Of course I lived according to the ideology of my husband and I have raised my children in that ideology. My husband was a liberal. He was, as someone said about him once, "open to the world and still true to his country," and that is low the atmosphere in the entire hero was best described. Since my husband had served for forty years of his life in the entire world in America, in England, in Europe, in the Far East, Africa, and was known throughout for his ideology of love of human beings, of respect for the individual and respect for the opinion of the individual, I have tried to continue in this vein. The circle of people that gathered in our home was very large and it included members of all nations. That brought it about that our house , our home, was a natural adversary to the ideology of the Hazis.
Q. Will you please tell us when you were arrested?
A. I was arrested on 12 January 1944 together with my sister, in whose house I lived, her housekeeper and my daughter.
Q. So far as you know, what was the overt act which led to your arrest?
A. I did not quite understand this.
Q. What was the cause of your arrest, as far as you were told by the people who arrested you? Were you ever given any reason at the time of your arrest or afterwards?
A. Then I was arrested there were four officials of the Gestapo and criminal police officials. I asked and I was told I would find out later.
Q. I seem to remember in the accounts which I have read of your arrest that one of the charges brought against you was that you, at one time in the fall of 1943, attended a certain social tea; do you remember that to party and what if any connection it had with your eventual apprehension by the Gestapo?
A. There was a tea party at Miss von Tadden's on 10 December 1943.
Q. One moment please, who was Miss von Tadden?
A. Fraulein von Tadden was the principal of a finishing school near Heidleberg. Her idealogy was outspoken Christian ideology. The school was dissolved in 1942 by the Ministry. Miss von Tadden was then unemployed. Later, she took a job with the Red Cross. She was, at that time, in Paris, but she came here on vacations together with friends. She was, first of all, interested in church matters. She had invited the Under secretary Zarben who under Bruening was in the Reich Treasury at the time of the seizure of power by the Nazis. He had to relinquish his office because his wife was Jewish. Besides him, General Consul Kieb was invited. He had been General Consul in New York. He hold a side job at OKW in Berlin. Among those present was also Legationsrat Scherpenberg from the Foreign Office, Auswaertige Amt, Miss von Kurowski and Fraulein Zarben who was there with her father.
I had been invited by telephone after the tea party had already started. They all had the same ideology and were good friends. There were several other gentlemen, one was a stranger who was introduced to mo as Dr. Reckzeh. I think I was with him for half an hour. The conversation, of course, was about the general condition. All of us were of the opinion that something had to happen to end the war. I spoke very little. I mentioned during the course of the discussion that it was really impossible to speak of victory at a time when Italy was lost. The submarines did not work any more. The secret weapon which had been promised for a long time did not appear. It did not materialize.
Q. Did you not, also, at this time, have with you letters which you gave to Dr. Reckzeh for delivery to Switzerland? Will you elaborate upon that phase of the party please?
A. In my handbag, by coincidence, I had three letters for Switzerland. It that time, we had to bring letters to the Post Officer personally with our passport, and that took quite some time. Therefore, I had the letters in my handbag for several days, and when Miss von Tadden said that Dr. Reckzeh was going to Switzerland, and could also take along my letters which were un-political, I told him quite openly if he had any difficulty, he should just thrown them away. He took them along. On account of these letters, during the interrogations by the Gestapo, I had no difficulties because they found them quite uninteresting. They thought I should be reprimanded. President Freisler, however, later spoke about these -
Q. I think, perhaps, Mrs. Solf, we are getting ahead of our story a little. May I ask you, again, who this individual was to whom you gave the letters?
A. Dr. Reckzeh. He was a young doctor from Charity Hospital in Berlin. I did not know anything about him. Miss von Tadden had introduced, me to him as a young man, who for scientific medical reasons, had an opportunity to go to Switzerland frequently to take up contacts with neutrals and immigrants, opponents of Nazis, at any rate.
I did not see him either before or after except as a witness in my trial.
Q. You previously said that the letters which you handed to him were only personal, they contained nothing whatsoever that could be construed as political, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. After you were arrested by the Gestapo, where were you taken? Incidentally, where were you arrested?
