Q Did you have any function of command within the SS?
A No.
Q At the beginning and during the war, the members of the General Ss as a rule were drafted to the Waffen-SS. Was that the case with you too?
A No. I was drafted to a unit of the Army. I assume that I was not drafted to the Waffen-SS because I was not a regular member of the SS.
Q The prosecution asserts that you had been a favorite of Himmler's and you heard it said the other day that you were supposed to be a friend of Himmler's. What can you say in that connection?
A I was not a friend of Himmler's and I did not consider myself as one of his favorites. Himmler came from the same town and that was just a matter of coincidence. Neither before the conference in the spring of 1937 nor afterwards, was I in any close relationship with him, nor did I ever approach him with a personal request. I was promoted in the SS, but practically only after I had become a Ministerial Director in the Reich Ministry of Justice. As for my professional career, Himmler certainly did not do anything to it as long as I was with the Reich Supreme Court; and that I became Ministerial Director afterwards, that I did not consider a particular advantage or favor because at the Reich Supremo Court, according to what my previous president had told me, I could have expected that after the war I would have obtained the position of a senate president. It is my personal point of view that the position of a senate president at the Reich Senate is to be considered higher than Ministerial Director in the Reich Ministry of Justice.
Q Did you maintain your independence as far as Himmler was concerned?
A My inner independence, of course, I maintained it against Himmler; contrary to the assumption of the prosecution, I did not sell my soul to Himmler -- not a bit of it. I believe that that has become very clear because in the church question I always frankly stated my point of view in '42.
Q A basic problem for the SS was the racial question. Were you forced to make any concessions to Himmler, as far as that was concerned?
A No, Himmler never asked any favors or concessions from me; particularly about the racial question, he never spoke a word to me.
Q Perhaps you can briefly tell the court what your attitude was concerning the Jewish question in practice?
AAfter 1933, and that is what counts here, and also after I had become honorary leader of the SS, in dealing with Jews I acted just the same as I had acted before. Jews whom I knew were those I continued to be in contact with, at least I tried to help where it was possible for me to help. Also in my official capacity, I tried to counteract hardships wherever that was possible.
Q In your official function, did you have any opportunity to handle demands made by Himmler or his Ss officers, and in what manner did that come about?
A Yes, I had such an opportunity. I had many opportunities of that kind, because as I have hoard here, the way it was before I came to the Reich Ministry of Justice, it was also after that time. We were, I may say, almost continuously confronted with some demands made by the SS, but I did not actually fill a single one of these demands -- at least, I cannot remember any one. Of course I considered it important not to be on bad terms with people whom I happened to know, but as far as the matters themselves wore concerned, I retained my point of view. I could mention quite a number of examples on that.
Q The prosecution in Document, Exhibit 426, submitted a letter which shows that you were invited to visit Himmler. Will you kindly comment on that letter?
AA few days ago I was charged to take over Department VI of the Reich Ministry of Justice, Thierack told me that he wants me to go and visit Himmler in his field headquarters. I told him that I did not see any urgent necessity for that. He told me that it seemed to him it was right if I would inform Himmler personally about the fact that I had entered the Ministry of Justice and about my sphere of work there. I told Thierack that I couldn't do a thing like that, even if I I had no actual objections, because I wasn't on such good terms with Himmler that I could gain admission so easily.
A short time later, I received the information from one of the personal referents of the Minister, which is mentioned in the letter, Exhibit 426, that upon the direction of the Minister I was to find out the date when I would be able to go and see Himmler. That was the purpose of my letter.
Q Did you writs to Himmler in your official function or as an SS Oberfuehrer?
A I wrote in my official capacity. That can be seen from the letter. Moreover, I was not at all an SS-Oberfuehrer, but an SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer, or SS-Sturmfuehrer, or something. That was a very subordinate rank.
Q Did that visit actually take place, and what was talked about?
A: As far as I remember, it came to that visit in March of 1943; that was at the time when I already became Ministerial Director. The conference lasted only a very short time because Himmler was very busy and I had to return to Berlin the next day. Primarily, however, that conversation dealt with my experiences as a battalion commander and regimental commander in combat. Only quite aside we discussed my position and my activity, my present work, and that finished the visit.
