A.- Yes, that is correct. There were units of the regular Greek Army under the Command of General Wilson of the Middle Mast and they were being supplied by the British with weapons, uniforms and ammunition, that were dropped by parachutists.
Q.- Since you are in Nurnberg, have you spoken of this to the prosecutors?
A.- No, I did not especially mention that part.
Q.- You want to tell me, witness, that you were not told that the units came under the command of the Middle Mast Commanding officer?
A.- I want to let you know, Mr. Defense Counsel, that I don't want you to doubt my credibility. I have escaped from death and I am responsible, not only towards God; I am testifying as a Greek who knows what he owes to his Greek origin and tradition.
Q.- And, therefore, I am asking you, witness -- you haven't answered my question -- do you really want to tell me that you were not told since you arrived in Nurnberg that these units came under the command of the Middle Mast Commanding Officer of the Middle East, yes or no?
A.- No, no, no.
Q.- And no documents have been shown to you, witness?
A.- No, but I want to tell you again that I myself was a liaison man between the Greeks and the British commanders and knew that broadcasting took place and messages were sent regularly to the Middle Mast. I know it from my personal activities.
Q.- I asked you, witness, and you have evaded my question, whether you were told, whether you were shewn document here in Nurnberg, about the Kalavrita case or not.
A.- No.
Q.- Witness, you said after the Germans had evacuated the area the funerals of the dead took place?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Who buried the dead?
A.- The women and the small children and some of the old men who had remained.
Q.- Did you also help?
A.- I was a wounded man and could not do it at that time.
Q.- How many women did there remain in the village?
A.- All the women had remained.
Q.- How many were there approximately?
A.- Between 1,300 and 1,500. We have also small children to count.
Q.- And you said just then that you wore digging the graves with your hands. Is that true?
A.- Yes, that is correct, because we had to do it with the hands as we didn't have any instruments to do it with and, besides that, we took out of the burned houses some iron bars and whatever could help us in doing this job.
Q.- You said just then "We did that." Did you help, therefore?
A.- That is the manner of saying. Naturally, I could not help as I was a wounded man.
Q.- How long did it take those women to dig these graves?
A.- Seven days and a half and some more' because, in the meantime dogs were there and dug them out so we had to bury them again, I want to correct myself -- foxes and dogs went there.
Q.- Witness, hots many school children were there approximately in Kalavrita, that is, children who went to school?
A.- 345, because I am a member of the school committee, I know it.
Q.- How many school rooms did the school contain approximately?
A.- You mean now?
Q.- Yes, -- no, at that time, of course.
A.- Six classrooms, Q.- That is sort of a medium sized building, isn't it?
What does it look like approximately?
A.- About six times this room here, as long as six times this room.
Q.- And then, of course, there was a courtyard, I assume? How big was that?
A.- Very big courtyard with flowers and much bigger than the school -- with trees and flowers and much bigger than the school itself.
Q.- What was the size of the courtyard, about throe or four times the size of this room?
A.- To give you an idea, it is about two times as big as the square in front of the Grand Hotel in Nurnberg.
Q.- That is, the courtyard is about twice the size of the open space in front of the Grand Hotel?
A.- This is a courtyard and at the same time a garden which surrounds the school building and is as big as I told you.
Q.- Do you happen to have photographs or pictures of this village?
A.- Yes, I had them but, unfortunately, I didn't bring them along, together with the trousers with it that I wanted to bring along, which I wore at the time I was executed and which sowed the bullets. I had taken many pictures but I didn't bring them along.
Q.- You said, witness, there were six rooms in this school house?
A.- Yes, that is correct.
Q.- How many women and children were there in Kalavrita in December 1943?
A.- About 2,600. I cannot give you exact figures.
Q.- Now, you said, witness, that all women and children were locked into the school house. Do you want to tell me that 2,600 women and children wore housed, were put into these six rooms?
A.- There wore. I really told you this and I mean it because if you have an idea how the sardines are put together in a tin you would get an idea how these people were crowded and jammed together.
THE PRESIDENT: We will take our afternoon recess now.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 1520 hours.
(A recess was taken.)
Q. Witness, how large is a classroom in the school of Kalavrita?
A. It is narrower than this room by about 2 meters and longer than this room about 3 meters.
Q. Is the usual schoolroom in that schoolhouse larger or smaller than this room?
A. I consider it bigger than this room, - larger.
Q. Much larger than this room?
A. About three meters longer than this room.
Q. I have already asked you how many school children were regularly in attendance at Kalavrita?
A. 350 as I said before.
Q. And how many classrooms did the school usually have?
A. Five.
INTERPRETER LEA: That is not classrooms; it is classes.
