CROSS EXAMINATION CONTINUED BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q You just spoke of the Red Cross deliveries. When did they come through?
A I believe it was after the middle of 1942 and 1943.
Q From where did these deliveries come?
A They came from America, from Canada, from England, from Egypt, and also from the Middle East.
Q Were there any from Sweden?
A I believe so. I don't know for certain, but I believe so.
Q Do you know that just the German authorities were especially supporting these deliveries?
A I didn't know that, no.
Q Do you know that the German troops especially helped in bringing in the harvest for the Greek population?
A No, I knew the contrary.
Q What do you mean by the contrary? Was the help refused?
A I know of no such help.
Q Do you know, witness, that the Greek fisheries, with the help of the German troops, were made workable again?
A We Greeks didn't see any fish.
Q Are you married?
A Yes, indeed.
Q Do you have children?
A Yes.
Q How old are these children?
A I have a son 21.
Q Do you know that in Athens even though it was not German sovereign territory, children were fed by the army.
A I don't know of any such thing. All I know is that the children were receiving something from the Red Cross.
Q Do you really want to say under oath that you, as a man who was always active in Athens, that you never heard of the fact that German troops continually fed children?
A I know of no such thing. But I do know that Greek children would go near German messes and try to get some food, whereupon the food would be refused them. And, as a matter of fact, the big containers with the food would be emptied on the ground and gasoline poured on to that remaining food so that nobody could eat it.
Q Do you really want to testify to that under oath?
A Yes, I'm stating that under oath and I saw it with my own eyes.
Q You saw that with your own eyes?
A Yes, with my two eyes.
Q When and where?
AAt the station called Peloponessum -- Peloponnes in Athens.
Q Witness, don't you know anything about the fact other that the stocks captured by the German troops were made available to the Greek troops and to the Greek population?
A This is the first time I have heard about that.
Q You said yesterday that heavy penalties of imprisonment were ordered for a Greek having more food than was necessary for two or three days. How would you explain these threats of penalties?
A I don't understand the question.
Q How would you explain -- what reason would you assume for the fact that the German administration ordered imprisonment for Greeks who had food in possession for more than two or three days?
A I'm just giving my opinion on that. I imagine that they didn't want to have all the people going to the shops and buying all the foodstuffs that they could get a hold of. I believe that was the only reason. In order to stop that they threatened them with heavy penalties.
Q Then there was food to be brought, after all.
A There were very few things -- a very few things -- most of it in the blackmarket.
Q Wasn't this threat of punishment made in order to secure a just distribution of the foodstuffs?
A The entire approach of the Germans toward the Greeks makes me believe exactly the contrary -- the entire attitude and the entire policy.
Q And why was it prohibited to the population to get food from the country?
A I couldn't understand that. All I knew was that the people was going to die of starvation and was being sentenced to death by starvation.
Q But you just said that they were sentenced to a death of starvation.
A Of course.
Q Do you know anything about the fact that the German authorities combatted the blackmarket very strongly?
A No, I didn't know that.
Q In order to put another question at this point, who was responsible for the supply of foodstuffs in Athens -- German authorities or Italian authorities?
A The occupational forces.
Q I just asked you which of the occupying powers -- the Germans or the Italians?
A I would like to repeat my statement which I made before, namely that whatever was going on in Greece was done by the Germans. The Italians did not have too much importance. They were even less important than we were.
Q We want to pass to another point. Which political movements existed, at the time of the occupation, against the German and Italian occupied powers?
Q. We want to pass to another point. Which political movement existed at the time of the occupation against the German and Italian power?
A. During the entire period of the occupation, the entire Greek nation and every Greek, individually, was fighting for the liberation of his country.
Q. And which movements arose in that time?
A. You have the movement of active resistance which could be found in the mountains and the movement of passive resistance which would be found in the towns and villages.
Q. In which one were you active?
A. I was in the movement of Greece.
Q. You just said that there was an active and a passive movement. To which did you belong?
A. I was the Chief of Police and I believe, Mr. Counsel can understand very well in which of the two I was. I was in the both the active and the passive resistance.
Q. Now, witness, which movement existed. We want to stress the active one. You certainly will now that, as a police chief.
A. Certain military groups had developed which military groups were led by officers and which were under the direct orders of the Commander of the Middle East. There were the men in command were men like Zervas, like Psaros, and Sarafis and others.
Q. What other active movements were existing who resisted the German occupation?
A. Those are the only ones I know.
Q. Witness, haven't you ever heard anything? We heard very much of the EAM and the ELAS.
A. The EAM is a political group. The ELAS was a military unit which was being led by one of those officers.
Q. Did the EAM and the ELAS--did they fight the Zervas groups?
MR. DENNEY: If your Honor pleases, I don't see that his has any place in the cross examination all the inner ramifications there at that time.
