THE MARSHAL: All persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.
The Tribunal is again in session.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q Field Marshal, before recess I asked you what measures you took to put down the insurgents' uprising in Jugoslavia and to pacify the country.
A I had given an order of the 5th of September and on the 13th of September demanded from the OKW that a uniform leadership may be installed in Serbia and for this purpose I demanded reinforcements.
Q Did you also tell your troops to take measures against the relatives of those people who were fighting against your troops?
A Yes.
Q Why was that done?
A To the extent that these relatives were at the same time helpers of the partisans -- this was done for the security of the troops. These people were supposed to be interned; in the same manner as it has been ordered by the Control Council Law that all people who are endangering the occupation forces be interned, in the same manner this order is to be understood.
Q Did you also expect to get some information from the relatives as to where their people were fighting, with what units and where those units were located?
A No, these members of the families which were to be interned here I did not expect to give information about the troop units. Besides we cannot talk about troop units but only about insurgent bands.
Q Did you never try to coerce the population into giving information about the whereabouts of the insurgent units?
A The troops might have tried that.
Q Will you turn to Exhibit 125 in Document Book V? It is the first document in the document book. This is a report of Councillor of State, Dr. Turner, and I am particularly interested in the last page of that report. It is on page 6 of the English, and, perhaps 5 or 6 of the German. The last paragraph of the report above the signature of State Councillor Turner. Do you have it?
That paragraph reads: "Last but not least, a proclamation would be released in the Belgrade area allowing a deadline of a very few hours in which it is requested that all arms and ammunition and explosives, etc be surrendered. Belgrade should be cut off during this period and a warning be published that if arms and such were found, not only the one in possession of arms but also the proprietor of the house will be shot without legal proceedings. Thus the proprietors themselves would be impelled to give information against others in order not to become liable for this punishment."
Did information of that nature ever reach you.
A. No, that is the report of State Councillor Thurner. It is shown from the text that it is addressed to the Plenipotentiary Commanding General in Serbia, who then submitted this memorandum to me.
Q. You don't really having any knowledge about the execution of proprietors of certain houses without legal proceedings in order to coerce the proprietors to give information against others?
A. No.
Q. Field Marshall, do you know whether your troops ever punished civilians in Yugoslavia for not warning the German troops beforehand that the insurgents were about to attack?
A. From a report which I have read here amongst these documents I can take this as a fact.
Q. Did you agree with such procedure?
A. To what extent the circumstances justified a summary court martial procedure, I cannot now judge. That can only be judge taking into consideration all the events that occurred at that time.
Q. Will you turn to Exhibit 32, Document Book I; this is on page 113 of the English and page 87 of the German; do you have it?
A. Yes.
Q. This is a report from a Battalion Commander to the 704th Infantry Division. The first two paragraphs read: "On August 16 1941 the Commander in Serbia made known by radio that a village in which a car of the Wehrmacht had been shot at, had been levelled to the ground, and that the inhabitants had been shot to death and hanged.
"The inhabitants had seen the preparations for the attack and had omitted to notify the police post situated nearby or to warn the occupants of the car. Therefore, they became accessories to the crime."
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honor, I don't know whether at the time I already pointed out the error in translation. I have made a note here and I am asking to have the last part of the first paragraph translated again by the interpreters.
JUDGE CARTER: I think it is true that some changes in the translation have already been made.
DR. LATERNSER: Yes, do I recollect correctly that it was changed to "inhabitants had been shot to death and hanged," and not "the inhabitants had been shot to death and hanged."
JUDGE CARTER: That is right.
Q. (continue Did you ever receive information regarding this particular incident, Field Marshal?
A. I have already stated I cannot recollect individual occurrences. The report was made by the 704th Infantry Division and I don't remember now whether I received it or not.
Q. Do you remember generally whether the inhabitants had been considered accessories to crimes simply because they did not reveal that an attack was about to take place on your troops?
A. I have already testified that on the basis of these documents I gained this knowledge.
Q. The first time you had any information in that respect was when you came to Nurnberg?
A. No, I did not express it that way. I said I do not recollect whether or not I received such reports, details at least have r t remained in my memory.
