A. Saturday.
Q. Saturday. And since you have been here have you had an opportunity to adequately compare the mimeograph sheets in Document Book 1 and the Photostat exhibit with the original which you have in your hand?
A. I have had two days to compare the original with the photostatic exhibit.
Q. Now, the first page of the document book, and the first page of the photostat contained typewritten material in the German language, and the date Berlin, 5 July 1944; and the hand-written signature Kuemmerlein; is that what you find on the original?
A. That is what I find on the original.
Q. On numbered pages two and three of the original and of the photostat, did they comprise the material on page two of the document book, as you recall it?
A. Pages two and three in the original comprise pages two and three of the document book.
Q. The writing on pages two and three of the document book, I believe, is in long-hand; is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. And does pages two and three of the photostat and the document book consist of one page written on both sides in the original document; is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. And at the bottom of that page do you find the signature of Klemm?
A. On the bottom of page three I find the signature of Klemm.
MR. LAFOLLETTE: That is the note displayed at the bottom of page 2 of the document book, your Honor.
Q. In what sort of pencil is that writing?
A. It is in purple colored pencil.
Q. Some people would maybe call it lavender or pink, but it is not blue or black; is that correct.
A. That is right.
Q. Do you find throughout the document, the original document thereafter, writing with that colored pencil which, in your opinion corresponds also in the form of writing to the signature of Klemm, and the "T's" which mark the original pages 2 and 3 that you have?
A. Yes, in my opinion the writing in purple colored pencil throughout the document corresponds to the writing on pages 2 and 3 of the document.
Q. I ask you whether or not you find longhand written "T's", "T" for tod on pages 2 and 3?
A. I do.
Q. Therefore, translated in the document book, pages 2 and 3, is death; is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. In connection with that sentence of imprisonment of death, do you know of any sentence for which the initial "T" for tod could stand for, except other than death?
A. I know of no other word than death for which the initial "T" could stand for.
Q. I wish you would turn to page 15 of the original, which is on page 17 of the document book. Is that where the handwriting begins in black pencil?
A. It is.
Q. In your capacity working with OCC, have you seen the master copy of signatures, which is among the documents in the OCC files in Berlin.
A. I have seen the master copy of signatures.
Q. In your work have you worked with documents and studied the signatures and the handwriting of the people whos handwriting and signatures are shown on that master copy?
A. I have worked with hundreds of documents which contains signatures comparing exactly with those appearing in this signature file.
Q. On Page 15 of the original, do you remember whether that block handwriting appear where it starts, "Report to the Minister on Tuesday 21 December 1940 -- the last letter is off my mimeograph copy -
A. Yes, it is Thursday instead of Tuesday.
Q. Yes, Thursday, December 21 -- what is the year?
A. 1944.
Q. And is the first Case Reichold?
A. The first case is Reichold.
Q. And the handwriting on that page through page 17 of the original, is that in black pencil?
A. That is in black pencil.
THE PRESIDENT: On what page in the document book is that?
MR. LAFOLLETTE: I am coming to that, Your Honor. That would be on the bottom of page 19 of the document book.
Q. Also, do you find handwriting in blue pencil in the original document?
A. I do.
Q. Approximately on what page does that first appear in the original?
A. Page 18 of the original, that is the first page which contains handwriting in blue pencil.
MR. LAFOLLETTE: That would be page 18 of the document book, your Honor -- I mean page 20 of the document book, I beg your pardon.
It is at the top of page 20 of the document book.
Q. Is there handwriting on that page?
A. Yes, there is.
Q. Is it in blue pencil?
A. It is in blue pencil.
Q. In my opinion that is the handwriting of Klemm.
Q. Now, I will ask you from time to time, in the lower right hand corner of certain pages of that original document, if there are other initials, right in the extreme corner?
