Q: Judge Buhl, were you in Hamburg immediately after the events of the 9th and 10th of November 1938?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you personally observe the extend of the damage done to Jewish enterprises, shops, and stores in Hamburg following the attacks at the time?
A: Yes. On that day I went through the inner city of Hamburg and partly through Altona. At that time I saw extensive destruction of Jewish stores and businesses in the inner city. The excitement and rage of the population was, in part, very large, because, senselessly, many things were destroyed and some were thrown into the canal, and in some cases things of great value had been destroyed. If I remember correctly, the stores were marked with insignia applied with red paint. They were all more or less destroyed; window panes were broken and the stores were robbed.
Q: Let me ask you, Judge Buhl, did you see, on your trip through the city, as you recollect now, any Jewish shop or store that was not damaged?
A: As far as those stores which were marked were concerned, they were destroyed or the window panes were broken and the stores were robbed. In any case, if there was my store that was especially marked that was not robbed or damaged, I did not notice that on this walk, and I should have noticed it because that was the very purpose for which I was going through the city in order to look the thing over.
Q: You were In the Hamburg system of Justice in 1933. Do you recall what Dr. Rothenberger's action was concerning the Jews, beginning in 1933, who were employed in the Administration of Justice there?
A. Yes, As far as full Jews were concerned, as far as I remember, they were at that time not dismissed but pensioned; except for one gentleman whom I remember ---that was Herr Valentin, who at that time remained in office. Whether any other people remained in office, I cannot state with certainly at the moment. But I know that a number of Jewish judges and prosecutors were during the first days at that time discharged; that is to say, not discharged without receiving a pension but discharged and received their pension.
Q. As far as you know, was Rothenberger responsible for these discharges at that time?
A. Yes. He was, after all, the Chief of the Administration of Justice, and he undertook these discharged.
Q. How long did the discharge Kews continue to receive their pension, if you know?
A. A number of years; in any case. later on, the law for this restitution of professional civil service was issued which also contained some rules governing the problem. And whether that was before the war or only during the war when the payment of these pensions was discontinued---I cannot state, because I did not have an special interest in that problem. In any case, for a number of years these pensions were paid, partly they were also transferred to foreign countries. I know for example, one prosecutor, Dr. Stein who went to Italy at that time, who received his pension in Italy. It was sent to him there.
Q. The Prosecution has no more questions to direct to this witness.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. WANDSCHNEIDER:
Q. May I begin the cross examination of this witness? Witness, you know the defendant Dr. Rothenberger from the time before 1933?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Were you together with him in the Hamburg Administration of Justice?
A. At that time, I was Government Councillor in the Administration of Justice, and Dr. Rothenberger was Senior Government Councillor. Our office were next to each other.
Q. What position did you have at the time and what position did Fr. Rothenberger hold?
A. Dr. Rothenberger was Senior Government Councillor, and worked on civil cases; and I was Government Councillor and worked on penal and prison matters, and later clemency questions.
Q. Dr. Rothenberger was working in civil questions at the time?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. After the seizure of power in 1933, Dr Rothenberger became Chief of the Administration of Justice, and in answer to the prosecutor's question, you described the conditions after 1933. I shall go to the main point right away: that is the concentration camp Fuhsbuettel---or, that is to say, the police prison. Was the concept "concentration camp" a definite concentration camp at that time, or was it called the police prison?
A. The actual concept "concentration camp" originated only lately on, as far as I remember. At first, it was called only "police prison" or concentration camp" because the abbreviation was Koltu.
Q. You remember that Kommando Z.B.V. took over these police arrests. Is it correct in the rest of Germany and Hamburg, too that the revolution or transitory conditions from the point of power politics brought obscure conditions also, especially for the Administration of Justice, that all of us did not know how the Administration of Justice would develope, especially in view of the development of the Party itself?
A. The conditions were, of course, obscure, because withing the Party, as far as one could recognize it, the different movements were at work. Part of the still had the efforts to continue the so-called revolution. To that extent, the conditions were, at least at the beginning, still not clear, because one did not know which movement would suc ceed.
Q. Do you distinguish between a special activist revolutionary and a moderate revolutionary group? Since you are from Hamburg, and I am too, I would like to name the name of the deputy Gauleiter Henningsen. I would like to recall this name to your memory, and Gauleiter Kaufmann. Was Henningsen considered a man of this revolutionary activist group?
A. Henningsen was.
Q. has he generally considered a fanatic, a wild man?
A. I cannot make any details statements about this, because to the Party groups and the internal affairs of the Party, I had not contact with him at that time. I have no knowledge about these matters. I only know what I was told.
