Q Where was that Central Intelligence Office?
A This Central Intelligence Office was in Koblenz, in the Castle.
Q For whom did this Central Intelligence Office work?
A That was the Central Intelligence Office of the SA.
Q Oh, of the SA.
A Supposedly for internal traffic.
Q You said that you were a scout. Were you at that time too?
A I was sent into the SA to get information.
Q If you were there to obtain information, I assume that you had a commission from somebody to do so.
A Yes, that is how it was. First of all, in 1933, I had one commission, and later I got several more.
Q Who gave you the assignment in 1933?
A. The so-called Catholic action group; that is a Catholic Youth organization. In 1934 the International Friendship League in London was added. I became an honorary member of it.
Q Please repeat that so I can get it. In what English organization are you an honorary member?
A International Friendship League.
Q What kind of an organization it that? Is that one of young students?
A It is an international student organization.
Q So you said you worked for the Catholic action grown?
A Catholic Action.
Q Who, of the Catholic Bishops, knows you well?
AArchbishop of Trier, Kornwasser.
Q Which other Bishops? You don't have to enumerate them all, two or three names are enough.
A I don't knew any others personally.
Q You don't know any others personally?
A No, only through intermediaries.
Q To what SA unit did you belong?
A That was not a Sturm unit, it was the SA intelligence Division of the Group Westmark.
Q The Official designation of the Group, please, as it was used at that time?
A Group Westmark; Westmark.
Q And what subdivision did you belong to? I want to know the smallest unit.
A I didn't belong to any unit; I was merely in the Central Office as an observer.
Q Please name two or three of your official superiors at that time.
A One name was Bertram. I hardly know grades at all to this very day; I never was interested In them. Another one was Kraemer, I believe, who had oak leaves, or I don't know what his rank was.
Q None of the names of your superiors at that time are familiar to you?
A I just told you, Kraemer, and one with oak leaves.
MR LA FOLLETTE: Pardon me. Your honor, I think I must object to what amounts, in my opinion, to abuse of the witness and particularly the reference to the Friendship League, because I remember that Dr. Brieger made a big speech here about the martyrdom of the Solf family. I am sure he doesn't object to people who are opposed to war.
DR BRIEGER: Of course not, no.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness seems to be able to take care of himself.
DR. BRIEGER: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, let me ask yon one question. You first told us that you were working in, and we understood for, the SA.
In reality, what you mean is that you were in the SA but you were working for the Catholic organization; is that correct?
THE WITNESS: Yes, yes, that is correct.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
BY DR. BRIEGER.
Q What was the year when you joined the SA?
A 1933.
Q It was 1933?
A Yes
Q How often were you at Nurnberg Party Days?
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment. You are given a very wide scope in your cross-examination by reason of the fact that you apparently desire it, but you have asked that question three of four times. It is unnecessary to badger the witness at all.
DR. BRIEGER: No, please. May I have the permission to again ask that question?
BY DR. BRIEGER:
Q How often did you take part in Nurnberg Party meetings?
A Never. I never attended any meetings, not even a local group meeting. I always went about in civilian clothes. I did not own a uniform. Occasionally, for purposes of information, I went to this Central Intelligence Office, in each case for a special assignment, and, in my entire life, perhaps 25 times.
Q Witness, you said yourself that it was impossible, at that age, to be accepted in the SA. May I ask you what your unusual Party services were which made it possible for that minimum age requirement to be eliminated?
MR. LA FOLLETTE: That constitutes argument with the witness, abuse of the witness, and badgering of the witness. I am getting a little bit tired of it now.
THE PRESIDENT: Objection sustained.
MR. LA FOLLETTE: Maybe some of the other defense counsel would like to send notes up too; I would appreciate that.
THE WITNESS : I don't not want to be protected. I will answer any question. I don't see why I should shirk any questions at all.
It was like this. As a member of the Catholic Youth, I did not want to join the Hitler Youth which at that time was regarded in the world as especially high hat. In particular, I wanted to join the SA, and a chaplain, Oskar Stein, the first person who gave me an assignment, mediated for me, so in spite of the fact that I was only 17 years old allegedly the youngest SA man in Koblenz, I became a so-called member.
Q Are you still in touch with Chaplain Stein?
A No. Unfortunately, Chaplain Stein has died.
Q Where were you employed as SA man when there was a pogrom against the Jews in October 1938 after the murder of von Rath?
A I almost have to laugh about that question.
Q I assume that you were used as informer.
