Q How old was your mother when she died?
A She was 55 years old.
Q After your mother died, Mr. Klees, did your father marry the second time?
A Yes, he did. In 1941, he married again. He was married for four months and then he too died.
Q Was this second marriage of your father's a happy one, so far as you observed?
A No.
Q What was the reason why it wasn't happy, do you know?
A He married for the second time, and she spent all of his money. Then my father again had to take up his job at the railroad and he went there, and when he came home in the evening she had run away and had taken away all his money, and so he hanged himself.
Q Mr. Klees, how much schooling have you had?
A I only went to grade school -- public school.
Q How many years did you attend school?
A Eight years.
Q Eight years. After you left the eight year of school, what did you do?
A Then I went to a Jewish cattle dealer.
Q Between the years of 1933 and 1945, to what political party, if any, did you belong?
A I did not belong to any party from 1933 until 1945. Before 1933 I was in the Reichsbanner, in the Socialist Party of Germany--the SPD.
Q What political connections, if any, with regard to political parties did your father and your brother have? The same as yours or not?
A They were all in the Reichsbanner, the SPD -- the Socialist Party of Germany.
Q Can you explain, Mr. Klees, what this Reichsbanner is -or was.
A The Reichsbanner was a formation organized by the SPD; it was a security organization of the government. Severing had issued a regulation establishing a so-called Reichsbanner, and this organization worked alongside the security Police (Schutzpolizei).
Q Mr. Klees, was this Reichsbanner a Nazi organization?
A No, SPD - Socialist Party of Germany.
Q At any time after 1933 were you or your father or your brothers, ever members of the Nazi Party?
A No.
Q About how many people lived in this town of Dietz, where you say your residence was.
A Four thousand.
Q Mr. Klees, do you remember anything unusual that happened to you or your family in 1932, before the Nazi party came to power; and by "anything unusual", I mean anything of a violent nature?
A In 1932, before the Nazi government seized power, the SAentered our house during the night; they broke the windows and doors, and they made an attack on my father and one brother, who is in Russia, and me. And we beat them before they left -- in front of our house and in our house; they sustained injuries on the head, and during the night they were taken away in a car and turned over to the police.
Q Mr. Klees, you say that in 1942, at night, some SA men broke into your house -
THE PRESIDENT: Wasn't that in 1932? You said 1942 just now.
MR. WOOLEYHAN: I believe it was in 1932 that the witness said this happened.
THE PRESIDENT: You said 1942.
MR. WOOLEYHAN: I am sorry.
Q During this night in 1932 that you have described when the SA men broke into your house, did these SA men call you or your father, or any of your brothers, any epithets or names that you heard?
A Yes, they called my father a "red crook" and "red trash" and they said: "Where are they; let's kick them out."
Q You say that your family resisted these SA men who had broken into your house by force?
A Yes.
Q Did you or your father turn these SA men over to the Police?
A Yes, and to the constabulary -- to one trooper of the constabulary; they were altogether put into a car and brought to the police, and we went with them.
Q After you turned these SA men over to the police, did the police make any investigation of the matter?
A Not very much; they said that we would be informed, and afterward we heard rumors that they had been given a fine of forty marks, but nothing was done about it.
Q Did any particular police official that you remember make the investigation of the matter?
A No.
Q Mr. Klees, I believe you said that after you left school you went to work for a cattle dealer.
A Yes.
Q Was your employer Jewish?
A Yes, he was.
Q While you were working for him, was he ever mistreated that you know of?
A Yes. He was called for during the night and he was beaten up too; I was living there; and they also took me along during the night, and on along way they chased me back. It was the SS who took this man -- my boss, the Jew -- and they beat him up so badly that you couldn't recognize him any more.
In 1937 the Jew went to America. But he had been so mistreated -- they had beaten him up so much, to such an extent that he was unrecognizable; it was terrible to look at him.
Q Mr. Klees, during this night that you have just described, in which the SS beat up, as you say, your employer, were you involved in the affair in any way?
A Yes.
Q Could you describe, Mr. Klees, how you were involved during this night that you have described?