A. Yes, from time to time, there are other initials in the right hand corner on pages of the document.
Q. Can you give us the names of some of those initials, and possibly the pages of the original?
A. One of the names is Altmeyer, which appears on page 26 of the original.
Q. Are there two handwritten final signatures on that page?
A. No, on page 26 there is only one.
Q. Only one?
A. Only one.
Q. Did you make a notation on what page of the photostat that was?
A. I have not. It is probably on page 24 or 25 of the photostat.
JUDGE BLAIR: Mr. LAFOLLETTE: When the witness gives the original page, the best I can do is give you this information as soon as I find them.
THE PRESIDENT: The instrument just referred to, you say it was page 26 of the original?
MR. LAFOLLETTE: Yes, and that appears on page 30 of the document.
Q. And, is the handwriting -- is the name on that in the handwriting of Mulder?
A. The name Mulder is typed.
Q And is this ale typed: Ministerialdat Atlmeyer?
A Yes Q And, is this written on there:
Five years penitentiary, Collaborator Dernedde?
A Yes.
Q And where does the initials of Altmeyer appear?
A The initials of Altmeyer appears on the lower right hand corner.
THE PRESIDENT: May we inquire then if that signature of Altmyer appears on cur page 30?
MR. LAFOLETTE: It does not, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: I know that it does not, but it should not appear at just about the line which reads, Page 27 cf the original"?
MR. LAFOLETTE: Yes, Your Honor, in the lower right hand corner.
Q And, when you said there was only one name, you misunderstood me, there was only one initial. There are thirteen names on this, are there not?
A Yes; oh, yes.
Q That is where I was confused, there is handwriting after each of them, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q So, it begins with the name Mayer, is that correct?
A Right, it begins with the name Mulder.
Q Yes, and below that is the word, clear?
A Yes.
Q The german word, for the word clear?
A Yes.
Q And No 1 is Mayer is it not?
A Correct Q And the last is Bornell?
A The last is Bornell. It is in handwriting?
Q And, Holwert is in handwriting?
A Yes.
Q The first eleven are typed, is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q Is there a question mark after the names Hulwert and Bernell?
A There is no question mark after Hulwert and Bornoll.
Q Is there anything there?
A There is a dash after both Q Is that true in the photostat?
MR. LAFOLETTE: I do not assume the Defense Counsel can object to the mimeograph sheets as being more favorable than the document.
Q Now, then, in what color pencil is the initials Altmeyer?
A The initials of Altmeyer, in my opinion, were written in ink.
Q Is it written in ink?
A Yes, sir.
Q And the T's, they are written on that page?
A The T's are in purple colored pencil.
Q In purple colored pencil. In your opinion were those T's put on there by Klemm?
A Yes.
Q They correspond with the T's you have seen throughout the document and particularly the first two pages where his signature is written; is that correct?
A. Yes, they correspond throughout the document and with the first two pages.
Q I will ask you to turn to page 87 of the original there which is page 99, your Honor, of the English Document Book and would be page 87 of the German. Now, on page 87 of the original and that would be -- if they are numbered -- 84 of the photostat. Do you have that there, too?
A Yes. 84?
Q Of the photostat, yes.
A Yes, I have that.
Q Do you find T's after the names "Bischop's Sabotage Cases, Ministry Competent Officer Franke" -- do you find T's after those?
A Yes.
Q Written in longhand?
A Written in longhand.
Q I point out, your Honor, that this document book, those D's are just somebody's idea of writing down death. Have you examined this mimeographed document book, Mr. Schaeffer?
A I have.
Q And have you and I checked it indiscriminately from page 99 of the document book on to the end?
A We have.
Q And whether or not we found wherever there's a D in the English Document Book there was a handwritten T on the original document?
A wherever there's a D on the English Document Book there's a T on the original.
Q And that's true with reference to the photostat?
A That's true with reference to the photostat.
Q I ask you to turn to page 20 of the original which would be also page 20 of the German book and that's the same as page 18 of the photostat; is that correct?
A Yes, that's right.
Q Do you find at the top of the page "General Death Sentences" in the original?
THE PRESIDENT: What page of the English are you talking about?
Q I beg your pardon, your Honor. I am on page 23 of that document. Do you find at the top in German "General Death Sentences?"
