May I do so?
MR. DENNEY: If Your honor please, the document doesn't seem to be very long, and perhaps it's about time for the Court's usual recess we could have it translated into English. The only thing that appears here is in German. During the recess we can call upon one of the interpreters to translate it into English and have it facilitate the matter for everyone concerned. It's just about a page.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the Court will take its recess, and will you advise the Court when the translation has been finished and we will resume.
MR. DENNEY: Yes, Your honor.
MARSHAL: This Tribunal is recessed for approximately 15 minutes.
(A recess was taken)
Q Mr. Witness, I shall now read to you the statement made by Gauleiter Sauckel during the session of the 1st of March 1944. Sauckel says: "I would like to call your attention again to the question of volunteers and the whole working of the French labor assignment. The labor program has never been carried out in France on a voluntary basis."
Mr. Witness, you heard the statement by Sauckel according to which in France there was never a recruiting of workers on a voluntary basis. What do you say to that statement by Sauckel; is it correct, or is it not correct?
A I can't imagine that this statement made by Sauckel is true.
Q What do you think was his aim at the time to make such a statement; do you have any idea about that matter?
A I can only imagine that he made such statements in order to shift the guilt for not having fulfilled those requirements and to shift the responsibility on other people's shoulders and to clear himself thus.
Q Was it known to you that Speer made certain remarks to him in that connection, or reproaches?
A It was known to me repeatedly that Speer reproached Sauckel heatedly regarding the methods of his work. Sauckel frequently made exaggerated reports of the figures.
Q What do you think was the attitude of the Central Planning toward these reports?
A. The Central Planning did not have any attitude whatever concerning these reports; only as I mentioned before, Speer considered the Central Planning as a purely informational center for the purpose of getting a clear picture of the whole situation.
Q Did they believe these reports to be true?
A No, nobody believed him. What was the reason why Speer wanted to inform himself on the subject in order to be able to get an absolutely clear picture, and to be able to report to the Fuehrer concerning the measures Sauckel took; and also to be able to prove to the Fuehrer that what Sauckel said very often did not correspond with the facts.
Q What was Hitler's attitude toward those reports?
A That I do not know.
Q Thank you. Witness, do you know the secret decrees issued by Himmler to his Police Office and to the SD, Security Service, concerning the cruel treatment of foreign labor; were they known to you?
A. They were not known to me.
Q Do you know the complaints which Rosenberg made concerning the work carried out by Sauckel, and were they known to you?
A No, I don't know anything about that either.
Q Witness, Were the conditions in Poland known to you. Concerning the Polish workers, did you ever receive such information from the SS or other sources, as for instance, from Lammers?
A I never received such information.
Q Do you know if Milch, I mean through reports received through Sauckel, knew of these conditions or if he ever learned about the conditions during the recruitment of these foreign laborers?
A. No, I don't believe so. If so, such reports are not known to me either.
Q Sauckel, with an affidavit, said that he was to report to the Central Planning; is that correct?
A I do not know anything about it, because such information, had I received it, would have been known to me even today.
Q I shall now proceed to one of the documents of the prosecution. Document Book 1 B. This is exhibit No. 30, Document 407 VPS, 15 April 1943, which is a letter from Sauckel to Hitler concerning questions of labor. In this letter Sauckel explains that now French laborers were to come to the Reich under the same terms and conditions as the former laborers. He reports that he had gotten in touch with the OKW and he asks that 10,000 Belgian prisoners of war be placed under the same status as the French are. Does that concern the exchange of those laborers who came to the Reich on a voluntary basis with PW's.
A I do not know that letter and therefore I do not know the whole matter. However, I can imagine that Sauckel was looking for something similar and was trying to carry out something similar with what had been carried out in France by an agreement.
Q Did the Air Ministry General direct his applications for labor to the Central Planning or did the(air-force industry or) the Luftwaffe industry ask for or require labor through another channel? What do you know about that?
Q The industry passed the labor requirements to the labor offices directly.
Q Did the Central Planning Board never receive requests from industry for labor assignments?
AAs far as I remember, never, and of course, it would have been impossible that the Central Planning could actually fill such requirements of the various industrial branches, because the Central Planning did not have the task to supervise the labor distribution.
Q Witness, you mentioned before that Speer did not believe the numbers mentioned by Sauckel. Could you tell me what Milch's attitude was concerning this matter?
AAs far as I can remember the attitude of Milch was the same as Speer's.
