"In communication RFSS of 1.4.42 it is ordered under paragraph 3 if prisoners in Dachau condemned to death overcome tests which endanger their lives, they should be pardoned. As up to now only Poles and Russians were available, amongst them also persons condemned to death, it is not quite clear to me yet whether the above mentioned paragraph also applies to them, and whether they after overcoming several very severe tests they may be pardoned to lifelong KZ." meaning imprisonment in a concentration camp. "Beg for answer by teletype via adjutant's office RFSS Munich." It is signed respectfully, and then Brandt's reply to that of the 21 October 1942, dated at the top by 22 and 1942.
"Please inform SS-Untersturmfuehrer Dr. Rascher regarding his teletyped request that the decree of the Reichsfuehrer SS concerning pardoning of experimental subjects does not apply to Poles and Russians."
That concludes our offer of documents. Your Honor, we have one witness which we would like to call this afternoon.
THE PRESIDENT: Will that conclude your proof?
MR. DENNEY: That will conclude our proof, yes, your Honor.
DR. BERGOLD: Just one more word. May it please your Honors, I only have one question with reference to this exhibit which has now been submitted, namely to the letter of the 13th of April 1942, I would like to say the following. If it is necessary that I allso submit more evidence, you will remember that I always tried to prove that Rascher. carried out secret experiments in Dachau, upon Himmler's orders, and it says here under A No. 3, "These experiments should above all be evaluated for the purpose of seeing whether it is not possible, through the long functioning of the heart, to bring such people back to life." We should hear Hippke on this matter, if such an order was ever given by the Luftwaffes, or if these secret experiments were the ones that I have looked for for a long time, that therefore I could prove that they were secret, namely that Rascher had special orders directly from Himmler. If the Tribunal tells me this, this exhibit would prove it sufficiently, then I do not need Professor Dr. Hippke any more.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal is of the opinion that any farther evidence from Dr. Hippke on this point would merely be cumulative and that it has been sufficiently inquired into.
DR. BERGOLD: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: Due to the late adjournment we will recess until two o'clock.
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal is in recess until 1400 hours.
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal No. II is again in session.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honors please, I ask that the Marshal be directed to summon the witness, Krysiak.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: What language does he speak?
MR. DENNEY: German.
JOSEPH KRYSIAK, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q Please raise your right hand and repeat after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You will be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:
Q What is your name?
A My name is Joseph Krysiak.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Please spell that, Mr. Denney.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q Will you spell your last name?
A K-R-Y-S-I-A-K.
Q K-R-Y-S-I-A-K, I believe it is; is that right?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q When were you born?
A On the eighth of May, 1911.
Q Where were you born?
AAt Dortmund.
Q And Dortmund is in Germany, is it not?
A Yes.
Q Where did you go to school?
A First elementary school at Dortmund, then secondary school, and for the last eight years I went to internes' schools in Switzerland at Freiburg.
Q And what was your profession?
A I was a trained engineer and had a diploma in aircraft construction.
Q And when did you finish your schooling?
A Nineteen-thirty-six, at Berlin-Charlottenburg.
Q And thereafter did you go to work?
A I worked at the Focker works at Amsterdam, the Messerschmitt works at Augsburg.
Q What happened to you in 1940?
A On the ninth of December, 1940, I was arrested because of defeatist statements and anti-armed forces activities.
Q And where were you sent?
A I went to the concentration camp at Mauthausen for political re-training.
Q And where is Mauthausen located?
A On the Danube.
Q Near what city?
A In the neighborhood of Linz, on the river Danube.
Q What did you do for the first several months of your internment at Mauthausen?
A Until 1942 all of us worked in the quarry.
Q What did you do in the quarry?
A We had to carry stones which had been broken, and we had to load them.
Q And then did you change your employment?
A Yes, from November '42, armament work was carried out in every concentration camp.
Q Where did you go to work in November, '42?
A Beginning November, '42, the ME-109 was produced at Gussen I.
Q Where was that?