Q: Did you wear the SS uniform on the occasion of that visit?
A: No, I didn't possess one.
Q: Did Himmler give you any special mission for your work in the Reich Ministry of Justice on the occasion of that visit?
A: No, that was quite out of the question; nothing was mentioned about anything like that.
Q: In Document, Exhibit 426,, which is NG-703, a number of letters are also submitted, correspondence between you and higher SS leaders. First there is your letter to SS Gruppenfuehrer Berger of the 3rd June, 1943, pages 8 and 9 of the document. Would you comment on that letter, please.
A: Berger was a chief of the SS main office, SS Hauptamt. He did not know me personally, although I was assigned to the staff of the SS Hauptamt, SS main office, I think, since 1938, as far as the roster was concerned. In order to meet me, one day he asked me to come and see him. That was the only visit with Berger. We neither discussed political matters nor SS matters, but we talked about general subjects. We particularly came to speak about the Reichsgerichtsrat Dr. Niethammer, who lived in retirement in Leipzig and who came from the same town as Berger.
Berger asked me if I came up to Leipzig again to bring regards to Dr. Niethammer. I did so subsequently when I came to Leipzig to visit relatives, and I found there a letter of congratulations from Berger to me on the occasion of my promotion to SS Standartenfuehrer, and the Totenkopfring decoration, the death head ring. I thanked Berger for that letter and at the same time told him that I bad transmitte his regards to Dr. Niethammer. This letter is written in a language which was in accordance with the expressions used at that time and I ask you not to forget that I had just come from combat; returned from combat as a soldier; I had no reason to be unfriendly when writing to Berger on something like that.
Q: The letter shows, as you say, that Himmler had given you the totenkopfring, the death head ring.Is that a decoration?
A: No, in the letter addressed to Berger, and possibly also in the letter to Himmler, but I don't remember it I may have spoken of a decoration myself; I may have called it a decoration, but, in fact this is the way it was. That ring as a rule was conferred upon a member after three year's of membership to the leadership of the SS, whereas I received it after twice that time. I did not have any right to expect any decoration because I had no merits for the SS.
Q: Did you correspond further with Berger?
A: I cannot tell you that with certainty any more. It is possible, however; my position in the Reich Ministry of Justice brought it about and I believe it was always like that, that in various legal matters I received letters from people who happened to know me and who asked me to examine their legal matters.
Such letters, of course, were also received from the circles of the SS, that is from people who happened to know me. These letters also, just as the applications made by people whom I did not know, were dealt with, were reexamined by the departments who handled such cases, and then a decision was prepared. I did that either personally upon the suggestion made by the referent, or the sub--department chief, or the referent himself. I believe that I remember that Berger also applied to me in such legal matters in writing, but it is possible that one of his assistants wrote it. I don't know that any longer. I believe also that i can remember that my decision was in the negative, but otherwise, I had no relations to Berger.
Q: Witness, in this document reference is made to your correspondence with Professor Dr. Gebhardt. Did you happen to know Dr. Gebhardt personally?
A: Gebhardt, as well as Himmler, comes from my home town of Landshut. I knew him from there, but neither with him did there exist any personal relations. My family, however, my relatives, however, owed him special gratitude because he had been the doctor for my late father and had assisted him during his many years of suffering. That is why in the letter of congratulations which I addressed to Dr. Gebhardt that I addressed him as friend of our family, and I could do so. The correspondence which I had with Dr. Gebhardt concerns the Hamburg Professor, Dr. Dettwitz; it further shows that I was able to distinguish between the matters of the case.
A: Beyond that did you have any corresponsence with other higher SS loaders?
A: I cannot exclude the possibility, but the same applies here that I have said before.
Moreover, I have no objection, no misgivings against correspondence of that sort. The best proof can be found in the fact that these letters arc in existence and could be submitted to the Prosecution.
THE PRESIDENT: You are referring to letters you wrote; you are referring to the letters that you wrote, are you not?
A: They are letters which I wrote.
THE PRESIDENT: Then, they were not in your possession?
A: Well, of course they were in my possession; they belonged to my official files.
