Q. Did you order the reprisal measure reported?
A. No, I did not order this reprisal measure.
Q. Did you receive any knowledge of this reprisal measure?
A. No.
Q. General, can you make any comments on the question of whether, if this reprisal measure was carried out at all, it was only carried out because of the attacks mentioned in the report?
A. If this reprisal measure was really carried out then it was certainly not only in return for the attacks mentioned in the report. There were frequently warnings preceding this and the following surprise raids which were not retaliated preceded it as far as can be seen in the documents which have very many gaps.
On the 2nd November a car of the repair unit of the 2nd Cossack Division was attacked. The driver was killed and the assistant driver was wounded and no reprisal measure was taken.
In the night from the 2nd to the 3rd of November there was blasting of a railway bridge in Zabjak. In the night from the 1st to the 2nd of November there were destructions in the night on the railway line Bjelovar, I spell it, B j e l o v a r, Krizevci, I spell it, K r iz e v c i.
On the 3rd of November there was a surprise raid on a supply vehicle near Salasing, I spell it S a l a s i n g.
On the 30th of October a railway bridge near Spisc Bukovik, S p i s c -- new word B u k o v i k -- was blown up. There was also no reprisal measure for this.
On the 2nd of November a bridge near Razdejist -- I spell it R a z d e j i s t-- was destroyed. No reprisal measure was taken.
On the 30th of October there was a blasting near Popovaca -I spell it P o p o v a c a . No reprisal measure was taken.
On the 29th of October there was s surprise raid on a passenger train Bjelovar-Nrizevci in which the engine was damaged. No reprisal measure was taken.
On the 21st of October there was a surprise attack on the guard tower bridge in Le' enitz -- I spell it L-e-k-e-n-i-t-z.
On. the 29th of October there was a very serious act of sabotage on the express train Belgrade-Vienna near Ilica -- I spell it I-l-i-c-a. The engine and to carriages were derailed and the post carriage was destroyed and the train staff seriously wounded and one soldier slightly wounded. For 12 hours there was obstruction on the line and on this very important two-track stretch. No reprisal measure was taken.
On the 19th of October there was again a blasting near Popovaka in which 49 telephone poles were thrown down. No reprisal measure was taken.
All these numererous attacks for which no reprisal measures were taken are, if this reprisal measure took place at all, taken into account in the order.
Q. If this reprisal measure was every carried out, can it be assumed that the reprisal measure was carried out by units which were subordinate to you?
A. It can be assumed with certainty that the reprisal measure was carried out by Croatian agencies and that the division only passed on the report about the reprisal measure because in the Croatian area principal reprisal measure for sabotage acts were carried out by Croat authorities.
In the report it is also stated that the reprisal for a surprise raid on the police was carried out and I think that it is quite possible that the reprisal measure was carried out by the police; and the fact also speaks for this, that for attacks on the Police, reprisal measures were ordered and carried out by the police without the help of the troops.
Q. I show you from Document Book XVI page 23 of the English end pare 56 of the German, document NOKW-658, Exhibit No. 375. This is the teletype dated the 5th of November 1943. I draw your attention to figure "H".
Was the SS Police Sector Leader Osiek subordinate to the 69th Reserve Corps?
A. No, he was not subordinate to me.
Q. To whom was he subordinate?
A. He was subordinate to the representative of the Reichsfuehrer SS, Gruppenfuehrer Kammerhofer.
Q. Did you have any kind of responsibility for this measure?
A. No, this measure did not concern the corps at all.
Q. What was the purpose of this measure?
Q. From the teletype it can be seen that the purpose of the measure was to get back those German hostages which had been kidnapped from the German labor service camp Losipovak. There were 180 men from the labor service. The measure was successful and this can also be seen from the documents.
Q. I now show you from Document Book XVI, page 24 of the English, page 57 of the German document NOKW-658, Exhibit 375. This is a teletype dated the 6th of November 1943, page 57, paragraph 2-c of the German, page 20 of the English.
Can you comment on the question as to whether this incident contained under Figure 2-c ever took place at all?