A Yes.
Q And the signature "Ministerial Councillor Altmeyer?"
A Correct.
Q And the first is doubtful and Altmeyer had a line through it "doubtful?"
A Correct.
Q The second -- the number two name on that list, what do you find on that list?
A I find the name Togni.
Q And is the German equivalent of "suspended decision" written in handwriting?
A Yes. "Decision still suspended."
Q Still suspended. I think I will interpolate that I think the Court will remember we discussed the Togni case yesterday. Now, from your examination of this document; the handwritten T's of the defendant Klemm or what are pages one and two -- the original page; and longhand written page two of the document the signature of the defendant Klemm in his handwriting on that document and your comparison of that signature with the Ministry Document of signatures which you have seen and which have been previously introduced in evidence, are you of the opinion that the writing in the originals of Document NG-414, whether in purple, black or blue pencil other than the signatures which appear in the corner from time to time, are the handwriting of the defendant Klemm?
MR. LA FOLLETTE: The prosecution at this time offers to introduce in evidence as Prosecution Exhibit No. 246, Document NG-414
THE PRESIDENT: It seems to me that for greater accuracy in referring to the document of signatures the record should show that is Exhibit NO. 57.
MR. LA FOLLETTE: Thank you, your Honor. That is the exhibit to which I refer.
THE PRESIDENT: The document will be received in evidence if there is no objection.
DR. SCHILF: Dr. Schilf for the defendants Klemm and Mettgenberg
MR. LA FOLLETTE: Your Honor, I am purely making a suggestion for myself and defense counsel and the rest of us in the room. This courtroom is hard to work in. be have gotten along very splendidly I think but I would like to suggest that in using this microphone the person who has the podium will use the left-hand microphone and the other will use the right-hand microphone. In that way we won't be grabbing microphones from each other. I would also like to offer another explanation which I think I am entitled to offer; that when I stand here at various times with my back to defense counsel I have no intention to offer offense but I want to stand forward as far as I can so their I will not appear to be looking on or eaves-dropping over their papers. I think that also will help our conduct of this trial in this courtroom.
DR. SCHILF: Schilf for the defendants Klemm and Mettgenberg. May it please the Court, I do not wish to object to the submission of this document but I have a request to make and I could imagine that Mr. La Follette can perhaps comply with my request.
The discussion of matters concerning this document would thereby be considerably facilitated. We have to deal with hieroglyphics in this case, on which appears as far as I have seen in part to have been typed but a large part of it was written in handwriting. It seems that the handwriting is that of the defendant Klemm. At any rate, a large part of it. The German Document Book which has been given to us naturally has been typed right through and we have found that very many typing errors appear to have occurred. I wish to emphasize that that is no reproach that the document might be compiled in haste but it is merely due to the fact that the handwriting is very difficult to read and the names in part have been entered in type between the lines which are not very distinct. I am interested concerning my German copy of the Document. I am interested in comparing it with the original handwriting because I have to make a very detailed comparison. We are told that the witness had two days for making the comparison and presumably my client and I will take longer to study and to correct the various places where mistakes have occurred. To be able to do that work I would ask Mr. LaFollette to give me a copy of a photostat. I have another request to make to the Tribunal; the photostat as I could see right new, that does not make the handwritten remarks apparently legible in every case and I would like to start with the original. I would therefore ask that the original could be handed to me -- could be left in my charge for 48 hours so that I cam compare it with the photostat, after I have received it from Mr. LaFollette, the photostat in the short time I have had it, I couldn't examine it in detail. It seems to me that that photostat in many points is not as clear in the way it shows behind writing and it isn't therefore apparent with what the document itself is concerned, the original document. I am prepared to discuss the purely technical points of this matter with Mr. LaFollette and I believe we can come to an amiable solution but it will only be possible if first of all, the document is not yet submitted as evidence today but kept back until we have examined the supplement.
This settlement would make it possible for me to compare the photostat with the original copy.