Q. Can you recall what criteria was used in determining communists in occupied Yugoslavia?
A. Communists have to be understood in this respect here as insurgents. How that was handled in detail by the troops and how it was ascertained in detail I cannot remember and I do not know.
Q. Did you ever take measures against communists who were simply civilians living in Yugoslavia and who were not part of the insurgent units?
A. I must assume, and I had to assume they were always insurgents, that these concepts, insurgents and communists coincide here in this case.
Q. Will you turn to Exhibit 67, Document Book II; this is on page 124 of the English and page 96 of the German. Will you turn to second page of that report, which is on page 125 of the English, and I believe page 97 of the German.
This is report of the 704th Infantry Division, dated 22 Sept 1941, and then turn to the final page of the report, the next page I believe in your document book, -- to the last paragraph, I beg your pardon, to the next to least paragraph, last sentence, "All five were led off the road to the front of the stabel of Krstivoj about 200 meters away. A machine gun was in position, all five were shot to death, the stable was burned down. The five belonged to a wealthy esteemed family, up to now, no one in the entire village has joined the Communists." Do you know whether mistakes of this kind were made on a large scale or not?
A. I did not know anything of that kind. If this description were correct that would constitute an excess by the troops.
Q. Would you in this case have tried the five persons by summary court martial before they were executed?
A. That is not shown by the document. In this case as it is described here, I cannot assume this. The troops in this case transgressed their orders and this constitutes an excess.
Q. Did you say then, Field Marshal, that to your knowledge none of your troops ever forced the inhabitants to furnish information about the insurgent troops except for the one instance which you recall form the documents introduced here?
A. I can't say that in detail.
Q. Would you have been in favor of taking coersive measures against the inhabitants in order that they should tell you where units fighting on their behalf were vacated, and when they intended to attack your troops?
A. That depends on the connection between these things. If the inhabitants participate clearly with the bands, then coersive measures are justified.
Q. Are you familiar with Article 44 of the Hague Regulations, Field Marshall, --- Article 44 reads, "A participant is forbidden to force the inhabitants of a territory occupied by it to furnish information about the Army of the other belligerent or abouts its means of defense." Is that provision known to you?
A. Yes, this provision is known to me. That means statements about the enemy army, but not concerning the inhabitants or insurgents.
Q. Field Marshal, you stated that you were opposed to the Nazi Policy regarding the jews?
A. Yes.
Q. In so far as this policy was known to me at all. Did you ever receive reports that you can now remember generally, to the effect that Jews were being executed throughout Yugoslavia?
A. Yes, these reports repeatedly expressed that Jews and communists were executed. If this is here expressed in this way I understand by this that the Jews and communists mentioned her were insurgents and that they were not executed for racial reasons. I can well understand from the point of view of the jews that they worked against the Germans and that they combined with the Communists. I say I can well understand that on the basis of events which had occurred. All these things that were at that time now known to me, but that docs not justify the fact that they now actively worked against us, and if they did that as insurgents, then they were caught as insurgents and punished as such.
Q. Why should the Jews have been opposed to the Germans in Yugoslavia if no measures had been taken against them in Yugoslavia?
A. As a consequence of their racial connection, generally speaking, with other Jews.
Q. And do you suppose that the Yugoslavia Jews know in 1941 that other Jews in Germany and Poland were being executed?
A. I assume that the *oscow propaganda made use of these facts in order to win the Jews for their purposes, that is the communist revolution.
Q. Field Marshall, now turn to Exhibit 34 in Document Book 1, which is on page 93 of the German and page 113 of the English. I beg your pardon, I mean Exhibit 30, which is on page 99 of the English and page 77 of the German. I am particularly concerned with the report from the Ger man liaison officer to the Wehrmacht Command Southeast, dated Belgrade August 8, 1941,----that begins on page 104 of the English and I think about four or fine pages from the beginning, of Exhibit 30, in the German Document Book.
Q.- Now, will you turn to the fourth paragraph from the beginning of this report?
A.- That is the report of August 8?
Q.- Yes. You will sec on the next page, that is sent for information to Wehrmacht Commander Southeast, 1-C, Athens. Then turn to the first, second, third, fourth paragraph, beginning, "Many insecure elements are said to have penetrated into the police force." Do you have it?
A.- Yes.
