Q. You told him you had given orders to that effect?
A. No, I did not.
THE PRESIDENT: Didn't what? Did you say that,or did not give the order?
THE WITNESS: Neither did I discuss them with Himmler, nor did I issue an order.
THE PRESIDENT: But it just said that you had given the orders?
THE WITNESS: No, I never said that.
THE PRESIDENT: You are quoted here -- you are quoting here as saying: "I have given orders to that effect." Did you make that statement?
THE WITNESS: I don't believe that I said such a thing.
THE PRESIDENT: You mean that this report is not true?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I think so.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: To keep the record straight so as to quote correctly the witness, I believe it reads as follows:
"I have given orders to that effect even if our own foreign workers are involved." You read in the record: "I have given orders to the effect."
MR. DENNEY: "I have given orders to that effect," yes, sir. Thank you, sir.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. Now over on page 8453: the meeting of 25 January 1944, you start out by saying: "Have all requests for labor been granted?" Somebody said, "No." and you said, "What is still lacking?" and Diesing said, "Kaufmann can say that." There is some discussion, and over on the next page, page 8454 of the original, Mahnke says, "The labor situation in the motor sector has been mystified by the fact that there have been delays in the assignment of Czech workers. This is especially fine for the type 262, and for Junkers for the TL instruments." Then you say, "We are not speaking of the TL instruments now. The only thing that is decisive for me is the question whether the transport problem in the protectorate has been solved."
And then Diesing told you: "The transports go on. Up to now, 5,000 workers have been brought 2154 a in.
General Weger wanted to ring up the Field Marshal because yesterday he talked this matter over with Minister Speer. Now I do not know whether something has been done in this matter already. I have dispatched a stop cable directed against the practice of taking any people whatsoever from the class 1924 for other production, and I said that Saur, too, assured us even at our last discussion that we shall get all these people. Second, I have protested against giving a despite to transports. Up to now the transports are still going on." Then over on the next page, page 8455 of the original, you say, "We have to get these people. What exactly are we lacking?" and Kaufmann said: "428 German and 677 foreign specialists. The others are auxiliary workers, there is no difficulty in getting them." Then you say: "Apart from that how many auxiliary workers?" Kaufmann Said, "148 German and 1381 foreign auxiliary workers. To that 1532 men are to be added for the plane body construction. They have not yet been declared reserve workers by the special committee. They, too, are for the most part only auxiliary workers. How many of them will be foreigners I cannot say, but I do not think that there will be many."
Do you recall that?
A. Yes, I remember the question concerning these Czech people. The question was that a greater number of Czechs had been destined by Sauckel for the Luftwaffe armament. At that time Czechslovakia, after 15 February 1939, was a part of the German Reich, and these Czechs were to work in Czech factories for the Luftwaffe. This was done because work had already been done both for the Army and the Navy in the old Skoda-werke, and various others, while the Luftwaffe industry was not included. Now an agreement was reached that these Czech laborers were to be sent to Germany for a certain number of months to learn their trade, and then later on they were to work under the treaty terms, and to learn their new trade, and in the meantime all the factories which were under construction in Czechoslovakia were completed, and the people then came back to their home country.
Q You wore taking twenty year old boys from Czechoslovakia, weren't weren't the class of 1924?
A Well, the older age groups were already being employed elsewhere for other purposes. We did not take them, but the GBA had put them at our disposal because these twenty year olds were compelled to work, I believe they were conscripted for some kind of labor service, the same as in Germany. They were to learn this trade.
Q You say that Czechoslovakia was then a part of Germany
A Yes, indeed.
Q As a result of two actions which I believe you described to the Court last Tuesday or Wednesday?
A Yes, those were the enterprises of 1938 and 1939, spring, that is.
Q These Czechs were all voluntary workers?
A I can not tell that; insofar as the question here is the age group of those who were twenty at the time, that is 1944, they were compelled by the law to work, just as a all others in Germany.
(Discussion off the record.)
THE INTERPRETER: Dr. Bergold's objection is that it should read "legally compelled" instead of"compelled by law
MR. DENNEY: I think it is a minor point, but if Dr. Bergold wants the translation to road that they were legally compelled, with "legally" in quotes I certainly have no objections.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q Now, turn over to the meeting of 14 December 1943. You recall being at that?