A I was living there with my boss, and when they called for him during the night and said he would have to be taken along and put into protective custody, I, of course, went downstairs and looked into the matter, and when things were ready they said I would have to go along too to the city hall at Freiendiez. One of the policemen went and took him over a bridge -- across a bridge -- and I went along on my bicycle; and shortly after we had crossed the bridge three SS men came with sticks -- with the handles of spades -- and then they mistreated him.
Q You say that you followed along on a bicycle that night, Mr. Klees?
A Yes.
Q Did at any time did these SS men mistreat you or call you any names?
A Yes.
Q What did they do or say?
A First they said: You dirty servant of a Jew; hurry up and get away from here, otherwise you will get it; but I did not obey their order, and in spite of that, I followed them on the bicycle, and so they took me and also beat me up and then I ran away.
Q Mr. Klees, did this occurrence happen in the same town of Diez in which -
A Yes.
Q You described the breaking into of your house by the SA men sometime before that? They both happened in the same town; is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q Mr. Klees, did you ever apply for a driver's license?
A Yes.
Q When was that?
A In 1934 I made application to receive a driver's license, and the Jew paid for it, and after I finished drivers' school at Limburg, a drivers' school's name was Moebus, they later told me that I would also have to have a report on my behavior.
Q One moment, excuse me. Then you applied for your drivers license, did you do that in this same town of Diez?
A Yes.
Q Did you -- or rather to what official did you have to go to, to apply for this driver's license?
A To a police official named Richter.
Q Had you had any dealings with this official Richter before? Had you ever seen him before?
A Yes, when we were marching in the Reichsbanner organization and had our parades, and later when our organization was dissolved and we did not care about it any more, he was still in office as police official.
Q Did this police official, to whom you had to apply for the driver's license, did he have anything to do with the investigation? -
A Yes.
Q Of the breaking into your house by the SA men sometime previously?
A Yes, he knew about that too. He had taken down the record of this case and later on when I made application for my driver's license and wanted to find out what was going on there, he told me that I did not have the right to receive a driver's license.
Q. You said that this police official refused you your drivers license; is that correct?
A. Yes, he refused it; and as a reason for the refusal, he gave that I was a danger to the public. Thereupon I said they were all a bunch of rascals.
Q. In addition to refusing your drivers license, and telling you that you were a danger to the community, did the police official tell you to do anything else?
A. He told me that first of all I would have to go to the Kreisphysician in Limburg. I went there and they asked me -- they told me that they would have to examine me because of my drivers license.
Q. When this district physician or medical officer, examined you, of what did that examination consist?
A. Everything, a physical examination, my health, and they asked me about drafts and checks. And, when we were almost finished, he said that in ten days they would let me know about the outcome, and whether I had ever heard anything about sterilization.
Q. Mr. Klees, during this physical examination that you have just described, did the examining physician ask any questions of a political nature?
A. Yes, he asked me whether I belonged to the Hitler Youth or the SA, and if I was active in either of these organizations. I answered, no.
Q. Did the examining physician have anything to say about the fact that you worked for a Jewish employer?
A. I only said that I worked for a Jewish cattle dealer and therefore I could not be in the Hitler Youth -- I was not in the Hitler Youth or the SA. We had all been in the Reichsbanner-SPD, the Socialist Party, and I was not interested in this business.
Q. After this physical examination that you have just described, were you summoned before any court?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you please describe what court it was, and where?
A. In Limburg, at the Landgericht, the district court. I was summoned together with my father. The presiding judge there was a Dr. Dannhausen, Roesgen, Boesch, and Herr Roesgen.
Q. Mr. Klees, when you were summoned before this district court in Limburg, what happened at your hearing; can you describe what happened the day you were before the court?
A. I entered the courtroom; there, the presiding judge asked me -his name was Dr. Dannhausen -- he asked me about my intelligence test, about drafts and checks, and asked where I was working, and where I had gone -- traveled, and where I had traveled for the purpose of buying cattle. And, then he told me I could sit down.
Q. What was the result of your hearing before this court?
A. The decision was that Dr. Dannhausen in Limburg, who today is the Landrat of Limburg, district counselor, said that the court session was invalid, because it was out of the question to have a person like that sterilized.