Q I shall now proceed to the Milch case or to the later happenings which happened on the 16th day of February 1943. This Was during the 32nd conference of the Central Planning Board. The happenings are described in Document Book of the Prosecution--Document Book 3 A. It's a conference, the 31st meeting, Document No. R-124. The seventh happening in the English index of the 32nd meeting -- 33rd meeting -- it was page 22, 98 in the original English Document Book 3 A. Milch speaks about Russian prisoners of war and that these prisoners of war were used in France. The original page of the document is 2298 and which is on page 34 of the English Document Book.
THE PRESIDENT: What page number?
DR. BERGOLD: It's on page 34, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Of the original document?
DR. BERGOLD: 2298, Your honor. Milch is talking about Russian prisoners of war having been used in the flak or anti-aircraft artillery. Do you know what was Milch's attitude concerning this matter? Was he for it or against it?
A It's very difficult for me to determine, after such a long time and to remember such a single case. If I do remember that, I would, of course, have to remember very vaguely that Milch was against such an assignment with respect to his decision; of course, for the time being I can't be very sure about it.
Q I now give you this passage and I will show it to you so that you can read it. (Witness is handed document).
A The contents appear there. What I can remember from memory -
Q However, doesn't this sentence, "We made the request or we requested--" does that not mean that he requested it, or what else does it mean? -666
A I can't imagine that Milch could have made such a request and this is a general expression that was used there.
-666a
Q Thank you. Witness, do you remember that in the general conference of the Central Planning Board there was talk about shirkers?
A Yes, indeed.
Q. What measures did the Central Planning Beard take against these shirkers.
A. The Central Planning could not take any steps. I can remember however that this matter -
Q. Was there an agreement? Did they come to a solution?
A. As I mentioned before, the Central Planning Board could not take any measures and could not come to a solution. When there was any such question in the Central Planning Board, then it was not at all difficult then to Inform one's self about these matters.
Q. Do you know decrees by Milch to subordinate the Wehrmacht part or to the industry which ordered a murder like hanging or shooting or a cruelty against foreign laborers, P**s, or German workers?
A. I do not know of any such decrees, and I can't imagine that Milch over could have given such a decree because he was not empowered to do so.
Q. Did Milch ever send anybody to the concentration camp?
A. No, I don't know anything about that, either, and I can' t imagine that.
Q. In the conferences of the Central Planning Board there were minutes. Were these minutes ever controlled by the responsible agencies?
Q. I do not know anything about these verbatim minutes, and if they were controlled after the conferences. I doubt it very much if they were controlled again thereafter.
Q. Do you remember that during the session of the first of March 1944 Milch made the statement that Russian officers who more prisoners and tried to escape were shot upon his orders ?
A. What I know is that Milch himself had no possibility whats over to issue such orders.
If he ever made such a statement during one of the conferences of the Central Planning Board -if Milch ever made such a statement, that is, then it was, of course, gener 668a ally speaking.
Q. What do you mean by "generally speaking"? Did he mention measures taken by some other agency or by his own agency?
A. As far as I can remember, Milch very often reported on measures taken by other agencies and very often he mentioned decrees by Hitler, and he informed those people of the Central Planning Heard there. It is possible that this statement made my Milch was also that ho informed the people of the Central Planning Board concerning the decrees issued by Hitler.
Q. Did it over occur during conferences of the Central Planning Board that Milch, when he announced such decrees, mentioned those and what orders were given to the secretaries.
A. Milch, as far as I can remember, was not very careful with his statements. As far as I can remember, when he reported decrees by the Fuehrer very often he used the "I' in this particular sense. It was known to me and as a friend I often pointed out -- or I pointed out to Milch that he should be more careful when he quotes Goering and Hitler. in this small circle, I said, there is no danger whatsoever that someone might misunderstand such statements. However, one never knows such statements cannot be misunderstood by other people who are not as reliable as we are. That could be interpreted in the wrong sense, which, of course, bears the danger of a wrong interpretation of Milch as a person.
Q. Is it correct that in such cases the secretaries were often asked to change or to leave out such passage, so that one couldn't know who mas spoken about?
A. This did not only happen once, as far as I know, but many times that both Speer as well as Milch, when statements were made or criticisms were made, that they asked the secretaries that they were not to put those statements the way they were into the minutes.
I remember that Speer once said, then at least remove the word "Fuehrer" or "Hitler".