A. This report in figure 2-c is not entered in the war diary. Therefore, it seems to me very doubtful whether it was carried out by troops of the corps.
Q. Witness, did you order this measure?
A. No.
Q. Did you hear anything about the measure before it was carried out?
A. No.
Q. Can you comment on the question of whether, if this measure was ever carried out at all, it was carried out by the 187th Reserve Division?
A. Well, while one cannot see this definitely from the report, there exists a very good possibility that Croat troops who were stationed in the area of the 187th Reserve Division but were not subordinate to it carried out this measure.
Q. Can you tell us anything about he question of whether this concerned a reprisal measure at all?
A From the very brief report this is not definitely clear, beyond doubt. There is a possibility that it concerned the execution of a sentence by court martial.
Q For which violation of the laws of war would the sentence of the court martial have been pronounced?
A I assume for plundering or for unauthorized possession of arms or explosives or something like that.
Q I now show you from Document Book SVI page 25 of the English, page 59 of the German, Document NOKW-658, Exhibit 375, this is a teletype dated 7 November 1943.
Was the reprisal measure reported under figure 2 ordered by you?
A No.
Q What were the military disadvantages resulting from the sabotage act which was the reason for this reprisal measure?
A There was a very serious effect; the engineer company, which was on the move, did not arrive in time. The engineer company was supposed to go to Brecko -- I spell it B-r-e-c-k-o. The bridge there was blown up.
Q Can you comment on the question of whether this reprisal measure was ordered by a division and carried out by a division which was subordinate to you?
A Even if the reprisal measure really had been carried out, then it can be assumed that it was not carried out by troops subordinate to me because sabotage acts were in principle carried out and ordered by the Croat authorities.
Q General, you meant reprisal measures for sabotage acts?
A Yes, reprisal measure.
Q Did you hear about the reprisal measure before it was carried out
A No, I had no previous knowledge of it.
Q I now show you from Document Book XVI page 26 of the English and page 61 of the German document NOKW-658, Exhibit 375. This is a daily report dated the 8th of November 1943 and I draw your attention to page 61, paragraph 3-a of the German.
Were you informed before the 21 hostages were shot?
A. No, I was not previously informed.
Q Could you have prevented the shooting of the 21 hostages?
A No.
Q Can you tell us anything more about it?
A I only received knowledge of it after it had been carried out.
Q Were the 21 hostages only shot because of the case mentioned in the daily report of the 7th of November 1943, the attack on the goods train between Lacacak and Martinoj?
A I assume that in any case surprise raids and sabotage acts which had taken place in the days preceding were included in this. Until the 8th of November there were 12 cases for which no reprisal measures were taken.
Q How can you bring your answer into line with the text of the daily report dated the 7th of November 1943 with the date of 8th of November?
A This is not a so-called original report which is exclusive but only a teletype which is set down in the briefest possible form in a telegram style and only deals with the last event, in a similar way as I stated yesterday with the example of an original report and a teletype.
Q Can you comment on the question of whether this is a reprisal measure for the killing of German soldiers?
A From the report dated the 7th of November, figure 2 to sub-section 3, this cannot be definitely seen. It has merely mention of a very considerable military damage and that the railway line has again been blocked It is possible that the losses of civilian personnel block leaders, train staff, et cetera, was not reported individually as was usual. In addition the preceding cases for which no reprisals had been taken were probably included.
For instance, there was a sabotage act on the 5th of November which resulted in 1 dead and 1 wounded. No reprisal measure was taken. On the 5th of November there was another sabotage act.
In the night from the 4th to 5th of November a railway bridge between Revisce -- I spell it R-e-v-i-s-c-e --- and Ivan Zapno -- I spell it I-v-a-n Z-a-p-n-o -this railway bridge was blown up and no reprisal measures were taken.
In the night from the 4th to the 5th of November there was sabotage on telephone lines. On the 4th of November there was another act of sabotage on the railway near Zagreb and again no reprisal measures were taken. In the night 5th to 6th of November there was a surprise raid on the railway station Jaksic -- I spell it J-a-k-s-i-c.