BY DR. LATERNSER, (continuing)
Q. You then said before that, in this schoolhouse on that day, I believe it was the 9th of December, -- no on the 13th of December, 2,600 women and children were locked in ?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. How many persons had to be in each room - approximately?
A. About 400 persons. It is very simple to figure it out people were standing also in the corridors.
Q. And you mean to say that in every one of these rooms, that 400 persons fit into those school rooms?
A. Yes, I repeat it, and I insist upon that, and I saw it personally.
Q. I have already asked you before, do you have any pictures with you of Kalavrita, -- here in Nurnberg?
A. As I told you already before, I had pictures, but I left them in Athens. I do not have them here. I will have them sent to the Tribunal as soon as I arrive back in Athens.
Q. Then will you also include pictures of the school? Will you please?
A. Most certainly.
Q. Witness, you said that the Germans took -- collected a lot of cattle and drove them away.
A. Yes, I did, especially this cattle had been collected from the various villages around Kalavrita, and had been gathered in the fields and plains of Kalavrita, and were then driven away. There were a great number of cattle.
Q. How were they carried off, on trucks, or were they just driven away, as it was?
A. They drove away the big cattle, and the chickens and the ducks and the geese they loaded them on, - they sent them by railway and cars, and sent them away after they had loaded them on freight cars.
Q. But most of she castle, they loaded most of them on trucks; is that correct?
A. I did not speak about trucks; on the trucks wore loaded the stems that had been looted from the stores; the other items, the geese and the ducks and the chickens had been loaded on freight cars and were sent away, and the cattle were driven away on the highways loading to Patras, Corinthos and Aegion.
Q. Witness, but you just said that all of the cattle were driven together near Kalavrita; is that right?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. And where were they gathered together? There was this place to which the cattle were driven?
A. It was just a plain that begins after the town of Kalavrita, in the fields and vineyards and so on, just in the plain that begun after the last part of the town.
Q. And how large is this place where the cattle were collected?
A. The plain of Kalavrita, to give you a picture, is about 25,000 square meters. Now exactly how big the place was whore the cattle were gathered together, I couldn't tell you, but it was a big place, because the plain has very big extensions. It could be that they were gathered without any disturbance, because the plain was Dig enough.
Q. How do you know there were 30,000 head of cattle?
A. That is very easy to find out because the various cultivators and farmers that had to bring the cattle in, knew about how many head every man had brought in, and so it was very easy to be sure about the figures.
Q. Who determined that figure?
A. We did not give you just an exact figure. I mean that largely I estimated the figure personally, because 14 villages had to contribute, and every person told me that they had so many head of cattle.
G. But how do you get the figure 30,000?
A. Because this is the approximate figure, that I know exactly well from the farmers who had brought in the cattle. It is an approximate figure that I give you. It could be even more than that.
Q. Witness, you said that during the shootings at Kalavrita, 40 of your relatives were killed. Is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Please enumerate these 40 relatives for me?
A. Yes, I will.
Q. Always give the name and the degree of relationship.
a. Hagolnis, and the first name, Spyridon, mother.
Q. You just have to give one name, and the degree of relationship. Just one name is sufficient.
A. Karakassis, a first cousin of mine;
Kamberos, a first cousin of mine, a lawyer;
Gatsos, a first cousin of mine.
Q. This is No. 4, what about five?
A. Yes, I am very willing to continue. Refer, a second cousin of mine. His brother, Alekos Fefes, also a second cousin of mine.
Pagonis, a first cousin of mine, and his brother, Alekos, Pagonis, also a first cousin of mine.
Q. How many have we got now? It is 6 isn't it. No. 7 please.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: I believe we are now through No. 8, Your Honor.
BY Dr. LATERNSER:
Q. No. 8 please. Please list the 8th relative.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: I think he has already given 8. The next number is 9 your Honors.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. We will calculate it afterwards. No. 9 for all I care. Give me No. 9.
A. Dimitrios Beskos a 2nd cousin of mine.
Q. No. 10?
A. His father, Christos Beskos, my uncle.
Q. No. 11?
A. Philipos Philippakopoulos, and his two sons by the names of Joanis and Andreas.
Q. What degree of relationship?
A. Second cousins, and their father, my uncle.
Q. Next.
A. Alkibiades Konstantopoulos, and Athmasius Kappis, first cousin.
PRESIDENT WENNERSTRUM: Dr. Laternser, may I inquire whether these questions are for the purpose of tasting the credibility of the witness?