669a
Q. Is it correct that Milch very often used strong words?
A. That --- yes, indeed. Not only I can say that, but I am sure other people will donfirm that. Milch was very often somewhat excited, over-temperamental, and we always said to each other that Milch could never get rid of his old lieutenant attitude, Whoever know him always valued his statements accordingly. An in this particular small circle it was natural that such statements were interpreted to correspond with the temperment of Milch.
Q. When Milch spoke concerning shooting and hangings, during such statements was that taken seriously?
A. I don't believe that any one of us considered this seriously for the very simple reason that he did not have the right and he was not empowered to make such shootings and to issue such decree 3. Did Milch later on apologize when he made such statements, or what did he do when ho spoke to someone in such strong words?
A. I know of many cases when Milch, when he couldn't control himself and used strong words against one or the other of those present, that after the session, after the end of the conferences he walked up to the man and he told him not to take his words so tragically.
Q. Is it not true that such outbursts of Milch occurred, after his accident in Stalingrad, that is, when his car came under a locomotive?
A. His temperament outbursts- undoubtedly happened immediately after this accident, and they were considerable. During the last few days of the war we said to each other, "How is it possible that Milch can let himself go in such a way?" We all know, however, what the reasons were for his situation.
Q. That happening in Stalingrad was early in 1943, wasn't it?
A. Yes, it was during the fighting for Stalingrad.
Q. I shall now proceed to the Jaegerstab. Could you tell us w purpose the Jaegerstab served?
A. As far as I can remember, and as far as I know, the Jaegerstab was created and ordered to produce as many defense planes as possible.
Q. Did the fighter staff also have the purpose to remove the air armament from the cycle of Goering and transfer it to the Speer Ministry?
A. Yes, as far as I know, and I heard that that was going to happen, as far as Speer was concerned, at least.
Q. Is it known to you, furthermore, that Milch already at the time of the creation of the Jaegerstab, wanted to resign from his positions?
A. Statements made by Milch to be able to withdraw from his positions, I heard lots of times. I believe that such statements had already been made much earlier. Then in 1943 and 1944 these statements occurred over and over again, particularly due to his physical condition. He noticed it himself that he couldn't possibly cope with all the tasks which were put on his shoulders, due to his particular disease as a result of the accident.
Q. Is it known to you that Milch at the time did not want to take the job of Air Ordnance Master General?
A. As far as I can remember, yes. That was after the death of Udet, when this assignment was offered to him and he told both Goering and Hitler that he did not want to take it, and that it would be more correct to give this job to some one else. I believe that he mentioned one name of some one who could be used for this particular job.
Q. Is it correct that within the Jaegerstab, when they discussed the results, not Milch but Sauer reported on the results of the work of the Jaegerstab?
A. Of course, I cannot make enact statements concerning this matter, because Goerieg at that particular time always was in his 671a headquarters.
However it is known to me that at that time Sauer very often reported to Goering, and I can also remember very clearly that I was wondering at the time that Milch at that time never reported to Goering.
Q. I just want to see if I forgot a question, Your Honors. I think we are reaching the end now. Was Milch in a position to address himself to the OKW, OFM, and OKL in his position as a member of the Central Planning Board?
A. No, this is absolutely impossible. I would have liked to see that agency which would have taken orders from the Central Planning Board.
Q. I shall now proceed to the 21st session of the Central Planning Board. It is document book 3b of the Prosecution. This is the session of 30 October 1942, and the English index on the 7th page of the index in book 3b, it is the second item from the top, the 21st meeting. This concerns pages 1054, 1055, and 1056. Witness, in that session Sauckel spoke and said that he wanted to have direct supervision over the prisoners of war. Filch thereupon told him that the correct channel, or the correct way to do it, would be that all the Stalags would be transferred to him. The Wehrmacht makes these people prisoners and as soon as they are relinquished, the first delivery then goes to your organizations, and everything is O.K.
Court No. 2 (lrz) Sauckel said, "Yes, but we do not have sufficient personnel for guarding the prisoners," and Milch:
(The Wehrmacht should have to provide you with that.) That is 1056 of the original -- yes, on page 69 of the English Document Book, Your Honor. He just said, "Milch: The man who acts, there for you can wear a uniform all right and be a soldier. Only his superior will not be Herr Reinecke, but Herr Sauckel." Now, do you understand. that question, Witness?
A. The request made by Sauckel was impossible to be so, so that those statements could be an opportunity in order to criticize him about this particular requirement. I can not understand it in any other way.
Q. What do you mean by criticize? May I understand your statement in such a way that at the time you took it in such a way that the statement made by Milch was not serious?
