He took that off. He opened the drawer of a table, put his revolver into the drawer, and took out a whip of bull skin - a rubber truncheon. He put it on the table; and after a short time, he started the interrogation. First, they made me stand against the wall, took one paper, and I had to hole that sheet of paper with my nose against the wall.
Q Ask him if he will demonstrate for the Tribunal.
A Yes. (And the witness demonstrated.)
Q How long did he have to stand that way?
A Until he was tired.
Q What happened if tho paper fell?
A When the paper fell down, a Gestapo agent came and kicked us against our legs, and slapped our faces from behind.
Q Did he have to hold anything else against the wall, besides the paper?
AAnd later, I had to hold a thick book.
Q In the same manner?
A In the same manner, yes.
Q Ask him whether or not, as a result... I withdraw that... How long did that first interrogation last?
A That interrogation lasted from eight o'clock in the morning, over noon, until four o'clock in the afternoon, without any interruption.
Q Ask him whether or not he suffered any injuries as a result of beatings he received at that interrogation.
A I was slapped in my face, and as a result of that, my right ear suffered; I don't hear well.
Q Now, I think he said he was brought from Munich to Prague in August of 1941.
A Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Lafollette, it would make a better record if you addressed the question to the witness rather than to the interpreter.
MR. LAFOLLETTE: Yes.
Q Did you have a defense counsel at the trial?
A Yes. Without my knowledge, my wife took a defense counsel.
Q Were Czechoslovakian lawyers permitted to defend before the Special Court at Prague?
A They had no right. They were not permitted.
Q Was your attorney, then, a German attorney?
A Yes, he was.
Q Were you tried on the 26th of September 1941?
A Yes, I was.
Q How long before that did you see the indictment approximately?
AAbout four days prior to that.
Q Was that... When did you see your defense counsel before the trial? About the same time?
A I saw my defense counsel about fourteen days before the trial.
Q Did you have any witnesses at your trial... for the defense?
A I told the Gestapo the names of witnesses who could testify that I always behaved well, and I mentioned only German witnesses, Chief Inspector Gutwirt, Chief Inspector Tuschil, Chief Inspector Wurma, and Strnad. They were all Germans.
Q Were they called at the trial in your defense?
A They were not.
Q In any of the papers that you saw, that were submitted to you, did you find any statements by them?
A No, nothing at all.
Q Did you advise your defense counsel of these men's names?
A Yes.
Q What did the defense counsel say to you, when he first talked to you?
A Counsel told me that my wife had been to see him, and she asked him to take over my defense, and that I could count on a punishment of about a year, or eighteen months.
Q That was your defense counsel that told you?
A Yes, that was the defense counsel.
Q Were you tried, and what sentence did you receive on this charge?
A State's Prosecutor asked for a punishment of one year, and I got a year.
Q Did you serve it?
A Yes.
Q I believe that you said there were approximately ten, originally, in this group.
A Yes, five were tried on the 26th of September, in Prague; and the second group of five came later, and they were tried in 1942 before the People's Court, "Volksgericht", in Dresden.
Q Do you know whether or not one of the men tried in September 1941, was not convicted, was acquitted?
A Yes, there was one.
Q What happened to him?
A He was acquitted by the court, and the court transferred him immediately to the Gestapo in Prague, and the Gestapo sent him to Auschwitz, in Poland.
Q What happened to him in Auschwitz?
A He died, in February 1942.
Q Do you know what happened to the five who were tried before the People's Court in Dresden?
A These five, they were tried by the People's Court in Dresden, they received up to two and three quarters years prison terms in prison.
Q What happened after the prison term?
AAfter they served their time, they were not released home, they were transferred into a concentration camp. One of them died there.
Q Do you know the name of the man who was tried with him, and who was not convicted, and died in Auschwitz?
A Yes, I know it; his name was Jaroslav Cvrtnik.
Q Will you spell that for the record?
A C-v-r-t-n-i-k.
Q When was Heydrich shot?
A Heydrich came to Czechoslovakia on 27 August 1941; on 28 August he took over the power of a Reich Protector; and the same day he was shot and executed... No - I am sorry - wrong translation... The same day the execution and shooting started.
Q You were tried two days before that?
A Yes.
Q What happened to you after you finished your imprionment?
A When I finished my term, the States Railroad opened a disciplinary action against me. I was pensioned as of 1 April 1942, and my pension fund was reduced by five percent.
Q Were you later on taken into Germany again?