Q. Then, are we to understand that your hearing before this court resulted in your not being sterilized? The court refused to order your sterilization; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You have stated, Mr. Klees, that this court was the district court there in Limburg, the Landgericht?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it so far as you know or could see, was the district court itself or was it some other kind of court held at that place?
A. No, it was the district court of Limburg.
Q. What year was that?
A. That was in October 1934, September or October -- I cannot remember the exact day anymore.
MR. WOOLEYHAN: May it please the Court, I refer now to page 48 of the English document book 8-B* which is part of document NG 832.
I now -
JUDGE BRAND: (Interposing) Is that in evidence?
MR. WOOLEYHAN: No, Your Honor, that is not in evidence.
I show now to the witness a piece of paper and ask him to describe it.
(The paper was delivered to the witness.)
Q. Mr. Klees, do you recognize that piece of paper you now hold?
A. Yes, that is the decision at Limburg of Dr. Dannhausen, Grosskind, Roesgen, and the district physician, Dr. Boesch. It is the decision where it was refused.
Q. Is that the decision of the court refusing your sterilization that you have just described?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you please read the first paragraph?
A. "In the eugenics case against the unmarried worker Rudolf Klees, born on 20 May 1914, at Limburg, resident in Kiez Schlaeferweg 7, the Eugenics Court at Limburg (Lahn) in session on 21 June 1934, and composed of the Judge at District and Local Court (Landund Amtsgerichtsrat) Dannhausen, as president, the County Doctor (Kreisarz't)--"
Q. (Interposing) Mr. Klees, that will be sufficient. I only want to make sure that was the same document as the one before the Tribunal. Thank you.
A. Yes.
Q. Now, Mr. Klees, after the court in Limburg refused to order your sterilization by the opinion which you have just identified; after that happened, did you appear before any other court on this same matter?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you describe how that came about and where you went to appear before the second court?
A. Four weeks later, I got a letter in which the County Physician, the Kreisarzt, made an appeal against this judgment, and gave me a summons to the district court of appeals in Frankfurt on the Main.
When I arrived there I was asked about my personal history, my name and so forth, and one of the gentleman asked me the following question: When was Adolf Hitler born? I answered to that question, I do not know that, and I had never been interested in it either. The other gentleman put the question to me; and he requested me, when was Dr. Goebbels born? Thereupon I answered in the same way, I did not know. And the third gentleman asked me when was Herman Goering born. Thereupon I answered I had never been interested in this. Thereupon they said that in about ten days I would be informed and in about ten days, and after about ten days the opinion about the sterilization was passed.
Q. Mr. Klees, at this hearing, this trial you have just described, in which they asked you the three questions about the birthdays of Hitler, Goebbels and Goering, did the court ask you any other questions? Did they examine you any more?
A. He asked that the (Der Apfel Faellt Nicht Veit vom Stamm) children are very close to their parents in the hereditary characteristics. -- I laughed at that heartily.
Q. How long, Mr, Klees, how long did the trial last?
A. About not quite fifteen minutes...until my turn came until all the gentlemen had gathered...all of it was finished within fifteen minutes.
Q. And after the trial I believe you said that your sterilization order was issued by that court some ten days later, is that correct?
A. Yes.
MR. WOOLEYHAN: May it please the Court, I now show the witness another document, and I invite the Tribunal's attention to page 49 of Document Book 8-B.
Q. Mr. Klees, have you ever seen that piece of paper before?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you please describe to the Court was it is?
A. That is the opinion regarding the sterilization that was passed by the District Court of Appeals at Frankfurt.
Q. Mr. Klees... (pause) I am sorry, your Honors, I Can't seen to hear at the moment... Mr. Klees, you state that the piece of paper you now hold is the order of the Court of appeals in Frankfurt ordering your sterilization, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you please read the first part of that document, please just to identify it?
