, etc., evidently in order to fight the same bands who already fought the Germans a few years ago.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Your Honors, if I recall Dr. Sauter correctly, he has asked this witness to remain in Nuernberg to make him his own witness. The prosecution strenuously objects that Dr. Sauter may ask him any questions if he wishes to cross examine him. This witness is here to testify only regarding the EDES organization, one of the Greek resistance movements during the occupation, and it is within the scope of that direct examination that Dr. Sauter may cross-examine him.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal still adheres to its prior ruling that the question asked of the witness should be sustained in that it is not cross examination.
As to the request that the witness be held here so that the defense may make use of this witness as its own witness, that is a privilege which it has. However, it seems to the Tribunal that the witness can be called out of order and the Tribunal will accept such a procedure during these proceedings and, while it is convenient for the witness to be here and to be accepted as a defense witness, and if the counsel for the defense wishes to follow that procedure the Tribunal will entertain such a motion and such an application.
The Tribunal will be in recess at this time until one-thirty this afternoon.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 16 August 1947)
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats. The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed, Dr. Sauter.
CONSTANTIONS TRIANDAPHYLIDIS-Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. I want to put some further questions to you and I would like to ask you this afternoon still under oath. Witness, you have told us that your soldiers had the order to keep strictly to the provisions of International Law.
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Do you know the name of the Swiss delegate of the International Red Cross in Epiros at the time that General Lanz was commander there?
A. Yes.
Q. What it the name?
A. Hanz Bickel was his name.
Q. Bickel, the Swiss Bickle. Witness, is it known to you that in February 1944 a column of the International Red Cross under the leadership of Mr. Bickle, a Swiss citizen, was attacked by troops of the partisans and that his column was completely plundered?
A. No.
Q. Is it known to you from what General Zervas has told you -- or did it become known to you in any other way that this Swiss Citizen Bickel, as well as General Lanz, reported this matter to General Zervas?
A. No.
Q. Witness, you said this morning the officers of the Zervas army had been held responsible to a very large extent for every action of their subordinates.
A. Absolutely.
Q. In this connection you told us about two soliers who were sen tenced to death for the maltreatment of prisoners of war and who were executed.
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. I would like you to tell me now what happened to the superior officers of these soldiers who were sentenced to death in order to make them responsible for the actions of their subordinates.
A. In spite the fact that these officers had given orders to their soldiers and instructions as how to conduct themselves, these soldiers had committed those mistakes and it was due to them that these officers were severely punished for not fulfilling their duty with respect to instructing their soldiers correctly.
Q. How many officers were punished for this case of the two soldiers who mistreated these prisoners of war?
A. I am pointing out that this applies to the officers; those officers, namely two officers, were punished, and these two officers were in charge of these men, and they were responsible for their actions directly responsible for their actions.
Q. What punishment did these officers receive?
A. They were tried; they were put in jail and the rank was taken away from them. They lost their rank and command.
Q. And what was the actual reason why these officers were sentenced? Did these officers participate in the mistreatment of the prisoners of war, or did they look on while these prisoners of war were being mistreated? Or in what constituted the mismanagement on the part of the officers?
A. If they had seen the incident, and if they had participated in the incident, both officers would have been placed before a firing squad. As a result of the fact, however, that they did not see this incident happen, and that they were not present in order to stop these men from doing so, -- due to the fact that they were not present and they could not enforce that order, -- these men received the punishment which I mentioned before, and not the death sentence, because the men were not in a position to see to it that their orders were followed.
Q. Witness, do you know when General Hubert Lanz came to Epiros?
A. According to the information we had at the time, he came in August 1943.
Q. How large were your national forces at that time, -- the armed forces of that organization?
A. At that time there were approximately 10,000 men in Epiros.
Q. Approximately 10,000 men in Epiros. Could you tell us approximately the size of the area of the Epiros? Just approximately.
A. I would say approximately 10,000; 10,000 or 12,000 square kilometers. It depends; the borders of Italy are not well drawn.
Q. Can you give us an estimate how large in your view were the forces which were at that time available to General Lanz?
A. During the first period when the German army first showed up, we estimated their strength to be between 4 to 5 thousand men. Later on, we figured that their total strength was approximately 10,000 men. That was a little bit later.
Q. What is your opinion today if I am telling you that at that time, namely in August and September, when General Lanz arrived in Epiros, his troops had an average strength of between 30,000 and 40,000 men?
