A No, I know nothing about that either.
Q And how many attempts according to your assertions did General Lanz make in order to arrive at a truce with the National Partisans?
A Apart from those three that I mentioned before, I also know of a fourth approach that General Lanz made in July 1944, at which time an agreement was reached according to which the Germans were going to surrender. And then there was another occasion, namely, in August or September, at which time negotiations were carried out for the surrender of the Germans.
Q Witness, is it known to you that Captain Sarantis and a Captain Michanaki, during the whole year between the autumn of 1943 till the autumn of 1944, were discussing quite a number of matters with the staff of General Lanz?
A Both of these people were spies. Both of them were wellknown spies, and they had orders to act in a deteriorating manner in order to harm the Germans.
Q If I have understood you correctly, you're saying that these delegates sent by General Zervas in order to negotiate with General Lanz were in reality merely spies who had been sent for this purpose by General Zervas. Have I understood you rightly?
A General Zervas did not send them.
Q Well, who sent them then if they were spies?
A General Zervas did not tell them to go to see General Lanz. These people were just doing their duty. They were going down there in order to possibly disturb the Germans and to communicate information obtained from them, to us.
Q Witness, you want to state on oath that General Zervas did not know of this? Do you want to tell us that under oath?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: If Your Honor pleases, I object to the insinuations that Dr. Sauter has continually made about the witness's testifying under oath. 2128
THE PRESIDENT (JUDGE WENNERSTRUM): I think that possibly the counsel might deter from making that statement. I think the witness is conscious of the fact that he is under oath, and if you will deter from that phase of your examination, Doctor, it will be appreciated.
BY DR. SAUTER:
Q Witness, please answer my last question. You really want to maintain that General Zervas had no knowledge of the activity of these two officers mentioned, and that he did not order them to foim this action?
.A As I have stated clearly, these two people were doing a special job. And it was left to them to decide and make up their minds how to take care of their job. If I would turn around, Mr. Defense Counsel, and tell you how much information we received from your own soldiers you would hardly believe it.
Q Witness, please answer the questions which I have put to you. I asked you whether you really want to maintain that General Zervas did not give this order to these officers to negotiate as spies with the staff of General Lanz, that General Zervas did not know nothing of this. This is my clear question which I ask you to answer clearly.
A Well, naturally General Zervas knew that these people were spies and that they were giving us information from the headquarters of the enemy.
Q.- Did General Zervas also know that these two officers has entered into negotiations with the staff of General Lanz about a truce in order to be able to spy while doing this?
A.- They couldn't carry out any negotiations. First, let me point out the following: As I was personally up in the mountains together with Zervas' forces, I couldn't tell you what these people exactly were doing. You, Mr. Defense counsel, are telling me all about it. If they had carried out some sort of negotiations with the Germans, we would have caught them, and they would have been dealt with as if they had been traitors.
Q.- Did these two officers belong to the Staff of General Zervas?
A.- Which two officers are you referring to? Michalai was not an officer, he was simply a civilian, and as far as Sarantis is concerned he was an officer of the Army who had been assigned even prior to the beginning of the war to tasks of espionage and counter-espionage.
Q.- He was an expert in this sphere? Did Machalaki wear an uniform?
A.- No, he didn't. I told you he wasn't an officer.
Q.- Witness, A.- Excuse me for interrupting you, Mr. Defense Counsel, but I would like to stress the following point.
During the last negotiation for the surrender of the Germans, General Lanz' forces to the Allies -that was in September 1944 -- and if Michalaki hadn't performed his duties correctly, we would have found out about it, and he would have been in jail. And as a matter of fact he was in jail; he got out of jail in the meantime.
JUDGE BURKE: Is he in jail now?
WITNESS: No, Your Honor, he got out.
BY DR. SAUTER:
Q.- Why was he put in jail? He was an officer of your band.
A.- He was charged with having fallen for the foul play as given by the Germans, without his wanting it perhaps.
Q.- What do you want to say about this?
A.- We believe that he played along with the Germans without actually wanting it.
Q.- Witness, you said today that we are only dealing with efforts of General Lanz to arrive at an understanding with Zervas.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: If Your Honor please, I don't believe the witness testified about such a thing.
THE PRESIDENT (JUDGE WENNERSTRUM): The witness can protect himself in any situation in connection with any of his quotations, I am quite certain. The objection will be over-ruled.
BY DR. SAUTER:
A.- Will you repeat your question, Mr. Defense Counsel?
Q.- Were agreements really arrived at between General Zervas and General Lanz, or between the two staffs of these generals?