A. "In the case concerning sterilization of the worker Rudolf Klees of Diez, born 20 May 1914 in Limburg-on-the-Lahn--"
Q. Some more, please.
A. "The Higher Eugenics Court with the Court of Appeals at Frankfurt-on-the-Main has, in consequence of the complaint of the county docotr, for the counties Limburg and Unterlahn, contrary to the findings of the Eugenics Court with the Lower Court in Limburg-on-theLahn of 21 June 1934, in a session of the 10th of September 1934 in which participated President of the Senate (Senatspraesident) Dr. Fuehr, Professor Dr. med. Fuenfgeld, Director Dr. med Hinsen, they decided as follows: The worker Rudolf Klees, resident Diez-on-the-Lahn, Schlaeferweg 7, born 20 May 1914 at Limburg-on-the-Lahn, son of the retired railway employee Wilhelm Klees, and of Philippine Klees, nee Koehn, is to be sterilized."
Q. That's enough, Mr. Klees. Thank you. That's all right. Now, Mr. Klees, after this decision of the court was reached in this second trial that you have just described, did you ever see this piece of paper before?
I refer now, may it please the court, to page 50 of the same Document Book.
A. Yes, I have seen it.
Q. What is that, Mr. Klees; what is that piece of paper?
A. This is the forced sterilization. This went from Frankfurt to the county doctor, Dr. Lapp, and from Dr. Lapp it passed to the police authorities for Diez.
Q. What is the date on that... the date.. in the upper right hand corner?
A. On the 25th of September 1934.
Q. And by whom is it signed?
A. Dr. Lapp, Medizinalrat.
Q. Now, Mr. Klees, would you please read the last paragraph of that letter.
A. "You are therefore requested to present yourself within two weeks at one of the hospitals mentioned below, submitting this letter for sterilization.
In order to be sterilized, if you do not be take yourself voluntarily to a hospital you will be brought there by force."
Q. Thank you, Mr. Klees; that's all.
Now, Mr. Klees, after you received that letter from Dr. Lapp, which stated, as you have read, that if you do not report to a hospital voluntarily for sterilization you would be brought there by force... after you had received and read that letter, what did you do?
A. Thereupon, first of all I ran away. This Jewish cattle dealer, to the daughter of that man with whom I was working... I went to Kerr Stein, that was near Aschaffenburg. There I remained for some time, and thought that I would let the matter rest for a while, and after that I could return again. When, then, I came home after that period, the police immediately grabbed me and by force took me to the hospital in Bad Emns that was run by the Protestant Sisters.
Q. Now, Mr. Klees, when the police found you and took you forcibly to the hospital at Bad Ems, what happened to you there, at the hospital?
A. This physician who was supposed to sterilize me said immediately that it was a shame, a disgrace, but that he himself could not change anything in the matter.
Q. Were you, in fact, sterilized there at the hospital at Bad Ems?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, Mr. Klees, do you recognize this piece of paper?
MR. WOOLEYHAN: If it please the Court, I am referring now to page 52 of Document Book 8-B.
(To the witness) Do you recognize that piece of paper, Mr. Klees?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you please describe it?
A. This is the certificate of my behavior from 1915 until 1937 when I was living in Diez, and it is signed by a Commissar of the police authority.
Q. Would you please read the main paragraph beginning, "It is officially certified."
A. To Rudolf Klees, born on 20 May 1914, at Limburg, County Limburg. It is officially certified that he was registered here during the period from 1915 to 21 May 1937, and from 12 December 1937 until today, and that he has no conviction entered on the police records."
Q. What is the date of that letter, in the upper right hand corner?
A. 21 January 1941.
Q. Thank you, Mr. Klees.
Mr. Klees, after you were forcibly sterilized at Bad Ems, as you have described, can you describe briefly what work you have done since that time?
A. After I was sterilized I went back to the cattle dealer and still worked for him until 1937, until the time when the cattle dealer in 1937 emigrated to America. After that I had to go to the Labor Service for the Reichs Autobahn, and in 1935 the age group of 1914 was drafted for a two year period of service.
Q. Mr. Klees, when your age group was called up for the Army draft were you given a physical examination?
A. Yes, by five physicians in the Army, staff physicians.
Q. Now, after these five Army staff physicians examined you, in 19--- What year was it?
A. July 1935.
Q. After these Army physicians examined you, into what Army classification were you put?
A. 1-A-- for all kinds of service.
MR. WOOLEYHAN: May it please the Court, the Prosecution offers in evidence as Exhibit 442, the following pages of document 832: Pages 48, 49, 50 and 52, of the English document book VIII-B. These four pages have just been identified from the stand.