A. Where was that?
Q. In Epiros, because we are not talking of America; we are talking of Epiros.
A. That is quite correct, but do you want to know the figures of what we estimated was being used against us in our sector? That period of time was a time when the struggle was going on for the occupation of the Ionian Islands by the Germans, and our operations were also going on near the border of Albania where we did not have any troops.
Q. Witness, I am not quite clear what you mean by your answer. I asked you whether, on the basis of the reliable and accurate information which you received from your sources of information, in your opinion at present, you think it probable that General Lanz had 30 to 40 thousand troops at his disposal in the Epiros at that time? That is my question, and this is the question I would like you to answer.
A. What we were interested in mainly was the number of troops used, or were to be used against us directly. Our spies wanted to find out those facts and that is the information they gave us.
Q. Witness, I don't want to deal any further, as apparently one cannot get a clear answer from you on this point. I want to ask you another question.
A. I gave you a very clear answer. I told you that we figured that approximately 10,000 men were moving against us. We, of course, undoubtedly knew that more troops were being used by the Germans at our two occupied Jannina Islands, and they were General Lanz' troops.
Q. I am not interested in the Jannina Islands here. We are still talking of the Epiros.
May I put another question to you? Witness, you told us today that General Lanz had repeated negotiations with General Zervas.
A. I didn't say exactly "repeated conferences or discussions". I gave you the exact date. I stated my point, namely that the first few times they had conferences, it was not from his part, but rather they were trying to reach an agreement, the Germans I mean; and it is only in the month of September 1944, at which time the Germans were leaving Greece that conferences took place, which conferences we can really call conferences where agreements were reached.
Court No. V, Case No. VII
Q. Witness, I am telling you now that this information you have just given us is untrue, and I would like to ask you to tell us whether it is not known to you that General Lanz from September 1943 onwards, until the fall of 1944, was engaged in constant conferences and negotiations with General Zervas through his officers. Please answer this question under oath.
A. I repeat under oath that they are lied.
Q. Do you know by whom these negotiations were initiated?
A. All I can repeat is that in October, 1943, General Lanz sent a delegation to Skiadales; and that in October 1943 the Germans sent a delegation to Skiadales which consisted of the Arch Bishop of the deputy of the Arch Bishop of Jannina, and of some representatives of the Red Cross, and also of the Mayor of Jannina. On the second occasion, the Germans sent the Arch Bishop of Arta, and the physician Konvorossos.
Q. Witness, according to your knowledge was the task, - according to your knowledge of these delegates of General Lanz, what did these delegates say about their orders?
A. They said that in case the attacks on the part of General Zervas' troops should not cease against the Germans, they would resort to drastic measures against the population, - civilian population.
Q. Witness, is it correct that these delegates proffered something quite different to General Zervas, namely, mutual trust. That is an agreement that both parties were to cease fighting, and I may mention it here, in order to spare the civilian population?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: I object to the question. He is bound by the answer of the witness.
PRESIDENT WENNERSTRUM: Overruled.
A. That is the way Mr. Defense counsel puts it. In reality, however, it is exactly so as I said, namely that if the attacks on the part of General Zervas' forces would not stop, then the civilian population would have to suffer under it. But I shall give you additional information, now Mr. Defense counsel, which you possibly did not think about.
Q. First of all, I would like you to answer this question more clearly. I maintain that General Lanz proposed to General Zervas that the troops of both parties should not fight against each other, because only the civilian population would suffer from this, and I am asking the witness whether that was the proposal of General Lanz?
A. Yes, he did, and that was followed by the operations against Ligiar where everybody was killed, on the 3rd of October, 1943.
Q. Witness, I am still concerned with the negotiations, and I am asking you is it correct that General Zervas declared to be in agreement in principle with what General Lanz proposed? I would like to add something else. Is it also correct that General Zervas also declared that he demanded as a counter-service from General Lanz, supplies of German arms and ammunition, because he, General Zervas, needed it for the national Greek resistance movement or insurgent movement against the Communists?
A. No.
Q. This condition was not advanced by General Zervas then?
A. No, that's not correct, because when this proposal was made, British mission officers were also present. Colonel Barnes was one of them, and Thomas Marinos. In any case, this was not the way it was put and they immediately sent the report to headquarters in the Middle East.
Q. Witness, I am putting it to you that these negotiations to which I am talking to you, - that British officers were not present at these conferences. Do you maintain your assertion, that the British officers also attended these negotiations?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Your Honors, I object to the question. I think Dr. Sauter is arguing with the witness.
PRESIDENT WENNERSTRUM: Overruled.