DR. LATERNSER: Yes, your Honor, but the critical point is to come as yet. I don't know, but I would like to find out.
Q. We have 14 now; how about 15?
A. You must know that I can even reach the number of hundreds, because I have many persons for whom I have been best man, or have been baptizing their children, and in Greece this means relationship. These are holy relations, and these persons are connected with us through relationship.
Q. By relationship -- don't you mean blood relationship?
A. You must know the Greek custom, that if my father has baptized a child, I am considered as his brother, but I can tell you many blood relatives as well.
Q. To which number had we gotten?
A. I do not remember because I did not count them.
Q. Witness, you testified that 40 of your relatives were killed. If you use the word, "relations" or "relatives" you meant of course that these are blood relatives. Do you wish to change your testimony so far as that point is concerned?
A. I shall continue so far I told you about relatives by blood. I can go on. telling you about them, but I can go as high as 80, - but I also considered, as I told you before, the persons that have relationship by marriage or by baptism in just the same manner.
Q. Witness, I ask you now, when you mentioned the number, "forty" of those who had been killed of your family, were all of those blood relatives or relatives as far as your interpretation goes?
A. I did not mean only relatives from blood, but also the others that we, in Greece, consider as relatives.
Q. Witness, in your testimony, have you any other reservations or any other interpretations?
A. No.
DR LATERNSER: I have no further questions, your Honors.
DR. MUELLER-TORGOW: Dr. Mueller-Torgow for the Defendant Felmy. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY DR. MUELLER-TORGOW:
Q Witness, you're a businessman by profession?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q What kind of business do you have?
A I have a grocery, and hides, and a factory for candles and wax lights.
Q May I please have this answer repeated?
(English-German Court Interpreter repeats answer.)
Have you travelled much in your business?
A Yes, within Greece I should say, and as far as Smyrna and Asia Minor.
Q Do you knew the Peleponnesus well?
A Yes, I do.
Q Witness, do you speak English?
A No, I don't speak English.
Q Witness, you said that the District of Kalavrita has 62,000 inhabitants.
A The whole province of Kalavrita, with the town of Kalavrita. That is correct.
Q And the district outside the town of Kalavrita consists of 55 villages and other small villages. Is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q And the two largest towns each had 350 inhabitants. Is that correct?
A The smallest villages, because the largest had about 3,000 inhabitants. I said the smallest, and the largest 3,000 -- Daphni and Kiporia. I mentioned the two largest villages.
Q Witness, how many houses did the town of Kalavrita have in November, 1943 -- approximately?
AApproximately 600 to 680 houses -- approximately.
Q From 500 to 580?
A No, from 600 to 680. Besides the shops and besides the public stadia, the Tribunal and schoolhouses, etc.
Q And in these 600 to 680 houses there lived about 4200 people. Is that right?
A That's correct -- from 3800 to 4000 -- that's correct.
Q And after the destruction of Kalavrita you said about 2800 inhabitants were left.
A That's not correct. I said that now we had a population of about 2800. After the destruction of Kalavritz about 650 to 800 had remained in the 22 houses that had not been completely burned down but were still there as ruins. And this population from about 650 to 800 stayed there only a few days after the destruction; then the Government took care to sent them to Patras, Aegion, to Athens, and the Pyraeus in order to be settled in other villages and smaller villages of the province of Kalavrita where they were placed.
Q Witness, where are the 2800 inhabitants living who are there now?
AAfter the liberation, the Greek Government, with the help of the Allies, built 200 new houses at Kalavrita. And we repaired many of the houses that had not been completely burned down and that could be repaired.
Q Witness, I'd like to go back to a prior point. You said that there were 30,000 pieces of cattle.
A Yes, and I estimate that there were even more. I mean goats, sheep, horses, oxen, and I'm insisting on that.
Q Could you tell me, approximately, of what those 30,000 pieces of cattle were composed?
AAbout 15,000 sheep and about 5,000 horses and oxen together.
Q And how was this cattle transported away?
A They drove them away through the highways to Patras and Aegion and Corinthos. And they loaded besides, two wagons with chickens and ducks and geese that they had already slaughtered.
