Q Those were the troops in Serbia excluding the security battalions which you are unable to recall?
A I didn't understand the question.
Q And those four divisions and additional infantry regiments of which you spoke, 50 to 60 thousand men, are the troops in Serbia, not including the security battalions?
A This figure constitutes the troops in Serbia, divisions and security troops.
Q And those were in addition to the troops in Greece?
A Yes.
Q You have spoken about the chief of staff, various chiefs of staff which you had and the general staff. Will you tell the Tribunal what the duties of the chief of staff were, particularly with reference to the period when you were armed forces commander Southeast?
A The chief of Staff had charge of all affairs within the staff. He had to inform his commander in chief about the important matters and to make sure that the various department chiefs reported to him and that he in turn made this report. The current affairs of a not fundamental and basic nature. He was in a position to deal with himself, inasmuch as they concerned orders and instructions to lower echelons, he had to submit those to the commander in chief for signature and execution. The chief of staff is not concerned, with any matters of judicial activities.
Q Now, you say that he had charge of all the staff duties, Who were the members of a staff, what you call a generalstab?
A That would be department Ia. That is the department in charge of operations, troop movements, etc. Then department Ic, that is the intelligence service, and the quartermaster department. That deals with supplies, food rations, etc., and then there arc the departments for personnel matters and the medical service and the veterinary service and the administration.
The administration dealt with food supplies, clothing, etc.
THE PRESIDENT: Pardon me please. If we recess without leaving our positions, I think perhaps the mechanical difficulties can bo taken care of.
(A recess was taken.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 19 September 1947).WILHELM LIST - Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed, Mr. Prosecutor.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q Witness, just before we suspended you were detailing the composition of a general staff. You spoke of the duties of the chief of staff, stating that he had charge of all of the duties that were performed by the various staff members; that the chief of staff had to. . inform the commander - in your case that would be the commanding general or the commanding field marshal - on all important matters; that the chief of staff had to be sure that all of the departmental chiefs reported to him as chief of staff about the various matters that occurred within their departments and that he in turn passed this information on to you. Do you recall that?
A Yes.
Q And then you indicated the positions of some of the staff members, the Ia who is the operations officer, and that I believe is similar to the G3 in a general staff in the United States Army. Are you familiar with the American terminology?
A No.
Q Thank you. And the Ic who was in charge of intelligence, the quartermaster and various other general staff officers, including those in charge of personnel, medical matters, veterinary matters and administrative matters.
Now, what was the rank of your chief of staff when you were Armed Forces Commander South-East?
A. Foertsch was at that time a Colonel.
Q Now, what was the rank of his subordinates in the staff, that is, the Ia, Ic, quartermaster, and so forth?
A They were at that time, as far as I can remember, lieutenant colonels. Whether Kuebler was at that time already a full colonel I don't know.
Q But in any event the chief of staff or the members of the staff did not have general officer rank?
A Later on, yes; not at that time.
Q Yes; but then?
AAt that time, no.
Q Any orders that they issued were issued in your name?
A When I had given instructions, then, yes. As far as I know I didn't sign them in my own hand. Most of the orders which I issued, I signed myself.
Q Were any of them authorized to issue orders on your behalf?
A That is very difficult to say. Generally speaking, as far as I remember, the signature would read: "On behalf of" even if the order did not originate with me, but with the High Command of the Army; but when I had given the instruction, then the department chief concerned or the chief of staff would act on his own responsibility.
Q Well, if an order came down from the OKW it would be addressed to you as Armed Forces Commander South-East, would it not?
A Yes, it would be addressed to the office of the Wehrmacht Commander South-East.
Q And it was not addressed to one of your staff members?
A No, but on principle it was addressed to the official office of the Armed Forces Commander. It would not be addressed to me personally or to my particular department. It was just addressed to the Armed Forces Commander South-East as the responsible office, that is, not concerning the person of the Armed Forces Commander, but his official capacity and then within his office the orders would be passed on to the various departments which were responsible for their carrying out.