A. I was arrested in the morning at 8:30 together with the three persons I have named before. We were put into two cars and brought to Munich to the -
Q. From where?
A. Partenkirchen. We were brought into the RSHA, the Reich Security Main Office, the Gestapo Prison in Munich. I separated immediately from the other three and I was taken to a room where Criminal Counselor Struebing questioned me. I was questioned in the morning and in the afternoon and in the evening. I believe that was the first day for about eight hours. Our cells were very primative. Two female detectives were in one room. The next day I was again interrogated by Struebling. In the evening he told me that he was compelled to send me to Berlin. My daughter, my sister and housekeeper remained in Munich under arrest.
First I was put into barracks for three weeks at Concentration Camp Sachsenhausen near Oranienburg. From there I was taken to Berlin for interrogations, first to Prinz-Albrechtstrasse and then when that had been bombed out, to Kurfuerstendamm.
Q. One moment please. May I get clear where you went from the Concentration Camp Sachsenhausen? Did you move from Sachsenhausen to Berlin or did you move to some other camp first?
A. From Sachsenhausen, no. From Munich we arrived in Sachsenhausen in the evening. Every two or three days, I was taken for interrogations to the R.S.V.A.
Q. Were you later transferred to another concentration camp prior to the time you were moved to Berlin?
A. On the fifth of February, together with Miss von Tadden, and another lady who was later released. I was brought to Ravensbrueck. Ravensbrueck was the large concentration camp for women. We were brought to a prison consisting of individual cells. From that day on, I was always in an individual cell.
Q How long did you remain at Ravensbrueck?
A It must have been the tenth of June. Until the tenth of June, I was in Ravensbrueck, Q Were you interrogated further by the Gestapo during your period of stay at Ravensbrueck?
Can you tell us about that?
A Yes. There, the difficult, severe, long interrogation started, and in March my daughter also was brought there and was subjected to the same interrogations as I was.
Q What were the nature of the interrogations? I mean by that, the interrogations conducted at your convenience or under what conditions were they hold?
A We only had harshops, and if I may say so, everybody was against us. Mostly we were interrogated during the night. In the evening, we were taken out after we had fallen asleep. We had to dress quickly and were taken about 20 kilometers to the police school at Dreegen by automobile where the Reich Security Main Office of the Gestapo had its office, after the office in Berlin had been bombed out.
Q Approximately how long did these interrogations continue at each session, on the average, would you say?
A They never took less than eight hours-- mostly ten hours, fourteen hours without food. They were cross examinations. We were treat ened and severe measures were threatened. I had one night interrogation where three weeks in advance I had been put on a hunger diet. In the evening I received a sleeping pill, and then an hour or an hour and a half later they woke me up. All these things were quite obvious in order to intimidate us and in order to make us insecure. My daughter had the same hardships and interrogations and suffered from the same threats and intimidations.
Q What point did the Gestapo seem to be driving toward in these interrogations? What admissions were they attempting to get from you?
A The first interrogations which referred to my first trial continue until the end of March or the beginning of April. They all had to do with the conversations at that tea party, and I was to be forced to state in particular what Miss von Tadden and Consul General Kieb had talked about.
From the very beginning, one was asked how one's feelings toward national socialism was, and I never left any doubt in the minds of the Gestapo officials that I rejected it. There points I emphasized at all times: One was the right for free expression of opinion; the second was persecution of the Jews; and the third was persecution of the Christian religions. Consequently, at the end of my interrogations for the first trial, these points were brought out as the essence, and forwarded by the Gestapo to the People's Court. It was hold against me and I had to deny it, otherwise I would be brought before the People's Court for reasons of my attitude, and as I was told, that would be the decisive factor for the People's Court.
Q Mrs. Solf, I have the full appreciation for the delicacy of the next question which I am about to ask. You have referred several times to your sympathy with and aid in behalf of persecuted Jews in Germany. May I ask you a personal question? What is your religion?
A I am Protestant.
Q Now during the time that you were hold at Ravensbrueck, were you permitted to communicate with friends or consult legal counsel at any time up to the time you were removed from Ravensbrueck?