A On 15 December 1943? Yes, there was a GL meeting at the time.
Q Now, you notice that Kleinrath there -- the man ahead of him is speaking of 30,000 or 35,000.
Kleinrath says:
"From the military sector we received exactly 1100 workers from the Italians. We have no military internees at our disposal. Even the last 16,000 have been given notice by the OKW for January 1."
And then you say:
"Things will not be set right before the whole question of prisoners of war is differently arranged and the prisoners of war withdrawn from the troops. Most of them are just useless camp followers, and in most cases they go over 2156 a to the partisans anyhow.
As long as the army retains the prisoners of war under the present form of administration, we shall never get things straightened out. The Luftwaffe now has a total of, I believe, 50,000 prisoners of war, about 28,000 of which are Russians. This is the total of the Russians at the disposal of the whole industry of Luftwaffe, and it includes the officers in both camps. The situation, after all, is utterly ridiculous if one thinks of the millions which are still alive, and tomorrow we have to make the demand that for the winter the agriculture inevitably has to turn over labor."
Now, how do you account for that statement? First, you are using prisoners of war in the Luftwaffe, and, second, you are using officers. You are an old soldier. You have been in the army for thirty years.
A The question here deals with prisoners of war who are in the armament industry of the Luftwaffe and in one or two places, younger officers, were employed, Russian officers.
We ourselves had no right to visit those factories. specially constructed transport plane was being built there, and I assume that these Russian officers had volunteered for their work. I personally had nothing to do with the question and I never could have heard anything about this whole matter myself, because, as I said, not even the GL was allowed to enter those premises. That was a special order issued by Hitler, the reasons for which I could not find out. Also I don't know if those officers were all being used as supervisors for their people or as interpreters. At least, that is the way I imagined it at the time.
Q Where did you get these figures?
A They must have been submitted on some sort of list of our statistics.
Q You got a list of statistics all the time, didn't you?
A No, we had our own statistics. From our own statistics from the reports which we received from our own industries, and during the examination by Dr. Bergold I mentioned that.
Q How about the other 22,000 prisoners of war that the Luftwaffe was using. What were they? You have told us that they did not have any Americans, and we showed you a Jaegerstab meeting where you had 300 of them working in a factory. Tell us who these other 22,000 were.
A according to what has been submitted to me and what I have seen, these 2157 a were Frenchmen, French prisoners of war.
With reference to American prisoners of war, I knew nothing about than until yesterday when this was submitted to me. I did not know that they were working.
Q Well, what else were in the 22,000 besides French?
A I know only of Frenchmen, and I only saw Frenchmen.
Q You don't mean to tell the Tribunal seriously that you could not go into a factory that was producing Luftwaffe equipment and go in and look around, you a Field Marshal in the air forces, the second ranking man in the Luftwaffe, the man who Hitler was sending to France and the Netherlands and Belgium, and you could not go into a factory and look around if it was a Luftwaffe factory?
A I still adhere to my statement earnestly and truly. This can also be testified to by several witnesses - that I was not allowed to visit that factory.I was in a certain cleared area where the transport plane which I mentioned before was shown to me. Then I wanted to see the factory, which was a little distant from that cleared area. The G-2 man there was very sorry. He said that I had no permission to do so and that, therefore, he could not permit mo to visit the factory. I was humiliated that I had to leave in such a way I could not get inside neither could I see the work being done.
Q Did not that arouse your curiosity as to why they would not lot you see the premises?
A Yes, I asked this, and the man told me that a special order of Hitler applied to everybody, even the highest ranking officers.
Q. Well, they were making something at that factory for your Luftwaffe, weren't they, an airplane?
A Yes, that is correct; transport pianos for the Luftwaffe were being constructed there.
There were certain conditions in Germany which were rather peculiar and in which somebody from a democratic country could not very well place himself and understand the situation. However, that is the way things were in Germany. It was humiliating for me, for instance, that I was not allowed to listen to foreign news broadcasts, but the same thing applied to Germany all the time.