Q.- "Many insecure elements are said to have penetrated into the police force. It was to be observed that individual Serbian policemen and police patrols showed complete disinterest in the occurrences in their proximity. They prefer to frequent well lighted streets, whilst in the dark sidestreets no policemen are to be seen. Attention must be drawn to the fact that the designation of the Serbian police by black numbers printed on a red arm band is insufficient, as these numbers can hardly be read by day and not at all at night. In case of encroachments committed by members of the police there is no possibility to identify the guilty person. Often it could be determined that jews walked about without the prescribed yellow arm band. Also the jews who were baptised "Christians", and who have besides changed their names, are not yet taken care of. It would be advisable to find out at the ecclesiastic matriculation offices which jews were baptised in recent years."
Did any information come to you that Jews in Serbia were being made to wear yellow arm bands?
A.- No, that was not known to me. I wasn't aware of it.
Q.- Then will you turn to Exhibit 125, Document Book V, -- this is a report which we have looked at previously from Councillor of State Dr. Thurner, dated Belgrade 21 September 1941; will you turn again to to the last page, of that report which is on page 6 of the English, and I believe page 5 or 6 of the German, the next to last paragraph:
"At the same time all active officers and NCO's are to be arrested with the exception of those who put themselves at the disposal of the government Neditch immediately, Consideration towards officers, who in the last months worked professionally, does not seem to be appropriate because these persons by virtue of their feeling of solidarity were no doubt used in the communications service or were put in harness in some way, likewise the arrest of all Jews which has already started, is to be carried out more drastically and the gypsies too, are to be arrested." Do you recall this report?
A.- I have already said before that this is a report of State Councilor Thurner to the Plenipotentiary Commanding General of Serbia, a report which never reached me, but in this connection I must state that State Councilor Thurner was at the same time SS Obergruppenfuehrer and Prussian State Councillor; he was a very dominating person and a very inscrutable person, a man who went his own way. I must remind you that I have testified here that I was not at all informed of the reforming of the Serbian government, and only days later did I receive any report, that I learned from newspapers only about the arming of the Serbian police, which was an important matter; that I told State Councillor Thurner to see me and pointed out to him his duties. Hard words fell on that occasion, because State Councilor Thurner repeatedly told me he was independent. Without doubt in this case this State Councilor Thurner wanted to make use of General Boehme when he started his activities. It seems entirely incomprehensive to me that State Councillor Thurner was immediately subordinate to General Danckelmann, and that he here submits a report directly to the Commanding General of Serbia, that was not within his competence. This whole report showed that he intended to make use and to influence General Boehme and to familiarize him with his ideas.
There can be no doubt that the chief of the administration staff in Serbia, went his own way which he hid at least with respect to my person, just the same as nothing was clear concerning the Government and the armed police. That can also be seen by one of my teletypes, and one of my communications, where I demanded that now at least I would have to be informed about the most important events in Serbia.
Q.- You wrote that I believe on the 16 of February to the OKW, and the OKW wrote back to you, and said you will be in complete charge in the Southeast, and will have full executive powers; wasn't that on the 16 of September 1941 when you demanded that you be given full power in the Southeast, so that events like you being misinformed or uninformed be brought to an end?
A.- I had the executive power already before. That had nothing to do with that. As of the 23rd of June, I was Commander in Chief Southeast. But in this case all that was concerned was that State Councilor Thurner only did what he deemed necessary and advisable, and he did not inform me and his military commander did not do that either. The documents too show that State Councillor Thurner quite often issued orders on his own. initiative, and signed them "Military Commander, or Plenipotentiary Commanding General, with the signature: Chief of Administrative Staff, Thurner." Therefore, it happened that doubtlessly I was actually not informed about quite a number of occurrences, and I can only assure you with emphasis that the Jewish problem in Serbia, as well as in Greece, did not exist as far as I was concerned.
Q.- Were you the most powerful individual in the southeast?
A.- How do you mean that?
A.- Were you the most powerful single individual in all the southeast from the time you became armed forces commander in the Southeast, in June 1941, until the time you left in October 1941?
A.- I had the executive power in the southeast, and on paper I had enormous powers, as the prosecution here has explained.