A. In July 1942, a comrade came to see me and told me that there would be a general mobilization for work, so he wanted to get me a job in Czechoslovakia. He got a job for me in Budweis, Ceske Budejovice, with a firm called Henzel; it was a brokerage firm. I was employed there until the 3rd of September 1943. From there I was mobilized and brought to Germany, to the Mitteldeutsche Stahlwerke in Groeditz near Riesa.
Q. Now, the court that tried you in Prague, was that a German special court?
A. That was a special German court, a so-called Sondergericht.
Q. The judge and the prosecutors and the officers of that court -- of what nationality were they?
A. They were only Germans.
Q. Do you remember the name of any one of the persons, either the judge or the prosecutor?
A. I remember one name, a man who called himself Ludwig.
Q. Do you remember whether he was a judge or a prosecutor?
A. I think he was a prosecutor, but I could not say it with certainty.
Q. Were you charged with a violation of a German law, as a result of which you were tried and convicted?
A. Yes, that I prepared high treason against the German Reich, of course.
MR. LA FOLLETTE: That is all.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any of defense counsel desire to crossexamine this witness?
DR. DOETZER (Counsel for the defendant Oeschey): May it please the Court, I would like to cross-examine the witness.
CROSS - EXAMINATION BY DR. DOETZER:
Q. Witness, at your interrogations by the Gestapo, you certainly had some terrible experiences. Do you remember the name of the Gestapo official?
A. Yes.
Q. What was his name?
A. Willi Wassersteiner. The other one was called Bambule. The name of the interpreter was Jiskra, and the chief Gestapo official present, his name was Zimmer.
Q. You were interrogated in the Czech language?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you make statements to the Gestapo which did not correspond to the truth?
A. I simply answered their questions.
Q. Did your answers state the truth?
A. Certainly.
Q. As far as I understood the German translation, you were charged with having taken part in the work of a resistance group; the resistance group distributed illegal newspapers which were compiled on the basis of news broadcast by the Czech broadcasting station in London.
A. Yes.
Q. What did you admit about your own participation?
A. I received those newspapers and I kept them in my home. Afterwards I destroyed them, so that nobody should get hold of them.
Q. Did you canvass, or did you admit having canvassed for your resistance group?
A. I did not tell that to the Gestapo because they did not ask me about it.
Q. Did you know that being a member of a resistance group in Czechoslovakia was prohibited?
A. Well, that was forbidden; that is obvious.
Q. Did you know, from placards or from announcements in the press, what punishments people who committed such acts had made themselves liable for?
A. At the beginning I did not know about that.
Q. I did not understand the answer.
A. At the beginning of the occupation.
Q. At the beginning of the occupation?
A. Yes.
Q. When you began to be active, you did know that you were violating rules or prohibitions of the Government of the Protectorate and of the German authorities?
A. Yes, I did know that.
Q. You were under Gestapo arrest for a long time?
A. From the 7th of January until the 13th of March 1941.
Q. After that, if I understood you correctly, you were brought before a German judge, or a Czech?
A. I was brought before a German investigating judge at Munich.
Q. The German investigating judge at Munich?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you know that man was a judge?
A. We were told that he was, and also his signature appeared on the warrant for our arrest: Dr. Arndt.
Q. Was that investigating judge in the Gestapo building or in another building?
A. No, he was not in the Gestapo building; he was in the prison building.
Q. Did the judge immediately show you the warrant for your arrest, or did he first interrogate you in detail?
A. First he interrogated me, and after that the warrant was presented to me.
Q. With what was the interrogation concerned?
A. I had to confirm the statements which I had made to the Gestapo.
Q. Did he tell you what law or what legal rulings you had infringed, and why you were going to be taken into custody?
A. Yes; he said that I had been charged with having worked against the German Reich, and on the warrant a paragraph 139 was quoted; 139.
Q. What kind of a paragraph was that?
A. I don't know what sort of a paragraph it was; I did not know the German laws.
Q. So it was a German law?
A. Yes, it was a German law.
Q. Did the newspapers, or other public announcements in your home-land -- did they introduce German laws into your homeland? Did you know about that?
A. With us the Protectorate laws were enforced so far as penal matters were concerned. By that I mean thefts, etc. However, as concerned political matters, I was under the impression that the German laws were enforced.
Q. You don't know it exactly then, do you?
A. I assume that, because we did not have such laws in Czechoslovakia.
Q. Certainly you had laws against high treason in the old Czechoslovakia.
A. Yes, we did have those, yes.
Q And in Czechoslovakia you had also legal provisions, if I am not wrong.