A You could not listen to radios and foreign newscasts because you had something to do with a court that was sentencing people. By the way, what 2158 a sentences did people get for that?
A In my court, they received very mild sentences. The sentence itself was not pronounced by me, but by the judges. I only had the right to reduce the sentence or to reject the proceedings, and also I had a certain right of pardon and I made use of it. I believe that General Raeder here testified to that effect - that in such cases I put the people on probation. That is they would be used at the front.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Let me interrupt, please. I'm sorry. Mr. Denney asked you one very simple question: What was the extent of the punishment meted out to those who listened to foreign broadcasts? Now, why can't you answer that directly? The other is very interesting, but let us have that answer first.
A Now, generally speaking, probation. The sentences were, if my recollection is correct, between six months and one year. However, they did not serve their sentences because the people had the opportunity to go to the front in order to be free from this sentence there. The normal sentence which was always applied form from above was higher.
Q Was anyone over sentenced to death for that?
A. In other places yes, I have heard about it.
Q As far as you know, the other prisoners of war working in the Luftwaffe were 22,000 Frenchmen; is that right?
A I was not able to count them. However, I can only say that during all visits I only saw French and Russian prisoners of war and spoke to them also.
Q You never heard anything about any other kind working for you?
A In a report, of which I have no knowledge myself and which was submitted here a short time ago, other nationaliities were discussed also. I saw, for instance, yesterday that Belgians were mentioned at one spot. However, if they were in the Luftwaffe industry, I do not know. I did not see them there.
Q Do you know a man named Rothanbach?
A Yes, indeed.
Q We now offer N.O.K.W. 417, which will become Prosecution's No. 146 for identification. Do you recall presiding over a conference of the General Juftzeugmeister on 31 March, 1944?
A Yes.
MR. DENNEY: This next exhibit, if Your Honor please, the German copies aren't here yet. However, we have one German copy which we will show the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: They are being distributed?
MR. DENNEY: Yes, Your Honors, they are being distributed Q (By Mr. Denney) Will you look on the outside and see if the note appears, "Z.M.A., to my files," or to my records, with your signature underneath it?
A Yes, it does appear, and also my initials, "Mi" are there, and the date.
Q On page 9579, you are making a little talk about the Jaegerstab. "All the of as made during the previous months to increase this production were made in vain because the Luftwaffe lacked the primary requisites, firstly with regard to staff, including specialists and supervisory personnel, secondly for repair construction and everything connected with it, and thirdly for transport and everything connected with it. The demands we made were not satisfied.
"In the last days of February, I therefore approached Minister Speer. Together with him and his division chiefs, we agreed to create a Special Staff for the promotion of the Fighter production, in the same way as we created a special Ruhr Staff by which we successfully overcame the emergency created in the Ruhr by the summer attacks of last year.
Here the question supplying parts made of forged iron or of cast iron, etc. in addition to the questions questions mentioned above, were of real importance. All these are tasks which lie tied up in the armament supply office of the Speer Ministry. Minister Speer and his division chiefs who saw the situation quite clearly, enthusiastic 2161 a tically joined us in our demand, and thus in the course of one single day, even in the course of only six hours we came to an agreement and set up the Jaegerstab.
Minister Speer, at that time, was sick and I had gone to Hohenly chen to discuss these questions with him.
"The plan was then submitted to the Reichsmarshall who welcomed it very much, and then it was submitted to the Fuehrer who agreed wholeheartedly to the proposal. Thereby the Jaegerstab was born and recognized.