A. No, his statement was never taken seriously; such request would not have been so anyway.
Q. Did not Speer, when he joined in a conference of the Central planning Board, when he had a discussion with Sauckel , always call Milch to attend those?
A. Yes, it had been done repeatedly. If often occurred that when Speer in order to get through with certain important thin s, that he called upon Milch to help him.
Q. According to the documents around 1943 the French Government issued the Amalgamation for work. You remember he spoke about that matter before?
A. Yes, I can remember that vaguely, that the French Government took such a measure.
Q. Do you know if that decree of the French Government was a legal thing, or an illegal one?
A. The French Government order was a legal procedure I am sure.
Q. In the affidavit General Fieldmarshal Milch said that according to the Fuehrer's order to Kluge and to Speer. As to Speer, was that made here in his capacity as Rearmament Minister, or as member of the Central Planning Board?
A. No. not as member of the Central Planning Board only as a Rearmament Minister - 673a)
Q. Do you know if Milch over made a report to Hitler concerning the general construction situation?
A. No, I don't know about that.
Q. Who was assigned the job of distributing labor to the various factories, and to the final factories?
A. The working organization -- or rather the Labor Offices.
Q. Do you know that Milch around 1943 told Hitler that the war was lost?
A. Yes, indeed, I can remember that very well. I can remember that Milch had a long conference with Hitler, and that is when Milch mentioned that matter.
Q. Was it known to you that Milch in a small circle of theirs expressed that feeling that the war was lost?
A. I mentioned before, that Milch very often was very free in his speeches, and very frank, and that he made such statements very often, and that he was not afraid to criticize anything.
Q. Is it known to you that between Hitler and Milch certain considerable differences existed, which planes should be built for the Luftwaffe, fighters or bombers?
A. Yes, that is known to me. I know that there were considerable differences concerning those planes, which Hitler joined in as well as Milch. Milch knew what he wanted, and he wanted a very strong defensive arm or weapon, which was the only way he first saw, to strike the enemy with bomber formations, whereas, Hitler always tried to accentuate attack planes, and that is all I know about this matter.
Q. This is the last question to you. Can you tell us how the cooperation changed between Milch nd Goering during the last few days of the war?
A. The situation that existed between Goering and Milch at the beginning became worse and worse from time to time. Particularly, I remember one particular case during the last few years where the relationship between Milch and Goering became more tense. The tension as far as I can remember was caused by the fact that Mich wanted a much stronger Court No. 2 (lrz) representation in his point of view, which, of course, was Goering's point of view too, and that was - 674a) Court No. 2 (lrz) enforcing of the defensive armament of the Luftwaffe, and that Milch made a reproach to Goering that he was not energetic enough on that question, and that he did not get it through with Hitler.
DR. BERGOLD: With that, Your Honor, I am through with the examination of the witness, and I shall place the witness at the disposal of the Prosecution. Before Mr. Denney does start, I have a few difficulties to discuss with you, Your Honor. Many of the witnesses which were granted me, especially those called, who are in the hands of the American Occupational Forces, have not been brought to Nurnberg as yet. I spoke about this several times, and I know I spoke to the Prosecution about it, who promised me that the witnesses would be brought to Nurnberg as fast as possible. I as a lawyer have no possibility whatever to bring the witnesses here to Nurnberg, neither those, who are in the custody of the Americans and the British, nor those who are free witnesses which are in Germany, the defense counsel has no right to do so. Therefore, the International Tribunal at the time had granted, all the witnesses be brought to Nurnberg. I had worked out a plan of examination of the witnesses, which of course, might collapse tomorrow, because the witnesses are not present. I would appreciate it very much if the Tribunal could order that these witnesses be brought here as soon as possible, and that the whole matter be expedited.
THE PRESIDENT: How many of these witnesses are now here, Doctor, here in Nurnberg?
DR. BERGOLD: Of these witnesses which I need for the continuation of the discussion of the Central Flaming Board and the Jaegerstab as known in general, are only have witnesses, who are in connection with the question of the Dachau experiments, by most important witnesses have not appeared as yet. Of course, for the time being I can continue the Dachau experiments, even if my beautiful plans are collapsed.
THE PRESIDENT: We don't want to handicap you in the presentation of your proof in the order in which you prefer it. Of course, the Tribunal has no means itself of transporting your witnesses here, that is to be done through army channels. However, the Tribunal has ordered the production of the - 675 witnesses, and we will see that they are produced, whether they can be done "a la carte" just when you want them, then that presents some practical difficulties.