A I was permitted to write letters to my children, also business letters, and I also received mail, I could never have any visitors As a prisoner of the Gestapo, I could not have any counsel. It was only due to the great concern of my youngest son who had returned from the front to Berlin in order to see me and found out there that his mother had been imprisoned by the Gestapo-- it was due to this concern of my son that he sent me a gentleman whom he knew in order to get news from the outside. Apart from that, I had no connection with the outside.
Q When did your first learn officially that you were to be tried by the People's Court?
A I was never notified officially. Until the very last moment I was not aware of it. In the beginning of July, we were told that we would be brought away, but not where we were to go, and not for what purpose. Only through rumors and from other prisoners, I received information that I was to be brought before the People's Court together with the friends I have mentioned before.
Q Excuse me, may I have that date again? When were you told by rumor that you right be tried by the People's Court? Did you say the beginning of July?
A The beginning of June.
Q Now, prior to the time that you were actually brought before the People's Court for trial, were you removed from Ravensbrueck, and if so, to what prison, please?
A Miss von Trodden, Miss Kurowski, Miss Zarden and I were taken by two Gestapo officials into the prison at Cottbus. The men in our trial, Kiep and Herr von Scherpenberg were brought into the penitentiary in Brandenburg.
Q Cottbus is a penitentiary for women inmates and Brandenburg is an equivalent institution for men, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q They are both in the vicinity of Berlin?
A Cottbus is net far-- I don't know how many kilometers from Berlin, and Brandenburg is closer to Berlin and is west of Berlin. Cottbus is to the south of Berlin.
Q From Cottbus, where were you transferred prior to the trial?
A. From Cottbus, where I tried to make an application to be brought before an investigation judge, which was not even answered, on the 30th of June, we were taken to the prison at Koabit pending trial. We arrived in the afternoon, the usual processing took about an hour, and then we were handed the indictment which had been dated a few days before but had not been given to us at the time.
Q Before we get into the question of the indictment, may I ask you under what circumstances were arrangements made for defense counsel for yourself pending trial?
A It was extremely difficult since I had no idea that I was to be brought before the People's Court, I had not made any preparations. My oldest son who happened to be in Berlin at that time then asked Dr. Dicks to be my defense counsel.
Q Excuse me. That is Dr. Rudolf Dicks?
A. Yes. He had done that already in May. A letter in answer to the request of my son was sent by Dr. Dicks to Ravensbrueck saying that he was prepared, of course if necessary, to take over my defense. That letter was not given to me by the Gestapo. It was about three weeks later when by accident it was found among my files, and Criminalrat Lauer gave it to me with thin excuses. At Cottbus later I tried to give him my power of attorney. There were difficult conditions concerning mail and I owe the fact that I put the signature of that power of attorney to the coincidence that a relative of Miss Kurowski who had come to Cottbus for that purpose made it possible that I could affix my signature for Dr. Dicks on that document.
All four of us were standing in the doors of Moabit, of course full of fears, looking for our defense counsel. I owe it only to the care of Dr. Dicks that we found each other.
Q Mrs. Solf, may I interrupt you here and ask when you first met Dr. Dicks, your defense counsel; I mean in connection with this trial.
A Yes, it must have been that afternoon at about five o'clock; the afternoon of June 30th.
Q The afternoon of June 30th?
A On the afternoon of the 30th of June; we had arrived, it may have been three o'clock when we arrived, and then there were several formalities to take care of; then we looked for the defense counsel; it may have been five o'clock, or later, when I found him.
Q You arrived there on the 30th of June; is that correct?
A Yes, indeed.
Q And shortly after your arrival you first met in connection with this trial your defense counsel. When, may I ask, was the indictment served on you?
A The indictment was handed to us between the formality after the arrival, which took about one hour, and the time when we found, I can only say when we found Dr. Dicks. I may have had a chance to read it for about ten minutes, then I could talk to Dr. Dicks for one hour.
Q That is the total time that you spoke with him prior to going to trial the next morning; is that correct Or approximately one hour?
A Yes. Defonse Counsel as much as I know had to leave the prison at seven o'clock; I can not remember the time precisely, but it was a very short time.
Q Do you recall who signed your indictment? On behalf of the Ministry of Justice?