On the 6th of November there was an act of sabotage on the main railway line near Ivanierad -- I spell it I-v-a-n-i-c-r-a-d. Here one engine and two carriages were derailed. On tho 8th of November there was a surprise raid near Potnja -- I spell it P-o-t-n-j-a. This resulted in 7 dead, 11 wounded and 10 missing.
Just to mention a few examples, these surprise raids and sabotage acts were not retaliated.
Q Is there a possibility that the number of German casualties incurred during these sabotage acts and surprise raids was equal to the number of hostages killed?
A There is a definite possibility.
Q I now show you from Document Book XVI page 27 of the English, page 67 of the German, Document NOKW-658, Exhibit NO 375. This is a teletype dated the 12th of November 1943.
Is this teletype signed by you?
A No, it's not signed by me.
Q And I will now show you further in this connection from Document Book SIV, page 121 of the English and page 93 of the Germans, Document NOKW-075, Exhibit No. 358. Is the text of those two documents the same, and do they concern the same incident?
A Both are the same. The second case concerned is an excerpt, the text of which is the same as the Daily Report.
Q Please take Document Book XVI, on page 27 of the English and page 67 of the German, the one which you have just mentioned. Did you sign this document?
A No, I did not sign this document.
Q Is this document signed at all?
A It merely has a typewritten signature "Corps Headquarters LXIXth Reserve Corps" and a reference number.
Q Does this document contain any kind of initial by you?
A No, it contains no initial by me.
Q While you were in charge of the LXIXth Reserve Corps did you gain knowledge of the contents of these two documents?
A Well, I cannot say today with absolute certainty. At that time I was not with the Corps Staff, but I was taking part in a larger operation near Tuzla. T-u-z-l-a. This can be seen from the teletype submitted
Q Did you order this execution?
A No, I did not order the execution.
Q Can you remember whether you heard about the execution?
A No, I can't remember.
Q Do these two documents show beyond any doubt that the executions were carried out by troops of the 173rd Reserve Division?
A No, the two documents do not exclude the fact that the execution could also have been carried out by other troops who were in the area of the 173rd Reserve Division.
Q Can you tell us anything about the question of whether this reprisal measure was only carried out because of the surprise raids on Starokostovo and Fucukovo?
A No, the following surprise raids for which no reprisal measures were taken preceded this: On the 8th of November there was a surprise raid on an Engineer company near Potnja P-o-t-n-j-a. One officer was killed; six men were killed; seven were wounded; and ten were missing. No reprisal measure was taken. On the 6th of November -
MR. FULKERSEN: Excuse me a moment. Apparently the witness is referring to these various document books, and he's not giving the page number -- either in the English or in the German. I think it would be more helpful to the Prosecution and I think it would be more helpful to the Court if we knew to what he is referring.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Dr. Gawlik, you can instruct the witness to make reference by page and document book numbers. And I might say also at this point, Dr. Gawlik, that you might proceed a little more slowly with reference to the page numbers and document book numbers. The questions you may ask in the usual interrogatory tone of voice.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Would you please state the page numbers to which you are referring?
A They are always the page numbers of the previous reports to which I have referred. On the 6th of November a sabotage act -
Q Document Book XVI.
A Document Book XVI, page 24 in the English text. A transport train ran on to a mine, and two carriages were derailed.
On the 8th of November, also Document Book XVI, under Figure 3.
Q Which page, General?
A Page 63 in the German.
Q It's the same page in the English, your Honors.
AA railway sabotage act on the Durdevac-Koprivnica, D-u-r-d-e-v-a-c K-o-p-r-i-v-n-i-c-a, and several hundred meters of track were destroyed. No reprisal measure was taken. Then, there are others.
It can be assumed that these acts of sabotage and raids which preceded, and for which no reprisal measures were taken, were included and taken into account in this reprisal.
Q I will now show you, in connection with this, Document NOKW 648, Exhibit No. 374. I'm sorry -- it's NOKW-658, from Document Book XVI, page 3 of the English and page 6 of the German. This is the War Diary of the LXIXth Reserve Corps. Does this document show that this reprisal measure was not carried out by troops of the 173rd Reserve Division?