A But we were not punished under the Czechoslovak laws. They were Czechoslovak laws, and I never did anything against Czechoslovakia.
Q You do remember for certain that warrant quoted a German provision, and that it was Paragraph 139?
A Yes.
Q Were you told what legal means there were against the warrant?
A I could do nothing against that. It simply quoted Paragraph 139 and I could do nothing about it.
Q I believe the witness has misunderstood me. I wanted to ask him whether, when the judge opened the warrant did he draw attention to the fact that you would be able to complain, to register a complaint about the warrant?
A No, he did not say that, but I signed the record and I received the warrant. I was taken back to the cell.
Q Did you express your agreement with the warrant?
A There was nothing I could do.
Q Were you pleased that the warrant of the judge had released you from the Gestapo custody?
A Well, I was glad that at last I had finished with that interrogation.
Q When did you receive the indictment?
A I never received a indictment.
Q Did the defense counsel receive the indictment, by any chance?
A I do not know whether he received it. He didn't show it to me. I only received a summons about four days before the trial which said that it was to appear there, that the trial in fact would be held.
Q Did the defense counsel discuss the matter with you in detail?
A The defense counsel knew of the indictment, and he told me when he advised me that I would have to expect a sentence of one year to eighteen months.
Q Did he speak to you in Czech or in German?
A Czech.
Q He was a German attorney who had been a resident in Czechoslovakia for a long time, who had formerly been a Czechoslovak national?
A I do not know but very probably.
Q Did you discuss the point whether paragraph 139 did apply to you as a Czech citizen?
A I didn't know.
Q Well, I want to know whether you discussed that point, whether you discussed it with the defense counsel.
A I did not discuss that point with the defense counsel. He merely told me that I would have to expect one year to eighteen months. The defense counsel told me, my case was a light one. If I had come under Paragraph 80 or paragraph 83 it would have lasted until the end of the war.
Q When was the trial held?
A Yes.
Q When? When?
A On the 26th of September, 1941, in Prague on Pankrac.
Q Witness, you said that you were tried before a German Special Court. How many judges were on the bench? How many judges were on the Bench?
A I believe there were three judges.
Q How many defendants were sitting in the dock?
A I was alone.
Q Was your defense counsel present from the opening until the end of the trial?
A Yes, from the beginning.
Q Do you remember in what way the trial was held?
A Yes, I do remember.
Q Did the presiding judge open the trial, or what happened?
A The presiding judge open the trial. He read the indictment to me.
Q Just a second. Witness do you remember that exactly? Was it not another gentlemen from the bench who read out your indictment to you?
A It was an interpreter. It was read to me in Czech.
Q I believe that. The interpreter, therefore, was there too. As far as you remember there were three judges, the interpreter, your defense counsel, and yourself?
AAltogether there were five gentlemen there on the bench, probably three behind the table and one other gentleman on either side of the judges. Who of the two gentlemen who were sitting at the side of the judges read out your indictment to you?
A The one who sat on the right side.
Q The one who sat on the right side. Who was he? Was he perhaps the prosecutor, or was it another gentleman?
A I believe he was the interpreter.
Q. Well, you think ti was the interpreter. Well, did you get a chance to speak up for yourself at the trial?
A. I was only able to answer questions which had been put to me.
Q. Were you able in your reply to say everything you wanted to say?
A. When a question was put to me, I answered it.
Q. Did your defense counsel ask you any questions?
A. The defense counsel put no questions to me. When the Court withdrew for deliberations the Prosecution rose and gave a short address and that was all.
Q. We must find out exactly about that and see whether we can stimulate your memory. As you say, you answered questions which were put to you?
A. Yes.
Q. Who put those questions?
A. Well, I believe it was the presiding judge, or perhaps it was the Prosecutor. I am really not certain. I always got it from the interpreter.
Q. Did the Court withdraw for deliberations before the Prosecutor demanded the sentence, or afterwards?
A. At first the indictment was read out to me, then questions were put to me. Then the Prosecutor demanded a sentence.
Q. Just a second.
MR. LAFOLLETTE: Excuse me. Let him answer the question completely. I wish counsel would let him finish his answer. I haven't said a word yet.
THE PRESIDENT: If he has anything more to say then defense counsel should not interrupt until he has fully completed his answer in each instance.