May I ask you to permit me to put a few questions to the witness? And perhaps Mr. Lafollette will give his views of my suggestion.
THE PRESIDENT: It would seem that the request just made by Dr. Schilf is really addressed to Mr. Lafollette instead of to the Tribunal. You may work that out between yourselves, and the Tribunal will be agreeable to any plan you have.
Now, I did not know that Dr. Schilf was going to make any objection, and I had ruled that it would be admitted. I will now state that admission will be subject to further application on the part of Dr. Schilf if he has any objections to make, or any corrections to make, I should say.
MR. LAFOLLETTE: May Your Honor please, I certainly think that Dr. Schilf should have a photostatic copy of this document. As far as I am concerned, I certainly have no objection to his having access to the original. However--
THE PRESIDENT: As I said a moment ago, you can work that out between yourselves.
MR. LAFOLLETTE: I would just like to say, however, that in a sense the original is -- This is not completely within the control of the prosecution. It was delivered to this man in Berlin out of what may be a general section. If I can possibly arrange to comply, I shall, or perhaps I may ask support for my desire to comply by a subsequent ruling of the Tribunal. I simply want to state my position so that Dr. Schilf will know that if I don't comply, it is not a pure arbitrary decision on my part. That is all I want to say.
I understand now that Dr. Schilf wants to cross-examine this witness.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY DR. SCHILF:
Q. Witness, in my questions I can only keep to the copy which I have before me in the German document book.
First of all, I would like to ask you this. According to the copy before me, a chronological order has not been adhered to all the time. Does that correspond to the original?
A. The first two pages are not in chronological order. Except for the first two pages, the rest is in chronological order.
Q. I would ask you to tell me which page numbers are given in the original for those which are 2 and 3 in my document book.
A. Those are the same pages 2 and 3.
Q. The original has the numbers 2 and 3* although it is not chronological? Then I have to ask you another question. Was the pagination of the whole of this original done - afterwards by your department, or was this pagination given on the original when this exhibit was found?
A. The enumeration had to be done for the purpose of photostating those pages. It is not a part of the original document.
Q. In my copy which I have before me here, as I have already mentioned, there are very many typing errors. During the past two days while you were making comparisons, did you also make a comparison between the original in the German language and the copy in the German language such as we have in the document book room?
A. No, I had no access to the German document book.
Q. May I ask you, according to the original which you have before you, are many lines difficult to read, and are some of them quite illegible?
A. No, that is not exactly true; I can read practically everything on the original.
Q. Do you know the German language?
A. Yes.
Q. By virtue of your knowledge of the German language, you can decipher every annotation in the original here? You did not have any difficulties with any symbol or anything which cannot be recognized at first glance, but you could give a meaning to it all?
A. I have had to study the handwriting, but I was able to decipher every word.
Q. In my copy I have found several figures, and I will give you an example. In the copy there is the figure 1237. That figure does not make any sense. I have asked myself whether this sequence of figures 1237, may perhaps in part represent German letters, so that the phrasing might be 1, 2, g Z. Did you find anything like that, where such comparisons could be made, where it was difficult to see whether those were letters or figures?
A. No.
MR. LAFOLLETTE: Just a minute; perhaps it might help if Dr. Schilf will refer to the page, if he has it, of the original where he found it. I do not know whether it is paged that way in the German book.
DR. SCHILF: At the moment I am, unfortunately, unable to immediately state the page number in the German copy. I am concerned with a number of cases where, in the copy I have before me, there are four figures.
That is why I am asking whether during the analysis of this document, the witness had difficulty in establishing the meaning of these figures or letters, and whether these figures were meant for letters. I shall be able immediately to quote an example. In the German document book it is on page 101. I do not know whether the German document book corresponds to the original in its pagination. Therefore, I quote the heading of page 101 so that every one here can follow and find the page in the translations.
Page 101, "F". It has already been settled, it is page 113 in the English document book, 101 of the original. Under "a" there is the number 1. I can only read out what I have here: "Aigner", a line, and it says "8 3 2".