Q Well now, these departments, when they passed the orders on, were acting for you, were they not?
Cuurt V Case VII
A. I don't think we are getting this quite clear. The departments worked for the official office of the Wehrmacht Commander South-East and within this office there was a large machinery of offices working and the Question was now whether the document concerned had to he submitted to the Armed Forces Commander South-East personally or whether it would be dealt with within the various departments.
I believe one has to make a difference between the person of the Armed Forces Commander South-East and his office irrespective of person. It was customary in the Army to say the "Armed Forces Commander" or "Commander in Chief" meaning only his office. In this case it was the Armed Forces Commander South-East. So if some enlisted men needed uniforms and this request was addressed to the Armed Forces Commander South-East, the request would be dealt with by the office and not by the Armed Forces Commander in person. One has to make a difference between the concept of his official office and his person.
Q. Well, let's take as an example, suppose the Quartermaster general in the OKW staff decided that all of the troops in your area should wear hob--nail boots and the appropriate order was sent down? That order could be passed on without referring it to you by the Quartermaster of your staff. Isn't that so?
A. In this case that would have been possible. Of course, he would inform me if it were a matter which concerned the troops generally.
Q. And when he passed the order on he would pass it on in your name, but being done by him as the Quartermaster officer?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, at this same time you also held a position as commanding general of the 12th-Army. Is that so?
A. As Commander in Chief of the 12th Army. I think in the American Army the corresponding position would be that of Commanding General.
Q. Yes, commander in chief, excuse me. And did you have a staff on the 12th Army, a general staff?
A. No. It was exactly the same staff. There was only one staff.
Q Now, did the 12th Army have any troops down there?
A Yes.
Q How many troops did the 12th Army have?
AAs I said this morning, there were at the beginning of the occupation period about four and a half divisions and a general command.
Q And the same staff functioned as your general staff for you both in your positions as commander in chief of the 12th Army and as Armed Forces Commander -- South-East?
A Yes.
Q Now, did your staff officers, including the chief of staff, have any authority to issue orders without your consent?
A I have already stated that they had that possibility; that the example which you gave, for instance, that would have been possible; such an order could have been issued and passed on without my consent or at least without me being informed previously or without my consent being obtained previously. Later I would have been informed.
Q Yes, but disregarding those types of administrative orders, letting those aside, did they have the authority to issue other orders of their own volition?
A That is very difficult to say here and it is difficult to comprehend for people who have not grown up within the German Armed Forces and know all the conditions prevailing there. They had the right in case an order was extremely urgent. For instance, orders to a commanding general, if the order was to the effect that the respective commanding general had to carry it out, execute it and pass it on in that case they did not have any authority. But when matters were concerned which the commanding general would not have to carry out in person but again a subordinate office of his then they had the possibility.
Q Let's at the moment disregard orders that came down from either OKW or OKH. Did your chief of staff or any of the members of your general staff, either in the 12th Army or in the Supreme South-East, have any authority to initiate on their own and pass on those orders to lower troop units without consulting you?
A I previously stated to which extent it was possible for them. I was not concerned in my statement whether they were orders from the OKH or OKW. They might also be forders from the Supreme Command South-East, that is, orders for which the commanding general was not the person who executed them.
Q And at a later time would any such orders that they initiated and passed on to lower troops be made known to you?
A That depended on what matters were concerned. If not very important matters were concerned then perhaps I was not informed. Generally speaking, I would have been informed but there was a multitude of things which were carried out by departments Ia, IIa, Ic, et cetera. I was not informed, as matter of course, if the department chief concerned was of the opinion that it wasn't necessary that the commanding chief was informed. It was a general custom in the whole German army.
Q Did they give tactical orders without your knowledge?
A Tactical orders of a larger extent, no.
Q Well, how big an operational order could they give without consulting you?
A I cannot state that here in theory. That is quite impossible. It depended on the actual situation in how far the chief or the la believed to be able to act independently and just told the Army Corps Commands it had to be done in such and such manner.
Q And if he did that you would later find out about it?