BY DR. DOETZER:
Q. Continue, please.
A. I have nothing more to say about that. It is all right like that.
Q. Did your defense counsel not say anything?
A. Well, I have said that already. After the prosecutor had demanded a sentence, when the judges returned from their room, my defense counsel spoke for one minute at the maximum, and then I felt that he was pleading for a shorter sentence.
Q. In other words, your defense counsel was pleading for a shorter sentence?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the verdict?
A. The verdict corresponded to the demand of the Prosecutor.
Q. Did you receive a verdict in writing?
A. I received nothing.
Q. But the court read out a verdict?
A. Yes.
Q. As far as you can remember, what did it say?
A. It said that I was sentenced to one year imprisonment.
Q. And for what offense?
A. For the offense with which I had been charged in the indictment.
Q. Well, don't you recall the legal explanations of the court for your offense?
A. In my view, that was the shortest sentence. I had not spread any news, but because I was all alone.
Q. Witness, you said you had been charged with preparation for high treason. Did the Court say anything of the kind?
A. It was in German. I don't remember it.
Q. But it was translated for you?
A. Well, I was so excited, I have forgotten it all.
Q. You can't remember it. Well, if I summarize: you can't say for certain whether you were sentenced for preparation of high treason?
A. As far as I know, under the German law of those days, Pagegraph 180 to 183 governed cases of high treason; and 139 therefore must be concerned with some lesser offenses.
Q. Witness, do you know whether the court pointed out that the provisions under which you were sentenced had not only been introduced by a German law but also by a law of the Hacha Government?
A. They were only German laws. Naturally, they were also inforced in the Protectorate.
Q. You do not know therefore whether it was due to German orders or orders of the Protectorate Government that they were enforced in Czechoslovakia.
A. Oh, I do know. It was due to German orders that were introduced.
Q. Do you know that for certain?
A. Yes, for certain.
Q. I have to put this to you very seriously: do you know for certain whether the Hacha Government too did not introduce those laws?
A. Yes. I do know it for certain, because if the Protectorate Government had introduced such laws, in that case the Czech police would have arrested me and I would have been brought before a Czech court.
Q. I want to help you. This is a conclusion which you draw from this fact alone.
MR. LAFOLLETTE: If Your Honor, please, I object. I object first because the witness has been asked for conclusions for a long time; also, because at no part in the direct examination was this witness asked as to what were the legal grounds of his trial other than want was stated to him in the Indictment.
The witness has repeatedly answered that he was tried under German Law, and as far as the relevancy of this interrogation is concerned, I don't find that it's material to any issue in the case. Certainly, it doesn't go to the direct examination, as I recall. But I don't think it's relevant to argue with this witness as to what law he was tried under, although he has answered to the best of his knowledge that he was tried for a violation of German law. As to the fairness of who read the verdict to him and why the verdict was read to him, those are not material to the trial in this case at all. I think the issue is whether or not German law rightfully existed at that time in the Protectorate, and that is something that this witness can't testify to.
THE PRESIDENT: Naturally, the Tribunal would desire to be liberal in matters of cross examination rather than restrictive, but yet it has been apparent to the Tribunal for some time that questions have been propounded concerning the law under which he was tried, so far as he knows, and whether or not the sentence corresponded to the indictment -- all of which was necessarily so -- had to be so. It doesn't seem to me that the cross examination is eliciting any additional truths. And repeating: I don't like to be restrictive on cross examination, but it appears that you are going over the same grounds and developing laws that are apparent and obvious. Please be guided by those admonitions.
DR. DOETZLER: May it please the Court, I have only proceeded in this manner because the witness said that he was sentenced for preparation of high treason, and the discussion developed for that reason. But I will not put any further questions of that nature.
BY DR. DOETZLER:
Q. Witness, you said that from your resistance group, several other Czech citizens had been sentenced by a Special Court and that several others yet had been sentenced by the People's Court.
A. Yes.
Q. In the direct examination, I was unable to understand whether the person who was acquitted was tried by the Special court in Prague or by the People's Court in Dresden.
A. It was the Special Court in Prague.
Q. In the German translation, I then heard you say that this man who was acquitted was handed over to the Gestapo by the Court.
A. Yes.
Q. How do you know that?
A. How do I know that? Because from the court, all of us were taken to a cell and by that time we knew what our sentence would be, Curtnik had no witness against him, with the exception of one who testified that he had given him a pamphlet -- the court had no witness against him, and therefore had to acquit him. He was very glad because he thought he was going home. But just before we moved to Prague, on the way the Gestapo officials told him, "You haven't confessed anything. But that doesn't matter at all. You will be in custody for two years at least." And in consequence, he was handed over to the Gestapo again at Prague, at the orders of the Budweis Gestapo, and was then sent to Auschwitz where he died in February of 1942. His wife was informed.