BY DR. ORTH:
Q: Witness, wasn't it a question of copies which were found in your belongings?
A: What was submitted by the Prosecution were the copies sent out.
THE PRESIDENT: I see; go ahead.
Q: Among the documents submitted by the Prosecution, there is a letter which requires a little explanation. You are thanking in this letter for a candle which you received -- "Jul Chandelier, but you regretted that you could not accept that chandelier. Will you comment on that?
A: At that time I did not know how to handle the matter, and I did not know that that "Jul Chandelier" could be bought, and I received that candle, which I might say at that time was quite precious because there was a scarcity in the Reich, but I was afraid I had received it by mistake, and I wanted to correct that error.
Q: The Prosecution charges you with having known about the crimes of the SS which led to its being declared a criminal organization by the IMP? , and that after the 1/9/1939 just the same you maintained your honorary rank in the SS.
The witness Behl testified in this connection that the illtreatment in the concentration camps even before the war, but certainly after the outbreak of the war, were known to every official in the Ministry and beyond that, to every person, every one in the population. What can you say about that, as far as you are concerned?
A: I don't know from where the witness Behl derives such extensive knowledge about that fact of knowledge, any rate, until the outbreak of war I only knew about the concentration camp Dachau; it was known to me that political opponents of the Third Reich were kept there in protective custody. Of any ill-treatment, I did not know; I did not know anything about that; neither from the circle of my colleagues in Leipzig nor from the population in Leipzig did I over hear anything by way of any hints about that. Later, during the war and I believe it was from notices in the newspapers, I heard of further concentration camps at Oranienburg and Buchenwald, but about ill-treatment, or even murders, killings, or extermination in large numbers of human beings, I did not hear a single word. I myself never saw a concentration camp, not even from afar; and in particular, until the surrender, I never got in touch with any person who either on the oasis of his own experiences or by information received from somebody else had known anything about concentration camps. Otherwise, one would have told me.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will recess until 1:30.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours, 16 September 1947).
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 16 September 1947) JOSEF ALSTOETTER - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION- Continued.
BY DR. ORTH (Attorney for the Defendant Alstoetter)
TIE PRESIDENT: You may proceed.
Q. Witness, during your service with the Wehrmacht, you spent many months on the Eastern front. Did you not at that time hear of the crimes which the SS committed in the Eastern territories?
A. No; nor did my unit ever have anything to do with such crimes. My unit had nothing to do with other units where such crimes occurred. From the sphere of the division to which I belonged, I am sure I would have heard if they had known anything of such crimes, and I never heard anything about them.
Q. When in 1943 you went to Berlin, did you not have an opportunity to hear in some way of the atrocities of the SS?
A, I didn't have the opportunity. The idea never occurred to me, for in the house in which I lived, until it was destroyed in November, 1943, there lived Jewish families until that very moment. They were families whom I saw by chance in the air raid shelter; I didn't know them. Furthermore, at the end of 1943 or the beginning of 1944 in my professional capacity, that is to say in the Reich Ministry of Justice, through an official letter from the Reich Accommodations Commissar, I heard that the Jews in Vienna who were violating the existing laws by the Gauleiter of Vienna, had been concentrated in ghetto inside Vienna proper, and the Reich Accommodations Commissar suggested that we should legalize that situation, and I should like to point out that we refused to do so. In 1944, through that letter from the chief of the security Police, I heard that letter was written in Ma.y, 1944, I heard that for reasons of security , the Jews of Vienna had been sent to Theresienstadt or had been moved further to the East. At that time I had no doubts pud my staff had no doubts author that that was merely a campaign against some of those Jews of Vienna.
At that time we even thought that that campaign was directed against a fairly large number of Jews, but we did think the matter only concerned individual Jews because we assumed that difficulties had occurred in Vienna, because after all there were very many Jews living in Vienna, and we realized that the Jews could not be the friends of the Third Reich; but that all Jews, or very nearly all Jews were to be deported, or had already been deported, of that we had no knowledge, and we certainly did not assume that on the basis of the letter, because at our special request the police had told us that they were willing to procure those witnesses who in our view were required. Therefore, it was obvious that those people were alive and that they existed. For the rest, the police and the SS, I would never have mentioned in the same breath that the SS as such had something to do with the deportation of Jews. I am referring to the general SS, that is the SS to which I am referring at the moment; that I don't know until now, as far as I know, one can only gather from the IMT verdict and it was the Gestapo which must be charged with carrying out of those deportations.
