A Sir, I think you overrate me. You overrate my possibilities and my abilities. If I may say one thing, it is not easy to describe the situation as it really was in our case, with a few words and answers. And as you yourself are unable to understand because conditions are so different in your own country; I know that you were more happy in your country, but I had to remain where I was.
I was a German, and I had to remain a German because I hoped that through my efforts I might be able to avoid the worst in Germany. I know that in this struggle I was, in a minor sense, a leading man because the others were unable to see the conditions so clearly as I did as far as bombing warfare was concerned. And up to the end of 1943; I never gave up hope that I could do a great service to my country which would have at least made it possible to stave off destruction of our homeland or keep it down to more modest limits. Many hundreds of thousands of people's lives would have been saved who were killed by bombs, and, also, I could hope that then peace might be concluded which would have been more bearable for the German people. Such were my hopes, my hopes. That was what directed me, and I believe that the German soldier can not act towards his country otherwise, and I would welcome it if you would have doubted if I had the possibility to speak on the general, situations calmly and sensible.
This morning I said that for two years I only thought about one idea: How could it have all been prevented and avoided?
Q Yes, you have answered that.
How many concentration camps were there in Germany, so far as you know, during the war?
A I can give you no information on this point. I knew only two names.
Q You knew of only two concentration camps?
A I knew the names of two concentration camps. I assumed that there would be more but I never heard of another one and never saw any thing of another one.
Q When Goering telegraphed Himmler for concentration camp inmates for the Air Industry, and Himmler replied on March 9, 1944 that 36,000 prisoners of war were already employed in the Air Industry; that he would furnish 90,000 more, you did not know where they were coming from?
A No, I did not, because they did not come through me; they did not go through our office at all.
Prisoners of war was mentioned here -- I should think you meant concentration camp inmates.
2273A
Q Perhaps so. The transcript actually carried it as "Prisoners of War," but that may have been an error. Now, one final question. You had this night-long conference with Hitler in March of 1943, and then in the spring of 1945 you say that Hitler was determined to be rid of you, and that it all went back to what you had so candidly told him two years before. Are we to understand by that Hitler withheld his hate, or his revenge against you for two years?
A I didn't say it like that. I said that Speer, in the spring of 1945 told me that Hitler wished to eliminate me, and I personally said, "I looked for reasons," and I said I thought that was to be explained by the fifth of March 43 because from that time onwards he behaved differently to me than he did earlier on.
Q And did the Gestapo conduct an investigation and find that you were utterly from their criterion of worth, blameless?
A No, that is also incorrect, sir. I said Hitler explained to Speer why he took action against me by saying that Kaltenbrunner of the Gestapo had told him there was an enormous amount of material against me, that I was an enemy of the State. And thereupon Speer asked -- as he was a friend of mine -- that he would like to look into the material before anything is done. Hitler gave permission and then it was shown by the inquiries of Speer that the Gestapo had no material against me.
Q That is all -
A Speer reported that to Hitler, and Hitler said, "I don't care whether there is material or not -- that man must be liquidated."
Q That is all -
A That is what it was.
BY DR. BERGOLD: Your Honors, I have a few questions.
Q Witness, you spoke of the German people not wanting war in 1939. Please describe to us the attitude of the Berlin population when, in March of 1939, the tanks moved towards Czechoslovakia?
A I believe on 13 March -- 13 March I left the Air Ministry in order to go to lunch. The streets had been blocked because through the Wilhelmstrasse, where our ministry was, a long column of tanks were marching.
I stood among the people and I was in civilian clothes. People were completely silent and no nobody saluted the soldiers, as was usual in Germany. People were very depressed. And I heard the same evening or next day that Goering said that Hitler had intentionally sent a tank division through Berlin because the people of Berlin did not approve his actions - or at least so it seemed. He wished to show people. He wished to put them under pressure, as it were. There is an expression "in order to fortify one's spine". I use that expression because I never forgot its peculiarity. It was such a strange impression to notice opposition on the people's faces although they didn't even know - nothing had been released. But it was feared there might be complications.