The Prosecution has no further direct examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Does defense counsel desire to cross-examine this witness?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY DR. KUBUSCHOK:
Q. At the end, you were speaking about your physical examination for the Army, or your call-up for the Army, and you declared that you were considered fit for military service.
A. Yes.
Q. Were you then drafted?
A. No; I resisted against it.
Q. What did you point out in order not to be drafted?
A. During this call-up examination, before these gentlemen who considered me fit for all military service, I asked that my school friends should leave the room. I then unburdened my heart, and I told what had happened to me. The physicians told me that that was a terribly mean thing, and I was supposed to appeal and put in a formal complaint.
Q. Against what were you supposed to put in a complaint or an appeal?
A. Because it was an injustice that was done to me, and they could not declare me unfit for military duty because I was healthy and fit for everything.
I did this, and it was handed on to Berlin, to the Ministry. I received an answer back from Goebbels, in a letter which I do not have in my possession anymore. Mistakes had been committed, and their predecessors had also committed errors, but there was only one thing to be done, to put me out of any service because I was no longer fit for war service. And that is what happened.
My comrades who were in Diez -- one who was also actually sterilized was in the Volkssturm in the end, in the People's Resistance. He was drafted into that, and he was also drafted into Marsch Kompany Zwei. ****** They wanted to try that with me too, but I refused all of that. When the time came, the final result was that 28 of us were on a list of people who would be brought to a place where many others disappeared.
Q. I did not quite understand you. You stated that the staff physicians had said that it was a mean thing and that you should put in a complaint. Against what should you register a complaint? Against the opinion of the District Court of Appeals in Frankfurt, the Eugenics Court, or against the decision of the staff physicians that you were fit for military duty?
A. Once against the District Court of Appeals, and also against the fact that they had considered me fit for military duty. That would have to be corrected by higher authorities, because they could not change it. That is, once by Frankfurt, that it was a meanness that I had become sterilized; and, on the other hand, I was healthy outside of that.
Q. After that advice, what kind of complaints did you register, and to whom? First, against the decision in Frankfurt, and secondly, against the decision of the physicians?
A. Yes. From the neighborhood I called upon somebody who had even had an old fighter number in the Party from 1928. Personally one would not have been able to get through to the authorities. He said that such a thing had never happened, in the whole world, but he would like to help me, that it would go to the proper authorities. Thereupon I did that, and in 1935, during the summer, I went to Berlin to the Funk Radio Exhibition. I wanted to try to appear in person, but I was told that I would not be admitted.
Later on, when I had returned home, there was this decision, according to my application, in which they told me that a mistake had been committed and could just not be rectified any longer. There was only one thing, they could free me of every kind of service.
I later received a certificate from the Draft Board that I was unfit for every kind of military service.
Q. You still did not answer my question that I put to you before. To whom did you send these two complaints?
A. To Goebbels.
Q. To Goebbels? Why did you believe that Goebbels was the competent man for this?
A. Well, he was the Reich Propaganda Minister for everything, and this old SA-man who lived in my neighborhood told me that it had to be sent to the Ministry, to Dr. Josef Goebbels, and then the matter would be cleared up. That is how it came about.
Q. What is the name of this old SA-man who gave you this advice?
A. He is no longer in Diez; I don't remember his name any more. He moved to Diez. He had a Party number from 1928. Now I remember the name, Becke.
Q. And where did he go from Diez?
A. No, he had moved to Diez, and he was working at a local sickness insurance office.
Q. Who sent you the decision that a mistake had been made and that now you would not have to serve any more?
A. From Dr. Josef Goebbles, from the Reich Ministry.
Q. The Reich Propaganda Ministry?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you still have this letter from Goebbels?
A. No, I don't have it any more. When I received it I handed it over. When they returned it, that I was healthy on the one hand and not healthy on the other hand, that I was well on one hand, and not well on the other hand, I burned the whole thing.
Q. The other papers which you received from Frankfurt, and the decision from Limburg, did you burn those too?
A. No, those I saved.
Q. Would you not have reason in the same way to burn the decision from Frankfurt, which you considered as unjust, as the decision from Goebbels which, after all, said that you were right?