BY DR. SCHILF:
Q. May I ask you to tell me, witness, what it ways in the original?
A. I disagree. In the original is the figure "8", the letter "J" and the letter "Z", which stands for the German words "Acht Jahre Zuchthaus", meaning "Eight Years Penitentiary".
Q. Witness, may I ask you to tell me exactly what it says there? Does it say "eight years in the penitentiary" written out in letters?
A. No, there are only the figure "82, the letter "J", and the letter "Z".
Q. From that I can tell that the hieroglyphs which I have in front of me here are merely typing errors. Below the name of Aigner it says "Waffer". Well, in my copy it says "8, 3, 2". What does it say there in the original?
A. "8, J, Z".
DR. SCHILF: Thank you.
I have no further questions to put to the witness, Your Honor, I could go on questioning the witness for hours if I do not have the photostatic copy made available to me. In that case, I would like to know whether Mr. Lafollette himself has any objection to letting me have a copy. I only want to know whether it will be technically possible to lot me have a photostatic copy. That is why I am putting the question now. If I cannot have a photostatic copy, I will have to continue my cross-examination.
MR. LAFOLLETTE: If Your Honors please, I was informed the other day by Mr. Fartena that finally a method had been worked out whereby the defense center may send up to the document room and obtain a photostatic copy.
If that has been worked out, that is a matter in the Secretary General's office.
I will also say that as far as document NG-414 is concerned, in the original exhibit -- if this will help the defense center get a copy out of the document room -- I think Dr. Schilf should have a copy, and I will do everything I can to try to get it. I don't blame Dr. Schilf. I had thought before that I could work out some technical matters that I haven't been able to do, but I am relying on what Mr. Wartena said to me, that that can be done, and I will do everything to help Mr. Wartena get it for Dr. Schilf, because he ought to have it.
THE PRESIDENT: No copy has yet been made then, as I understand it?
MR. LaFOLLETIN: If pour Honor please, of course, we have got one here.
THE PRESIDENT: I mean, one copy for him.
MR. LAFOLLETTE: No, that was never provided for, as I understand it, under the rules. I haven't the power to do anything except to go to the document room and get one of these to bring in here in the courtroom, like a little boy. That is all I can do. However, I will certainly try to find out how this machinery works, and do everything I can to get him one.
JUDGE BRAND: Is it possible for Dr. Schilf to examine the photostatic copy which will actually be put in evidence?
MR. LAFOLLETTE: Again, I am advised by Colonel Nesbit that once I give one of these things to him, it goes to the Secretary General's office and, within 48 hours, they have to re-deposit it in the archives. Now, if we withdraw it, it is certainly possible for me to give this copy to Dr. Schilf to have for 48 hours, and I am perfectly willing to do that.
JUDGE BRAND: You mean withdraw it physically, or withdraw it from evidence?
MR. LAFOLLETE: I will withdraw it from evidence, hold it in my hand physically, and give it to him.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
MR. LAFOLLETTE: And now I charge him with guarding that with his life, because if I don't have another copy, I don't know when I will get it into evidence.
DR. SCHILF: Will you forgive me if I put another question, just one single question to the witness, although I have said that I had finished the cross-examination? My question concerns merely the circumstances which arise from the document.
BY DR. SCHILF:
h I want to ask you, witness, on various pages of this document there a.re so-called file numbers. For example, here on page 4 in my copy it says "Wednesday, 24 January 1945, 4, G, 11". Then there is a series of figures, and the stroke "21". I only want to ask you: When you were analyzing the document, did you have an opportunity to see the files of which we see the numbers here? Did you have an opportunity to see the files concerned, or did you read, through the document without referring to the other files mentioned in it?
A. I have not examined other records in connection with this document.
DR. SCHILF: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: Do we understand that it is agreeable to the prosecution to revoke the order admitting this in evidence?
MR. LAFOLLETTE: Yes, I withdraw the offer to introduce it, with that understanding.