"Right at the beginning of March we started work, and we set up a special organization for these tasks, an organization in which all important questions are dealt with, independent of official regulations, normally existing in the central and medium government agencies. Minister Speer and myself took charge of the Jaegerstab. Hauptdienstleiter Saur is the Deputy Chief of Staff. The Staff includes a Planning Division under Dr. Wegner, a Construction Division under the Engineer Schlempp, Lt. General Kammler of the Daffen SS takes care of questions of Special Construction, Director Schaaf, right hand man of Staatsrat Schieber in the Armament Supply Office deals with the Supply Question, Ministerialrat Speh is in charge of the Confiscation of Dispersal Sites, Nagel, chief of the Transport Units in the Ministry of Armament and War Production handles the Questions of Transport, the Power Supply is the task of Director Gen. Fischer, Otto Lange deals with Machinery, Nobel with Repairs, Pueckel, president of the Reich Railway Directory, handles Transport by the Reich Railway, Reich Postal Matters are taken care of by Oberpostrat Zerbel, Workers' Health by Dr. Perschmann, Social Welfare by Ministerialrat Birkenholz, and Dr. Engineer Stoffregen is in charge of the Raw Materials and Quotas. These are the gentlemen who form the Jaegerstab. From the list of names you see that entirely independent persons are involved, while the enumeration of the different spheres of work shows you that all spheres which are of interest to us are included, in the Jaegerstab." It looks as though you and Speer were boss men, doesn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q I see that Lieutenant General Hammier of the Waffen SS is listed here. 2162
A. Yes, he had also been sent there by his agency, and I wish to point out again the Jaegerstab was not an authority. All the work that was being done by the Jaegerstab could only be done on the basis of the authority to which these single members of the Jaegerstab belonged. That means then the Jaegerstab couldn't give any order of any effect, but it could only give certain requisitions which then on the basis of the liberations were either granted or not. The execution was in the hands of all those ministries and offices from which these people had been sent.
Q. You said yourself that you dealt independent of the official regulations.
A. Yes, in so far, according to the German administrative law such a compilation of many representatives of various ministries had not been known before but the man in the ministry had to go approach his minister to the minister of the other ministry, who only then could give it to his expert or then not one of the two. However, here there was a regular meeting of people from the various ministries. With regard to everyone of those actions the minister had to give his agreement to it, and so there was a greater independence in the collaboration and cooperation here.
THE PRESIDENT: Recess, Mr. Denney.
THE MARSHALL: The Tribunal is in recess fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal Number 2 is again in session.
Q. (By Mr. Denney) Turning now again, Your Honors, to Exhibit 146 for identification, which we just discussed, you will note that there is an excerpt from page 9603 which has been added, in which the defendant speaks and says: "I know our German research very closely. I have to do with it intimately since 1926, and I was always a member of the control board of the German Experiment Institute for the Luftwaffe."
The German Experimental Institute for the Luftwaffe was the DVL, was it not?
A. Yes, it was, but that applies up to 1933. From 1933 onward I was no longer on the board of directors of the DVL.
Q. So when you said that there you meant up until 1933; you didn't mean that you were now?
A. That is so, yes.
Q. You were interested in those matters, however, weren't you?
A. Only technically. As a pilot, of course, I was interested in research work.
Q. Well, the witness Vorwald testified here that when these experiments were made they were limited as to what height they could go?
A. Yes, that is, of course, a matter of course, that the GL should say what altitude he is anxious to reach, but that has nothing to do with whether I am still on the board of directors of the DVL or not, nor has it anything to do with the fact that I should have to be its superior officer. As I said, I was not the superior officer.
Q. You said you were above Foetster and Foetster was over Hippke?
A. Yes.
Q. And you talked to Hippke about these things in August of 1942?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. You told the Court that you had made sure that nothing had happened?
A. Yes, Hippke said that in the court.
Q. I seem to have forgotten a Luftzeugmeister minute or two here. Did you attend a Luftzeugmeister conference on 22 September 1943?
A. 22 September was it?
Q. 1943.
A. There was a conference of the GL with Speer.
Q. And you were there?
A. Yes, I was.
MR. DENNEY: This is NOKW 347, which is a partial excerpt from a General Luftzeugmeister conference of September 22, 1943, which we offer as Prosecution's Exhibit 147 for identification.
Q. Will you look on the outside and see whether or not your initials appear, please?
A. Yes, I find them.
Q. A man named Fluegge is speaking on Page 44 of the original: "Other branches are included in this figure 50, which refers to the red tickets of August. A part of the production has found its way into this column. Anyhow it is a question of certain sectors within these 35,000 red tickets. Thirty five per cent of these requirements have been covered. It is possible that it happens to be more unfavorable in this specific sector. For the time being we do not have to deal any longer with the question from where to get the people but with the technical question to withdraw them as quickly as possible from the Stalag's. That has to be achieved within the next few days. Up until now it did not work well. During these last days, only very few prisoners of war have been assigned. I wanted to deal with the matter already today. These people do exist."