A. We have the numbers of the telegrams at out headquarters files in the Middle East.
Q. Witness, we are not talking about figures now, and telegrams. Rather you maintained that at that time, British officers attended those negotiations, and I asked you--
A. The British officers who were present were the ones who had sent and signed those telegrams I am talking about.
Q. Witness is it known to you that at the beginning of October 1943, at the request of General Zervas, a discussion took place at ten o'clock in the morning about 15 kilometers to the southwest of Jannina, in a village called Hellenikon? What do you know about these conferences?
A Who was present there?
Q General Zervas was supposed to come, who had promised his personal attendance.
A Well, let's make a difference now between the two, was he supposed to come or what? Was the General supposed to come? I didn't quite understand your question. I don't know whether you meant the person was to come or had come or what.
Q I said that General Zervas had promised to come to this conference in person. Instead he sent an officer, a captain and sent apologies through this Captain, and he conveyed through this captain that this captain was empowered to conduct the negotiations. Just a moment. And in lieu of General Lanz, Colonel Dietl appeared as the Chief of Staff of General Lanz.
A I believe when I gave you that testimony before, I was referring to the third attempt which was made by the Germans and which took place around the 13th of October 1943, at which time they had made a proposal that General Zervas should designate a place where they were to meet.
Q Yes, and General Zervas designated a place.
A The General communicated that information to General Headquarters of the Middle East, and we have as evidence the telegram which was sent there by Tom Barnes, and the Headquarters of the Middle East stated that this was probably an old German trick. And that is probably what the defense counsel is referring to, namely, that this officer went and told them that there would be no such thing.
Q Do you know anything about this, Witness--that this officer drove to Jannina and received a letter from Colonel Dietl in Jannina, and that this officer personally handed this letter from Dietl to Zervas?
A You're referring to a letter by General Lanz, aren't you?
A Yes, I mean a letter from General Lanz to General Zervas.
A I know of no such thing.
Q Witness, do you know anything of this--that vice versa General Zervas also wrote personally to General Lanz regarding these dis cussions?
A No, I know nothing about that either.
Q And how many attempts according to your assertions did General Lanz make in order to arrive at a truce with the National Partisans?
A Apart from those three that I mentioned before, I also know of a fourth approach that General Lanz made in July 1944, at which time an agreement was reached according to which the Germans were going to surrender. And then there was another occasion, namely, in August or September, at which time negotiations were carried out for the surrender of the Germans.
Q Witness, is it known to you that Captain Sarantis and a Captain Michanaki, during the whole year between the autumn of 1943 till the autumn of 1944, were discussing quite a number of matters with the staff of General Lanz?
A Both of these people were spies. Both of them were wellknown spies, and they had orders to act in a deteriorating manner in order to harm the Germans.
Q If I have understood you correctly, you're saying that these delegates sent by General Zervas in order to negotiate with General Lanz were in reality merely spies who had been sent for this purpose by General Zervas. Have I understood you rightly?
A General Zervas did not send them.
Q Well, who sent them then if they were spies?
A General Zervas did not tell them to go to see General Lanz. These people were just doing their duty. They were going down there in order to possibly disturb the Germans and to communicate information obtained from them, to us.
Q Witness, you want to state on oath that General Zervas did not know of this? Do you want to tell us that under oath?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: If Your Honor pleases, I object to the insinuations that Dr. Sauter has continually made about the witness's testifying under oath. 2128
THE PRESIDENT (JUDGE WENNERSTRUM): I think that possibly the counsel might deter from making that statement. I think the witness is conscious of the fact that he is under oath, and if you will deter from that phase of your examination, Doctor, it will be appreciated.
BY DR. SAUTER:
Q Witness, please answer my last question. You really want to maintain that General Zervas had no knowledge of the activity of these two officers mentioned, and that he did not order them to foim this action?
.A As I have stated clearly, these two people were doing a special job. And it was left to them to decide and make up their minds how to take care of their job. If I would turn around, Mr. Defense Counsel, and tell you how much information we received from your own soldiers you would hardly believe it.
Q Witness, please answer the questions which I have put to you. I asked you whether you really want to maintain that General Zervas did not give this order to these officers to negotiate as spies with the staff of General Lanz, that General Zervas did not know nothing of this. This is my clear question which I ask you to answer clearly.
A Well, naturally General Zervas knew that these people were spies and that they were giving us information from the headquarters of the enemy.
Q.- Did General Zervas also know that these two officers has entered into negotiations with the staff of General Lanz about a truce in order to be able to spy while doing this?