In actual fact, however, it was different, because subsidiary governments existed that had partly been informed from above and on the other hand were also formations of which I didn't know anything. And we must consider that I was stationed in Athens and these things took place in Belgrade, that the communications were bad and other means of communications were bad too, that I had a number of other tasks too so that it was quite possible that the knowledge of such occurrences did not reach me.
Q Field Marshal, I believe that we all agree that you were a very busy man and that you had many tasks in the Southeast, that you were the fourth or fifth ranking Field Marshal in the whole German army. Do you mean that a mere Obergruppenfuehrer of the SS was able to dominate you?
A I may say that on paper certainly, tut if one knows the situation and the prevailing conditions, one must realize that in times of tension that we lived in, that endeavors existed on the part of the SS to play their own part and I have already mentioned the example of the forming of a government and the example of the armed police. Therefore, if on the occasion of normal events where I should have been asked previously whether it was correct to nominate a new government in Serbia, if I have not been informed about such occurrences which are the most important thing that one can possibly imagine, if for days I don't know anything about such occurrences, it can be just as easily explained that I was not informed of a number of other occurrences and that in spite of all power which I had on paper, this SS Obergruppenfuehrer and Prussian State Councillor had done what he deemed advisable behind my back.
Q Field Marshal you protested to OKW against the formation of a government in Serbia without your previous approval. Isn't that correct?
A No. I did not protest to the OKW. Instead, I opposed the fact that State Councillor Turner or rather his superior, General Danckelmann, did not inform me. I did not make representation of the OKW. The OKW for its own part had asked me what had happened, and all I could say as a reply was that I myself had not been informed.
Q You were quite annoyed at having a government formed without your previous knowledge or approval, were you not?
A That is correct, of course.
Q Did you take any steps to correct that situation so that in the future you would be informed?
A Yes. At one time I issued a communication in which I emphasized that I expected in future at least to be informed about the most important events in Serbia in good time, and I called State Councillor Turner to Athens to see me and I told him my opinion to this effect.
Q When was that?
A That was on the 16th of September.
Q And in spite of the fact that you admonished him to keep you informed, on the 21st of September, 1941, just five days later, he is doing something else without having cleared it with you earlier. This report is dated the 21st of September, 1941, just five days after you and Turner had your altercation.
A That is correct.
Q Was it customary in the German army in 1941 for a Field Marshal to permit himself to be defied by an Obergruppenfuehrer in the SS?
A It is not the German army that is concerned here, but this Obergruppenfuehrer of the SS as an administration chief who was appointed by Goering in Serbia. One must not apply normal conditions of the German army in this case.
Q You say Turner was not subordinate to you?
A Turner was subordinate to me via Danckelmann. He was directly subordinate to his superior.
Q Will you turn to Exhibit 59 in Document Book 2? It begins on page 79 of the English, page 63 of the German, This exhibit is a series of reports and I am particularly interested in the daily report from the Commander of Serbia to you as Wehrmacht Commander Southeast, dated 17 September 1941. It is on page 98 of the English, and I believe on about page 82 or 83 of the German Daily report of the 17th of September, 1941. Do you have it?
A Yes.
Q This report is from the Commander of Serbia; in paragraph 6 it states: "Parts of the Belgrade male Jewish population transported to transit camp near Belgrade. Action continuing."
Do you recall anything of that event?
A It doesn't say here "action continuing."
Q Well, let's get -
A I can only repeat again that I don't know for certain whether I received that report or not. If I received it, I maintain the point of view that it is necessary in view of the security of the troops
Q Now will you turn to Exhibit 39 in that same document book 2, the very first document in that book? I am particularly interested in the report which appears on page 17 of the English and perhaps on page 17 of the German as well.
It is a morning report dated 29 July 1941 of the OKH operations department. There is a portion of the OKH report which deals with activities in the Southeast. Do you have it?
A Morning report of the 29th of August?
Q The 29th of July is the one I am referring to.
A Yes, I have got it now.
Q You will note paragraph I reads: "25 July, in Belgrade, Jewish attempts to burn German vehicles. One hundred Jews were shot to death." Have you any recollection, generally, about actions against Jews, reprisal actions of this nature?
A I am certain didn't receive that report because I wasn't in Athens at that time.