A One can certainly assume this for the sabotage act on the railway, but with regard to the other case near Vukovar the possibility is not excluded.
Q Can you give us any more details about this?
AAn SS transport train ran into a mine, and it can be assumed that the SS applied to the police or the Croat authorities who had this reprisal measure carried out.
Q To whom was the SS subordinate?
A One cannot see this from tho report here, but, at any rate, not to the Corps.
Q Could you have prevented this reprisal measure?
A No.
Q Who could have ordered and carried out this execution?
A It is not quite out of the question that these executions were ordered and carried out by the Croat police or by the German police.
Q Is this not in contradiction of the fact that this execution is included in the Daily Report of the 173rd Reserve Division?
A No, it's not in contradiction with this. The division included in their Daily Reports everything which occurred in their areas.
Q Witness, is there a possibility that the execution was carried out for the killing of German nationals?
A Yes, this possibility cannot be excluded, and there is particularly the probability that losses in escort personnel or other German civilian passengers who were also traveling in the train, occurred. These losses often did not appear in the report, but they were taken into account in the reprisal quota.
Q Is there a possibility that it was not only a reprisal measure for the sabotage attack near Sacpajora and for a surprise raid on a patrol near Vukovar?
A Yes, this is possibility--that sabotage acts and surprise raids which occurred previously were taken into account.
Q Well, then, how do you explain the text of the report here?
A The teletypes, as I have already mentioned, were always very brief, and they were set down in a telegram styles so the preceding cases for which reprisal measures were taken were not set down, but mostly only the most recent incidents were included. The other cases, however, have also to be included, as I explained yesterday from an example.
Q Is there a possibility that the number of killed German soldiers and civilians was at least as high as the number of hostages killed?
A Yes, this possibility exists.
Q I will now show you, again Document NOKW-7648, Exhibit 374, Document Book XVI, Page 3 of the English, Page 6 of the German. Did you sign this document?
A No, I did not sign for this document.
Q Did you obtain information of the entries in the War Diary for November?
A I don't think so. If I had seen them I would, in any case, have signed them and also checked them if there had been time.
Q The execution of hostages mentioned is included in Document NOKW-075, Exhibit No. 358, Document Book XIV, Page 121 of the English, and Page 93 of the German. Further, in Document NOKW-658, Exhibit No. 375, Document Book XVI, Page 27 of the English, and Page 67 of the German. Finally, in Document NOKW-648, Exhibit No. 374, Document Book XVI, English Page 3, and German Page 6.
Does the fact that this execution of hostages appears in all three documents show, without any well-founded doubt, that they actually took place?
A Well, that is a forced conclusion because one document was taken over into the other and copies, without its correctness having been checked.
Q And I will now show you the teletype dated the 15th of November 1943, from Document NOKW-658, Exhibit No. 375, Document Book XVI, Page 28 of the English, and Page 69 of the German. I draw your attention to Paragraph 3-d, in this teletype, dated the 15th of November 1943. Did you sign this teletype?
A No, I did not sign this teletype.
Q Is this teletype signed at all?
A No, it is not signed. There is just the usual comment "Corps Headquarters, etc."
Q Does the document submitted contain any Find of initials at all?
A No, there is also no initial to be seen on it.
Q Was it customary in your staff for teletypes and drafts to be initialed?
A If documents were submitted to me, then they were signed or initialed by me on principle, with the addition of the date. The Chief of Staff and the Ia also initialed each document on principle.
Q What do you conclude from the fact that this teletype bears no initials at all?
A From tins I conclude that this document was neither submitted to me nor to the Chief of Staff, nor to the Ia and, therefore, this document has no kind of probative value in my opinion.
Q Witness, I will now show you Document NOKW-075, Exhibit No. 358, in Document XIV, Page 119 of the English and Page 92 of the German. Is the Daily Report dated the 15th of November 1943, as contained in this document, identical with the Daily Report dated the 15th of November contained in Document NOKW-658, Exhibit No. 375, Document Book XVI? I'm sorry -- Document Book XVI, German Page 69, English Page 28.
