for sweeping roads, etc.
"TIMM: Not many will be found there. If we look for greater numbers of prisoners-of-war we shall find them repairing tracks at the railways, and it will not be easy to extract them there, since they need grown-up and vigorous men.
"SPEER: But the Russian women do that kind of work.
"GANZEMMUELLER: We need the men, and it is out of the question to extract men from there. We use them now as railway guards also, and we have to do this, since no other people are available.
"TIMM: Then we are going to draw up a statement showing where Russian prisoners-of-war and civilians are still used anywhere in the industry, except those who are employed after having gone through training.
"SPEER: Including also the agriculture. Trained people cannot be extracted. I should object at once in my capacity as General Commissioner for Armaments, if now trained men would be extracted again from the armament factories. The works manager will go slowly if he has to train new people over and over again. But to extract in order to send them to the mines, their employers must receive other laborers in exchange.
"ROHLAND: This would be impossible for the foundries. We need 35,000 additional women, whom we could employ at once, but we do not get them. We have already assented to the exchange of 35,000 eastern laborers, but we must get them as soon as the mining industry gets its men. This is understood.
"SOGIMEIER: This labor demand applies solely to pit-coal. As to lignite, we need an additional 25,000 men in the course of the next months.
"SPEER: This is exactly the same in the other mining industries including ore.
"KEHRL: 85% are needed for coal-pits, the remaining mining industry ought to get additions in proportion.
"SPEER: You should add up the numbers. We cannot approach the Reich Marshal with numbers for a single industry.
"TIMM: altogether it amounts to 70,000 for coal and 14,000 for the remaining mines, potassium included.
"SPEER: We do it that way; Kehrl collects the demands for labor necessary to complete the coal and iron plan and communicates the numbers to sauckel. Probably there will be a conference at the Reich Marshal's in the next week, and an answer from Sauckel should have arrived by then. The question of recruitment for the armaments industry will be solved together with Weger.
"KEHRL: I wish to urge that the allotments to the mines should not be made dependent on the recruitment of men abroad. We were completely frustrated these last three months because this principle had been applied. We ended December with a deficit of 25,000 and we never get replacements. The number must be made up by men from Germany.
"SPEER: No, nothing doing!" They won't employ Germans.
"KEHRL: We are completely stuck. I wish to point out that for a year now we feed the mining industry with promises only, and always are we pressed by the pits. They have received only half of the amount they were promised last year.
SPEER: That they were only put off is not true. It was something, too, which they got in the meantime. Let us not hide our candle under the bushel.
KEHRL: If all is said and done, we are in such a precarious situation that trouble is certain if one considers the ever increased program of the armament industry. No, we have drawn the plan for May. This plan cannot in fact be executed, since the 1st of May is a holiday. The other day already we did not know how we could make it right."
The next figure that appears is 300,000 tons, but I think it must be 80,000 -- "tons of coal fall out by reason of observing the 1st May. Compared with such numbers we are not served by a slow increase in haulage. The mines must receive their allotment in one stroke.
SPEER: Out of the question. If Sauckel is able to promise the amount which he tries to get..........
TIMM: He quite expressly stated he cannot promise to dispatch 50,000 men from the General Government.
SPEER: But Russia has to be added to it.
TIMM: Owing to the military events the influx which we had up to December has stopped at once. We received formerly 10-12,000 men in the three last months, 60,000 altogether. This is how the number has gone down.
KEHRL: We now have to touch the reserve which we cannot miss on the other side. Pleiger some time ago wired Sauckel, and reports like that from the Foundry East also came from other works.
"SPEER: This has been clarified already by an ordinance --"
Do you you have it, Dr. Bergold?
DR. BERGOLD: No.
MR. DENNEY: In the speech of Timm it starts out "Owing to the mili tary events -- Owing to the military event the influx which we had up to December has stopped at once.
We received formerly 10-12,000 men in the three last months, 60,000 altogether. This is how the number has gone down.
KEHRL: We now have to touch the reserve which we cannot miss on the other side. Pleiger some time ago wired Sauckel, and reports like that from the Foundry East also came from other works.
SPEER: This has been clarified already by an ordinance and a letter from me to Sauckel; from the coal pits, the foundries and the Ivan-program as such no labor will be extracted, and from the age groups only the auxiliary laborers who can be taken at the spot from the 3 - 4 age groups in question.
KEHRL: In this case the labor again will be taken from agriculture.
SPEER: In relation to the whole of the population the number employed by the "Mountain Foundry East" is immaterial.
TIMM: The Gauleiter returned this morning after he spent seven days on the other side, and told me on the telephone he had spoken there with all competent authorities and they promised him to deliver until August a number not far below one million, consisting of men and women. Nobody can predict how many will be men.
KEHRL: The far greater number will be women.
SPEER: These women we can use in the Reich. There are a great number of Russian prisoners of war and laborers who are employed at places where they need not be employed. There can be an exchange. The only thing is to do this with unskilled workers, and not to take the workers from the industry where they were trained with difficulty.
"KEHRL: Where we are late in completion of a task, or where we lose an opportunity, we can make up for it. But any coal which we cannot haul at once is definitely lost for use in this war. This is why we cannot do enough to force the allotment to the pits.
SPEER: But not by forcible actions in smashing what we toilsomely built.
(KEHRL: We need not do that.) You ought to add the conscripted labor.
TIMM: We must endeavor to get German men for working at the coalface.
KEHRL: We subsist on foreigners who live in Germany.
TIMM: These men are concentrated within a very small area. Otherwise there might be trouble in this sector.
SPEER: There is a specified statement showing in what sectors the Russian prisoners of war have been distributed, and this statement is quite interesting. It shows that the armaments industry only received 30%. I always complained about this.
TIMM: The highest percentage of Prisoners of War are Frenchmen, and one ought not to forget that it is difficult to employ them at the coalface. The number of Russians living within the Reich is small.
ROHLAND: In the mines one should exclusively use eastern people, not western ones.
SPEER: The western men collapse.
SOGEMEIER: May I point out how much we are on the way down: In comparison with the end of February, before the start of the SE-action, we lost every day 40,000 tons of pit coal, only because we did not get replacements for the allotment promised to us; we were supposed to have our losses replaced in the proportion of 2 for 0. The proportion is still 1 for 1.
"SPEER: I have been given a note according to which the mines received in the first quarter of 1943, therefore at the same time when the call-ups took place, an additional 18,000 men.
SOGEMEIER: At the beginning of the year we had still to receive out of earlier demands about 26,000 men. To that number there are to be added 26,000 men owing to the SE-action, if we take a proportion of 1 for 1. The Central Planning had promised us in March 15,000 men for use in a planned increase of haulage. Altogether we received only 18,000 men. This means that in fact we had not even the remainder of the request for the preceding year, and moreover that we had not yet received replacements for the SE-action in proportion of 1 for 1. Now Field Marshal Keitel wants to know whether the mining industry was in a position to release another 14,000 men.