Q Witness, but you said before that most of the cattle was taken away by trucks and a small part by railway. What was transported by trucks and what was transported by railway?
A I told you that by trucks they transported items that they had looted from the stores. That is to say, the jewelry, clothing, shoes, cereals, fruits, apples -- and by railway they transported that is by two wagons which they loaded chickens, ducks, and geese.
Q But you said something else, Witness. You did not speak of 5 but 150 trucks which were filled with plundered things, but that was previously. You said then once more that the greater part of the cattle was likewise transported by trucks.
A I told you that on the 150 trucks the merchandise was loaded -and not the cattle. The cattle had been driven away mostly by the highways leading to Patras, Aegion, and Corinthos, and also by paths leading from Kalavrita to Aegion.
Witness, you said unequivocally that 150 trucks transported cattle away; besides you s aid that the largest part of the cattle was transported on trucks. Another question: Were the railroads running at that time?
A Yes, the railway was running. There had been a certain damage which had been repaired. And I can even tell you that they put on the engine a man who was not able to conduct the train because the regular railway officials had gone to the mountains in order to avoid doing service for the Germans. Two Germans had assumed the job to conduct the engine with one Greek who was not able and did not know anything about this job.
Q. How were the railroads run then?
A. This is the cog wheel railway which runs from Diakophta for eleven kilometers with one car and then with two cars.
Q. Witness, you said that for seven days or longer the bodies were buried by the survivors and that you had to dig the graves with your fingers.
A. That's correct.
Q. You said this morning, and I must come back to it once again, "We dug the graves." and you said then upon a protest by Dr. Laternser that it is customary in the Greek language to say "we". Will you please explain why it is customary in modern Greek to say "we" if you yourself did not participate?
A. That's very simply explained. That is just a Greek idiom. When we say "we", we understand that that means persons very close to us and as we were connected through this terrible tragedy we were just like one person.
Q. What did you do during that time?
A. After I had recovered from my wounds - it was about 25 days later - I began to take care of the few inhabitants that had remained. For instance, I went to Patras to ask the German commander to release the flour that the Red Cross had sent to us and that had been withheld from us by the Germans. And I even went there with the representative of the Swedish Red Cross, but the German commander still refused to release the foodstuff that had been sent by the Red Cross, saying--
Q. Witness, you said that approximately two months later, at the end of February 1944, when the Germans came for the second time, you all had fled into the snowed-in mountains, 2500 meters high. Which mountains do you mean, witness?
A. The mountains of Chelmos.
Q. How are they situated in relation to Kalavrita?
A. About two hours from Kalavrita.
Q. In what direction?
A. Southeast of Kalavrita.
Q. Witness, in spite of my eager scrutinizing, I don't find any trace of this in the map submitted by the prosecution, nor do I find that on any other map, nor can I find any mountains 2500 meters high two hours from Kalavrita in that direction.
A. The highest peak of this mountain is about 2500 meters. We naturally went to hide there in the woods of the mountains. I didn't say that we climbed up to the peak of the mountain.
Q. But you said that near Kalavrita there are mountains 2500 meters high.
A. The mountain range of Kalavrita really begins very close to Kalavrita, about 20 minutes after Kalavrita, and the mountains naturally rise gradually. So I can really say that it is near Kalavrita, as this mountain range begins very close to Kalavrita.
Q. Are there any mountains 2500 meters high in the Kalavrita area? Is that correct?
A. About two hours distant.
Q. Then the map is all wrong, witness.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: I object to defense counsel's last remark, if Your Honors please.
THE PRESIDENT: I see no basis for that remark. There's no showing as to whether the maps, as presented, cover all the territory of which the witness has testified. And on the Court's own motion the statement of counsel will be stricken.
JUDGE BURKE: I'm wondering as a matter of natural history, Dr. Mueller-Torgow, if you have any serious doubts of the existence of such a mountain, regardless of the map.
DR. MUELLER-TORGOW: No, I don't have those doubts, but the witness said that "we fled to the snow-covered mountains, 2500 meters high".
JUDGE BURKE: But the question now seems to revolve around the fact of natural history, of whether there is such a mountain or not. It ought not to be ultimately such a mystery. Either there is or there isn't; it can be proven.
BY DR. MULLER-TORGOW:
Q. Witness, you said that you were informed to come back to Kalavrita.
A. Yes.
Q. Who informed you of that?
A. The German colonel from Patras let me know that I should return to Kalavrita.
Q. Witness, in June 1944 the German soldiers came for the third time to Kalavrita and again took along 30,000 pieces of cattle. How did that happen at this time?