A.- I told you before that the three or four attempts as made by General Lanz were made in order to get together and to discuss this matter because you couldn't reach an agreement without having a discussion in advance. As I stated before the attempts were made by General Lanz because two parties had to be present before any negotiations could be carried out. If an agreement should be reached it necessitates the presence of both parties in order to reach an agreement, which agreement did not exist on the part of Zervas.
Q.- Did not exist? Witness, don't you know anything about the fact that a staff of Lanz's came to a repeated agreement with the delegates of General Zervas that the troops of General Zervas were to be supported by the German troops in their fight against Communist Partisans?
A.- The Germans at all times tried to get some of the groups against the Communists and sometimes again they supported the Communists in the fight against our groups. Those were the wishes on the part of the Germans.
Those were their wishes at least and what turned out to be was entirely different.
Q.- Witness, if you, as a Greek Nationalist, know all so accurately what the Germans wanted than you will be even much better able to tell us what your friend, Zervas, wanted, and for this reason, I am asking you, don't you know that General Zervas repeatedly asked General Lanz for armed assistance against the Communists and that he had so received this armed assistance from General Lanz?
Court V Case VII Anagnostopoulos)
A That is an absolute lie because whoever at any time accepted weapons from the Germans was a traitor, an absolute traitor.
Q And you maintain that General Zervas and his officers did not receive German arms?
A No, General Zervas did not receive any weapons and every Greek citizen with a sound heart at no time accepted anything from the Germans - with sound heart and mind.
Q And I am asking you about the following incident: In the beginning of 1944, the units of General Zervas found themselves in an unfavorable position at the Arachtos front. Does the witness know anything about whether General Zervas at that time wrote a letter in his own handwriting to General Lanz, a sealed letter asking General Lanz for armed assistance?
A No, I don't know of any such thing.
Q May I continue? On the basis of the consent of General Lanz, Capt. Serrantis whom you talked of recently, an operational plan was worked out with the officers of General Lanz, on the basis of this mutual operational plan at the Arachtos front, the troops of General Zervas and the German troops attacked simultaneously. General Zervas from the West, Lanz with his troops from North and South, and through this General Zervas gained a big victory over the Communists with the help of General Lanz. Does the witness know anything of all this?
A I believe, Mr. Defense Counsel is repeating a well known piece of German propaganda here which the Germans were using both in Greece and Yugoslavia. In any case, as things are, if this incident really would have been correct and it would have come to the knowledge Court V Case VII Anagnostopoulos) of General Zervas that this Serrantis participated in this, he would have been caught and shot, and I would like to add the following.
It is very funny, Mr. Defense Counsel. You see, it so happened that at that time, namely in March, I happened to be in the mountains and in order to reach General Zervas's forces, I had to make a great detour through an area where the Germans were attacking our groups. It would be a good thing, Mr. Defense Counsel, if you could take a trip to Greece and go up to the mountains and see the graves along the road of both German soldiers and guerilla forces on the distance between Artis, Jannina, and Tzoumerka, and Lakka-Souli.
Q Witness, I am not going to Greece. I am asking you repeatedly, is it right what I just said about the incident in the spring of 1944 at the Arachtos front?
A That is a lie.
Q Witness, I believe I said before, beginning of 1944, that seems to be a mistake. It should not be beginning of 1944; it should be August of 1944.
AAugust 1944?
Q August 1944 at the Arachtos front.
AAre you correcting yourself, Mr. Defense Counsel?
Q I have corrected myself. That is a mistake in writing. Perhaps you will correct yourself also.
A I shall refer you, Mr. Defense Counsel, and again come back to the telegrams which went to our headquarters and the Middle East headquarters. First of all, let me tell you the following. Between the 5th of August and the 14th of August, I would like to tell you, that the 10th Regiment of Zervas National Forces, in cooperation with U.S. Rangers, were fighting the Germans in the area of Kalama; and now secondly, between the 5th and the 10th of August 1944, the Zervas Regiment called Xyrovouni was advancing towards Prestan and they stopped the German forces which were advancing towards Pesta, which is near Arachi and smashed up their columns.
On the 17th of August, which is the third occasion, the 10th Division of Zervas and his 40th Regiment led by Major Rogers of the U.S. Army, advanced towards Menina which is on the roads Igoumenitza and Jannina. During that time, those groups captured the German position of Menina, captured 120 prisoners, killed 100 Germans and captured along with the 100 prisoners 50 wounded and also all the equipment which belonged to the Germans; that is, vehicles, guns, horses, and all the other equipment that is both foodstuff and ammunition. Those, Mr. Defense Counsel, are only three incidents which occurred during the period of time which you mentioned in connection with Arachto.