Q. Of course. How, you knew Dr. Rothenberger from the time of before 1933? Dr. Rothenberger was put into a development which, without exaggeration could be described as revolutionary. Was Dr. Rothenberger by nature a man who was willing to have order, objectivity, and moderate justice prevailing, and help it to succeed, from your personal knowledge of Dr. Rothenberger?
A. I, personally, had the impression that Dr. Rothenberger made efforts to have the aims, or let us say, his tasks executed to the effect that as far as possible he could maintain the concept of the old constitutional state, but in many points he did not succeed.
Q. Do you mean to say by this that the force of the conditions was stronger than Dr. Rothenberger's efforts in many cases?
A. I am unable to judge that. I also do not know to what extent Dr. Rothenberger personally took steps for or against it. In some cases in my opinion, he might have made stronger efforts in order not to let certain abuses arise.
Q. Witness, one of the main problems for National Socialism was without doubt the Jewish problem. Do you know that particularly because of their attitude on the Jewish problem, Party members got into great diffi culties if they even approached an attitude that might have been described as philo-semitic--pro-semitic, especially in Hamburg?
A. All right. May I now, in regard to Jewish and half-Jewish judges in Hamburg, cite some names to you in order to refresh your memory. Now, do you know half-Jewish judge, Dr. Rohwill?
A, Yes.
Q. Do you know District Court of Appeals judge Dr. Friedburg?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know District Court Judge Dr. Kaufmann?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know the full Jewish judge Walentin? You already mentioned him, as you have to answer "yes".
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know further Senate President Dr. Falk?
A. His name I know, yes.
Q. Do you know Local Court Judge Dr. Eraun?
A. Yes.
Q. And there are a number of other judges. Do you know that the majority of the half-Jewish judges, that is of mixed descent, until 1935 were kept in office by Dr. Rothenberger far beyond the time when he could have removed them if he would have given in to the pressure that was exerted by the Party?
A. I only spoke about the full Jews before.
Q. Yes, that is right. And it is correct that the half-Jewish judges were kept in office by Dr. Rothenberger and only dismissed later on?
A. I assume, on the basis of the Law for the Restitution of Professional Civil Servants.
Q. Yes, has that consider a courageous and sensible act, a humane act on the part of Dr. Rothenberger that he did that against, undoubtedly, pressure by the Party?
A. I cannot say anything definite about that because I do not know what extent the pressure was exerted by the Party in that respect at all.
Q. Witness, may I interrupt you? Of course, you cannot know this in regard to concrete cases. I am only speaking about the general pressure of the Party which was exerted in regard to the Jewish problem generally and you affirmed that.
A. That was directed first against full Jews. To what extent in other agencies and businesses, persons of mixed blood were dismissed too, I cannot answer. But in any case, it is correct that if Dr. Rothenberger would have been an anti-Semite, and logically he could, without doubt, have dismissed the half-Jews too, and nobody would have done anything about it if he had done so.
Q. In Hamburg loyal circles, was it regarded as very decent and humane and were people thankful for it that Rothenberger saw to it that the pensions were paid to foreign countries, and that he overcame foreign exchange difficulties to pay these pensions to judges in foreign countries? Did Dr. Rothenberger see to that?
A. That fact exists. I already emphasized it before, and that these gentlemen were dismissed at that time and received their pension was at that time something that was more a matter of course at that time than it is perhaps today, because pensioning people off--dismissing them as such--was a strong interference with the civil service privileges which those gentlemen had. Perhaps they might have been dismissed too without being paid a pension, and that it did not happen was appreciated generally.
Q. Furthermore, you said that Dr. Rothenberger felt that he was a Fuehrer personality. This can be interpreted as a Fuehrer--a leader in a specific National Socialist sense--and can it also be interpreted differently. How I want to ask you, quite independent of political situations, was Dr. Rothenberger an autocratic personality who very much quite independent of political conditions to give orders and to make decisions and to make plans?
A. Of course, it is very difficult to answer this question, because these two things are difficult to separate. Naturally, in accordance with this entire personality, Dr. Rothengergen was a person who was absolutely and autocrat and certainly governed and ruled, and the decisions were mostly made according to his own discretion, and therefore he was absolutely considered a leader of the Administration of Justice.
Q. I am asking you that because you know Dr. Rothenberger from the time before 1933, when the influence of the National Socialist Party could have not existed yet, and the point of question was to ask you whether on the basis of your knowledge of conditions before 1933, you considered Dr. Rothenberger an autocratic personality?