AAt that time I was studying at the University of Bonn. In order not to be employed in addition to my informing activities to have to do serious service I, if ever possible, had leave given to me in order to change from case to case. When allegedly I had time at my disposal I went to the SA in accordance with my assignments in order to gather some information there. In this way in Koblenz I said I am doing SA service in Bonn, and in Bonn I said I am serving with the SA in Koblenz. In actuality I did not serve anywhere. But only when it was necessary I went there. Moreover, and I forgot to say this, I frequently for months was in Africa, Asia Minor, or Europe outside of Germany, so if I add up all these times, I was away from home for a long time.
Q During what years did you make these long trips abroad?
A My first trip abroad I took in 1933, and the last in 1940 to Switzerland on an assignment of the IFR.
Q Were you overseas?
A Only in Africa.
Q What did you say?
A Only in Africa.
Q Where were you in Africa?
A Morocco, Algiers, Congo, Tunisia, Egypt, the Anglo-Egyptian Sudan, Eritrea, Arabia, then in Asia, Turkey.
Q Did you do that for your own means? I am not interested where you got the money, but were you sent by an organization, and if so, state which one.
A The actual financing was not necessary for me. As a German, however, it was necessary that I had foreign currency while I was in foreign countries, and this I received through good intermediaries via the Deutche Bank, in part, and so-called certificates of urgency, in part, even through the University, through the University Prof.
Dr. Kunkel.
Q Where is Prof. Kunkel today?
A I don't know.
Q As SA man after some time you automatically were accepted as a Party member, is that correct?
A No.
Q Well, how did you avoid it?
A Of course later on when I had passed my little first state examination I was frequently urged to join the Party. However, I told them what I intended to do, that is, to become a professor. I based my constant refusal to join the Party or even to visit any meeting by saying, after all, I am a member of the SA. I could cover everything by that, the same way that I achieved my release from the Gestapo.
Q Were you drafted into the Wehrmacht?
A In 1941 for 28 days.
Q What was that?
A In 1941. Only 28 days.
Q Why not longer?
A That was again something that I achieved by having good friends of mine declare me 4-F, that is to say, to send me home, but there is a reason for this. I have an injury on my shoulder, but normally I would not have been released from the army.
Q Have you passed your denazification board proceedings?
A I am from the French zone. They don't have any denazification boards there yet.
Q Whore did you fill out your questionnaires?
A In Koblenz, on the first day after the Americans occupied to Maj.
McKiefer.
Q What evidence in your favor did you present on the questionnaire?
A I didn't understand your question.
Q What formal incriminating statements did you make in your questionnaire? Or let me ask you this way, were you a member of the SS?
A No.
Q The Waffen SS?
A Never.
Q Were you used with the destroying troops in the East?
A I believe that the question is ridiculous, almost. I was in nothing except the SA and the Lawyers' League.
Q You said that you were an informer or an informant. Were you used in concentration camps?
A. No.
Q I now come to the Stuttgart complex. In what capacity did you go to Stuttgart? As Referendar, if I understood you correctly.
A Yes. My last stage of preparation had to be served in a District Court of Appeal, and since Cologne was at that time already too loud, I reported to Stuttgart whore it was somewhat more quiet.
Q For my information, what year was this?
A 1943.
Q 1943?
A Yes, in January.
Q To what court were you assigned?
A I believe at that time it was the Fourth Civil Senate, and under President Goetz, and the District Court of Appeals Counsellor Irion and Dr. Freuling.
Q Were you working only at the Fourth Senate?
A I don't want to say that with certainty, but I believe it was the Fourth Senate. In any case, only in one senate.
Q Did you have to be introduced to the Chief President at that time to introduce yourself?
A I don't know what was his name. He examined me. Keunster, or Kuestner, I believe.
Q Was he a younger gentleman or an older gentleman?
A He was an elderly gentleman, rather tall.
Q What did you work in the Senate consist of?
A The drafting of opinions and sentences and attending sessions and advising. That was all.
Q Did you know at that time from whom you took your examination in Stuttgart?
A District Court of Appeals President Kuestner, then the Senate President Dr. Muenzel, and I didn't know the other gentleman.
TEE PRESIDENT: Dr. Brieger -
DR. BRIEGER: I want to test his credibility, your Honor. I shall finish this group right away, this group of questions, and then I will come to the essential point.
THE PRESIDENT: I have not yet made my statement to you, Dr. Brieger. If you will wait until you hear what I have to say -
DR. BRIEGER: Yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: I extended you a very wide scope in permitting you cross examination to credit, and we think it is now time for you to proceed to cross examine, if you desire, concerning any matter which this witness has stated and which affects your client. Proceed along that line.
DR. BRIEGER: All the questions pertain to the credibility of the witness, your Honor, so far.