Q There was no information given to you on your return to Athens by your chief regarding activities taken by the Jews in reprisal actions taken against the Jews?
A It was a month later when I returned, and in the meantime the situation had become so tense that I was not prepared for this, and, generally speaking, I can only repeat that the Jewish problem in Serbia and Greece was no problem to me.
Q You mean the Jewish problem was not considered important enough for your chief to call to your attention the fact that Jews had attempted to burn German vehicles and in reprisal you were forced to execute one hundred of them?
A I don't think that he informed me in detail about this. Four weeks later, so much had accumulated and the whole situation had become so much tenser in view of the insurgent movement and in view of the endangering of the troops that I am sure he had other worries.
Q Field Marshal, when did you go to Crete? I think you said it was sometime in October, 1941.
A On the 8th of October.
Q 8th of October? Was Crete under your command and jurisdiction at that time?
A Yes.
Q How do you know that it was the 8th, rather than the 9th or the 10th of October when you went to Crete?
A Because I could ascertain that from a few notes which I made at that time.
Q Did you make a practice of keeping notes, or making a note of when you went on leave?
A I had a notebook, a diary, where I entered these notes of where I happened to be.
Q Did you ever make notes about what was happening in the area of your command? Things like the execution of hostages and the taking of reprisal measures?
A No, never. Those were merely notes of where I was located at that time. It was not a diary in that sense of the word. It was just a pocket diary where, under the date, I entered where I happened to be at that time.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will recess until 1:30.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess until 13:30.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom please find their seats.
The Tribunal is again in session.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: You may proceed.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q. Field Marshal, just before the luncheon recess, I asked you when in October you went to Crete?
A. On the 8th of October.
Q. Did you leave for Crete in the morning of the 8th or in the afternoon or just what tine of d p did you leave?
A. I can't recollect that for certain. But generally speaking I made the best possible use of the days, so I assume that it was during the early morning hours.
Q. When did you return from Crete?
A. During the course of the 11th in the afternoon.
Q. Do you recall whether you signed any orders after you returned on the 11th?
A. I can't recollect that today. After such an absence of four days, a lot of material mush have been submitted to me. First of all by the chief of staff, then by the Ia, and by other departments. It is impossible for me to recollect details now.
Q. Reports which you received from your subordinate units and then consolidated into reports of your own for OKW---about how much time would you say elapsed between the arrival of the report from a subordinate unit and the time when you took that report and made a consolidated report of your own for OKW?
A. That depends on the circumstance. I can't say that in detail.
Q. would there usually be a lapse of a day or two between the time you received reports from the field and the time when you sent out your own reports?
A. I can't say that, theoretically and generally speaking. That depends on the individual circumstance, on the type of report which I had received and on the type of report which I passed on.
Q. Now I believe you said earlier that the communications between Athens and Serbia were quite disrupted and that it often took several days for you to hear of events which had taken place in Serbia?
A. I said that the telephone communication were frequently disrupted between Belgrade and Athens.
Q. Would you turn to Exhibit No. 80 in Document Book 3. This is on page 4 of the English and page 3 of the German Document Book. Will you turn to about the third page of that exhibit. It begins on page 7 of the English and I believe on about page 5 or 6 of the German. It is a report from a company commander concerning the shooting of Jews on the 9th and 11th of October, 1941. On the second page of that report, there is paragraph nine, the details of the execution are listed and it states there that the first shooting took place on the 9th of October, 1941.
If the shooting did not take place until the 9th, I presume that the murder of the German soldiers for which the execution of the 2200 Jews was made in retaliation occurred some days earlier than the 9th of October, 1941. Would that presumption be correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You didn't leave for Crete until the 8th of October?
A. Yes.
Q. If the murder of 22 German soldiers had taken place a few days prior to the 9th, would you have been informed of that fact----of the loss of 22 of your men?
A. That can be assumed.
Q. The death of 22 of your soldiers was the largest loss which your troops had suffered in an event of this kind up until that time, was it not?
A. I can't say that way more. In any event, that occurrence was rather particular because these people were murdered in a terrible manner.
Q. From the first page of this report it appears that on the 8th of October, 1941, the shooting of 2200 Jews who were in the camp at Bel grade was ordered.