A. I can affirm that absolutely. I know, for example, that before 1933, Dr. Rothenberger was serving as Commissar for agencies, especially with the Board of Healt, and there he did not enjoy a very good reputation because he was very autocratic and saw to it that the services were reduced, and he executed that very dictatorially and autocratically.
Q. Was that as it was desired by the Bruening Cabinet at that time?
A. Absolutely.
Q. You then mentioned that Dr. Rothenberger exerted pressure on the judges to join the Party. That is a fact which is, without doubt, correct because he wanted that these judges should join the Party. Can you tell me anything about what motives were responsible for Dr. Rothenberger's wanting to have the judges and prosecutors in a party or in am affiliated organization of the Party?
A. It's very difficult to answer that question, because then first of all, one would have to speak about Dr. Rothenberger's personality in general and would have to be clear about this. If I may voice my conviction, I was of the opinion until the end, that basically, Dr. Rothenberger was no-one-hundred percent National Socialist of the purist sort, and therefore he made efforts to remove these difficulties which he probably had with the Party by these measures which he took, and therefore he was anxious to have the Hamburg Administration of Justice, especially exemplary in the National Socialist sense, at least to outsiders.
Perhaps he was guided by the point of view that through this outside forming of the Administration of Justice that he would be able to achieve a certain freedom for their processes within the Administration of Justice, and that must be appreciated absolutely in order to have certain tendencies avoided and not have them as strong as strong as they would otherwise have been.
Q. You were speaking about the conditions in Fuhsbuettel in 1933 and 1934. Do you know anything about abuses and bad incidents in 1941, '42, witness?
A. Concrete incidents? No.
Q. You only know them from the time about which you spoke?
A. That continued throughout all these years, of course, and that resulted in this terrible catastrophe of which millions of people became the victim.
Q. You mean during the war. But I am referring to the time before the war. Do you know from the time before the war, after Dr. Rothenberger assumed a prominent position in Hamburg, that he took steps against these persons who were the originators of these abuses in the SS, especially against the Schwarze Corps and other National Socialist publications?
A. To what extent Dr. Rothenberger took steps against these abuses , I do not know. What I charged him with, in my opinion, was not acting strongly enough against the first abuses in the prisons and the mistreatments, because that was the beginning of this horrible end that all of us experienced. On the other hand, I do know that against these attacks in the Schwarze Corps, in particular, he took even energetic steps. In any case, in his statements which he made to the judges, he expressed quite clearly that he disapproved this attitude of the Schwarze Corps, and he made efforts to eliminate their attacks at least against the Administration of Justice of Hamburg , and that he had made certain agreements in accordance with Gauleiter Kaufmann.
Q. A further question in that connection, witness. The incidents which the prosecutor put to you, we do not have to mention. They are mean and horrible, and you expressed that also. But seen as a whole, was Dr. Rothenberger a man who in his own mind affirmed and approved these conditions, or a man who wanted to take steps against them, but for weakness or other technical reasons did not do anything about it?
MR. KING: I want to alter an objection against that question because I don't think it's within the competency of this witness to know what Dr. Rothenberger's inner feelings were on this very highly moral question.
DR. WANDSCHNEIDER: May I say something about that, Your Honor, quite briefly. I would not have put that question unless ----. I put this question only because the witness knows Dr. Rothenberger very well. If it would have been a general question of an expert, I would not have put it. He knows him for years before the seizure of power, and I believe that the Tribunal will take that into consideration.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may answer.
DR. WANDSCHNEIDER: Thank you very much.
THE WITLESS: May I ask you then to repeat your question briefly?
BY DR. WANDSCHNEIDER:
Q. Yes, of course. I said, witness, that these incidents were horrible which the prosecutor told you of. There is no doubt about that. My very clear question was this: whether on the basis of your very exact knowledge of Dr. Rothenberger's personality, even from the time before, 1933, you are of the opinion whether Dr. Rothenberger disapproved of these conditions, as any decent human being, and only because of weakness or because of the revolutionary development or any other reasons could not take any steps against it because his position was not strong enough yet.
A. I am of the opinion that in his own mind, Dr. Rothenberger, just as all of us judges, at the time, as a closed group rejected these incidents -- disapproved of them -- because he is not a person of a character who approves of such matters; but that he didn't take any steps against these matters and let them go on, that is due to the fact that he did not have sufficient influence in the Party. On the other hand, he was anxious to keep his position at all costs, and due to this weakness, I would like to say he did not consider himself strong enough to take steps against these abuses which he, himself, disapproved of strongly.