Q. According to your description just now, you do not know if the court handed him over to the Gestapo?
A. I don't know how that was; I don't know. But on the same day, the supervisors were waiting for him and handed him over to the Gestapo.
Q. What supervisors were they?
A. German supervisors at the Pankrao. They were in a kind of green uniform.
Q. When you had finished your prison term, as far as I understood you, you were discharged and were not arrested by the Gestapo.
A. No. When I served my sentence I was not arrested.
Q. Were you taken into Gestapo custody later?
A. No, no more.
Q. Well then, when you served your sentence, the German judiciary no longer laid their hands on you?
A. After I had finished my sentence in January '42, I was discharged and allowed to go home, but four days later, all of those of us who had been discharged -- and there were four of us -- the fifth had died -- all of us had to go to the Gestapo. There we were told, "What you have seen, you have seen; but you mustn't talk about it. And if we meet again and hear any more about you, then you will never get back."
Q. Those words were spoken by a Gestapo official?
A. Yes.
Q. You then said that five other members of your resistance group were sentenced by the People's Court?
A. Yes.
Q. What had they been charged with?
A. As far as I remember, they had violated Paragraph 180 and 183.
Q. Do you know that because you heard it from the witness, or did you hear about it later?
A. They wrote that in their letters home.
Q. What were the sentences?
A. Tow years and three months up to two years and nine months.
Q. Prison or penitentiary?
A. Penitentiary.
Q. When did those five serve their sentences? When did they finish?
A. Four of them after the 9th of May 1945 -- that is, after the end of the war, returned.
Q. Four returned?
A. Yes, four.
Q. Had they been only in a penitentiary or also in Gestapo custody?
A. In the penitentiary, like all prisoners. When they had finished their sentence, they were transferred to a concentration camp where they stayed until the end of the war.
Q. What concentration camp?
A. I don't know.
Q. When were they sentenced?
A. In 1942. About the middle of the year.
Q. If one of them was a sentence of two years and nine months, in April 1945, he should have been in the penitentiary?
A. Oh, no, that is wrong. The prison term in 1941, after the arrest, the time in prison was counted, and when it ended only two years were left, and only the rest of that time was left to spend in the concentration camp.
Q. In your case, too, the Gestapo sentence was counted in, wasn't it?
A. Yes.
DR. DOETZER: I have finished my cross-examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other defense counsel desire to cross-examine this witness.
DR. GRUBE: I have one or two questions to ask the witness, Your Honor. Witness, you said -
THE PRESIDENT: One moment, please, Dr. Grube. I would like to inquire whether any other defense counsel would want to examine this witness after Dr. Grube has completed his examination. If not, we have reached the time for our recess, but in order that this witness may be excused, you may proceed with this examination if you expect to complete same.
DR. GRUBE: I have only a few questions to ask him.
BY DR. GRUBE:
Q. Witness, you said before that you had been interrogated in Munich by Dr. Arndt, the investigating judge?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, I will ask you to tell the Court what happened at that interrogation. What was said there different from which had been used during the interrogation of the Gestapo?
A. No.
Q. Will you tell the Court, please, what happened at that interrogation?
A. I was taken there by the prison warden. The investigating judge was alone in his room. There was an interpreter there who translated the questions into Czech, and because my testimony was identical with the testimony I had given to the Gestapo, everything worked smoothly.
Q. Did the investigating judge exercise any pressure on you?
A. No.
Q. Did you tell the investigating judge what treatment you had received from the Gestapo?
A. No, I did not tell him, because he did not ask me.
Q. Did you say that your statements before the investigating judge had not been identical with your testimony to the Gestapo?
A. That is a question that has not been correctly portrayed. That is not what I said. My testimony to the Gestapo was of as much importance as my testimony before the investigating judge, so there was no difference.
Q. And that you gave your testimony before the investigating judge voluntarily, for there had been no pressure?
A. Yes, he put the questions to me and I gave him the same answers.
DR. GRUBE: No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will take their usual fifteen minute recess at this time.
MR. LaFOLLETTE: There is no redirect examination.
THE PRESIDENT: No redirect examination?
MR. LaFOLLETTE: There is no redirect examination.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may be excused.
(Witness excused)
(Recess)