A.- They couldn't carry out any negotiations. First, let me point out the following: As I was personally up in the mountains together with Zervas' forces, I couldn't tell you what these people exactly were doing. You, Mr. Defense counsel, are telling me all about it. If they had carried out some sort of negotiations with the Germans, we would have caught them, and they would have been dealt with as if they had been traitors.
Q.- Did these two officers belong to the Staff of General Zervas?
A.- Which two officers are you referring to? Michalai was not an officer, he was simply a civilian, and as far as Sarantis is concerned he was an officer of the Army who had been assigned even prior to the beginning of the war to tasks of espionage and counter-espionage.
Q.- He was an expert in this sphere? Did Machalaki wear an uniform?
A.- No, he didn't. I told you he wasn't an officer.
Q.- Witness, A.- Excuse me for interrupting you, Mr. Defense Counsel, but I would like to stress the following point.
During the last negotiation for the surrender of the Germans, General Lanz' forces to the Allies -that was in September 1944 -- and if Michalaki hadn't performed his duties correctly, we would have found out about it, and he would have been in jail. And as a matter of fact he was in jail; he got out of jail in the meantime.
JUDGE BURKE: Is he in jail now?
WITNESS: No, Your Honor, he got out.
BY DR. SAUTER:
Q.- Why was he put in jail? He was an officer of your band.
A.- He was charged with having fallen for the foul play as given by the Germans, without his wanting it perhaps.
Q.- What do you want to say about this?
A.- We believe that he played along with the Germans without actually wanting it.
Q.- Witness, you said today that we are only dealing with efforts of General Lanz to arrive at an understanding with Zervas.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: If Your Honor please, I don't believe the witness testified about such a thing.
THE PRESIDENT (JUDGE WENNERSTRUM): The witness can protect himself in any situation in connection with any of his quotations, I am quite certain. The objection will be over-ruled.
BY DR. SAUTER:
A.- Will you repeat your question, Mr. Defense Counsel?
Q.- Were agreements really arrived at between General Zervas and General Lanz, or between the two staffs of these generals?
A.- I told you before that the three or four attempts as made by General Lanz were made in order to get together and to discuss this matter because you couldn't reach an agreement without having a discussion in advance. As I stated before the attempts were made by General Lanz because two parties had to be present before any negotiations could be carried out. If an agreement should be reached it necessitates the presence of both parties in order to reach an agreement, which agreement did not exist on the part of Zervas.
Q.- Did not exist? Witness, don't you know anything about the fact that a staff of Lanz's came to a repeated agreement with the delegates of General Zervas that the troops of General Zervas were to be supported by the German troops in their fight against Communist Partisans?
A.- The Germans at all times tried to get some of the groups against the Communists and sometimes again they supported the Communists in the fight against our groups. Those were the wishes on the part of the Germans.
Those were their wishes at least and what turned out to be was entirely different.
Q.- Witness, if you, as a Greek Nationalist, know all so accurately what the Germans wanted than you will be even much better able to tell us what your friend, Zervas, wanted, and for this reason, I am asking you, don't you know that General Zervas repeatedly asked General Lanz for armed assistance against the Communists and that he had so received this armed assistance from General Lanz?
Court V Case VII Anagnostopoulos)
A That is an absolute lie because whoever at any time accepted weapons from the Germans was a traitor, an absolute traitor.
Q And you maintain that General Zervas and his officers did not receive German arms?
A No, General Zervas did not receive any weapons and every Greek citizen with a sound heart at no time accepted anything from the Germans - with sound heart and mind.
Q And I am asking you about the following incident: In the beginning of 1944, the units of General Zervas found themselves in an unfavorable position at the Arachtos front. Does the witness know anything about whether General Zervas at that time wrote a letter in his own handwriting to General Lanz, a sealed letter asking General Lanz for armed assistance?
A No, I don't know of any such thing.
Q May I continue? On the basis of the consent of General Lanz, Capt. Serrantis whom you talked of recently, an operational plan was worked out with the officers of General Lanz, on the basis of this mutual operational plan at the Arachtos front, the troops of General Zervas and the German troops attacked simultaneously. General Zervas from the West, Lanz with his troops from North and South, and through this General Zervas gained a big victory over the Communists with the help of General Lanz. Does the witness know anything of all this?
A I believe, Mr. Defense Counsel is repeating a well known piece of German propaganda here which the Germans were using both in Greece and Yugoslavia. In any case, as things are, if this incident really would have been correct and it would have come to the knowledge Court V Case VII Anagnostopoulos) of General Zervas that this Serrantis participated in this, he would have been caught and shot, and I would like to add the following.