MR. LATERNSER: May I say something to this? I would like to find out by asking these questions what the conditions at that time were in Greece, and it is absolutely necessary to find out what they were in order to be able to judge, in order to be able to understand the military measures which were taken by the occupying power. This is absolute, probative evidence matter. I ask that the question be admitted.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: I think that Dr. Laternser is going quite far afield in the matter of cross-examination. If you are trying to prove something affirmative for your own case, I don't think this is the proper time to do it.
DR. LATERNSER: Yes, your Honor, but this is it. The witness has testified to several measures by the military authorities. For example, he has spoken of shootings. The basis for these shootings arc the conditions at that time and the conditions at that time under which the occupying power undertook these measures. Therefore, it was special importance.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: We will let you proceed with that to a limited extent.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. I asked you whether these groups fought each other?
A. I don't know what the relationship was between those two groups but I do know that these were organizations of resistance or resistance movements against the Germans for the liberation of their country.
Q. What was the relationship between these two groups to each other? I mean the national resistance movement--Zervas and the other resistance movement, designated either ELAS or EAM.
MR. DENNEY: I thought the witness was testifying and said there were two kind of resistance groups those in the mountains and those in the cities and now Dr. Laternser is giving us some more advice on national groups and other kinds of the groups about which the witness has not testified. I object to the question.
DR. LATERNSER: I thought the question referred to what the witness has already said.
MR. DENNEY: He didn't characterize it that way. The witness said there were two kinds of groups. Now Dr. Laternser it trying to label the groups.
THE PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Will you restate the question, Dr. Laternser, in different form, please?
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. Witness, you just spoke of various resistance movements.
A. I didn't speak of two resistance movements. I spoke of two groups who were fighting against the Germans under the direction of officers because the resistance movement was one single movement of Greece.
Q. Witness, which resistance movements during the occupation fought the Germans and organized against the Germans?
A. It was a resistance movement as I told you before.
Q. But this resistance movement was not uniform was it?
A. Why, of course.
Q. Do you really want to say, witness, that this movement under Zervas was united with the movement of ELAS and EAM?
A. What I want to say is that these groups were all fighting against the German invader under the direction of officers who had been sent there by the Commanders in the Middle East.
Q. Witness, I had ask you whether these two movements which you have mentioned fought each other or were they united?
MR. DENNEY: If your Honor please, I submit he is arguing with the witness. He has answered the question. He has told them what kind of resistance there was and Dr. Laternser keeps trying to label two groups.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honor, it is very important what condition existed during the German occupation. I must be entitled to ask such questions.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: I think the objection should be sustained. Let me say, Dr. Laternser, that I think this cross-examination is getting very far afield from what he testified on direct examination.
I wish you would consider during the noon recess this fact that if you want develop facts concerning the situation in Greece that was not brought out on direct examination, you should make him your own witness and interrogate him. I think the Tribunal would permit you to do that but to allow you to continue to the extent you have on cross examination violates all the rules that I know anything about.
DR. LATERNSER: I shall give the Tribunal my opinion after the recess.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: We will recess until one-thirty.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
THE MARSHAL: The persons in the courtroom will be seated.
The Tribunal is again in session.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: You may proceed, Dr. Laternser.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Witness, shortly before the recess we were talking about the various resistance movements. In what way did these resistance movements act against the German Occupation force?
A The resistance movements were fighting the occupational German forces by doing all the things which any resistance movement would do in order to stop the enemy from its occupation.
Q You said in order to keep them for occupying the country? Greek was occupied.
A They were fighting for the liberation of Greece.
Q In doing this did they commit cruelties against the German troops?
A Not that I know of. All I know is that they were fighting against the German troops.
Q You don't know anything about cruelties or atrocities?
MR. DENNEY: Your Honor, I submit he is going pretty far in cross-examination here and he has testified, the witness on his question, he says he doesn't know anything about it and I submit he is bound by his answer.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Objection sustained.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Yesterday you mentioned the execution Kalavrita. What had been done previously to that against the German troops?
AAll I know is that a result of the guerilla operations. Three Germans columns started marching towards Kalavrita, they segregated men, women and children. All the men were executed while the women, and children were locked into a school house.
Q Witness, did not the partisans prior to that murder and main 78 German soldiers?
A I personally don't know that, but there is another witness here who will testify about Kalavrita and he undoubtedly should know more about it.