A. I never told the Tribunal such a thing. First of all, nothing happened there because in Kalavrita there were only ruins and blackdressed widows.
Q. May I ask you to repeat that please?
(Answer repeated by the English-German interpreter)
Witness, you said then that two monasteries were burned and near one of them some monks had been thrown into a gorge from there.
A. That's correct. They had been pushed down from a rock into the depths -- down the precipice.
Q. Did you see that yourself?
A. No, but this had been told me by the Bishop of Afxentios, as well as by the Metropolite of Kalavrita.
Q. Witness, let us return to the school for a moment -- I mean in front of the school. No doubt it was this way: Women and children were locked up there while the men gathered in front of the church. Is that correct?
A Yes, we first had boon told to gather, everybody, men, women and children as well, in front of the cathedral but then the plans were changed and we had to gather in the school while the men were kept in the courtyard of the school and the women locked up in the school building.
Q How many floors did the school have?
A Two.
Q Two? Do you mean by that the first floor and the second floor or do you mean first, second, and third floor?
A I mean the ground floor and one floor above which was being used.
Q And how was the school built?
A With stone. It had been, it was built with stone.
Q And this school was lit up by gasoline? How was that done?
A They naturally poured the gasoline over the wooden doors and over other wooden items, and over the floor too - the floor and the ceiling were also of wood.
Q And how many women and children were in there? How many women and children were able to escape?
A Everybody was saved with the exception of an old woman who had been trampled upon and the others had wounds but nobody died except this woman.
Q Witness, you said before this action in Kalavrita, 78 German soldiers had been taken prisoner and were taken care of and were treated well in Kalavrita.
A Yes, and I can tell you that they hod been placed in the same school building and that we had given them meat and everything, fed them very carefully and took care of them in the same school building that afterwards was burned.
Q Do you know witness, what became of those 78 prisoners?
A Yes, they were then transferred from Kalavrita to a village by the name of Planiterou, approximately 30 kilometers from Kalavrita.
Q In what direction?
A Southeast, rather to the east.
Q Witness, do you know anything about the village Marsi?
A Yes, I know of that.
Q That is also situated southeast of Kalavrita.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Can we have the witness' answer to the last question, please?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I know Marsi.
BY DR. MUELLER-TORGOW:
Q Do you know, witness, that in Marsi before the so-called action in Kalavrita, that in Marsi they found the same number of mutilated German soldiers as you saw as prisoners in Kalavrita?
A I know that about five days after the destruction of Kalavrita and after a battle between the Germans and the Greek Liberation Fighters, these German soldiers were killed as a retaliation for the massacre of Kalavrita.
Q In your opinion then, these soldiers were killed after this action in Kalavrita. Is that right?
A That is not my opinion, but the Major of the British Commandos Anthony and the Greek Major Sphagianos know that.
Q Witness, what is your opinion? In your opinion, are these 78 murdered German soldiers connected in any way with the 78 prisoners which you saw? I would like to point out to you in this connection that these bodies were already found on the 7th of December.
A I know from official sources that the bodies of these German soldiers have been found about the 17th of December. Why should they have been killed just during the destruction of Kalavrita since the Greeks hold them captured since three months and had treated and fed them well? There was no reason at all to kill them since they had kept them for three months and a half.
Q Witness, did you ever think about why the men of whom you told us, were killed in Kalavrita?
A Yes, I know perfectly what was the idea -- because the Germans who wanted to break the Greek resistance had just chosen the sacred place of the Greek country where the liberation had been announced and started about 130 years ago and so as a symbol they wanted to destroy the very sacred place of the liberation of Greece.
Q Witness, I return once more to the date. The prosecution has submitted this in document book 20 in document No. 1246, Exhibit 473, this is the War Diary No. 3, 68th Army Corps, up to the 31st of December 1943. There it says on cage 64 in the German text - from the 1st July to the 31st December. There it says under 8th of December, 1943, "Peloponnesus according to a testimony of two refugees from the 5th Battalion, 749th Infantry Regiment which was destroyed on the 19th of October at Kalavrita, the company commander Schober who had been taken prisoner and 78 men are alleged to have been shot on the 7th of December in the mountains cast of Kalavrita." Witness, do you maintain your statement that the German prisoners were not killed until after the action at Kalavrita?
A Yes. That is the truth. I insist upon it and I can prove it.