Q. The witness Behl testified that a high ranking official of the Reich Ministry of Justice, even if he came to Berlin only in October, 1943, must have heard of the incidents in the concentration camps -unless he lived like a hermit. What do you have to say to that?
A. I have already indicated that the same is true of Berlin that was true in Leipzig for me, but that testimony by Behl neglected mainly, to tell you briefly, hew in that most difficult time of the war I lived in Berlin, I may say without exaggeration that I lived almost like a commit. I lived all by myself in a furnished room, and the other tenants have not there. I had to take care of myself. All day I was in my office until late in the evening, sometimes it was nine or nine--thirty when I left. In August 1943, the department was evacuated and I was always going on trips to Boehnisch-Laipa where my department was, and I had to go on many official trips.
In November 1943 during an air raid, my apartment was completely destroyed, and afterwards whenever I was in Berlin I stayed in a hotel -- every time I went to a different hotel. Only from February, 1944, did I find another furnished apartment. May be it was two nights a week that I stayed at that apartment. The rest of the time I was away from Berlin. I never met anybody and therefore I had no opportunity to hear of those misdeeds; and I should like to say that I detest those deeds just as much as any other human being. For the rest, I should like to point out that the witness Behl in his testimony, unless I am wrong, said that for a long time he had worked with the police president's office in Berlin. Furthermore, he said that he was one of the most determined opponents of the regimes he also said that even with the police president, that is to say at the very source, if I may call it that, officially or otherwise, he heard nothing about concentration camp atrocities, if I may call them that.
Q. Witness, the Prosecution , however, maintains that you, as a department head at the Reich Ministry of Justice could not have remained in ignorance of the preparations made for the deportation of Jews, Poles, Russians, Gypsies and a.social delements from the ordinary prisons to concentration camps; that you could not have remained in ignorance of other measures taken by the SS either. Would you please comment briefly on that?
A. As to what is understood by other measures taken by the SS of which I should have heard as a department head at the Reich Ministry of Justice, I don't know what they are supposed to be. At the Reich Ministry of Justice I did not hear of any measures which justified and conclusion to be drawn that criminal acts were being committed. I did not hear of such acts on the part of the Reich Ministry of Justice or on the part of the SS. Of the many things which have been discussed at this trial, in particular, as concerns the transfers to the police and the great difficulties which prior to 1943 existed in the Reich Ministry of Justice in its relations with the SS, I heard only at this trial here.
The transfers which the Prosecution has mentioned, the transfers of the criminals who belonged to certain races, and of asocial elements, to the concentration camps in no way were the concern of my department. Therefore, I did not hear anything about them at all. Those matters were kept so secret that even a department head of a different department heard nothing about them. After I had been in the Reich Ministry of Justice for some considerable time, I heard for the first time that Herr Engert was working there, too. I made inquiries as to what Herr Engert's job was. I was told that he had a special mission, and that it was a secret mission. When I asked why, I was told that he was dealing with secret armament plans, and that is why his mission was being kept a secret. Therefore, I did not make any further inquiries. Of his assistants I met (ministerialrat) Ministerial counselor Huuperschwiller, in November 1944; that was when he came to talk to me. The other assistant, Herr Meyer, I have never net. I don't know him even by sight. I asked Herr Hupperschwiller at the time where he was working and he told me that he was working in Department IV. As for the work he did for the sphere of work of Herr Engert, he didn't tell me anything about that. As concerns the contents of the conferences held between Thierack and Himmler in September 1942, apart from what I have told you here about it, I heard nothing about it until the very end. It was only here, in Nurnberg, that I heard of it, and here, in Nurnberg, it was also that I heard for the first time of that extermination letter which Thierack wrote to Bormann in October, 1942. Secret matters were handled with such top secrecy at the Reich Ministry of Justice, and probably at other Ministries, too -- any way I must assume that they were -- that beyond the circle of persons who dealt with it, nobody ever heard anything about them unless one was one of those people who tried to get some information everywhere -- perhaps some of those sort of snoopers heard something about it, but it wasn't my business to snoop.