Q You only know then that in Kalavrita Greeks were shot?
A Yes indeed, and I personally visited both Kalavrita and (Selff) and the cemetery there and I saw first of all the ruins of Kalavrita and in the cemetery I saw the crosses for the people who had been killed.
Q On the occasion of your visit to Kalavrita, did you also talk to inhabitants or former inhabitants of Kalavrita?
AAll those I used to know, because I had visited Kalavrita on forty occasions, had been killed.
Q And did you not later talk to an inhabitant of Kalavrita?
A I spoke with women from Kalavrita.
Q Surely, you asked these women who came from Kalavrita what the reason for these shootings was.
A That was not the only town where Greek men had been killed
Q But, witness, if you talked with inhabitants of Kalavrita, about the happenings which occurred there, you surely asked them why these things had happened?
A The reason for the execution of these Greek citizens, men namely, was stated to be by the women of Kalavrita that Kalavrita was sheltering Greek guerillas. That is, they had been accused by the Germans of sheltering Greek guerillas.
Q And nothing was said by those women about the fact that the troops had been shot at in Kalavrita so that 78 German soldiers had been killed.
MR. DENNEY: He asked him that before and he told him he didn't hear anything about it. Now I think he has exhausted the subject.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Objection sustained.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honor, may I say something quite briefly to what the prosecution has just objected to? I am of course justified in cross-examination to change the statement of a witness and I have been successful in some cases, and if he said previously that the reasons which he has just given that they could not find out about these reasons, that the women told him that shootings took place because the inhabitants had supported the bands and now I am trying to ascertain whether the women did not tell him the troop marching through the village had been shot at by inhabitants. That is an important circumstance. I therefore ask if this question is admitted?
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: All right, we will let you ask that question.
BY DR. LATERNSER: Witness, did these women of Kalavrita tell you that the troops marching through the villages were shot at the villages so that 78 German soldiers were killed?
A You are asking me about shots as fired from the inside of Kalavrita?
Q I ask you about the German soldiers shot, which had been murdered by the population of Kalavrita.
A I don't know that; I have heard for the first time that German soldiers were fired at from Kalavrita, the reason being that if this had been the case the people that fired, at Kalavrita, on German soldiers, the German soldiers would have fired back, and there would have been no necessity to destroy the village.
Q You are a lawyer, aren't you?
A Yes.
Q And you know sufficiently about international law that if a troop is fired at from a village one may burn the village.
MR. DENNEY: If he is going to qualify the witness as an expert on international law I submit that he should take him over as his own and lay the proper foundation. I certainly object to this line of testimony.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Objection sustained.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Witness, who, among the various resistance movements, fought most strongly against the German occupational force?
A I don't know.
Q Most attacks against the German occupational forces were they not caused by Communists in force?
MR. DENNEY: He is now going so far beyond the scope of direct examination that I submit that he should be limited. There has been absolutely no testimony at all about Communists.
DR. LATERNSER: In every report that has been mentioned the Prosecution has assumed that the reason so many Communists have been shot is because of attacks against the German armed forces and for this reason I am justified in asking if he knew anything about that and knew anything about the Communists.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Sustained.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Witness, you said yesterday that the German troops had confiscated most of the hospitals and limited the Greek population to a very small part only?
MR. DENNEY: Dr. Laternser continues to expand the scope of this witness' testimony through all of Greece. I think it was very clearly brought out on direct examination that the man was in Athens all of the time and was only testifying with reference to Athens and I respectfully request the court that they direct him to limit himself to that and not to try to enlarge this to the whole Greek picture.
PRESIDING: I think that is quite true. I also think this witness is capable of drawing those distinctions. He is evidently an intelligent individual and we will permit him to answer the question.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q I repeat. Witness, when you said yesterday German troops had confiscated most of the hospitals and that the Greek population was limited to a small part, is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q Do you know the head of the Greek Ministry of Health, that is, Ministerial Director, Dr. Kopamarris?
A Kopamarrisis the name. Yes, I know him very well.
Q Did you ever talk to him about what the German troops did in the field of sanitation and health for Athens and Greece?
A No, I didn't.
Q But you said just now that you knew him very well and it would be quite natural one would talk about these matters.
MR. DENNEY: Now Dr. Laternser says he knew him well and then he asked if he talked to the man on the subject and he said no. Objection.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Objection sustained.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Don't you know that the entire rural population suffered because the doctors had fled into the cities, and were kept without cost by the German doctors whom they consulted and they were operated on by them. Did you ever hear that?
A I don't know that because I was living in Athens.