A Yes, I believe that later on I would have obtained information about these things. It couldn't be any different.
Q And if an improper order had been given, one with which you disagreed, you would, when you heard about it, take steps to correct it?
A That again is difficult to say theoretically what I would have done. Again it would depend on the individual case in which manner I would have to intervene.
Q And one last question on the staff. You said; as I recall it; the duties of the chief involed the coordination of all the staff information that came and the presentation to you of that information?
A Yes. It was his task to be responsible for a uniform carrying cut of all the work within the staff.
Q And sometimes he would do that by showing you reports and other times by giving you an oral summary?
A No; that is not the correct concept of the activities of such a staff. There was such a multitude of departments in such a staff and in general the chief of staff was in charge of things and he would say to the department chief concerned; "Go and tell this to the commander in chief," and on other occasions he would submit it himself. On other occasions again he would just summarize and give the report in summary.
Q Do you recall telling Dr. Laternser on Wednesday that the main form of giving you information was a summarized report?
A I did say that to Dr. Laternser but in answer to a very specific question; that is; the question of the reports that had come in; but now I have been asked by the Prosecution about the summary of the activities of the various department with the supreme command and that is something different. The chief could not; for instance; report matters of Department IV-a; that is; supplies and so forth. Of course he could not give detailed reports on that.
Q But he could give you general reports about it?
A Even that he did not do concerning these departments --- the department chiefs themselves came to report to me. He might maybe say, "A certain thing has happened in a certain department and the chief concerned will come and report to you," or "The army doctor will come and report to you, but the report in detail was then given by the army physician.
Q Do you recall Exhibit 15 which is the Hitler Order of 9 June 1941 which details you as the Wehrmacht Commander South-East?
A Yes.
Q And that superseded a prior order known as Hitler Order 29, did it not?
A No.
Q And that is Exhibit 9, the Hitler Order No. 29. Incidentally, the Hitler Order No. 29 is dated 17 May 1941. I think maybe we can pass to the Order of 9 June 1941, Exhibit 13. Now, that order subordinated to you the Commander Serbia?
A Yes. That was the Hitler order 31. That is correct.
Q And do you recall a provision in that order which stated that with the exception of the conduct of offensive air warfare, the Wehrmacht Commander South-East is to bring together in a unified control all military questions of the Wehrmacht which arise from the occupation, security, supply, transport and communication affairs of the occupied south-East area? This is to be done for all throe Wehrmacht branches. Do you recall that provision in the order?
A. Yes.
Q. Then, the order further provides, "And he is to make decisions in terms of the overall responsibility which falls to the Wehrmacht in the Southeast area."
A. Yes.
Q. Then, it provides that the "leadership will be simplified in the branches of the Wehrmacht, and the high Command of the Wehrmacht m;ill be relieved of many individual questions and differences of opinion which are the inevitable result of having all Wehrmacht branches working side by side in the same area."
A. Yes.
Q. And then it lists in some detail the duties which are you responsible for. First, the safeguarding of a unificed defense, Do you recall that?
A. Yes indeed.
Q. And the sentence listed "directions for the ocean-transport movement in the near future".
A. Yes.
Q. And "the control of supply on land and on sea for all Wehrmacht branches in the Balkans."
A Yes.
Q. "Supervision over the military administration to be exercised by the command occupied by the German troops."
A. Yes, that's right.
Q. And then do you recall the supplement to that order which went along with it, which stated that the Wehrmacht Commander South case has to support the Reich Plenipotentiary in every respect and to confer with him in the measures he prepares for Greece?
A. Yes.
Q. And then it provided that "the Plenipotentiary in Greece was to keep you informed on political questions?
A. Yes.
Q. And that "control of propaganda in Greece is the duty of the foreign office which is to cooperate with the High Command of the Wehrmacht in this matter?"
A. Yes.
Q. And then do you recall that on 15 June a regulation or the execution of the Hitler Order no. 31, signed by Keitel, was sent down?