Q Witness, what did Hitler do after the Polish campaign as far as France and Britain were concerned?
A It was officially announced and I believe he explained this in the Reichstag, and then the papers and the wireless carried it, that he had made an offer of peace and that the peace offer was made in the first half of October. But no reply came back, or at least an insufficient reply, and it led to Hitler, giving the order on 12 October: "The War Goes On!" And now bombs must be manufactured which were still not available.
Q Witness, my last question - and I am referring back to the case of Braunschweig. When I examined you, you gave us reasons why you sent the prisoners of war to Braunschweig.
A First of all, we needed workers there. A manufacturing process was in full swing there about 15 or 20 kilometers north of Braunschweig, near those barracks. More workers should be sent there and as Sauckel had given us prisoners of war for that purpose, I was glad because prisoners of war, because young strong people, would help more efficiently in the work, particularly if something went wrong in the factories, for instance, if a fire broke out, etc.
because the old people and the women who were there at the time, were physically at a loss in such a situation.
Q After bombing attacks, were prisoners of war used to extinguish fires in order to help the German people?
2275 a
AAs far as I heard, in cases of many fires, prisoners of war helped very efficiently in extinguishing fires; very many prisoners of war were released by the government and sent home as a token of gratitude in order to reward a good deed. I know several cases, myself.
Q Thank you very much. I have no further questions of this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: All right. The defendant may resume his place in the deck.
DR. BERGOLD: I would ask to be allowed to call the witness, Reinecke.
THE PRESIDENT: Marshal, please bring the witness, Reinecke, into the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Has this witness been here before?
MR. DENNEY: The witness Reinecke before this Court? No, Your Honor, the witness Vorwald has; the witness Reinecke has not.
HERMANN REINECKE, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
THE PRESIDENT: The witness will raise his right hand and repeat after me, please:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q Witness, will you please speak slowly and I will also ask you to make a little pause after each question put to you so that the translator can finish translating my question.
A Yes, sir.
Q Please give the Court your Christian name and second name.
A Hermann Reinecke.
Q When were you born?
A 14 February 1888.
Q Where?
A In Wittenberg.
Q What was your last rank in the Wehrmacht?
A General, Infantry.
Q Witness, what was your position in 1942 in the Wehrmacht?
A I was the chief of the General Wehrmacht Office with the OKW.
Q Was this office in charge of prisoners of war?
A Yes, to a certain extent. One of my departments was the department for prisoners of war.
Q Witness, I shall now ask you, in 1942, did the defendant Milch or General von Gablenz, or any other officer of the Luftwaffe approach you requesting you to give your agreement, or to give the order directing that French prisoners of war should be shot before the employees of the factory if they refused to work?
2277 a
A No, it is very difficult after five years to remember all single conferences and talks; but I should certainly remember such a question.
Q Do you know the General of the Luftwaffe von Gablenz at all?
A No, I do not know him.
Q Witness, were French prisoners of war always well provided for and looked after?
A Yes. The French Government had appointed the French ambassador Scapini to look after their own prisoners of war. Scapini was an old soldier himself and was blinded in the war and worked with me very intimately and zealously; and we discussed all questions concerning French prisoners of war.
Q Witness, is it correct that you together with Scapini released over a million of French prisoners of war?
A I can not give you the exact figures; but we certainly released a large number of prisoners of war, and sent them back home. Both of us on our own initiative released a large number of prisoners of war, off officers as well as NCO's and enlisted men, although I really wasn't justified in doing so.
DR. BERGOLD: I have no further questions to ask this witness. Your witness, Mr. Denney.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:
Q When did you assume the command of the office that dealt with prisoners of war?
A I took over as chief of the General Wehrmacht Office in 1938; and the Prisoners of War Department was formed when war broke out, roughly in September 1939.