Q Now regarding Athens, don't you know that in Athens the civilian hospitals received their food and supplies from German stocks?
A No, I don't know that.
Q And you also don't know that the German Army gave medicines and bandages to the civilian hospitals?
AAll I know is that the Red Cross was doing those things. Unfortunately I know of no case where Germans had done such a thing because if they had I would have been very happy to tell the defense counsel about it.
Q Don't you know regarding the efforts of the German authorities to criticize malaria among the large populations?
A That is a question which is unknown to me. I was in Athens all the time and I didn't learn anything about it.
Q Have you heard anything about extensive drainage of swamps?
A No, I didn't hear anything about it.
Q You said yesterday also that the German authorities had cut off electric current at Athens. Why did that happen?
A The only reason was that they wanted to save electricity and simply use it for the purposes of the German occupational forces. They didn't care about the Greek people.
Q Witness, how long was Athens without electric current?
A The electricity would be on sometimes and then again it would be shut off, particularly during winter we didn't have any light at all.
Q And what was it like after the withdrawal of the German troops? Did you have light right away then?
A Yes, we did until shortly before they left but when they left they blew up all the electrical plants so of course we didn't have any light at all.
Q And for how long were you without light?
A I couldn't toll you exactly how long but it was for a long period of time.
Q You further said yesterday regarding this blocking off of various districts in Athens.
Whom were the authorities looking for in these actions?
A They weren't looking for anybody in particular when they carried out that blocking off of the roads and streets because if they were looking for somebody in particular they would either go and find him in his home or they would look for him where ever they thought he might be hiding; where they carried out this blocking off of the roads they would capture mostly civilians.
Q And in this connection you talked of a mysterious man wearing a black mask. Who was this man? What kind of man?
A I personally believe that the man wearing that black mask was a German soldier who pointed out civilians at random, you know, to find an excuse.
Q Why should he wear a black mask; I am telling you that it was probably a Greek.
A I am certain that it was not a Greek. Why should he be a Greek?
Q You are quite sure that he wasn't a Greek. Were you at the time Deputy President of Police in Athens?
A Yes, of course. I was staying in Athens.
Q Were you at that time Deputy Chief of Police?
A No, at the time I was the Chief of the Air Raid Precaution Service.
Q You then talked about concentration camps yesterday.
A Yes.
Q What do you understand by concentration camp?
A By that I mean a large space which contains large buildings and which has barbed wire fence around it. The people would be taken into that barbed wire enclosure and kept there for as long a period of time as the Germans desired.
Q In what kind of building was this so-called concentration camp?
A It was in Chaldari.
Q You said yesterday that it was a barracks?
A Yes, that is correct; they were barracks and I am saying the same thing today.
Q Which units were stationed in these barracks before the outbreak of war?
A It was a new barracks that had not been used as barracks as yet until six months before the beginning of the war, at which time Greek soldiers were billeted there, the Greek soldiers that were fighting Albania. 2052
Q Did you inspect those barracks closely at that time?
A No, I did not inspect the barracks. I had no reason whatsoever to do so. I had no right to do so.
Q Did you in the mean time have a good look at the court house here in Nurnberg?
A No, I didn't. I could have done it but I didn't.
Q You still want to say that the barracks there, in Athens, are the same size as this building here?
AAll I can say is, and I shall remain with my testimony, that the barracks, as I know the barracks, were almost as long according to their size and they could be compared to this court house building. In any case I didn't know Nurnberg before and those buildings could accommodate a whole brigade as barracks.
Q Witness, during the whole time of the occupation by the Germans you occupied office?
A Yes, I held those offices before the invasion and I remained at my post of course.
Q You must have collaborated quite well with the German Ministry Department?
MR. DENNEY: I submit that I object to Dr. Laternser suggesting to the witness that he collaborated with anybody. He certainly knows better than that.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER Sustained.
A I collaborated with those German officers so well to a certain extent that I don't know one single defendant and I would like to know if anyone of them knows me.
DR. LATERNSER: I have not further questions.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Any further questions by defense counsel.
BY DR. HINDEMITH (As deputy of Dr. Rauschenbach, attorney for the defendant Foertsch):
CROSS EXAMINATION
Q You said the German troops shortly after the entry confiscated all stocks and robbed warehouses. Is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q Would you explain that in detail? And how far the German Ministry Departments carried out this robbery as you call it?
MR. DENNEY: I certainly think this witness has covered that in his testimony all morning, and unless Dr. Hindemith has something new that he wants to bring out I object to his question on this line. I suggest he pass to something else.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: We permitted Dr. Laternser to go into detail on all these matters and unless there is something new there is no occasion for going into it again. We don't want to repeat this over and over. The objection is sustained.