Then Speer says: "Which army districts have to be furnished with labor. Someone interpolates or interrupts: "Army district VI and also Schweinfurt Gerhardt speaks: "The labor officials also have to remain firm, even if the enterprises says that they cannot use Italians."
Then Speer says: "As far as the quantity is concerned, there is really no problem for the time being. According to reports received yesterday we have 190,000 Italian POW's in Germany which belong to us alone and which are as far as urgency is concerned, divided up in such a manner that after those fit for mining and those fit for the heavy industries, the supply industries absolutely receive the next priority. They arc secured for the armament industry. The OKU has received orders accordingly. Perhaps, Nicolai, you arrange it that way that by 5:00 p.m, a conference takes place between Hildebrandt, yourself a nd the other gentlemen. And then right after the conference you come over here, together with Hildebrandt, Gerhardt, Becker, and Mueller, and tell me what really is to be covered finally, and within what period of time.
And then we let the different enterprises give a summary report every second day as to what actually has been done with regard as well to the crankshafts as to the cylinders. On the whole this covers the whole area of the supply industries. The 30,000 we have mentioned are a total. We do not want to delay the others again. Otherwise they will get nothing at all."
Then you say: "If these people cannot be lodged right away -- I have seen how they have done it in the East -- then lodge them in the factory let them stay there until the barracks are constructed. This matter must not fail because someone says these people cannot be lodged. They can sleep near the machine."
Do you recall - suggesting that the workers sleep in the plants near their machines?
A. Yes, I recall that. At that time the cities where the factories were situated had been damaged by air raids; and our German workers had to sleep in their factories. The people you spoke of here, Fluegge, Nicolai, Hildebrandt, Gerhardt, Becker, Mueller, are not people of the GL. In this meeting we were concerned with the question of how Speer could help in the Luftwaffe industry; and these are deliberations and those of his people. I assume that in this report we discussed the question of lodging before; and with some delay I deal with it now.
Q. You could get almost anybody you wanted in one of those Luftzeugmeister meetings, couldn't you, to take up any problem?
A. No, I was unable to do that. For instance, in this case when I wished to enlist Speer's support, I had to apply to him; and he brought his expert workers with him.
Q. You asked Speer to come; and he came and brought whoever you wanted to have brought?
A. No, whomever he wanted to bring. I could not give Speer orders as to whom he was to bring along.
Q. You could suggest, couldn't you?
A. I did not know these people nor can I recall either Fluegge, Gerhardt, Becker, and Mueller. In the case of Hildebrandt I assume that he was an official from Sauckel, who did not belong to Speer's Ministry and Nicolai was an officer of Speer's Armament Ministry.
Q. Where was Speer's office?
A. It was in Berlin on the Pariser Piatz, Numbers 3 and 4.
Q. This meeting that we have just talked about was held in the Reich Air Ministry in your office, wasn't it?
A. Yes, it was held in my office. Speer came to see us for that purpose because we had issued the invitation to him. That used to change to and fro. Sometimes we would go to see him; and sometimes he'd come to see us.
MR. DENNEY: This next document is NOKW-449, which we offer as Prosecution's Exhibit 148 for identification.
Q. Will you look on the cover and see whether your initials appear there?
A. Yes.
Q. They do appear?
A. Yes, they do.
Q. This is a General Luftzeugmeister conference of March 2, 1943. Here you present at that conference?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. On Page 4505 of the original, you say: "Another question. All reports from France show that the French have got their heads full of political thoughts and ideas. On the basis of the news they tell themselves that they are retreating on the Eastern Fromt and the English and Americans are gradually getting afraid that the Russians alone will be victorious. The French go on to say: If the promises made to us by the Americans are really kept, our fortunes are made. That has already led to our foreign workers' slowly becoming hostile. On principle I have to be informed of every case of swinishness. I do not understand at all why Germany should put up with it when Poles and Frenchmen explain to the people -- today, indeed, you are still sitting in this work; but later we shall be the owners; and if you treat us properly we shall see to it then, that you are shot dead immediately and not tortured first.