It isn't true, and I have to protest again that it isn't true as the Prosecution assumes, that I knew of Himmler's so-called program and that I was very well acquainted with it and that I had anything to do with the carrying out of that program.
Court No. III, Case No. III.
Q. The Prosecution in submitting Exhibit 451 says that Himmler during the conference at Kochem informed the leaders of the administration of justice about his criminal plans, is that true?
A. No, Himmler never touched upon that question at Kochem, and I think it is obvious. He didn't know of whom the committee to whom he was talking was composed, and Himmler would have been the last person to tell his secret plans publicly, to people he didn't know about.
Q. Now my last question, witness, and I am referring to the 15th decree concerning the Reich Citizenship Law. In spite of that decree were the Courts able to interpret the law of inheritance so that it held in favor of a Jew?
A. Yes, in my opinion they could.
DR. ORTH: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any other direct examination? It appears that there is none. You may cross-examine.
Dr. Orth would you indicate for us please - have you any other witnesses?
DR. ORBH: No, Your Honor, I have no witnesses.
THE PRESIDENT: Only documents?
DR. ORTH: Yes.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. LAFOLLETTE:
Q. No you remember when Kaltenbrunner became head of the RSHA?
A. According to my memory that was in February 1943.
Q. And he was made head at the suggestion of Himmler, was he not?
A. I don't know, but I assume so.
Q. And had you lived near Kaltenbrunner in your youth?
A. No.
Q. You had written him in July of 1944, thanking him for a letter to you of the 5th of July 1944. Is you recall that correspondence? Let me -
A. Yes, I remember that correspondence. I met Kaltenbrunner in June 1944 on an official trip, and it was in the sleeper that we were introduced to each other. At that time a former schoolmate of mine - by the way he was a Catholic Priest -- had jest sent me a letter, and in that letter he asked me to do something with the police on behalf of his brother-in-law who was somewhere in the last as a Kriminalrat, and who for reasons of health, would like to get back home. I used that opportunity to ask Kaltenbrunner to be allowed to report to him on that matter, and he allowed ue to tell him about it. I then wrote a letter to Kaltenorunner in connection with that matter, and Kaltenorunner later told me that because he himself was not competent to deal with it he had transferred the matter to the Chief of the Police, I can't remember the name of the man. Anyway he passed it on to him.
Q. And then you wrote him on the 18th of July and said that State Secretary Klemm would participate during his absence at the conference concerning transmittal of information by the police to the civil courts. Did you ask him to send information from the police to the civil courts in that conversation that you had and the letters you wrote him?
A. Yes, in all probability I wrote that letter, but at the moment I cannot recall what that letter was concerned with, as far as particulars are concerned.
Q. It was concerned with the transmission of information by the police to the civil courts. That is correct, isn't it?
A. No, no.
Q. Will you read that letter? Isn't that what it says?
A. Do you want me to read it out?
Q. If you would please?
A. Obergruppenfuehrer: Thank you for your letter of the 5th of July 1944, and I should like mo inform you that on account of the fact that I have to stay away from Berlin on official duties for sometime, Under Secretary of State, Klemm, till attend the conference concerning information to be given by the police to the civil courts.
Q. And would you read the name and signature, the way in which you signed this letter, please?
A. On the basis of the ties of comradeship, Heil Hitler, yours most devotedly, signed Altstoetter.
Q. Then it did concern the matter of transmitting police information to the civil courts, didn't it?
A. If I remember correctly, quite a different question was under discussion here. The question under discussion was whether and through what channels the civil courts for the purpose of their forensic work, could obtain information from the police. In civil cases there occurred a number of things where police questions were of interest. In particular at that time the so-called Haftungsprozesse, arrest proceedings, against the Reich and neglect of official duty committed by members of the police were on the increase, and it was obvious that in this connection some police agency had to be appointed which was competent for the investigation of the facts of the case which were at the bottom of such events, and which was meant to be competent. I believe that letter was concerned with this particular problem.