THE PRESIDENT: We will take our afternoon recess at this time.
(A recess was taken).
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I have only a few more questions.
Q Witness, I'd like to get a few answers from you about certain incidents in the last weeks of the occupation. Witness, do you know anything about the fact that General Zervas in the fall of 1944 requested General Lanz, through his spies, to tell him when the troops of General Lanz would evacuate the various parts of Epiros?
AAll I know personally, because I personally participated in this, is that General Lanz ordered to me either General Zervas in July or Tom Barnes. All I know is that at least as far as we knew, General Lanz believed that something serious was going to happen in Germany and therefore it was Lanz's idea, as we heard, to contact either General Zervas or the Chief of the Allied Mission in Greece. General Zervas refused to participate in this, and this approach and the whole thing was carried out by Tom Barnes. Tom Barnes reported to his headquarters, mainly to Marshal Wilson, and the result was that in case the Germans should make serious efforts to surrender unconditionally he should contact and carry on negotiations with General Lanz. Later the agent returned to Jannina and when he finally arrived he reported that General Lanz had personally told him that it was not possible for General Lanz personally to go and see Tom Barnes because, as he said, of the serious incident which he was expecting to happen in Germany had happened, namely: the attempt on Hitler's life.
Q Witness, as far as I can understand your testimony I take it that you did not answer my question. So, in order that we might get ahead a little mere quickly I would suggest to you that you confine yourself to my questions. I repeat, do you know that in the fall of 1944. General Zervas requested General Lanz to tell him when he would evacuate the various parts in order that the troops of General Zervas would move before the Communists would come. Perhaps you can give a brief answer to this.
A That is not correct. The only thing I know is that General Zervas sent to General Lanz the terms according to which he was to surrender unconditionally and I personally wrote those terms.
Q Therefore, you don't know anything about this. This will have to be proven by means of other witnesses. One further question: Is it known to you, witness, that General Lanz actually had General Zervas informed of the fact, informed him about what regions of Epiros would be evacuated within the next few days so that Zervas might be able to march into these regions before the Communists would come.
A The whole thing seems very funny to me because I was present when all those things were happening and between the 1st of September and 15th of October 1944 the guns and the rifles were blazing away night and day and I personally entered the area of Jannina together with the Regiment which was called Xyrovouni and they were fighting at Verina and we had nine killed in our unit the last hour.
Q Witness, I didn't ask you how many dead you had in the last hour but I asked you, do you actually know anything about the fact that General Zervas informed General Lanz as to what regions would be evacuated by the German troops within the next few days. The witness can answer the question with either a yes or no.
A No, of course.
Q Do you know that during those negotiations General Zervas proposed to General Lanz that Lanz, together with his troops, should desert to Zervas, that he, Lanz, and his troops would be decently treated and that they would then be committed as police troops?
A The things as quoted by Mr. Defense Counsel are exactly a distortion of the terms as written by me on the 9th of September in the evening in the office of General Zervas and presented to them.
Q Therefore, you know nothing about such a proposal. Answer this question yes or no?
A There was no such proposal.
Q Another question, do you know that General Lanz, before his withdrawal from Jannina gave considerable amount of food and other stocks to the population and International Red Cross?
A Yes, that is known to me.
Q Do you also know that during the withdrawal of the German troops from Jannina the Mayor of that town, a Bishop, expressed the gratitude of the population to General Lanz for the good will with which General Lanz treated the population of the town?
A Both the Mayor and the Bishop were trembling with fear thinking that the Germans might actually put their threats into effect whereby they would blow up all the city and they may have thanked them for not blowing it up.
Q How does the witness know that?
A The way I know about it was that when I asked them how they dared to thank their invaders they told us they had witnesses to prove what had happened. The witnesses were, at least the name of one, was Konstantopoulos.
Q Witness, don't you know that the Mayor of Jannina in front of a large crowd of people told General Lanz when he left if General Lanz would ever return to the Balkans he would at any time be able to enjoy the hospitality of Jannina, and at this very same occasion the Mayor told General Lanz that the town of Jannina was very grateful to General Lanz for his solicitude?
A I don't know if he used those words but I know he spoke and I know why he spoke.
Q Well, what did he say?
A I don't know exactly what he said but when we entered the city we heard that the mayor had spoken to Lanz and we wanted to know what he had said and the reason for doing so.