Did you have any information that Jews to the large number of 2200 were held an a particular camp in Belgrade?
A. No.
Q. When you returned from Crete on the 11th of October, did your chief inform you that 2200 Jews had been ordered executed in retaliation for the death of 22 of your men?
A. I can't remember that an longer but I would assume that he informed me. The other day I have already testified that I do not recall the details of this case either today any longer.
Q. Would you consider the execution of 2200 Jews in retaliation for the death of 22 of your men a conspicuously high retaliation ratio?
A. Yes.
Q. And if you had heard about this incident, would you have taken steps to see that it didn't happen again?
A. I assume that I would have done something about it.
Q. Do you recall whether you did do anything about it.
A. That too I do not remember, whether I did or didn't do anything.
Q. Field Marshal, I assume you would remember outstanding incidents which occurred during the time you were Armed Forces Commander Southeast particularly outstanding incidents. Is that correct.
A. I don't quite understand the question.
Q. I mean that one can't expect you to remember a lot of extraneous details about what occurred while you were armed forces commander southeast, but is your memory good enough to recall the large or particularly outstanding events which occurred during the time you were down in the Southeast?
A. I cannot say. One event I happen to remember, and another one I don't happen to remember. Generally speaking, I had an overall picture of all events, but details are a different matter. It is not within my own province, to decide that. That is the function of the troops as a body, and sometimes one remembers and sometimes one does not.
Q. Did an event like this, the execution of 2200 in retaliation for the death of 23 German soldiers occur frequently, or would you say that it is an exceptional circumstance?
A. It was certainly an exceptional case.
Q. But you still have no recollection of it?
A. I expressly stated that this is the only event which I recollected vaguely when I was refreshed in my memory here, about all of these matters.
Q. Will you turn to Exhibit 128, which is in Document Book V, and begins on page 102 of the English, and page 70 of the German; particularly will you turn to the daily report of the 9th of October, 1941 which is on page 117 of the English and I believe on about 85 or 86 of the German. It is the daily report from the Wehrmacht Commander Southeast for the 9 October 1941. This is the report of your 1-C officer, and the portion of the report dealing with activities in Serbia, and it states:
"In reprisal for 22 murdered men of the 521st Signal Regiment, 2000 communists and Jews are being shot to death."
That report sent out on the 9th of October, 1941.
DR. LATERNSER: Just a minute, Your Honors, I would like to have this report submitted to the interpreter for a retranslation.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Do you have the original document? It is NOKW 251; does the Secretary General have Exhibit 128 here? If not, could you bring Exhibit 128 into Court?
Field Marshal, the report which was sent out from your office on the 9th of October, is probably based on a report which you received a day or two earlier; isn't that true?
A. It can be assumed that these reports came in a day or two earlier, if not on the same day, since this is a teletype me have here.
Q. Now if the report which came in from Serbia, on which your report of the 9th of October is based, arrived in your office on the 7th or 8th before you went to Crete, you would have heard about the proposed execution of 2000 Communists and Jews in retaliation for the murder of 22 of your German soldiers, would you not?
A. But I did not hear it, because this report came in on the same day, which can, in this case, be clearly seen from the document.
Q. How can it be seen from the document, Field Marshal?
A. It reads, that the shootings of 2,200 Jews is about to be carried out. That is the first report of the 9th of October, which came to as from lower echelons to the Armed Forces Commander Southeast
Q. But this report to which I have called your attention just now does not indicate when it was received at your office as the Military Commander in Serbia does it?
A. This report here only shows when it left the office, but another report docs show when it was received.
Q. Perhaps we can have the court interpreter translate the portion which Dr. Laternser has requested.
MRS. SCHAEFFER: The sentence reads:
"As reprisal for 22 murdered men of the 521 Signal Regiment, 2000 Communists and Jews are being shot to death."
I would translate it the same way as the translation which we have in front of us. I do not know whether Dr. Laternser intends it to read, "will be shot to death" because then in German it should read, "werden erschossen werden" which means, "are being shot to death."
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q. Field Marshal, I believe you stated that the reference on certain of the documents to concentration camps in Serbia, referred merely to collecting camps, and they were not concentration camps in the sense of the word as we learned to think of them when we talk of concentration camps within Germany; is that correct?