A. Yes.
Q. And that provides in part that the Wehrmacht Commander Southeast is the sole command authority of the Wehrmacht in the Balkans concerning all those duties for which he is responsible pursuant to Directive 31?
A. Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Denney, pardon me. Did you refer to this last regulation as an exhibit?
MR. DENNEY: I beg your pardon, Your Honor. This is Exhibit 16. The one to which I was referring previously was Exhibit 15, Exhibit 15, at the bottom of Page 55 of Document Book I. And Exhibit 16 begins at Page 60 of Document Book I.
THE PRESIDENT: Thank you.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. And still referring to Exhibit 16, the regulation for the execution of Directive 31, administrative offices had been put at the disposal of the Wehrmacht Commander Southeast by OKW--OKH; I beg your pardon.
A. Yes.
Q. And then over on page 1, the second page of the communication in Document Book I, still Exhibit 16, "The Wehrmacht Commander will be informed by the respective offices of the OKW concerning current military political and economic directives and events."
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall that it also provided that Wehrmacht units would regulate the delivergy of gazettes?
A. I can't recall that. I can't recall the contents at the moment.
Q. Well, do you recall that at the end of the order it said that daily reports would be submitted to OKW and OKH?
A. Yes.
Q. And monthly reports to OKH concerning the problems or military administration?
A. I cannot recall that at the moment, but it is correct. I have read this Directive 31, but not so throughly that I know it by heart, although I have heard it here several times. I only can recall the general contents.
Q. I don't want to take advantage of you at all. I'm very sorry. I thought perhaps you'd read it. If you wish I'd be glad to give you a copy of it so you can read it. If Your honors please, He is being submitted a German copy of the document which I've just been reacting.
Have you had an opportunity to look at the order?
A. Yes indeed; thank you.
Q. You're welcome. And you find in there air those provisions which I read?
A. Yes indeed.
Q. Do you recall Dr. Laternser's asking you about an Exhibit No. 88 which was an order of General Boehme? This document, if Your Honors please, is on Page 34 of the English Document Book III, and Page 27 of the German Document Book III, that being an order of General Boehme of 10 October 1941. And if I remember correctly, you stated that the first time you knew about this order was here in Nurnberg?
A. Yes, that's right.
Q. And you had nothing to indicate to you at that time that this order was going to come out?
A. I don't understand the question.
Q. Well, perhaps I can rephrase it for you. You did not know on 10 October or at any time that General Boehme was going to issue such an order?
A. No.
Q. And as far as you know, there was no way of your knowing about that?
A. No.
Q. And you told Dr. Laternser that you believed that OKW had issued this order to him directly?
A. No; I have never maintained that.
Q. I'd like to have the witness handed Exhibit 88 in the German. That's on Page 34; Your Honors; of Document Book III.
Do you note at the top of that Exhibit; that is; General Boehme's order; is the note "an information copy"?
A. Yes.
Q. Excuse me. "An information copy was directed to the office of the Wehrmacht Commander Southeast; but you never saw it?
A. I have said that the order had been issued on the 10th of October by General Boehme; and merely an information copy was sent to the Armed Forces Commander Southeast. Since I cannot remember ever to have seen or known that order; since the order came as an information copy; it's quite possible that it took a longer time because it did not actually affect the Armed Forces Command Southeast; and since on the morning of the 13th of October I was not an service any longer. I can be sure that I did not receive the order. Those were my statements to Dr. Laternser; and I added that if I had received the order it would have had to be initialed by me.
Q. And you were taken sick on the 15th of October and operated on in a hospital in Athens on the 17th, and you never received this order and you had no way of knowing that the order was going to be given out?
A. No.
Q. And until you got here to Nurnberg you never did know that the order was given out?
A. No.
MR. DENNEY: Will you please hand the witness Exhibit 53, Document Book 2, which appears at page 67 of that book?
If Your Honors please, it is Exhibit 53, Document Book II, page 67 in the English, and I am sorry I don't have the German page. Perhaps Dr. Laternser can help me.
DR. LATERNSER: Page 52 of the German, page 67 of the English.