A Witness, is it correct that in leaflets and in newspapers frequent approaches were made to General Zervas that he had collaborated with the Germans and is it correct that because of this charge General Zervas even at that time was very severely attacked from various leaflets?
Q The fact as is shown by those attacks and it seems from the sources those attacks came from, it is definite proof that General Zervas was the only and real opponent of the Germans in Greece.
BY JUDGE BURKE:
Q I think the question was somewhat differently framed. The question in the first instance: Were such attacks in truth and in fact made on General Zervas by the leftist organizations?
A Yes, I said they did happen, yes.
BY DR. SAUTER: I have no further questions, your Honor.
Thank you.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Your Honor I just have a very few questions. Witness, at the beginning of the war between Germany and Greece, were you a soldier at that time?
A I was a war correspondent at the Front.
Q And were you in May, June and July 1941, in Athens?
A What year?
Q 1941.
A Yes, I was.
Q Who executed the occupation of Athens, the Germans or the Italians?
A During the entire first period of May it was the Germans; later on came the Italians, with the only difference that the Germans had seen to it that they were able to keep whatever was tangible and essential.
Court No. V, Case No. VII.
Q. I didn't ask you about that, witness. I just wanted to know approximately when the Italians took over the supreme military command administration in Athens.
A. It was the end of May or early in June, if I am not mistaken.
Q. You mean the year 1941?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know whether, in the conditions of capitulation there was a provision according to which the Greeks obligated themselves officially not to fight the German any more?
A. No, I know of no such thing.
Q. You told us yesterday about the development of the Zervas movement and you said that in the first period, July 1942 to November 1942, there were 98 members.
A. I said that most of the gorilla forces, the number on the 23rd of October amounted to 98 men, including Zervas.
Q. And in the next period, from November 1942 to December, you mentioned the number 500 to 600.
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Now, we are speaking of the 98. Did they all remain with that movement?
A. All those that were left and hadn't gotten killed.
Q. Killed by whom?
A. By the Italians and the Germans in the battles fought against the two.
Q. Witness, how strong is a batallion?
A. The battalions in the gorilla forces did not have the personnel strength that normal military organizations have. In any case, the personnel strength was anything from between 120 men to 250 and that was at the time when the total number of gorillas was approximately 10,000 men.
Q. Now, I would like to know, because you have already testified about military matters, how strong a normal battalion is?
A. According to the structure of the French army, which applied to our army also, a battalion had a personnel strength of 800 to 1000 men. However, today, as our army is based on British principles, the personnel strength in a Greek battalion in a Greek army today ranges between 50 and 300: therefore, practically the same as that of the gorilla forces in the mountains.
Q. Now, you said yesterday that the battles were fought against four Italian battalions.
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. How strong approximately was one of these Italian battalions?
A. According to the information which we had at the time of the battle of Skoulikaria, they must have had from between 350 to 500 men in one battalion plus their transportation, whatever it was -- vehicles, mules or horses.
Q. Did I understand you correctly, that you said that the Italian battalions had about 350 to 500 men?
A. Yes, that is correct -- 350 to 500 men.
Q. Then these 98 men would have opposed 1500 to 1800 Italians?
A. Absolutely.
Q. And how did these battles turn out?
A. I believe that Mr. Defense Counsel doesn't know very well what gorilla warfare means. I would like to tell you that within 17 days, which was between the 23rd of October and the 10th of November and during the battle of Gorgopotamus, after the battle of Gorgopotamus, after exactly one month after this battle, we carried out, for one month after that battle, we carried out continuous harassing of the enemy, attacking them from mountain to mountain, from ridge to ridge, and from valley to valley.
We killed a lot of them. We captured lots of them and we even captured their means of transportation.
Q. But, witness, did I understand you correctly to say that you with your 98 men even attacked these Italians?
A. Absolutely. Why is it so funny to you, Mr. Defense Counsel? After all, Greece did win the war over Italy, although Greece only had 7 million in it's population number and the Italians had 14 millions.
Q. I summarized that these 98 men attacked 1500 to 1800 Italians and even chased them away.
A. These 98 men for a period of two months and a half bothered the Italians to such an extent that they forced them to leave. Yes, even more than that, the Italians colonel in charge of those Italians gave the order, made the proposal to General Zervas to give him permission to leave, promising him he would never return and he issued such orders, but his proposals were not accepted.
Q. Witness, were those hard fights?
A. Absolutely, yes.
Q. How many losses did you have?
A. One lieutenant colonel was killed. His name was Avgerinos, and we also had fourteen dead during the first phase of the struggle. Later on our losses became more severe, forcefully, because we used more men.