Q So you were in charge of prisoners of war for the Wehrmacht starting in September 1939 when the war broke out until what date?
A I did not actually have the supervision of prisoners of war. We only had certain tasks which were important for the hone front. If the prisoners of war were in occupied territories, they were under the Wehrmacht branches generally under the Army.
2278 a
Q. Will you answer the question that I asked you, Witness? You were in charge of an office in the Wehrmacht which had to do with prisoners of war starting in September of 1939 and you continued to hold that position until when?
A. Without any change, up to January 1944. Then I was given another task; and as chief of the Wehrmacht office I was relieved by a permanent deputy. Then I took it over again fully from March 1945 until the end of the war.
Q. And at the time that you had a permanent deputy, starting January 1, 1944 you were still in charge of it, were you not?
A. Yes; but I was relieved from my responsibility because there were so many things I could not do myself. However, my permanent deputy always informed me on the most essential points.
Q. Now, you knew that prisoners of war were used to work in German armament factories?
A. Work in armament factories was not forbidden by the Convention. The Convention only forbade that prisoners of war should be used to manufacture arms, ammunition, and to transport such things to the troops. I do not recollect it precisely; but that, I think, is roughly what the Convention said.
Q. Well, you knew that in Germany prisoners of war worked in factories that produced arms, munitions, material that was used by the Wehrmacht and its branches.
A. I must make a more precise statement here. To work in such an armament factory as Krupp is not an offense against the Convention. They can be employed there and could have been employed in such work with tasks which were not connected with the manufacture of munitions and arms; but I know, and Scapini once told me that--
Q. We're not interested in what Mr. Scapini told you; and I'm not interested in your making speeches. You can make all the speeches you. want to when Dr. Bergold is up here. Just answer my question. You knew that prisoners of war worked in factories that manufactured armaments, munitions, and material that was used by the Wehrmacht or its branches, didn't you?
A. Specific knowledge I do not have.
Q. Well, did you have general knowledge of it?
A. I did not know any details that they worked at places which were prohibited generally, that is to say, that they worked on producing armaments. It was once told me by Scapini, and I attempted to clarify that matter. At that time Keitel, the chief of the OKW, told me that in that respect no objection could be raised by us, because Sauckel and the French government had come to a special agreement on the basis of the Convention.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you give up, Mr. Denney?
MR. DENNEY: Oh, no, sir.
Q. You knew that you furnished prisoners of war to Sauckel to work; furnished prisoners of war to Sauckel, the General Plenipotentiary for Labor, to do work, didn't you?
A. I don't follow the last point, that Sauckel asked ---?
Q. Well, just withdraw everything, and we'll do it in steps. Did you know Sauckel?
A. Yes, of course.
Q. Fritz Sauckel?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. What was his position?
A. Sauckel was -- what was the name? He was the Plenipotentiary for the Assignment of Labor.
Q. Now you furnished labor to Sauckel, prisoners of war, didn't you?
A. Well, that wasn't done by the OKW, the employment of prisoners of war was made independently by the commands of the Wehrkreise.
Q. Well, all right. Did the Wehrkreis commands furnish prisoners of war to Sauckel to be used as laborers?
A. Yes, of course, in connection with the representatives of the labor exchanges and the economic offices.
Q. Yes and once those prisoners of war had been furnished to Sauckel, you lost control over them, didn't you? You had nothing to do with them any more after that?
A. The OKW, no, no. The camps according to the rules and regulations, before the prisoners of war were assigned to work had to examine the order to see if it was in accordance with the regulations, and if it was not in accordance with the regulations they were not allowed to be employed.
Q. So that you did check, you or your subordinates either in your office of the OKW office, for prisoners of war or in the various "Wehrkreisen", in and determined in every instance what kind of work a prisoner of war was going to do before he was released to Sauckel?