Q. Did the fact that he wanted to keep his position -- are there very positive results of this as regards the administration of Justice in Hamburg -- and in particular, in comparison with the condition of other Gaus?
A. I cannot judge the conditions in other Gaus , but I can only say that attacks on the part of the Party, against the Administration of Justice in Hamburg, at least as far as we knew about them, appeared very seldom. That apparently was due to the good relationship of Dr. Rothenberger to Gauleiter Kaufmann.
Q. Did you ever see a board of the stuermer where Striecher's "Stuermer" was posted? Did you ever see that in Hamburg?
A. Yes, I did see them.
Q. When did you see them?
A. Of course, it's very difficult to answer that question. I remember having seen these show boxes, but for how long and from when, I don't know.
Q. You see, witness, you testified then - perhaps, you will remember if I tell you this: that after the seizure of power -- I don't know exactly when -- at Kaufmann's instigation posting the "Stuermer" in public was forbidden. Do you know anything about that?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Did you participate in a meeting in the investigating prison where Dr. Rothenberger gave a speech?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you state something briefly from your memory , witness, about what he said there? Did he speak energetically against the abuses which resulted from the interference of the Gestapo in the interest of the Administration of Justice?
A. As far as I renumber, it was concerned about the action "Schwarzes Corps." The Schwarze Corps had published considerable attacks and named the judges. After the Reich Ministry of Justice had corrected what they had said, they refused to publish these corrections and did not refrain from further aggressive attacks against the Administration of Justice, and to complain that allegedly it did not proceed strongly enough in accordance with the wishes of the National-Socialist Party. Against these attacks in the Schwarze Corps, Dr. Rothenberger at this meeting in the investigating prison objected to and spoke against it, and he stated that he himself was against these attacks by the Schwarze Corps. On the other hand, he made efforts in cooperation with Gauleiter Kaufmann to avert these attacks against the Hamburg Administration of Justice because the Gauleiter was absolutely of the same opinion as Dr. Rothenberger; namely, that these attacks should be disapproved and that the Gauleiter had ordered that the disapproving of legal acts in Hamburg would first be referred to the Gauleiter, so that he and Dr. Rothenberger could clear them up and thereby take the wind out of the sails.
Q. Witness, do you mean to say by that that later as Justice Senator and later as District Court of Appeals President Dr, Rothenberger exercised a very strong and extra-ordinary influence on Kaufmann so that he himself was considered one of the most moderate Gauleiter's in Germany?
A. The reputation of Gauleiter Kaufmann in Hamburg was not a bad one even in non-National Socialist circles, also he had a social attitude and he was not a fanatic. Now when Hamburg surrendered, he saved it from destruction in refusing to defend it to the last man. That Dr. Rothenberger and Gauleiter Kaufmann were very good friends was quite obvious. Neither of them tried to hide it, and in jurist meetings where Dr. Rothenberger was speaking, occasionally Dr. Kaufmann spoke, too, to them; and in the same manner and from the same point of view as Dr. Rothenberger.
Q. Do you recall that at this meeting in the investigating prison where he was speaking against the SS and the Schwarze Corps, Dr. Rothenberger with very notable and strong words concluded the speech; This "boil of puss" has to be removed in order to remove the abuses.
A. I remember that expression.
Q. Witness, to what political movements did you yourself belong in 1933?
A. Before 1933, I was a member of the Democratic, later the Deutsche Staatspartei.
Q. As a member of the Democratic Party, did you have difficulties of a political nature which were quite considerable after 1933; and which entered into your personal sphere?
A. Yes , in my residence -- I live in a cooperative settlement -where I was president of the board, and was removed from that position in 1933. And therefore there were considerable attacks from a political point of view as a consequence of that, even though I remained in my position as judge, even though my position as a judge was contested at that time. I know, for example, that the personnel referent, Dr. Ritter was anxious to see to it that I would be removed from office, but that in this case I can only suppose -- I don't know it for certain. But I assume that Dr. Rothenberger at that time decided in my favor and did not dismiss me, as his personnel referent had desired it. In the settlement where I was living, this political persecution went so far that people got up in meetings and said that they would not rest until I was dismissed from my position as judge, and then in accordance with my duty, I told the personnel referent, Dr. Letz, at that time about these incidents. Dr. Letz, after a further conference, then told me that Dr. Rothenberger had decided to keep me in my position as a judge, but that he did not have the power to protect me as a judge if I would not decide to move away from that community.