A It was Chief Reich Prosecutor Lautz who signed my first, and also my second indictment.
Q Do you recall when your first indictment was dated? That is, the date appearing on the document?
A. I do not remember the date precisely, but I know it was several days before it was handed to me.
Q Can you tell us generally, and very briefly, what you were charged with in this indictment?
A. I can not tell you the paragraphs, but the text was high treason, treason and undermining of defensive spirit.
Q How many of the others arrested as a result of this tea party wore tried with you in the first trial?
A. There were three who were with me in the main charge; Miss von Tadden, Mr. Otto Kieb and myself, and in the subsidiary indictment there were Mr. Scherpenberg, Mr. Kurowski, and Miss Zarden.
Q Do you recall before what senate of the People's Court your trial was hold?
A It was the first senate, and the presiding judge was Freisler,
Q Will you describe briefly the manner in which Freisler conducted the trial?
A. I believe since others who were present, as I was told, have seen the film, which was made about these convicted after the 20th of July, and
Q Mrs. Solf, just tell us what you, yourself, observed in the trial, in the First Senate of the People's Court held on 1 July, 1944.
A The presiding judge Freisler first examined Miss von Tadden and in very severe words attacked her attitude.
No had very little time in that manner to answer at all. It began in the morning at nine o'clock and ran until ten o'olock in the evening. After the noon recess, when we get three pieces of dried broad, witnesses were brought in; there were two quite unimportant witnesses who had been arrested at the same time we were arrested, and then the main witness, Dr. Reckzeh, was brought in; and Dr. Reckzeh charged me with having given him the orders, or requested him to get in touch in Switzerland with neutrals and immigrants in order to prepare peace negotiations with the western powers.
Q One moment, this doctor which you have referred to new, is ho the same individual you met at Miss Tadden's tea party and to whom you handed the three letters for delivery to Switzerland, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Continue, please.
A Presiding Judge Freisler asked me about my ideology and the ideology of my husband, and when I told him about the ideology of my husband, that during his entire life he had been a great humanist that he had served his entire life, he had served his country; and apart from that he always tried to help all non, he shouted: then he was a liberal, which I confirmed. Then he reproached me that I had spoken well of the Quakers, who under the guise of brotherly love acted politically, and as a woman of distinction I should know that. When he accused me that I had tried to make Dr. Rechzeh my agent, I could only answer that he emphasized ny international contacts and, therefore, it wouldn't be necessary for me to give that order to a man whom I didn't know at all, that is Dr. Rechzeh.
MR. KING: Your honors, I wonder if at this time we night recess for a short time. The witness is a woman not as young as she used to be, and she has been under a great physical strain coming from London to appear here. I do not wish to overtax her strength, and I think it would be better from her point of view if we could at this time recess, until waiting until the usual time of three o'clock.
THE PRESIDENT: What length of time do you suggest?
MR. KING: I suggest a normal recess period. I anticipate at this point we are approximately half way through, a little more, of the direct examination, and following the direct examination, it might be well to take another short recess prior to the commencement of cross examination.
THE PRESIDENT: We will now recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: All persons in the Court will find seats.
The Tribunal is again in session.
BY MR. KING:
Q You have already told us that Dr. Reckzeh appeared as a witness for the prosecution in your trial. Were there other witnesses as well for the prosecution?
A There were three ladies, Mrs. Braune, Miss von Tadden, and Mrs. Ruehle, a friend of Mrs. Braune. They had been arrested, but had been discharged after two months, and did say things that counted against me to some point.
Q Did your defense counsel, Dr. Dix, have an opportunity to examine either Dr. Reckzeh or the other three witnesses?
A I do not know about that.
Q You have already told us that you were permitted to make a statement to the court, and on the basis of the statement, Freisler replied. The net result of Freisler's reply to your question, an explanation of it was that your trial was postponed; is that correct?