A This here is an excerpt from the Daily Report of the Corps dated the 15th of November.
Q Are the texts of both documents the same?
A Yes, the texts of the documents are the same.
Q Can you comment on the question as to whether the execution mentioned in these two documents --- the execution of 13 hostages -actually took place?
A No, I really cannot say this any longer today.
Q Did you order this execution?
A No, not at all.
Q Can you remember whether you had previous knowledge of this execution?
A I can't remember this today.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: At this time, Dr. Gawlik, well take our morning recess.
(A RECESS WAS TAKEN)
Court No. V, Case No. VII.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please take their seats.
The Tribunal is again in session.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: You may continue, Dr. Gawlik.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q General, before the recess, we discussed the NOKW Document 075 which was Exhibit 358 on page 92 of the German and page 121 of the English and NOKW-658, Exhibit 375 in Volume XVI on page 28 of the English and 69 of the German. Can one see from these two documents with a clarity which excludes any doubt that the execution by troops of the 187th Division were carried out?
A No, one cannot see that with a hundred per cent certainty.
Q Who could it have been who ordered and executed the executions?
A It might have been, for instance, ordered by the police, by Croat troops or authorities and those agencies might also have carried them out, and those agencies were in no way subordinate to me.
Q For what reason would, in that case, the execution of 13 hostages be included in the daily report?
AAs I stressed frequently before, anything which occurs in the area of the LXIX Reserve Corps, even if it concerned troops not subordinate, was included in the daily report. A Croat unit near Okucani-to spell this word, O-k-u-c-a-n-i--for instance informed the 187th Reserve Division of the execution carried out by the Croat unit of those hostages.
Q Would you have been in a position to prevent the execution?
A No, in no case.
Q Can you give us any reasons?
A It was always after the execution that I was informed, as I said before. Moreover, the 187th Reserve Division which is alleged to have ordered the execution---I would not have had any possibility of giving orders to the Divisional Commander who was responsible for the Court No. V, Case No. VII.
execution and interfere in his sphere. He was responsible. He was the judicial authority and need not refer back to me first.
Q Does the possibility exist that the execution was carried out as a reprisal measure for the killing of German soldiers?
A This possibility does exist. Apart from the heavy military damage which occurred when the main railway line was interrupted, material damage also was incurred which could hardly be recompensated.
Q Does the possibility exist that in this execution we are not concerned only with the reprisal measure for the attack on the passenger train near Okucani?
A There again the previous cases for which no reprisal measure had been taken might well have been taken into account.
Q How can you explain the wording of the daily report of 15 November 1943?
A The possibility does indeed exist that this was not only a reprisal measure for the attack on the passenger train near Okucani, in accordance with the principle not to take reprisal measures for every case, but to wait until they had reached the limit in order then to take reprisal measures for previous attacks and surprise raids, for instance, no reprisal measures were taken. The destruction of a railway track near Virpocik--V-i-r-p-o-c-i-k--also some surprise attacks on the 9th and 11th, of which the daily reports unfortunately are not included here.
Q Does the possibility exist that the number of German soldiers killed in these surprise attacks was at least as big as the number of persons killed.
A The possibility exists. The report of 13 November is lacking to which reference is made. Also, previous sabotage acts and surprise attacks must have been included.
Q. I shall now hand you Document NOKW-658, which is Exhibit 375, in Volume 16, page 32 of the English, which is page 73 of the German. This is a teletype letter of 30 November 1943. Is this document which the Prosecution submitted signed by you?
A No.
Q Is this document signed by anybody?
A No.
Q Can you give us your comments on the problem whether you had knowledge of this document?
AAs my initials are not on it, one should assume that this daily report was not submitted to me. Perhaps I was absent, I don't know
Q About the reprisal measures reported under 2-C, namely the shooting of people suspected of belonging to bands, was that ordered by you?
A No, certainly not.
Q Can you tell us whether you know of this reprisal measure?
A I am afraid I can't tell you this with absolute certainty.
Q Can you tell us whether the 187th Reserve Division ordered and carried out this reprisal measure?