Therefore, it was suggested to me that I should move away from that community and I did so. Then Dr. Rothenberger wrote a letter to that community in which he forbade them to make any further attacks my person, and the result of that letter was then also that after I moved political attacks against me from those people ceased.
Court No. III, Case No. 3.
Q Did Dr. Rothenberger let you stay in your office as judge until 1945?
A Yes.
Q You were speaking of Dr. Rothenberger's assistant, Letz. Is that the same Letz who was chief of Division 1 later on in the Reich Ministry of Justice?
A Yes, he is.
Q This witness Letz is at least one of those officials who joined the SS at Dr. Rothenberger's suggestion. Is it known to you that Letz was an SS member?
A I know that before 1933 Dr. Letz was not a Nazi. At least I know that from all his remarks and the conferences and the attitude which he stated at that time. The more did it surprise me that then he was called into the Administration of Justice and then later joined the SS too. What motives were responsible for this or who caused him to do so, I do not know.
Q Was the attitude of Dr. Letz, as far as you knew it, in any way in accordance with the radical concepts of the SS or you state something different?
A No. On the contrary, in my opinion Dr. Letz was a man who never was a follower of the National Socialists in his own mind until the very end. During the war repeatedly I had meetings with Dr, Letz, conferences with him when he was working with the General Command in Hamburg as a captain and I was also in the Military Administration at the General Command in Hamburg. We had official business with each other repeatedly there and on those occasions we also had some political conversations. He knew my political attitude from the past and, therefore, he did not hide his political attitude toward me, either. During these conversations he made very derogatory remarks about National Socialism, especially in view of the entire legal development. He was very pessimistic.
The more did it surprise me that a few weeks later, after these Court.
No. III, Case No. 3.
conversations, that I had with Dr. Letz, he followed Dr. Rothenberger's call, who at that time became Undersecretary, to come to Berlin as Ministerial Director and he complied with this call. I must say that I was so surprised by that that I became suspicious that perhaps Dr. Letz was either not honest toward me in the conversations which he had with me - as one says he could speak one way and the other - or that he followed this call to Berlin without actually having the inner prerequisites in the National Socialist sense for Thierack's Ministry of Justice.
Q Witness, I spoke at that time with Letz because, just as you, I know him too. You know Letz for many years, fifteen years?
DR. WANDSCHNEIDER: I beg your pardon. This was a leading question.
THE PRESIDENT: Limit yourself to questions.
DR. WANDSCHNEIDER: Yes. I shall repeat the question.
BY DR. WANDSCHNEIDER:
Q For how long do you know Dr. Letz?
A Dr. Letz was local court judge as I was even before I entered the Administration of Justice, that is, toward the end of the twenties. From that time on, I know Dr. Letz.
Q Was he an honest and frank person, in your opinion?
MR. KING: One moment, please. Letz was not the subject of the direct examination. This has been the fourth question on Letz and I think it has gone quite beyond the scope.
THE PRESIDENT: The objection is sustained. He is not on trial.
BY DR. WANDSCHNEIDER:
Q You described the incidents of November, 1933, witness. Did you have any knowledge about the extent of the destruction of other cities?
A No. I know only about Hamburg.
Q Only about Hamburg. Well, where did you make you inquiries and make your feelings, in Hamburg, in November, 1938?
Court No. III, Case No. 3.
A I want in Hamburg over Jungfernstieg, Moenckebergstrasse, at least in the inner city and from there I want to Altona to the main station. In Altona I want there on foot -- that is a considerable distance -- together with a friend. Both of us were quite engaged and excited about this whole affair and for that reason we took that long walk and on that walk we made the findings which I described before.
Q Is it correct that the population was of the opinion that these incidents were provoked?
AAs far as I could form a judgment about the opinion of the population at that time, the population absolutely rejected these pogroms and thought they were horrible and under no conditions did the population doubt that this was a Goebbels' action which ha had instigated and staged on the basis of these Paris incidents in order to document the disappointment in that way in order to continue the Jewish problem.
Q Do you know whether any persons were hurt in the course of these excesses against the Jews?
A I don't know anything about that.
Q Thus you did not hear about it either that death or serious mistreatments occurred?
A No. This action occurred during the night, that is, at the time when the stores were not guarded and any Jewish persons could hardly have been present.
Q Yes. Thank you vary much. Witness, you were speaking about District Court Director Ruetter before. Was he a man who, as an old Party member, made efforts to discredit other people and in that way to make a position for himself in the Administration of Justice?