AAt the end of the trial towards the evening, it must have been about nine, Freisler said to me, "Defendant Solf you can leave the courtroom. You are under a heavy charge; that I need further investigations made. I have heard you were a friend of a man and you had discussion with him -- a man who already had been in conflict with the Peoples Court." At that moment I did not know who he meant. Besides, he said to me, "I hear that you kept a political drawingroom" to which I replied, "I do not know what you mean by political drawing room. That my husband's world-wide reputation and his contact all over the world -- that my husband's political diplomats and scientists of all kinds called on us."
Q Can you tell us what sentences the others who were tried with you on 1 July 1944 received?
A Yes. I was in the room next to the Courtroom and I was able to hear as Miss von Tadden and Mr. Otto Kiep were sentenced to death. Mr. Scherpenberg was sentenced to two years imprisonment counting the time spent in prison prior to his trial. Miss Kurowski and Miss Zarden were acquitted.
Q Do you know until this very moment that Scherpenberg was a son-in-law of Dr. Hjalmar Schact?
A Yes, I knew that.
Q Where were you taken after the first -- after the trial ended?
A The same evening together with Miss von Tadden, who had been sentenced to death, I was moved back to the Moabit Prison and about a week later the Gestapo officials took me away from Moabit and carried me back to Ravensbrueck where my daughter was there and also my friend Count Bernsdorf and Kuntze and several others.
Q Were living conditions for you personally at Ravensbrueck the second time you were there any better or as good or worse than they were when you were first incarcerated there?
A No, they were worse. While at first we were treated comparatively well except at the interrogations, conditions worsened and particularly after the 20th of July they became almost unbearable.
Geheimrat Kuntz and I were put into the cell in the cellar where we slept. Sometime later my daughter was moved there too. I, myself, for about five days after the 20th of July was moved from Moabit and was moved to the Cottbus Penitentiary.
Q This Ravensbrueck of which we have been speaking is the same concentration camp, is it not, that later became known to the world as an extermination center?
A Yes.
Q And when you speak of the 20th of July to what particular event in the recent history of Germany do you refer?
A On 20 July the attempt by Count Stauffenberg on Hitler's life in his headquarters took place.
Q You have already indicated that from Ravensbrueck you were again returned to Cottbus -- Moabit. This was in preparation for the second trial; is that correct?
A Yes. Naturally after the attempt of 20 July there were cases -- concerning cases involving the 20 July attempt and consequently I had to wait.
Q When was the second trial originally scheduled to be held?
AAt the end of November 1944 I received my second indictment in which I was the chief defendant and it stated -- a five other persons. The five other persons were my nearest friends and collaborators. They were Geheimrat Kuntze Count Albrecht Bernsdorf, my own daughter Countess Erksleben and in the secondary indictment Dr. von Hagen.
Q And you say the indictment was delivered to you at the end of November. When was it scheduled to be held?
A The trial was scheduled for the 14 December.
Q Fourteenth of what month, please.
A The 14 December.
Q The 14 December. Now, I take it that the second trial was postponed?
A The second trial was postponed shortly before hand and we were told because Presiding Judge Freisler had to conduct trials at Nurnberg.
Q And by the time the second trial was again scheduled what had occurred to Judge Freisler in the meantime?
A The next trial took place -- had been scheduled for 18 January but again was postponed shortly before hand. The final date was fixed for the 8 February but was again postponed because on 3 February in an Allied attack by the American and British Air forces the Special Court in _______________ strasse was destroyed and Presiding Judge Freisler as far as I know, with his collaborators, were buried under the ruins.
Q Following perhaps the untimely demise of Freisler what was the next scheduled date of your trial?
A The next date was the 28 April.
Q And before the 29 April what occurred to interrupt that?
A The seige of Berlin progressed so fast that the justice authorities began to evacuate prisoners from the prison. If I remember correctly, from February onward -- I must interpolate here -that since October 1944 my daughter, too had been sent from Ravensbrueck to the Moabit Prison. At first the criminal cases were discharged from Moabit then the light political cases and every day large transports left. At the beginning of April only about 40 to 50 prisoners were left. I had made inquiries several times of the prison as to whether we too could not be discharged but there were strict orders that we were to be kept. There were attacks by day and night, not only air-raids but also artillery. During all of that we were located on the second floor of the prison where with the officials and some criminal prisoners went to the cellar. There was no heating all winter. There was so little food that we all had become very weak.