A In Gussen, which was a branch camp of Mauthausen, Gussen I.
Q And you still lived in the concentration camp while you worked there?
A Yes.
Q Did you live in a stockade?
A I was inside the camp, yes.
Q Did they have barbed wire around it?
A The camp and the place of work was surrounded by a chain of sentries.
Q And how would you describe the living conditions to the Court?
A Living and working conditions were the worst imaginable --- bad they were. Regular working hours amounted to twelve hours, and we had a watery soup at lunch, and in the morning we had coffee, and at night seven men shared a loaf of bread.
Q How were the living conditions?
A Living conditions were bad inasmuch as during this lack of food we had to work for twelve hours a day and we were beaten when we didn't reach the ceilings set for us.
Q Now, did these conditions continue until the end of the war?
A Yes. In fact, they increased during the approaching collapse.
Q Now, you say you worked at Gussen I, making the ME-109. Until when did you work there?
AAt Gussen I, I worked until February 1944; then at Gussen II in the so-called case the 262 was begun, the jet fighter plane; and I worked on that jet fighter until the collapse.
Q Now, were there other concentration camp inmates with you who worked in these jobs at Gussen I and Gussen II?
A No.
Q There were no other concentration camp inmates who worked there?
A Oh, yes. Yes, the inmates of concentration camps after 1944 came from camps dissolved from the East; and all that was transferred to Austria. Consequently, there were many prisoners amongst those who had previously worked in other armament production programs.
Q No, I don't think you understood my question. You say first you went to work in Gussen I?
A Yes.
Q In November 1942?
A Yes.
Q Were there other concentration camp inmates besides yourself who worked there in the factory?
A Oh, yes. In Gussen I, working on the ME-109, there were 3500 prisoners working, working on fuselage and wing construction.
Q In Gussen II how many concentration camp inmates were working in the factory?
AAt the time of the collapse 4800 detainees and *00 civilian workers.
Q Now, among these concentration camp inmates, will you tell the Court what nationalities you found?
A There were all nations represented, among them Norwegians, Swedes, Dutchmen, Belgians, Frenchmen, Italians, Yugoslavs, all the Eastern peoples; and there were also Americans and British there.
Q You say there were Americans and British in the concentration camp?
A Yes. Three Englishmen were with us in Gussen I; and Americans who had been shot down above Linz were with us for a few days at Gussen. Then they went to the mother camp at Mauthausen.
Q Did you talk to these men?
A Yes, one of them had been shot down. He came to the sick bay; and we talked to him. He gave us the news that we, the inmates of concentration camps, had nothing to fear since all concentration camps had been marked on maps.
Q Did they ever have inspections of the factories?
A Yes. Between the end of 1944 and the collapse, one inspection would follow the other.
Q Whom did you see at these inspections?
A Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, Gauleiter Eigruber, with his staff, and many people from the Air Ministry who came to check.
Q Did the conditions remain the same until the time of the collapse?
A Yes.
Q Incidentally, how many hours a day did you work?
A We were working at Saint George, Gussen II, for twelve hours. Also, the transport to and from work and back to this camp occupied two to three hours as well, so that these people altogether had only four to five hours sleep under the worst imaginable conditions. Four people had to sleep in one bed.
Q Did you work seven days a week?
A Yes, and the day and night shift, and Sundays, too.
Q You've told the Court about the nationalities who were in the concentration camp with you. Were there any Jews there?
A Yes.
Q Did there come a time when they brought Jews in from Hungary?
A Yes. The largest transport arrived in 1944 from Budapest. There we were concerned mostly with the intelligentsia from the city of Budapest.
Q When was that in 1944?
A I can't give you the exact date because one transport was following the other. It was in the summer of 1944.
Q You spoke about some planes which were shot down in the neighborhood of the concentration camp. Will you tell the Court what you saw?
A In July 1944 there was an air attack on Linz; and during that air attack, a number of American aircraft were shot down. They were four-engine bombers. The crew bailed out; and they were caught and taken to the concentration camp.