A. Yes, that went quite automatically through the camps. The OKW did not deal with the details at all, we only sent the prisoners of war to the aircraft command, and then the whole operation went on automatically. It was not agreed between Sauckel and OKW that prisoners of war could be sent to such and such an organization, but that was done locally on application.
Q. Yes, but prisoners of war would be sent out to the "Wehrkreisen" when the labor administration had asked for workers, and they would be assigned to the labor administration. Is that correct? And then they'd go to work?
A. Yes, quite.
Q. And then you are certain that none was ever employed in any occupation that in any way violated the Geneva Convention?
A. Well, that is very difficult to answer.
Q. That was your job?
A. No, that was not my job.
Q. You were head of all the prisoners of war?
A. Firstly I was not a superior on that question but we merely worked on that point for the OKW, and secondly, on these questions as to assignment, there were decrees according to which the branches had to act, as the Wehrkeris Commander was not my subordinate. I had no official position in this natter.
That was not organized along the American line, when then there is a commander of war. We were completely decentralized.
Q. You did not know what kind of work prisoners of war did?
A. Generally they were used wherever there was a shortage of labor in industry and in agriculture.
Q. You were a member of the People's Court, were you not?
A. Of what?
Q. You tried some Generals arising out of an incident that took place on 20 July 1944. Haven't I seen your picture in the movies as a member of the court?
A. Yes, you did.
Q. And you also were the general who on 8 September signed an order in reference to Russian prisoners of war, which order Admiral Canaris commented on 15 September 1941, which was put in evidence in the first trial, which is quoted in the judgment, and you had stated that the Soviet Union was not a party at the Geneva Convention, and Admiral Canaris in his comment on your order said that, "The Geneva Convention for treatment of prisoners of war is not binding in the relationship between Germany and the USSR. Therefore, only the principles of general international law on the treatment of prisoners of war applied. Since the 18th century these have gradually been established along the lines that war captivity is neither a revenge nor a punishment but solely a protective custody, the only purpose of which is to prevent the prisoners of war from further participation in the war. The principle was developed in accordance with the view held by all armies, that it is contrary to military tradition to kill or injure helpless people. The decrees for the treatment of Soviet prisoners of war enclosed are based on a fundamentally different view" and to the protest made by Admiral Canaris to the orders which you had signed with reference to the treatment of Russian prisoners of war, Keitel, who was your chief in the OKW, said, "The objections" - speaking of what Admiral Canaris said - "arise from the military concept of chivalrous warfare. This is the destruction of an ideology:
therefore, I approve and back the measures".
Do you recall that?
A. Am I to have said all of this?
THE PRESIDENT: Now do you give up?
MR. DENNEY: Maybe I ought to, Your Honor, but I won't.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. You say you worked very closely with a man named Scapini?
A. Yes, sir, I did.
Q. Did you know who Scapini was?
A. Yes.
Q. Now he received a letter, you said you worked very closely with him, in reference to French prisoners of war?
A. Yes, quite.
Q. And anything that came up with reference to French prisoners of war of course went through him, didn't it?
A. Yes, and he passed on complaints when they were complaints.
Q. Yes, when complaints came up from below they went to Scapini, and Scapini came to see you?
A. Yes.
Q. You were the head man?
A. Yes, otherwise they went through the offices.
Q. Now I show a letter that Scapini wrote back, which is the German copy Exhibit No. 132 for identification, if Your Honor please. It is the reply that Scapini made to the protest made by the French prisoner of war Paul Le Friec, who testified here as a witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Denney, do you have English translations of this Exhibit. We don't seem to have it.
MR. DENNEY: No, I am sorry, Your Honor. Do you have a German copy, Dr. Bergold?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, and I still want it.
MR. DENNEY: Exhibit No. 132 for identification, Your Honor.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. Do you recall, witness, Scapini taking up this matter with you? Just answer the questions. Don't make speeches, please. Did Scapini take this matter up with you?