MR. DENNEY: Page 67 of the Document Book II, Your Honor, Exhibit 53, and wage 34 of Document Book 3, Exhibit 88.
Q. Do you recall testifying with reference to Exhibit 53, the Neitel order of 16 September 1941, that you received the order from Keitel, that you wore opposed to it, but that you passed it on?
A. Yes.
Q. I now direct your attention to the order number of the order of 16 September 1941, Exhibit 53; you will note that the OKW file number of the order is 002060/41; that is the order which you -(interrupted)
A. Just a moment, please.
Q. You will find it on page 32 of the Document Book which you have.
A. Yes, it is right.
Q. That is the OKW order number, is it not, 002060/41?
A. Yes.
Q. And that is the order that you passed on?
A. This order arrived with copies for the offices to which it was to be passed on by us, that is the order arrived already complete with copies which we had to pass on,-- that cannot be seen from that particular copy here, but from the photostat.
Q. Yes, and now I direct your attention to the Boehme Order of 10 October, about which you have told us you know nothing, under subject -- please note the reference, the reference is to "Chief of OKW, 002060/41, Top Secret, 16 September 1941." That is Exhibit 88.
A. May I see the document again?
Q. You will find that at page 27 in the German Document Book III; it is Exhibit 88, Boehme Order 10 October 1941.
A. Yes.
Q. So the Boehme Order of 10 October 1941 was based on the Keitel Order of 16 September 1941, which you passed down, was it not?
A. Yes.
Q. And it wasin this Boehme Order of 10 October 1941 that he ordered that for each killed or murdered German soldier or Volksdautschen, men women or children, 100 prisoners or hostages were to be shot and that for each wounded German soldier or Volksdeutschen 50 prisoners or hostages were to be shot?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall now that perhaps the Boehme Order was based on the Keitel Order which you had passed down?
A. That it was based on the Keitel Order was always clear to me.
If I may say so, I think there is an error here. In my statement to Dr. Laternser I have never said that for the issuance of this order of 10 October Boehme had received an immediate order by the OKW. I had never made a remark to that effect, instead when I was going to say "I could assume"....the prosecutor intervened and said I was not entitled to make an argument.
I could not assume anything what Boehme might have thought. I was going to say something quite different. If I am now being reproached with having said that the Boehme Order could be traced to an immediate order by OKW, and that it was not based on this order of 16 September, but instead of that on a second order, that is erroneous. All I wanted to do was to give my grounds for this assumption, and in that I was interrupted by the Prosecution. I think Dr. Laternser will be able to affirm that.
Q. I am very sorry if I interrupted you. Turning now to the question of task forces Rosenberg -- excuse me, I don't think you need those books any more. Do you remember Dr. Laternser questioning you about the letter from Rosenberg to Borman, which was Exhibit 4, which appears at page 11 of the English text, and page 11 of the German text in Book I -- I beg your pardon, it is page 8 of the English text and page 6 of the German text, Your Honor., in which Rosenberg mentions to Borman that you are cooperating with him with reference to certain cultural researches that were being carried on in the southeast?
A. Rosenberg maintains that.
Q. And you said that that wasn't so, what he said?
A. Rosenberg has written a private letter and I cannot prevent him writing private letters. He wrote that I had contact with him, and that is not correct, because I have never had contact with Rosenberg. I have stated that I only met Rosenberg once on the occasion of a party, and I did not talk with him, and later on I did not have any contact with him. The letter of Rosenberg contains a private opinion of Rosenberg's, and this is erroneous because he states what I had biven him permission to look at archieves in Belgrade. No further writes that I would possible allow the same for Salonika. I have later stated that I recall that Lt. von Ingram had visited me, and I received him first of all because he had got the Knights Cross in the Eastern Campaign, and for that reason I received him and he told me that he had permission to look at archives, and on this occasion he mentioned material which night be directed against the Reich, and I told him that I expected everything to go in order, and that no special events would occur.