It is very funny, Mr. Defense Counsel. You see, it so happened that at that time, namely in March, I happened to be in the mountains and in order to reach General Zervas's forces, I had to make a great detour through an area where the Germans were attacking our groups. It would be a good thing, Mr. Defense Counsel, if you could take a trip to Greece and go up to the mountains and see the graves along the road of both German soldiers and guerilla forces on the distance between Artis, Jannina, and Tzoumerka, and Lakka-Souli.
Q Witness, I am not going to Greece. I am asking you repeatedly, is it right what I just said about the incident in the spring of 1944 at the Arachtos front?
A That is a lie.
Q Witness, I believe I said before, beginning of 1944, that seems to be a mistake. It should not be beginning of 1944; it should be August of 1944.
AAugust 1944?
Q August 1944 at the Arachtos front.
AAre you correcting yourself, Mr. Defense Counsel?
Q I have corrected myself. That is a mistake in writing. Perhaps you will correct yourself also.
A I shall refer you, Mr. Defense Counsel, and again come back to the telegrams which went to our headquarters and the Middle East headquarters. First of all, let me tell you the following. Between the 5th of August and the 14th of August, I would like to tell you, that the 10th Regiment of Zervas National Forces, in cooperation with U.S. Rangers, were fighting the Germans in the area of Kalama; and now secondly, between the 5th and the 10th of August 1944, the Zervas Regiment called Xyrovouni was advancing towards Prestan and they stopped the German forces which were advancing towards Pesta, which is near Arachi and smashed up their columns.
On the 17th of August, which is the third occasion, the 10th Division of Zervas and his 40th Regiment led by Major Rogers of the U.S. Army, advanced towards Menina which is on the roads Igoumenitza and Jannina. During that time, those groups captured the German position of Menina, captured 120 prisoners, killed 100 Germans and captured along with the 100 prisoners 50 wounded and also all the equipment which belonged to the Germans; that is, vehicles, guns, horses, and all the other equipment that is both foodstuff and ammunition. Those, Mr. Defense Counsel, are only three incidents which occurred during the period of time which you mentioned in connection with Arachto.
THE PRESIDENT: We will take our afternoon recess at this time.
(A recess was taken).
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I have only a few more questions.
Q Witness, I'd like to get a few answers from you about certain incidents in the last weeks of the occupation. Witness, do you know anything about the fact that General Zervas in the fall of 1944 requested General Lanz, through his spies, to tell him when the troops of General Lanz would evacuate the various parts of Epiros?
AAll I know personally, because I personally participated in this, is that General Lanz ordered to me either General Zervas in July or Tom Barnes. All I know is that at least as far as we knew, General Lanz believed that something serious was going to happen in Germany and therefore it was Lanz's idea, as we heard, to contact either General Zervas or the Chief of the Allied Mission in Greece. General Zervas refused to participate in this, and this approach and the whole thing was carried out by Tom Barnes. Tom Barnes reported to his headquarters, mainly to Marshal Wilson, and the result was that in case the Germans should make serious efforts to surrender unconditionally he should contact and carry on negotiations with General Lanz. Later the agent returned to Jannina and when he finally arrived he reported that General Lanz had personally told him that it was not possible for General Lanz personally to go and see Tom Barnes because, as he said, of the serious incident which he was expecting to happen in Germany had happened, namely: the attempt on Hitler's life.
Q Witness, as far as I can understand your testimony I take it that you did not answer my question. So, in order that we might get ahead a little mere quickly I would suggest to you that you confine yourself to my questions. I repeat, do you know that in the fall of 1944. General Zervas requested General Lanz to tell him when he would evacuate the various parts in order that the troops of General Zervas would move before the Communists would come. Perhaps you can give a brief answer to this.
A That is not correct. The only thing I know is that General Zervas sent to General Lanz the terms according to which he was to surrender unconditionally and I personally wrote those terms.
Q Therefore, you don't know anything about this. This will have to be proven by means of other witnesses. One further question: Is it known to you, witness, that General Lanz actually had General Zervas informed of the fact, informed him about what regions of Epiros would be evacuated within the next few days so that Zervas might be able to march into these regions before the Communists would come.
A The whole thing seems very funny to me because I was present when all those things were happening and between the 1st of September and 15th of October 1944 the guns and the rifles were blazing away night and day and I personally entered the area of Jannina together with the Regiment which was called Xyrovouni and they were fighting at Verina and we had nine killed in our unit the last hour.