Then, approximately on the 22nd of April, I made another attempt to get us discharged, but again I was met with a refusal.
Late in the afternoon, on the 23rd, my cell was unlocked. The head wardress of the prison entered and said "Get ready quickly, you will be discharged." In all hurry, everything was collected together; formalities were settled. I saw my daughter for the first time in sixteen months, I could talk to her. A fellow prisoner, who had also been discharged -- her name is Frau Elsass; her husband had been murdered a few months previously--told as that we could drive off with her, as Berlin was surrounded by fighting. We did not know where to go, we had no home, we had no money, we had no food, and we had no clothes but those that we had worn for eighteen months. We succeeded in getting into the car, and only then we were told by the man who was driving the car that it was he who, by a courageous coup de main, had rescued us. He was Dr. Heuss, who knew the Elsass family and us, and who had been very anxious all the time lest perhaps at the last moment we, as one used to say in Nazi terminology, might be exterminated.
Q. Mrs. Solf, may I interrupt you here? Can you tell us from your own personal knowledge of the fate of some of the people you have mentioned thus far in your direct examination?
A. Yes. Geheimrat Richard Kuntze, and Count Bernsdorf, who were both co-defendants of mine at my second trial, were also in Berlin, since October, at the prison in Lehrter Strasse, which was under the Administration of Justice, but where two Gestapo officials had the supervision.
Neither of them had been sentenced yet, and both men, during the night in which we were rescued, around the Lehrter Station, were shot dead by SS detachments, and with them a number of other persons whom I knew, among them a friend whose name was Staehle, who had been sentenced to two years' imprisonment, and who was liquidated all the same.
There were various flying squads who had come down to the cellars where these men were housed. Some of these flying squads numbered three, some seven, and some eight, and all the people whom the SS detachments found were shot dead on that night.
Q. Mrs. Solf, one final question. On the 20th of April, 1945, which was the anniversary of Hitler's birthday, you were in Cottbus Prison. What, if anything, did you hear about mass executions of political prisoners held as prisoners in Brandenburg prison?
A. May I correct you? I was not in Cottbus, but in Moabit on the 20th of April. You said "Cottbus" just now. On the 20th of April 1945 I was in Moabit. Afterwards I heard from friends, who at that time were in the Brandenburg penitentiary, that on the 20th of April-
Q. (Interposing) One moment, please. Can you give us the names of those friends at this time who were in Brandenburg, from whom you heard the story which you are about to relate?
A. The name of the man who told me that in Berlin a few weeks later? His name is Hohlanberg. I don't know him well, but yesterday I had an opportunity here in this building to speak to a man who had the same information.
On the 20th of April a public prosecutor of a Reich prosecutor, I can't say for certain, was sent to Brandenburg by car, because trains no longer ran, and there, among other things, concerning a friend of ours, a Mr. von Mund, who had been sentenced to death a year previously but who, after very severe torture, did make statements against me at my trial -- I was told that apart from him, thirty other persons were murdered there.
I cannot say for certain whether they were shot dead or whether they were hanged, but at any rate they were murdered on the 20th of April.
Q. Do you have any information from these sources as to who may have ordered the executions, the murders, to take place?
A. I assume that the Gestapo, who was in charge of political prisoners, gave the order and handed to the Ministry of Justice the lists of the people concerned, but I cannot say so for certain; it is only an assumption on my part.
Q. Do you know of any Ministry of Justice official who went to Brandenburg to order the execution?
A. No.
Q. I wish to retrace my steps briefly for the final question. You have said previously that you now know that the concentration camp Ravensbrueck was used as an extermination center during the period while you and your daughter were held there. Can you tell us, from your own personal knowledge, of any evidences of such extermination which went on while you were there and which you as a prisoner were able to observe?
A. I was not able personally to see the cremations, but only because the chimney of the incinerator was immediately outside our windows.
Q. When you speak of the incinerator, do you refer to the crematorium?
A. Yes; the chimney of that crematorium ran up the wall of our cells. Naturally, like all of us who were there and who can all testify to it, we observed that during the later months of our stay there, that chimney chimney was hardly ever without smoke.