BY DR. BRIEGER:
Q Now I shall again start with that time when you had an opportunity to observe Cuhorst's activity at the Special Court. For my own information, may I ask you quite briefly again, what period was that?
A 20th of January. That is supposedly a few days later. I didn't go there the first day, so let us say approximately the beginning of February until shortly before my examination.
That was on 18 August, 1943.
Q 1944?
A No, 1943.
Q Oh, 1943. 1943. Do you recall how long you took advantage of this opportunity?
A What do you mean?
Q For half a year. I mean, until what month?
A Shortly before my examination.
Q That was what date?
A 18 August 1943.
Q Oh, august, 1943. Yes, yes. Did you only attend cases at the Special Court or also at the Penal Senate, or how was it?
A Not at the Penal Senate, but the People's Court. One session of the People's Court I did attend.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment. Do you mean People's Court or Special Court?
THE WITNESS: People's Court. The People's Court which once held a session for a few days, I believe for a few days, in Stuttgart. I believe it was because of a number of Czech Communists. The maid defendant was a so-called Mitrepa waiter, that is, an European dining car waiter.
BY DR. BRIEGER:
Q accordingly, may I quote the names of a number of cases to you?
A I can't answer you that. I don't know any names. Outside of Kappler I don't know any names.
Q Accordingly then may I quote you the names of some cases and you can tell me, or you can tell the Tribunal, or tell me, your observations Did you attend the Oehlbach case?
A I can tell you that your efforts are entirely with any point, because I don't know any names. I have to confess that I have a very bad memory for names, and even on my own practice as a judge I can hardly remember any names, because I don't attach any importance to names.
I Know the content, but no names. I believe I won't be able to name any name to you. To be sure, some criminals or offenders who were executed, led to the execution, I still know. Among others, Henriette Wagner, a man named Asterle, and as far as I recall, the Prince Hohenlohe Langenburg.
Q Prince Hohenlohe Langenburg?
A Yes, I believe that was his name. He was a prince, in any case.
Q You say you know that they were led to the execution. How often did you attend executions yourself?
A In Stuttgart I believe four times. I was present during executions. How many cases there were, I don't know. I made careful reports and charts about them, or diagrams. The first were 24 cases, which were finished in 50 minutes.
Q Did you have a stop watch with you?
A No, but as I already told you, I didn't go there for my own pleasure, but as an informant, and therefore I kept my eyes open and paid attention.
Q Were you obligated officially to go to these executions?
A On the contrary, it was even forbidden. I managed to get into the confidence of the then Senior Public Prosecutor Dr. Link. I reported to him that I intended to write a thesis on this field for my professorship. Ho was very enthusiastic, and thus permitted me to attend opening sessions and executions.
Q Did you always go there with Schwarz, that is, with the Assessor Eberhard Schwarz, of did you sometimes go alone?
THE PRESIDENT: It seems to me that counsel had undertaken to inquire concerning the matter relative to his client Cuhorst. You have not been doing so. Will you proceed along that line.
DR. BRIEGER: Yes, yes, your Honor.
BY DR. BRIEGER:
Q Witness, in July and August 1943 were you also in Stuttgart?
A Yes.
Q At that time do you recall cases where you attended trials where Cuhorst was Presiding Judge?
A I can no longer name the period to you. Mainly while I was working on my large thesis for the state examination, but was working from morning to night in preparation for my state examination. That was the end of June until the middle of July. At that time I did not attend any sessions.
Q Witness, I shall help you to refresh your memory. I shall name you one or another name which describe the facts of the case to you briefly, and you state what you on your side know about it. Micheal Schmidt, post robber. Is that a concept to you?
Court No. III, Case No. III.
A. If he was an old men, approximately 60 to 65 years, who was already pensioned, retired, but as an old civil servant had again been brought from oblivion by the Nazis in order to serve again, if it was this man, because he had a special passion for smoking, from field post letters -- I believe they were letters and not packages, occasionally stole amounts of cigarettes, then I recall this case.
Q. Yes. What observations did you make in that case?
THE PRESIDENT: You are still on the same subject of cross examination to credit. Do you desire to inquire of this witness anything concerning his opportunity or what he heard Mr. Cuhorst say? Will you do that?
DR. BRIEGER: Yes.
BY DR. BRIEGER:
Q. You were speaking of conversations that you listened to, -- overheard. Tell me in every individual case to whom Cuhorst made the remarks. First the remark: "We again have to deliver some heads to you", or I will tell you right what the remark was. I may say first, since -- may I assume, since you were Referendar, that you knew the names of the gentlemen?