And that was the extent of our cooperation, if you can call it cooperation, in the cultural sphere. Rosenberg further states that I had told him, or rather his representatives, that the confiscation of this material would be carried out by the SD, the Security Service. I can only say that the SD was an unknown quantity to me at that time.
Q. For whom did Lt. von Ingram work?
A. For Rosenberg.
Q. And as such you had he power or authority to give him any orders?
A. No.
Q. And referring you now to Exhibit 10, which is page 38 of the English Document Book I, and on page 27 of the German Document Book I, Dr. Laternser, I believe, directed your attention to that yesterday, wherein the commandant of the Army rear area stated that in compliance with orders of the 12th Army of April 19, 1941, Department I-c, Order Humber Secret, areas in operation in the area of the 12th Army, Special Detachment, Reichsleader Rosenberg, which has the task of examining states libraries, archives, Offices of High Church Authorities, Free Mason lodges, and Jewish organizations for political incidents directed against the Reich and of having the material in question confiscated; you don't recall any such order given by the 12th Army on 19th April 1941?
A No. I may add that the prosecutor asked me an hour ago about the activities of the Staff; this here is a case where without doubt the department I-c issued an order without previously informing the commander in chief, because they were obviously of the opinion that a department of the Reich was concerned. Material was to be sorted and evaluated and obviously Lt. von Ingram approached this Department I-c, and consequently Department I-c issued this order, in the opinion and correct assumption that it was not necessary to inform the commander in chief. It must be considered that the period during which this happened was a period of very tense operational auctions. If I remember correctly this Rosenberg letter was written during the April days of that year, around about the 20th.
Q Yes, I believe it was written on the 23rd. Just a moment, yes, it was written on April 23. By the 23rd of April you were already undergoing the second capitulation in Greece, weren't you, and had not the Thracian Army surrendered on the 9th and had not the Epirus Army surrendered on the 21st?
A The Epirus Army surrendered on the 21st, and one can assume that it took a certain amount of time until Rosenberg received an answer from the person whom he sent to Greece, therefore this discussion could have only been at a previous time. Besides the order of the Department I-c, I think you just read it, is dated 19 April -- that is then it was right in the middle of the severest actions, just before the Army capitulated; at that time the Commander in Chief had different things to do than to be concerned with a lieutenant sent by Rosenberg who wants to look at a few archives.
Q In view of that no one bothered to tell you that this task force Rosenberg was carrying on its activities in this area?
A I learned about that through the report by Lt. von Ingram, otherwise I might not even have heard about it, and most likely I wouldn't have heard about it.
Q When did Lt. von Ingram come to see you, do you recall?
A I cannot say that for certain. It must have been, as far as I recollect, in Saloniki, and according to this letter of Rosenberg it must have been before 23 April, unless this letter of Rosenberg's is based on a discussion with the Department I-c. In any case it was before 26 April, because on the 27th of April I went to Athens. In this connection may I point out something else -- in the rear area of the Army it says in an order, which was also only made known to me here, that confiscation of material is to be carried out by the secret field police. This shows clearly that it was not to be done by the SD, but by the secret field police, because no SD was subordinate to the commander of the rear area of the Army.
Q They were SD people, weren't they, these Rosenberg people?
A I don't know.
Q In any event you couldn't give them any orders?
A No.
Q Will you please hand the witness Document Book II; referring now to Exhibit 68, which appears at page 137 of Document Book 2, in English - I am sorry I don't have the German page, Your Honor - it is just a one page exhibit.
Q What kind of a document is it, please? It doesn't give the exhibit number here, what is the document number? 105? All right, I have got it.
Q You will note that is dated 2 October 1941, and comes from your I-c, and is addressed to the Detachment Rosenberg, and says, "Effective 1 October 1941, Detachment Rosenberg is assigned for rations, quarters and for discipline to Commander South Greece. Lt. Ritter von Ingram, the leader of the Detachment, is to make contact immediately with the Staff of the Commander Southern Greece." "For Wehrmacht Commander Southeast, The Chief of the General Staff, Colonel General Staff Corps."
A Yes, that is right.