Q Were there inspections by Luftwaffe officers prior to 1944?
A Yes, beginning with the day when part of the armament program was transferred to the camp and particularly when the Messerschmidt production started, we had inspections monthly.
Q That was starting in November 1942?
A No, really not until the spring of 1943 when mass production had not going.
MR. DENNEY: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, you spoke of American and British prisoners of war being in this concentration camp. Were any of those working in the armament factories?
A. The Americans were up at Mauthausen, and Englishmen were at Gussen I. They were not directly used for armament work.
Q. What did they do?
A. The Englismen were working inside the camp, on camp work, and that varied.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: What effect did this work and this food and those accommodations which you have described have upon you and other inmaters in the concentration camp?
A. The most dreadful effect; the majority died in Mauthausen and Gussen II. It was a rule no one was released, but transports which were filled were where detainees would die.
Q. Could you give me any estimate on how many died in the camp in which you were located while you were there?
A. That would be difficult. I can only judge it according to the number of transports which arrived monthly; transports usually arrived from Ruschwits, from Holland and from France, and whenever any special action had taken place, and from the Balkans.
Q. Here there other prisoners of war of other nationalities besides the Americans and British in that camp?
A. You mean prisoners of war?
Q. Yes, prisoners of war, yes?
A. Yes, the Russians, and generally others, and the Yugoslavs.
Q. Were they also working in the airplane factories?
A. Yes, they had to work in the armament production.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: That is all.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:
Q. Witness, you have explained to the Tribunal that you sent to a concentration camp?
A. Yes.
Q. Did the SS take you straight into the concentration camp, or was there an intervening period?
A. No, the Gestapo took me immediately on the day of the protection on an arrest order, which was a red ticket.
Q. Did the Gestapo do that?
A. Yes.
Q. Witness, you have told us that in 1944 large transports arrived from the East?
A. Yes.
Q. When in '44 was this?
A. It was the beginning of the Autumn of 1944. I think in October, these were larger transports.
Q. Yes, I understand that. Witness, I did not quite understand when the Americans were captured. Was it June or July, or the 1st of July?
A. Yes.
Q. The seventh month?
A. Yes, July 1944, during their attack on Linz.
Q. By whom were these Americans taken to camp?
A. It was after they had been shot down by aircraft guns, and they were taken to camp.
Q. By whom?
A. We were not present. We only saw them arrive in camp, since we could not walk outside the camp.
Q. How many days did they stay in camp?
A. They were in Gussen I two days, and then they went over to Mauthausen.
Q. Do you know how long they remained at Mauthausen?
A. No.
Q. Do you know when they left there?
A. No, I don't know.
Q You don't know, I see. You were talking about Englishmen too?
A Yes.
Q How long were these Englishmen with you?
A They were there for eight months at Gussen.
Q Were they prisoners of war?
A They were listed as prisoners of war.
Q Why did they go to a concentration camp, do you know that?
A I am not absolutely certain, but there were rumors they would run away.
Q Witness, you were saying that there were inspections?
A Yes, that is correct, regularly.
Q Were there inspections taken on finished products?
A No. Another commission came separately, and a certain Captain Frank from Regensburg was ahead of them.
Q And at these inspections, what did they inspect?
A They were mainly interested in raising the production, and getting more stuff out of the camp.
Q Did you talk to any members of this inspection group?
A No, not before the trial -- before the collapse. In November 1944, I was confronted during a conference when such an inspection took place.
Q But did any detainees from the camp talk to these inspectors?
A No, they did not have a chance.
Q I don't quite understand the expression, "They did not have a chance."
A They did not get in touch with these inspection parties.
Q So the inspection party did not come to the detainees?
A They went through the camp, but no detainee would have dared to accost an official of the party, or an inspector.
Q So you did not raise any complaint to any such inspecting official?
A No, we could not and we were not allowed to do that.