A It is highly likely that that reprisal measure was ordered and carried out by Croat troops, as the Croat authorities holding executive power as a rule took reprisal measures on attacks on railway lines. One should assume in this particular case that they also handled it. This is supported by the fact that this incident is not contained in the war diary. As far as I know, there were in Virpovec, (spelling) V-i-r-p-ov-e-c, there were only Croat troops stationed there, no German troops.
Q I shall now hand you NKOW-648 which is Exhibit 374, contained in Volume 16 on page 3 of the English and 8 of the German text. This is the War Diary of the Corps which on the page I mentioned speaks of reprisal measures taken in the area of the 173rd Division. Did you order that measure?
A No, I did not.
Q Can you tell us why this measure was taken against the four inhabitants?
A One cannot find that very easily from this entry. This incident is also contained in the daily report of 3 December 1943.
Q May I supplement this, your Honor, it is contained in Document NOKW-658, Exhibit 375, contained in Document Book 16 on page 33 of the English and page 81 of the German. It is the entry under paragraph D. Pray continue.
A We also have the remark Ugrinovci, (spelling) U-g-r-i-n-o-v-c-i, and in that daily report of the 2nd December, reference is made to a morning report of 30 November which the Prosecution unfortunately have not submitted.
Q Can you tell us who carried out these measures?
A There again one should assume that this measure was carried out by the Croat authorities who also ordered it because the Croat authorities holding executive power would as a matter of principle take reprisal measure for acts of sabotage committed against railway lines into their own hands.
Q Now, I shall hand you the daily report of 16 December 1943 contained in Document NOKW-658, Exhibit 375 in Volume 16 on page 35 of the English and page 87 of the German text. Did you sign that daily report?
A The daily report has not been signed. There is merely the usual remark at the end about the Corps Headquarters of the LXIX Reserve Corps.
Q In this connection, I shall hand you Document NOKW-073 which is Exhibit 373 contained in Volume 15 on page 75 of the English and page 102 of the German text. Are those two reports identical?
A Yes, both reports are identical. One report contains the additional remark "morning report", and that report has no signature at all, not even with a typewriter, nor has it a letter number.
Q Can you tell us whether you had knowledge of those documents?
A I no longer know that.
Q Did you order that reprisal measure contained in the document?
A No.
Q. Were you informed that it had been carried out?
A No.
Q Can you tell us whether this was a reprisal measure taken for the killing of German soldiers?
A I think this is highly likely. The morning report to which reference is made has not been submitted again.
Q Can you tell us what the ratio was between the number of German soldiers killed and hostages executed?
A I am afraid that is hardly possible as the morning report of 15 September is missing to which reference is made. Before that time, following cases occurred which were not retaliated. You can see that on the same page of this teletype letter, 87 of the German -- I am afraid I haven't got the English page number.
Q It is on page 35 of the English.
A There under paragraph D, three attacks which were not retaliated which occurred in the night from the 14th to the 15th against the main railway line in the Ludina area, Novosijek and Griese, and on the 16th of December losses are not listed because the relevant report is also lacking. Then there is a surprise attack mentioned which again was not followed by reprisal measures and occurred on the 8th of December. This may be found on page 85 of the German where it says that a hay Detachment at the road fork 7 kilometers west of Tervenka, two persons were killed, two were wounded, and four were missing.
Q General, what teletype letter is that, of what date?
A It is of the 8th of December.
Q Under what paragraph?
A It is under paragraph D. Then, there is on attack on 7 December which was not retaliated. This may be found on page 85 under paragraph E. It says there: "Losses cannot be ascertained as the details are still lacking," but no further reference is made in the later reports; and finally there is an retaliated act of sabotage which occurred on the first of December. This may be found on page 82 under "A", where it says that a goods train between Sesvete, (spelling) S-e-s-v-e-t-e, and Zagreb, which is the main railway line -- a train ran on a mine and was derailed, and two men were killed. In other words, there is a total of six attacks for which reprisal measures had not been taken; and in the case of two attacks, losses are contained in the report which has not been submitted, and in the case of the other two attacks there was a total of four killed, two wounded, and four missing.