Now I think I must say also that unless I can work it out with Berlin, I will not be able to promise that I can comply with the request to examine the original. But certainly, if Mr. Schaeffer should be here for another 24 hours, and if Dr. Schilf finds something in the photostat that is not legible, Mr. Schaeffer and I and Dr. Schilf can get together and he can look at the original page where the photostat is not sufficient. Therefore, we will not offer the document.
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess at this time until 1:30.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours).
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. KING: The Prosecution calls at this time as a witness Mrs. Hanna Self. We ask that she be sworn at this time. She will testify in the German language.
HANNA SOLF, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE BRAND: Will you plea so stand, raise your right hand, and repeat after me the oath:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Moniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withheld and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE BRAND: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. KING:
Q. Will you please give us your name?
A. Lanna Self, nee Dotty.
Q. You are appearing here voluntarily, are you not, to testify to the treatment you received following your arrest and trial before the People's Court?
A. Yes, I appear voluntarily, also in the name of my daughter, and first of all in the name of all my friends who have been murdered and cannot testify here today.
A. You are, are you not, the wife of the late Wilhelm H. Self?
A. I am the widow of Dr. Wilhelm Heinrich Self.
Q. Mrs. Self, even at the risk of reviving memories which may cause you some sadness, will you tell us briefly some of the more outstanding positions which your late Husband held in the German government prior to his retirement?
A. I was married when my husband was Governor of Samoa, where, after Samoa had become a German colony, he had contacts with the Anglo-American world and maintained them for ten years with great success.
Before Samoa became a German Colony he was president of the municipality and as such under oath not only to the German Emperor, but also to Queen Victoria of England and President McKinley. After he left Samoa, having been Governor, he became Under Secretary in the Reich Colonial Office in Berlin. In this function he was a cabinet minister when the war of 1914-1918 started. Since his ideology prescribed the exercise of justice, he was in favor of an understanding among all nations and peoples and continuously during the war he strove for that and fought against those elements which made war more severe and intended to prolong it.
Q. Mrs. Solf, when you speak of the war, you refer, of course, to the first war, do you not?
A. Yes. Against the more severe U-boat warfare he conducted a violent battle. He attempted at the last moment to save the life of Edith Cavell and tried to fight against many other perpetrations. At the end of 1918 he was appointed as Foreign Minister to the last wartime cabinet. It was he who upon the request of Hindenburg and Luddenderff sent the telegrams to President Wilson in order to ask for an armistice. Then in order to save the unity and peace of the country he tried to move the Emperor to resign. Later under the government of the first president of the Republic, Ebert, he tried to save what still could be saved. Then for one year he left all of his offices, but in 1920 he was recalled to assume the post of ambassador in Japan. There he remained until 1928 and took care of economic, but especially cultural relations with the Far East. He esteemed those and and attempted to improve the relations between Japan and the United States.
He warned time and 'again that they should not continue in the path of materialism in Japan. I have had the satisfaction of seeing that now, after the collapse of Japan, the American Government, that is to say the Government of the United States, has recalled all those gentlemen in Japan with whom my husband worked together, the former Foreign Minister Shydehara and Yoshito.
Q. Mrs. Solf, may I interrupt here for a moment. The liberal humanitarian principles for which your husband stood you have recited in part. Are there any other characteristic examples of the humanitarian manner in which your husband lived his distinguished career?
A. My husband, after he had left his office in 1928, not only devoted himself to scientific work, and in all these works played an important role, but first of all when the Nazis came to power he tried to help those who were persecuted; first of all, those who were persecuted on racial grounds. He tried once to make it clear to Goebbels just what the cultured Jews who had been patriots had done for Berlin and for Germany. Goebbels had no understanding for that, and said, "That this poison has penetration even you, Your Excellency, shows how dangerous it is."
Q. May I ask when your husband died?
A. My husband died on 6 February 1936.
Q. From the time of the Nazi rise to power in 1932 until the death of your husband in 1936 did you as a family live according to the precepts which had dictated your conduct before the Nazi rise to power? In other words, did you carry on or try to carry on in the same liberal tradition?