A. It is possible, yes.
Q. And does this letter which I have shown you substantially set forth your attitude about this question?
A. I did not recall it that way, and as I said before Keitel had told me Scapini had concluded an agreement with the French government that the convention itself reflected -- I don't know the particular paragraph in that convention but that a new agreement had replaced the old convention, and that seems to be the case, because I now recall that Keitel had also said that the French prisoners of war were considerably helped in the future by the casening of the situation, and they were much better off than they would be under the obligation arising out of the Geneva Convention.
Q. Did you agree with what is set forth in this document. Is that substantially your position in reference to that matter? Don't tell me anything about Keitel or Sauckel or anybody else. Just answer the question.
A. My personal attitude on that point was not decisive. The decision on these matters was up to Keitel or Hitler.
Q. But whatever Keitel or Hitler said you agreed with, is that right?
A. No not at all. In many, many cases I made strong protests and I tried especially in many cases to divert certain matters with regard to prisoners of war and to prevent them from being carried out until these regulations were given. My task was to make the proposition or comment on orders which were given and these I made precisely.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you mind if I give up and take a recess?
MR. DENNEY: No, we can take a recess, but not to give up on this.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken).
2284-a
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
Q. (By Mr. Denney): Did you know that prisoners of war were employed in Airplane factories?
A. Well, I do not know that in detail, no. I never did have the opportunity to bother with details.
Q. No, I am sure you didn't, but do you know whether or not they were? You can answer that yes or no.
A. I really can't tell you that exactly. I never dealt with the details. That some of the people had been used in the aircraft factories is possible of course.
Q. Some of the prisoners of war?
A. Yes, I think so. I take it.
Q. Well, there is no sense in prolonging this. I will read you an order that you signed on 8 September, 1941, one of many orders that you signed. Listen and see if you recall. This is taken from the judgement of the International Military Tribunal and has to do with murder and ill treatment of prisoners of war. I am quoting from Page 229 of the First Volume, the official transcript of the record.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: The reporters aren't getting it, Mr. Denney, something is wrong.
MR. DENNEY: The English reporters?
THE PRESIDENT: The German reporters.
Q. I am reading, Your Honors, from the First Volume of the official record of the International Military Tribunal in English, Page 229 of that volume. Lister to this, Witness. On 8 September, 1941, Regulations for the Treatment of Soviet Prisoners of War in all prisoner of war camps are issued signed by General Reinecke, the head of the Prisoner of War Department of the High Command. These orders stated, "The Bolshevist soldier has therefore lost all claim to treatment as an honorable opponent in accordance with the Geneva Convention. The order for ruthless and energetic action must be given at the slightest indication of insubordination, especially in the case of Bolshevist fanatics. Insubordination, active or passive resistance must be broken immediately by force of arms, bayonets, butts, and firearms.
Anyone carrying out the order who does not use his weapons or does so with insufficient energy is punishable. Prisoners of war attempting escape are to be fired on without previous challenge. No warning shot must ever be fired. The use of arms against prisoners of war is, as a rule, legal." You signed that order, didn't you?
A. Not the order. The directives had been issued by Keitel and I signed the circular. I did not issue the order either.
Q. You signed the circular passing the order on?
A. Yes, I signed this covering order upon which is written, the order was issued. In other words, this was not signed upon my orders but by the chief of the OKW, who had given the order.
Q. You passed it on?
A. Yes, of course I did. These directives had been set up by Hitler or Keitel respectively, and they had been given out with the ordinance to the Wehrkreise.
Q. You were in charge of prisoners of war?
A. I was not the commander in chief in prisoners of war matters, never, nor did I have any powers whatsoever to issue orders. I was just the office and I told you that 90 percent dealt with other things and 10 percent dealt with the treatment of prisoners of war.
Q. But part of your 10 percent in dealing with prisoners of war was passing on this order?
A. Yes, the order was passed on.
Q. By you.