Q. Did you ever see the former Fieldmarshal Milch, who is sitting at the far end of this bench, during such inspection?
A. No.
2370 a
Q. About how far was Gussen I and II away from Mauthausen?
A. That is the next place from Mauthausen, which was ten or twelve kilometers.
Q. Ten or twelve kilometers, I see. Was that where you slept at Gussen or did you sleep at Mauthausen?
A. I slept at GussenI, Gussen I and II, first, usually Gussen I where the ME-109 was being produced, and later this subterranean factory was built and was established near Gussen II, and it was all a part of Mauthausen. The mother camp was Mauthausen.
Q. Where were those motors that you were talking about at?
A. The one I am talking about now?
Q. These places of work I mean? At Mauthausen?
A. No. The bunch you were talking about, they were at Gussen I and II.
Q. Were they in factories outside?
A. They were outside, factories of that camp.
Q. In which camp was that, a special camp?
A. There was a special camp for that.
Q. You said that you had been beaten?
A. Yes.
Q. Who beat you?
A. I can say with my regrets that the civilians were later on worse than the SS people; that is the Regensburg civilians coming from the ME-109 works in Regensburg, and also the foremen coming from the camp.
Q. When did they come, the foremen?
A. These foremen arrived when the production increased in the concentration camp.
Q. And they went inside the camp?
A. They were living in barracks outside the camps.
Q. Until 1942 you worked in the quarry, you said?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many hours did you have to work there a day?
A. We had to work eight to ten hours a day, working for the Reichs Party.
2371 a Rally, for which I had to break up stones.
Q. You mean, the "Schwarzbide"?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, that was really heavy work, wasn't it?
A. Yes, we worked with heavy sledge hammers all day in breaking up stones. You can imagine what that meant, too, with this nourishment can't you.
Q. Then the work at Mauthausen, apart from its duration, was that heavier than the factory or quarry work?
A. Normally speaking under normal circumstances.
Q. You can really apply it to any type of work, can you?
A. No.
Q. And what work did you do at Gussen?
A. At Gussen I and II I was in the quarry, when they would blast the stones, and they were loaded into a truck and taken to the stone mason barracks.
Q. I am talking about Gussen?
A. We were working in the ME-109, and later on we were making wings, as well as working on the moving belt.
Q. This work would normally be carried out elsewhere, wouldn't it?
A. Yes, but under much different living conditions.
Q. But it was normal factory work, actually?
A. Actually, yes.
Q. You said you had Swedes working with you?
A. Yes, Swedes and some Swiss were also here.
Q. Swiss?
A. Yes, I remember we had a lot of Swiss.
Q. How did they happen to come into a concentration camp?
A. That I can not tell you. They were political detainees.
Q. Were they not common citizens?
A. I cannot imagine that but a lot of them were in the concentration camp nevertheless.
Q. But the Swedes and Swiss had not been occupied by our victorious armies.
A. Yes, but they were in our concentration camp, some were block clerks and some were just working as Swiss and Swedes.
Q. You said "block clerks" in the plant. They were supervisors and in the personnel, is that right?
A. No, they had this administrative work, which they did.
DR. BERGOLD: Thank you, very much.
THE PRESIDENT: Were you ever taken before a court, or given a hearing before being sent to a concentration camp.
THE WITNESS: No, simply arrested by the Gestapo.
Q. You were simply arrested by the Gestapo, and the next thing that happened, you were in the concentration camp?
A. Yes, and the reason given was political, re-schooling.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, that is as good as any indication.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: What was the state of your health prior to your concentration camp experience?
A. All I can say now is that I suffer from TB, and I am being medically treated, and this is what those five years did to me.
Q. What was your condition before going to the concentration camp?
A. I was active in sports, and I was a long distance runner. I can say my lungs were not affected at all.
Q. You now are impeded in the normal enjoyments of life because of this infliction?
A. Yes, without a question.
Q. What was the exact nature of the deed which you committed, which brought to you your commitment to the concentration camp?