A. No. In Stuttgart I know the names of perhaps five or six people. No more. I do not recall names. I am not interested in the, because outside of Cuhorst these gentlemen did not arouse my interest, except, of course, a few gentlemen whom I might have met later on during, the examination.
Q. Who told you that Cuhorst was an interesting criminal judge? Who was the first one to tell you?
A. When one arrived as a newcomer in Stuttgart, of course one inquired about the conditions in particular the colleagues, the referendats, especially Schwarz whom you mentioned and whom, by the way, I have met here again since I knew him, and he is the only one whose name I know -- merely some gentlemen of the Prosecution, perhaps two or three.
I didn't know any of the criminal judges. Of the civil judges outside of my chamber, perhaps only one. I don't know names.
Q. In regard to no remark which you made here can you state to whom Cuhorst made this remark?
A. No. No, no. I don't know the names.
Q. I ask you in every case now to state me on the occasion of which special case that remark was made.
A. Well, that, of course, I can't tell you either. At least let us say without exaggeration I attended 15 to 20 sessions. That is putting it as a low figure.
Q. Now often were you there alone, and now often together with Eberhard Schwarz?
A. I believe I was mostly alone by myself. However, if Herr Schwarz whom of course I know, was working in a different field in part, he was there too, if he had time. Also with other colleagues, but their names I don't know any more.
Q. How does it happen that you got in touch with the Prosecution here? Did you offer your services as a witness in this case, or did somebody suggest to you that you should come here as a witness?
A. In this trial here, you mean?
Q. Yes.
A. Due to my former activity, which I believe now you know quite sufficiently already, a few hours after the American troops entered Koblenz I was called because abroad they knew me already as a well-known person, and from that time on I was a special man, a specially trusted man of the American, as I am today of the French military government.
Q. Where were you used as a trusted man of the American military government?
A. In Koblenz.
Q. In Koblenz?
A. Yes. In Koblenz. As a trusted man I had not excaped, but during the collapse I remained there in Koblenz. In regard to all courts except two in the entire area of the District Court of Appeal of Koblenz -
Q. Please mention the name of one or the other American officers under whom you worked, their names.
A. I am still a very good friend of Maj. McKiefer, at present Lawyer in New York. I believe before that he was Public Prosecutor in New York, Attorney General. Mr. Dr. Bonn, German emigrant from Berlin, Mr. Orbach of CIC. He was a professor from Cincinatti. I don't know whether I am pronouncing the name correctly. Orbach. Then Mr. Goltz, Paul Goltz, and -- Just a moment. Names -- I just can't remember names.
THE PRESIDENT: I think you have answered. You have named enough of them.
BY DR. BRIEGER:
Q. Now we will come back to Cuhorst. Who told you to watch Cuhorst?
A. During the war I had very limited contact with foreign countries. During the war I could not get any specific assignments, especially not from foreign countries, out it was a general tendency that everything that was interesting, especially in regard to intended actions, I marked down not on paper, but in secret nature. Unfortunately, everything burned up except my execution records, which, thank God, I saved, because I put them away. On my own initiative, because I was working in the entire field, I took over the watching of Cuhorst and others. In Stuttgart, however, Cuhorst was the only one.
Q. And these conversations between Cuhorst and the other gentlemen, did they happen in the halls or in the consultation chamber, or where?
A. Of course, since I was an unknown person I never entered the consultation chamber, but I saw Cuhorst in front of his office, on the way to his office, in the washroom once, and so forth, where, in a show-off manner, I would like to say, he made these remarks. I greeted Cuhorst. I don't know whether he recalls me. I hardly think so. I almost didn't recognize him myself, but he didn't know my name.
Q. During all of the last months were you in contact with Eberhard Schwarz?
A. When I heard about the Justice case I thought to myself, of course you could testify to a few things, yourself, too. But since I don't like to offer my services myself I didn't do so, but I hoped that Eberhard Schwarz -- I believe that this is the first time I heard is first name, Eberhard but in any case, Herr Schwarz, that he was still living and since he was from Stuttgart, who knew Cuhorst very well, would take his own steps so that justice would be done.
Q. Did you discuss these matters in detail with him that you are testifying about today?
A. No. I saw Herr Schwartz for the first time 48 hours ago.
Q. For the first time since when?
A. Since 1943.
Q. But did you frequently correspond with him because of these things?
A. No. To this very day I don't know where he is living.
Q. Did you also make notes in regard to Cuhorst as presiding judge?
A. Not during the session, but afterwards.
Q. And these notes were sent to an intelligence office?
A. I was not that careless, no.
Q. Did you wire them, send them over by radio, or how did you forward them?
A. I had very secret possibilities to forward them to my friends and acquaintances.
Q. Otherwise I am not curious, but here I am very interested in these secret possibilities.
MR. LA FOLLETTE: I object, in regard to what he did with the information.