A. As regards the burning, because I was already a member of the Socialist Party and because they lied to me, that is why I destroyed it.
Q. Now, you got this decision from Goebbels. What did you do after that so that you would not be drafted?
A. The Wehrbezirkskommando, the local Draft Board, sent me a letter and I submitted Goebbel's letter to them. I guess they reported that to Berlin too. I then received a yellow certificate, "Unfit for all military service, and not to be used for German military service in the German Army."
Q. Thus, this letter which you received from Goebbels you submitted to this staff physician authority?
A. Yes, the office, yes, in 1935, at the moment when I was not drafted.
Q. And did you not keep this letter with you because it was the basis for your continuing to work?
A. I did not think that was necessary.
Q. No. You come to this Draft Board, Aushebungsbehoerde; you take with you the letter from Goebbels. That was the very thing on which you were basing your objection to their action. Now, if things were going normally, the Draft Board should have to keep this letter in order to continue to clarify matters.
A. They knew it themselves from the very first day that this was how it was: On the one hand I was told that I was dead, and on the other hand that I was alive.
Q. Yes, correct. You said that the Draft Board physicians were at that time of the opinion that the decision in Frankfurt was unjust. In spite of that you were classified 1-A, fit.
A. Yes.
Q. And that is how it remained. Now you come and register complaints, and you now submit to them the letter from Goebbels, which is in your favor.
I am asking you, did the Draft Board not keep this letter from Goebbels?
A. No.
Q. What did the local Draft Board say?
A. The man himself was also from Diez, and he was a noncom. He said to me, as a personal remark, "Rudolf, it is clear that this is what happened to you; we know it already from Berlin." Later on an order had been issued that those who had been sterilized were afterwards not to be drafted.
Q. Thus with the letter from Goebbels you went to a non-com who you knew?
A. Yes, to the Draft Board.
Q. Do you know that a non-com on the Wehrmeldeamt, on the Draft Board, could not change a decision of five staff physicians that you were fit?
A. Even Major Mueller, who was also iron Diez, who hasn't returned even to this day, also confirmed that to me.
Q. That you could do this against the staff physicians?
A. That I could not make any objection to this matter until a decision was made from Berlin, or was handed down from Berlin, and then I would be told what would happen to me.
Q. Witness, one thing is not clear to me yet. You were declared fit. You then received this letter from Goebbels. Now, you go to the Wehrmeldeamt, to a non-com, and you show him this letter. Now, this non-com must, somehow, go to the physicians, and for that purpose he needs this letter, does he not? What did the non-com actually do when you told him that?
DR. WOOLEYHAN: Your Honor, I object to that question on the ground that counsel has not laid a foundation whereby the witness could answer it.
THE PRESIDENT: This matter has been fully covered. You have all the information that this witness can possibly give you, and therefore the objection will be sustained. We will now take a recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. KUBOSCHOK: First, I consider it my duty to point out to the Tribunal one fact which is really of importance but cannot be helped technically. The witness speaks, and that is quite easily recognizable for every German, in a quite confused manner. That, of course, cannot came out clearly in the English translation, since the translator has to try to translate it in a correct sentence. I just want to point this out, I cannot help it.
MR. WOOLEYHAN: I object to this entire remark. If the witness speaks in a confused manner, surely we must strike that from the record, as far as counsel has spoken. If it cannot show on examination, then it cannot be established.
THE PRESIDENT: It is unfair to the witness to make the statement that is just now made by counsel. It is argumentive and has nothing to do with the cross examination. The remark will be stricken from the record.
BY DR. KUBOSCHOK:
Q. One last question, witness, concerning the separation from service. Did I understand you correctly, witness, that in the end you were not drafted because a decree of a general nature had come down from a central office according to which sterilized persons should not be drafted?
A. Yes, but there was no state of war at that time. That was only for those who were to be drafted for two years. Later when the war started, they took everything, regardless of whether they were fit or unfit. Even those who were sterilized, they crafted them and took them along into the front lines. As an example that could be found more than three or four times in Diez.
Q. Witness, you were asked about the disease of your mother. You answered your mother had come into the menopause, had been ill for a year and a half, and died at the age of 55. Couldn't you describe in more detail the illness of your mother?