A. It was a statement of a free opinion. Of course, I did not know that it would be interpreted the way it was.
Q. Was it confined entirely to an oral utterance?
A. Yes, not in a general question, it was a detailed statement I never thought in a discussion like that could lead to imprisonment in a concentration camp.
Q. Had you taken up any physical opposition to the regime?
A. That is a difficult question to answer. During my last life abroad in 1938 I had a lot of friends abroad, having been educated in Switzerland, and it is natural, of course, that you would hear a great deal, and then coming back to Germany you checked up, and one would try again and again to talk to people and to hear their opinions, too.
Q. Then your offense was talking?
A. Yes.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q We are wondering what it was that you said that caused you to be sent to prison.
A. First of all, in 1940, I was of the opinion and made the statement having come back from Berlin, that if American entered the war, we would lose it. I knew that, on the other hand, the South Eastern Army was being put together in Munich, and I was having my private doubts about that too. In connection with that, I spoke to one or another of my comrades about that, not knowing that one would go along and report everything to the Gestapo.
Q. What did you say to your friends in Munich about the military situation?
A. Until 1940 there was not much to say. We were always advancing. The Germany army was always advancing. Set-backs did not occur until the time I was in prison.
Q. Well, then, first you said that it was your opinion that when America entered the war, that would be decisive against Germany?
A. Yes, and conditions in Europe were coming to such a critical pitch that one day America would have to enter the war.
Q. Well, did you in your talk advocate overthrowing the German government?
A. No.
Q. It does not seem that you said anything serious enough to be sent to a concentration camp. Was there anything else that you said?
A. No, but if, for instance, you believed and said that Germany might lose the war, that was enough to be taken to a concentration camp or at least to go to a concentration camp for a length of time.
Apart from that, you must add in my case that later on I was speaking about that I was having qualms about metal alloys which in 1940 were not as good as they should have been in order to manufacture first line aircraft.
Q Well, you see, when you expressed the opinion that Germany was about to lose the war, you should have been a field marshal. Then nothing would have happened to you.
A That is something I don't know about.
Q No.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other questions?
MR. DENNEY: No further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may be excused.
(The witness was excused.)
MR. DENNEY: We have nothing further, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: You mean that concludes the Prosecution's proof?
MR. DENNEY: Yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Have you anything further, Dr. Bergold?
DR. BERGOLD: No.
THE PRESIDENT: At 2:49 proofs are concluded. On Tuesday morning at 9:30 Counsel will be prepared to sum up. No shall recess until that time.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess until 0930 hours, Tuesday, 25 March.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 0930 hours, 25 March 1947.)
Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 25 March 1947, 0930 hours, Justice Toms presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal 2. Military Tribunal 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the courtroom.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Tribunal. In my opening statement I drew a picture of the defendant Milch which differs considerably from the description given by the prosecution. It is my hope that in the long course of producing evidence I have given proof that my conception that I have taken is as full truth.
According to the testimony of the witness Richter, the affidavit of the witness Von Mueller, and according to the defendant Milch's own testimony, nobody can doubt that Milch has never been a good National Socialist. His love for peace and his longing for a final understanding between the nations of Europe, especially between Belgium, France, England, and Germany, became completely obvious. No one who believes in justice would refuse to believe him if he states that he regarded the war as a misfortune. He was also one of the few intelligent men to admit Germany's defeat in the First World War. There was no proof applied first in any way prior to 1933 that he supported any armaments. His testimony and military affidavit from Von Mueller have shown under his management the Luftwaffe was always a peaceful instrument of communication among the nations. It is to be regarded that the examination of foreign politicians, such as Van Zeeland, Pierre Cot, and Von Delbos, had not been permitted, because only then the personality of Milch would have been shown in its true light. He must have been a peaceful and just man; otherwise, all these statesmen would not have had confidence in him. Even the witness delegate Messerschmidt, whose affidavit Document 1960-PS was introduced in the International Military Tribunal proceedings, affirmed that Milch condemned the coercive methods of the Nazis. He was different from the other Party members, that after 1937 he lost Goering's confidence.