THE PRESIDENT: The objection is sustained.
MR. LA FOLLETTE: I think it is about time we stopped arguing with the witness. I thought you wanted to leave.
DR. BRIEGER: This is very important business, Mr. La Follette.
BY DR. BRIEGER:
Q. Did you ever see a death sentence list by Cuhorst, or did Eberhard Schwarz ask you to help in making up the list?
A. No.
Q. Never?
A. No. A death sentence list I never saw.
Q. In what capacity are you employed now? If I understand you correctly, as a judge?
A. As a judge, yes.
Q. What is your official rank? What are you, a District Court judge, or what?
A. No. My promotion was delayed in the Nazi time for reasons that I was discharged as a judge and transferred to one prosecution on criminal cases, therefore I was not promoted. And after the collapse until today there was no promotion in the French zone.
Q. But now you are a judge, or what are you? What is the nature of your activity? I didn't quite understand that.
A. I am employed as a judge with the title Gerichts Assessor, and I am associate judge in a civil chamber. I am especially and particularly working on divorce cases, that is, cases legally speaking.
Q. Thus your denazification proceedings have not been quite concluded as an SA man?
A. I am very proud to have been an SA man, in quotes. I don't consider that a negative thing but a positive, a plus, as well as my friends abroad consider it.
DR. BRIEGER: Thank you, witness.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness is excused.
MR. LA FOLLETTE: Call Wolfgang Wiskott.
WOLFGANG WISKOTT, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE BLAIR: Hold up your right hand and repeat after me the following oath:
I swear by God, the almighty and Onmiscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE BLAIR: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LA FOLLETTE:
Q. Will you state your name, please?
A. Wolfgang Wiskott.
Q. Your profession?
A. Amtsgerichtsrat, local court judge, at present suspended from service.
Q. When did you begin work with the Reich Kommissar for the Ukraine? Was it in 1944?
A. No, in the beginning of 1942.
Q. In 1942. And you worked until when in the legal department there?
A. Until 1944.
Q. Do you know the defendant Cuhorst in this case?
A. Yes, I meet him in Rowno, in 1943.
Q. Will you tell the Court where he sits in the dock, please?
A. Yes, he is sitting in the second row, and he is wearing a uniform coat.
Q. Who was the president of the German Upper Court in the Ukraine when the defendant Cuhorst came there?
A. That was Senate President Dr. Funk.
Q. Do you remember approximately how long Cuhorst stayed?
A. One to two weeks.
Q. Were you assigned to answer his questions about possible service in the Ukraine or was Dr. Funk assigned to that?
A. Dr. Funk did so himself.
Q. Do you remember while he was there the occasion of a session in the German Upper Court in Shitomir?
A. Yes, the German Upper Court held a session in Shitomir while Cuhorst was in the Ukraine.
Q. Did you sit as an associate judge?
A. Yes, I was an associate judge.
Q. And who was the presiding judge? Dr. Funk?
A. Dr. Funk, yes.
Q. And who was tried?
A. A German was tried--a Reich German. I don't recall his name.
Q. Did the defendant Cuhorst sit in that trial as judge?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he cast a vote in the verdict?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. What was the sentence?
A. Death sentence.
Q. Was the man executed?
A. Later on he was executed.
Q. At the time Cuhorst sat, how long had you been assigned to the Legal Department of the Ukraine?
A. In the court?
Q. Well, no, in the Legal Department generally--at the time of this trial which we talked of.
A. About ten months.
Q. Were you acquainted with the laws with reference to the appointment of judges in the Ukraine at the time Cuhorst sat?
A. Yes, the German Code of Legal procedure had to be applied in accordance with its meaning.
Q. I am talking about now with reference to the appointment of a judge to sit as a judge in the Ukraine. Are you acquainted with the laws and regulations governing that?
A. Yes.
Q. I ask you whether in your opinion Cuhorst had any legal authority to sit as a judge in that case by virtue of any appointment?
A. No, he had only been sent to the Ukraine to inform himself about the legal situation there, and so forth.
Q. That is all CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. BRIEGER:
Q. Witness, may I start with the assumption that your request for summoning is in the record?
A. Yes.
Q. How are you employed today?
A. I am in a private position in Hackenburg.
Q. And at that time you were a judge?
A. At that time I was referent for the Reichkemmisar in Rowno, and in addition, I worked as a part-time judge.
Q. You are a full jurist?
A. Yes, I am a full jurist.