Q. Thank you very much. The Prosecution offers Document NG-1976, as Prosecution Exhibit 585. May I ask you.
Did you have a regular habit of writing to people you had known less than a month as "in soldierly comradeship" and "yours most devotely", did you do that to each one you met on such short notice?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, well than is a custom which today is rather embarrassing. All I can say is I attached importance, from the point of view of the interest of my office, to having pleasant relations with the people whom I met.
THE PRESIDENT: The exhibit is received.
BY MR. LAFOLLETTE:
Q. I hand you document NG 2162, which is a letter from Kaltenbrunner to you dated the 4th of December 1944. What was the occasion for you congratulating Kaltenbrunner?
A. I can't recall the occasion. Maybe he had just been awarded the Knight's Cross out I can't tell you for certain.
Q. The Prosecution offers Document NG 2162 as Prosecution Exhibit 586.
THE PRESIDENT: The exhibit is received.
BY MR. LAFOLLETTE:
Q. Did you have any knowledge of the duties which Kaltenbrunner was carrying out at the time you had this correspondence with him?
A. I knew that Kaltenbrunner was the head of the RSHA.
Q. And did you have any idea of the activities of the RSHA, what their work was?
A. Yes, I knew that the heads of the political police were sitting there and that the heads of the regular police were also sitting there. Furthermore, I knew from the letterheads that Kaltenbrunner was also the Cheif of the SD. The police tasks which fell within the scope of those groups were dealt with there.
Q. Now I notice in the Prosecution Exhibit 421, which is NG 748, that you list under SS Insignia that you were the recipient of or authorized to wear the "Blood Badge. Will you describe what the Blood Badge was?
A. I am surprised to hear that, that is supposed to have been mentioned there. The Bolld Badge was an award which was awarded by the Party in recognition of the participation in the march to the Feldherrnhalle on the 8th of November 1923.
Q. That was for services rendered in November, 1923. Was that the date of the Hitler Putsch in Munich?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. What organization were you a member of at the time of the Hitler Putsch?
A. Until the 9th of November I belonged to the 7th District of the Inhabitants Home Guard in Munich.
Q. Did you participate against the Putsch or with the forces who were attempting to bring about the Putshh?
A. I did not participate in the Putsch in anyway.
Q. But isn't the Blood Badge only awarded for people who participated in the Putsch?
A. The bind Badge was never awarded to me.
Q. Well is the report of your activities in NG 748, which is Exhibit 421, in error?
A. May I see that? I can't remember it.
Q. I can only offer it to you in English. I am sorry. Would that help? Or perhaps we can get the exhibit, Exhibit 421, we could send for it.
A. May I say this: It seems to me that this list contains merely all of the avialable awards which could be awarded to members of the Party or the SS, out it does not refer to the actual number of badges awarded to the individual members. For example, the Coburg insignia is mentioned here.
Q. Well, did you obtain that?
A. No, and it even mentions the Hitler Youth Insignia in gold and I never possessed that either, because my youthful days were passed by that time.
Q. There is a list there of your promotions in rank in the SS. Is that accurate? Can you tell from the English there whether that is accurate?
A. Well, I should like to point out the following: The list is correct, but one cannot tell from this list tnat the promotions from Sturmbannfuehrer onward were all made all at once in the spring of 1943, with the exception of the promotion to Oberfuehrer. To that rank I was promoted only in June 1944.
Q. And that is a correct date it states there in that translation of the exhibit you have?
A. My promotions were anti-dated to those dates.
Q. But the one as Oberfuehrer is correct?
A. Yes, yes it is.
Q. All right, now then also you did receive the Totenkopfring, did you not?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. And that was an insignia that the Totenkopfverbaende were entitled to wear, was it not?
A. No, that was a ring which the SS leaders received, after having been SS leaders for three years. That ring had nothing to do with the death head unit, (Totenkopfverbaende). The death head was, perhaps I may call it, a general symbol of the SS, which, for example, was worn also on the caps of the General SS and I believe that the Waffen SS wore it, too.
Q. Now, may I ask you, as a member of the SS, if the death head or skull was the general insignia of the SS, did tnat nave no significance to you as to the activities or purposes of the SS?