A I personally have to be somewhat careful in my judgment of Dr. Ruetter because I said already before that ha was my political opponent and made efforts to remove me from my office. Thus it might easily look as though I wanted to express my dislike of Dr. Ruetter in Court No. III, Case No. 3.some judgment of him and that is far from my intentions.
Q Please leave out of account any personal animosity that might exist and make a judgment as though you were Mr. X.
A I shall make efforts to do so. Dr. Ruetter was regarded as not a very able jurist but already before he had apparently been active in the Party and in spite of the prohibition he was a member of the Party and now he tried to exploit this so-called old fighter quality for his own personal interests and acted in a very non-professional way in order to express it somewhat mildly.
Q Is it correct that Dr. Rothenberger removed Dr. Ruetter very soon from Hamburg because he could not work together with him?
A That was not secret in the Administration of Justice that Dr. Ruetter could not work together with Dr. Rothenberger because Dr. Ruetter was not capable and, of course, Dr. Rothenberger, in regard to the business for which he had employed Dr. Ruetter, needed a more capable person than Dr. Ruetter. To what extent that was due to political differences I do not know because Dr. Ruetter was, after all an older Party fighter than Dr. Rothenberger and to what extent these political matters were of importance in that I cannot judge.
Q Witness, can you say that any old Party member was in Dr. Rothenberger 's entourage in the Administration of Justice or among the judges at the higher courts, that is, for example, at the District Court of Appeal?
A I know that during the first time Dr. Rothenberger called Dr. Schaefer into the Administration of Justice he was an old Party fighter.
Q May I interrupt you here? What kind of a personality was this Schaefer, in your opinion?
THE PRESIDENT: We want these characterizations of persons, whose names have been incidentally mentioned, exceedingly brief because they are not directly in issue here at all. You can characterize him in a few words if you are able.
A I cannot make any statement About Schaefer's personality anyhow Court No. III, Case No. 3.because I didn't know him well enough.
BY DR. WANDSCHNEIDER:
Q What personalities were among the presidents of the District Courts of Appeal from the political point of view? Were they old fighters?
AAmong the senate presidents of the District Court of Appeal there were, in my opinion, no old fighters at all because in the Administration of Justice altogether old fighters could hardly be, because until 1933 there was a strick prohibition, at least in Hamburg, against judges or civil servants being members of the NSDAP and I personally know that I, as expert for officials in medium grades, still at the beginning of 1933 had to remove an inspector of justice temporarily from his position because it came out that he had been a member of the NSDAP.
Q Witness, do you remember a Bammel Case which you had to decide as a judge?
A Yes, I do.
Q Can you describe to the Court what kind of a personality Bammel was?
MR. KING: I object to that.
DR. WANDSCHNEIDER: I withdraw that question.
BY DR. WANDSCHNEIDER:
Q A final question, witness. I submit a collection of documents to you and please look to see whether it is a copy from your files from the District Court of Appeals. I want to submit this document to you and I ask you to look at Paragraph 5 of this document.
A I do not know this document. From the signature of this document I can see that it was certified by one of my senior inspectors of justice at the District Court of Appeal, so that it is copies from former files of the District Court of Appeal and now it was certified by this Justiz Oberinspector as a true copy. But I do not know from what volume of the files this compendium is and, therefore, it is very Court No. III, Case No. 3.difficult for me to make any detailed Statements about this collection of documents because I do not have the entire files from which it was copies.
Q I shall describe this document more closely. I shall later offer it in a supplementary volume to my documents. Witness, can you state first of all quite generally only whether this is a collection of material regarding abuses which were caused in order to determine abuses that had been occasioned by the interference of the Gestapo?
A That is evident from the entire context. It concerns criticisms in the Stuermer and then later here in the Schwarze Corps, criticisms of measures taken by the Administration of Justice which are apparently laid down in this collection of documents and critically elucidated.
Q Is it correct, on the page before you, concretely, the jurisdiction of the court against Jews, if they were asked to evacuate the places they were renting was criticized?
MR. KING: I should like to inquire what page Judge Buhl is now looking at. Dr. Wandschneider seems to know, but as far as I know, the Prosecution, and the Bench has not been informed.
THE PRESIDENT: You may identify the page to which you refer.
BY DR. WANDSCHNEIDER:
Q What page is it, witness?
A The page is not listed here, not numbered here. That is Page 4 Roman Numeral I, but the pagination is not continuous and then Page 2 is shown to me here under Roman Numeral II. The others are not marked.
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess at that time until 1:30.