BY DR. HINDEMITH:
Q Another question. You said that the situation as regards food for the Greek population was more and more difficult immediately after the entry of the German troops by reason of the confiscations. In the summer months it had been tolerable; from September 1941 onwards the situation had become tragic, and the situation had become especially difficult by the fact that an order had been issued according to which every kind of imports into Athens were forbidden. When was this order issued?
A The order was issued immediately after the Germans had entered Athens. The same applied to the order according to which not more food should be kept at home than was absolutely necessary.
DR. HINDEMITH: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further questions by defense counsel?
DR. MUELLER-TORGOW for General Felmy:
Q Witness, may I recall to you that the subject matter about which you were to testify and for which you have been called here is the activities of the German Occupation Forces in Greece, not in Athens from 1941 to 1945.
A I offered to testify about anything I know. I shall also testify, if you want me to, about things I heard and which things I ascertained personally about.
Q Witness, is it known to you that in Athens after the withdrawal the German troops, an American Embassy was opened?
A You mean after the liberation?
Q After the withdrawal of the German troops?
AAfter the liberation all legations were reinstated. We had the American legation, the British Legation, the French Legation and others.
Q From your official position which you occupied did you have any official connections with the American Legation?
A None whatsoever.
Q Is Mr. William Hardy McNeil known to you?
A You are talking about this Englishman? Yes, I heard his name but I don't know him personally.
Q Mr. Hardy McNeil is not an Englishman but he is an American. From November 1944 until June 1946 he was the deputy Military attache of the United States in Athens. Do you know this gentlemen?
A No, I don't know him because I had no dealings whatsoever with the American Legation, nor with any of the other Legations.
Q This Mr. McNeil has recently published a book with the title "The Greek Dilemma". May I ask the interpreter to read part of the book?
MR. DENNY: May your Honors please, I don't what we have to do with a book written by McNeil with the title of "The Greek Dilemma". He has asked the witness if he knows him, the witness says he doesn't knew him.
I object to this kind of questioning.
THE PRESIDENT: That's improper cross examination. Objection sustained.
Q The fact that the witness does not know this Mr. McNeil cannot be reason for not allowing me to submit part of this book to him on which I ask his opinion. In this circumstance the whether he knows him or not is quite irrelevant.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't think his opinion is relevant on this subject. Objection sustained.
Q Witness, you said yesterday the members of the Greek Police were shortly deprived of their arms shortly after the entry of the Germans.
A I didn't speak about weapons at all yesterday. When I was asked, however, if the policemen had any weapons, I answered "At the beginning of the occupation they did not, but later on they did have weapons, at the end of the occupation."
Q Did you not say yesterday that the weapons had been taken from them and they only had wooden sticks and at the time of the occupation were issued some weapons.
A No, I didn't say that. I was asked if the police had any weapons whereupon I said at the beginning of the occupation they did not have, and towards the end they did.
Q The end? Then may I draw your attention to Document Book 17, document NOKW -044, Exhibit 418. It says on page 62 of the German Document Book in a teletype message of a daily report of Military commanders of the 19 September 1943, under Greece it says:
"Greek police Pyraeus was armed with pistols in order to be able to combat Communistic terror groups." Do you maintain your statement, witness?
AAbsolutely. I said it quite clearly - that toward the end of occupation they received a few weapons.
Q Witness, the date this was issued is 19 September 1943. As far as I know the end of the occupation took place about 2 years later, 1 year later.
A The occupation lasted for 3½ years.
Q You call that the end of the time of occupation?
Witness, I have some further questions regarding what you told us about the food situation. First of all, you frequently talked about the black market in Athens. Was this extensive, this black market?
A Yes.
Q As Deputy Chief of Police of Athens what did you do against the black market in order to provide Greek population with food stuffs?
A Whatever measure a slave himself can take, a slave who is hungry. In order to fight the black market activities, I had to have something to eat myself, and I didn't.
Q Would you not rather have resigned from your office as Deputy Chief of Police, witness? Or was that what you previously termed passive resistance?
A. No, but in any case an order had been issued according to which we had no right to resign from our positions in the Police.
Q Who issued this order?
A That was an order issued by the Government of Tsolakoglou. I will spell the name. T S O L G L O U.
Q That was the official Greek government at that time?
A For me that was not the official Greek government. The official Greek government as far as I was concerned was that of the king, the king himself.
Q But you said just now that you had received orders from this government and that you had to carry these orders out and for this reason you had to remain at your Post?
A Yes, that's correct.