Q. But you had only 98 men at that time?
A. Mr. Defense Counsel is not following very much the proceedings here. In any case, the prosecution asked me about those things and I said that on the 23rd of October, during the first phase of the struggle, we had 98 men whereupon the Bridge of Gorgopotamus was blown up; and in December and after that many more things happened.
The British started throwing supplies down by parachutes, and uniforms and arms.
Q. Witness, I believe you have answered my question. We can leave this point.
A. And the battle continued.
Q. Witness, have you ever participated yourself in battle?
A. Personally, I watched the battle between the two parties by being in between the two. It was not my task to fight. It was my task to watch and I was right in the front line together with the other gorillas who were fighting. This does not necessarily mean that I did not make use of the weapon I had.
Q. Witness, would you please be more brief in answering my questions? Did you personally have a weapon?
A. Absolutely.
Q. But you just said that you were an observer and didn't shoot.
A. I said that the one does not stop the other. In the first place I was a gorilla and in the secondary station came my job as a war correspondent but the first did not stop the second.
Q. I asked you, did you personally participate in any battle?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. When and where?
A. (N.I.)
Q. If you answer my questions very briefly, I will be very happy. I just want to know when and where you fought.
A. I participated, for instance, in the battle in the Prebissiva on the 5th and 6th of July 1944. I also participated in the attack against the German column near the Bridge of Zita. I also participated in the battle of Menina.
Q. Did you shoot personally in those battles?
A. Yes and yes and yes.
Q. You said yesterday something about the conduct of the Zervas troops when they were surrounded. Were you ever surrounded?
A. No, not personally, no.
Q. How do you know, then, how the Zervas troops conducted themselves when they were surrounded?
A. The same way I knew about it in the same manner in which the defense counsel knows about quite a few facts in which possibly he was not involved. For instance, we know that the French were encircled in the Sedan.
Q. What is the difference, witness, between you and me? That means you don't know how the troops conducted themselves as you were not there personally. Witness please answer my question briefly. Do you know?
A. Personally, of course, I don't know anything because I wasn't there.
Q. Why didn't you say that yesterday?
A. I wasn't asked anything in that connection.
Q. You mean that you can tell the Tribunal anything you have ever heard you can tell the Tribunal as a fact?
A. I did not Commit anything in particular to the Tribunal. I was asked what I knew. I want asked what I had seen. Whenever I was asked if I had seen it, I said I had seen it or hadn't seen it; and if they asked me how I know about it I explained how I did.
Q. But were you used differently that way from other witnesses, I would have to ask you every time whether you had seen it or whether you had heard about it.
A. That's up to you.
Q. Well, can I assume that everything you have said here you either heard or saw or were told by somebody and perhaps saw something of it yourself?
A. The moment I receive an official report from a unit, according to which they are encircled and the report contains exactly where and how they were encircled that, of course, is according to the logic which prevails all over the world, with the exception of here, I believe it would mean that it is an official report ans I can state it.
Q. Therefore, you are or a journalist than a witness? Give me a brief answer.
Q. In Greece the term "correspondent," "journalist" is an honorary term. It is not as it used to be in Goebbels's time that this was propagandistic, and a man who would tell lies. In any case, in Greece whoever is a correspondent or a newspaper man would always toil the truth and they consider that an honor.
Q. But I didn't mean this in a derogatory sense. I just mean that whatever you have described here you didn't see personally, did you?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Your Honors, the witness has testified her on many occasions that he has gone back and forth to the mountains and he has seen battle and on March 1944, until the end, he has actually been in the mountains with Zervas' troops. I think if Dr. Laternser wants to quote the witness's testimony, he ought to quote it correctly.
THE PRESIDENT: I have this thought in connection with this examination, that possibly Dr. Laternser is endeavoring to attack the credibility of the witness and his questions are directed along that lino. However, although I do not want to limit the cross examination, I suggest that we spent considerable time along this line, Dr. Aternswe, and perhaps you made your point along that phase of the questioning and we might proceed to something lose.
DR. LATERNSER: Yes your Honor, but I just have a few questions.
Q. Witness, were you one of those 98 people who fought against the the Italians?
A. No.
DR. LATERNSER: I have no further questions.
DR. WEISGERBER (Counsel for the defendant Speidel)
Q. Witness, you are well informed about all the undertakings of the Servas organization?
A Yes.
Q. You said yesterday that the Zervas organization in the first month of the year 1944 had about 3,000 to 4,000 men.
A. That is in the Epiros area.